Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 415

Monday, March 6 2000

• [name omitted]
• Re: YU Confiscates New York Times
• re:secular degrees
• Re: TIDE v. TuM - I Think I Got it
• MiSheberach for Cholim
• Re[3]: Just what is Torah uMada
• Re[2]: Just what is Torah uMada
• Re[2]: YU Confiscates New York Times
• Re: TIDE v. TuM - I Think I Got it
• Re: MiSheberach for Cholim
• Re: [name omitted]
• Dat U'Medina
• TIDE v. TuM - I Think I Got it
• Re: Dat U'Medina
• cloning
• Re[2]: Dat U'Medina
• Re: [name omitted]
• Re: Ten Commandments
• T'hillim
• Re: Avodah V4 #409
• Re: Ten Commandments
• Re[2]: [name omitted]

--- "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> wrote:
> This story appeared in a recent edition of the YU
> Commentator, 
> 
>                    According to [name omitted], 

Dear [name omitted]

You have no idea how annoying it is reading an article
this way. I don't really care who [name omitted] is or
who [name omitted] is but if you are doing this for
halachic reasons I don't believe the [name omitted]
meant this as any form of Lashon Hara.  It isn't
always Lashon Hara to say a qoute B'Shem Omro. I'm
sure when [name omitted] gave his interview to the
Commentaor, a publication designed to broadcast it to
as many readers as possible he did not mean to have
his [name omitted].   Besides I don't belive we
necessarily Paskin like the [name omitted].  As [name
omitted] points out in a sugya dealing with Lashon
Hara (I don't remember which Mesechta): If three
people know  information about [name ommitetd] even if
it is negative, then it is not Lashan Hara to repeat
it.   But even if you Paskin like the [name omitted],
in this instance when [name omitted] clearly knew that
this was meant for publication, it is certainly not
Lashan Hara.

NO (Name Ommited)




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In a message dated 3/6/00 5:49:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:

<< This story appeared in a recent edition of the YU Commentator, 
 and today's Jerusalem Post picked up on it (which is how I saw it). 
 Any comments? R. Rich?
 
 -- Carl
 
 Yeshiva Confiscates New York Times
  >>
I imagine you meant the other R' Rich but in any event.....
 
If the story is true (and obviously I only know what the Commie printed) then 
my alma mater is wrong and should make amends and not repeat the behavior.  
If the story is untrue, then the Commie is wrong and should make amends and 
not repeat the behavior.

  Interesting question -- how do the laws of lashon hara apply to 
institutions?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

BTW LA"D no institution or individual is perfect, we all need to continue to 
strive for perfection and not let ego etc. stand in the way of admitting / 
identifying faults to be worked on

Mentioning Rav Gifter's attendance at YU in a discussion of secular
degrees held by gdolim is a raya listor. He attended for a semester,
decided there was no value to him in it, and left.
Sadya N. Targum
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

In reflection here is a useful distinction:

Lfi Hirsch, nothing in Torah should have an external source, rather we can apply
Torah hashkofo towards all of culture.

TuM does not say that secular cutlure is on par with Torah in general, BUT it 
might allow a new way of understanding Torah based upon secular learning.

E.G.  When I learn about Hirsohima in History I can say, perhaps/probably the 
mahapeichas Sdom was soemthing similar something nuclear.  my secualr knowledge 
gives me a new insight into what the Torah means - in this case by kitor 
hakivshon - something we know call an atomic mushroom cloud.

Tuse TuM to me means getting a clearer insight into Torah concpets via "back 
dorr" secualr knowledge. It means that secular learning can influence our Torha 
understanding, soemthign Hirsch might have resisted.

It should not mean that learning the history of Hiroshima or the physics of ht 
a-Bomb is as important as learning parshiyos Lech Lecha and Vayeira

TuM allows for valued added enahcnment to the Torah via secualr learning.  I 
think R. Aaron Lichtensteitn noted that his degree in English literature added a
dimension of understanding and apprecaition he would have not gained via 
religious texts alone.

I think the Hertz Chumash is another example of TuM in this context, taking 
secular scholars and finding Torah insights.

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: TIDE v. TuM - I Think I Got it 

I had the impression that TuM is more learning the Torah and the 
Mada at the same time almost as equivalents, while TIDE says learn 
more of the Torah with less of the Mada, and only get seriously 
into Mada after you are much further along in Torah. That TuM would 
say "learn the kodesh and chol together from the 
beginning" and TIDE would say, "sit and learn exclusively for (five - 
I'm just throwing out a number) years after high school and then if 
you see that you are not cut out to spend your life in the Beis 
HaMedrash, go out and learn Mada.


Carl

FWIW in many German Congregations, a choleh mishebeirach is limited to 
life-threatening illnesses. I don't know the source or the reason, etc.

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

And this is how I meant it. TuM sees a positive benefit to a Torah society taht 
has frum dentists, while Torah only would prefer to have all talmidei chachomim 
and to use Gentile dentists, that would be their ideal paradigm.  At least so I 
was told at Ner Yisroel, that we should worry only about Torah and let others do
various other tasks.

TuM says that having a frum dentist is a positive, 

Torah only is saying if you're going to become a dentist, at least stay frum.

And I should metion that it was only 80-90 years ago that a frum dentist would 
not have been admitted to Troah only circles, it was considered a stiro minei 
uvei.

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


> 2) (this is also TIDE).  when my frum dentist gives me an 
antibiotic and 
> I ask can I take this on tisha b'av; he immediately consults his 
rav and 
> asks him a sh'eiloh.>>
> 
>         Neither of these,  IMHO,  have a thing to do with TuM. 
> 
> ===> accodring to torah only is a frum person ALLOWED to 
beocme a dentist? 

I'm not sure it's a question of "allowed." I think it's considered 
b'dieved and to be discouraged. But I don't think "Torah only" would 
consider someone who became a dentist to be oiver an issur.




-- Carl

I don't think it is either or.

v'chol beni bossr yikr'u vishmecho is something we can help promote now by 
"enlightening" the world to what Torah is, to sho hashem is. 

Then, when mashiach comes, they'll get it.  We are preparing the way by 
informing and influencing first, sort fo a hachanah

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

While it may be true that our mission includes a certain level of 
universalism, where do you see that in Aleinu?  Doesn't the 
second paragraph refer to the eschatological future
(may it arrive quickly) -- not the here and now?  It seems only the first 
(particularistic) paragraph is worded in the present tense.   So I don't 
see how you can "darshen" from Aleinu a mandate for universalistic
Tikkun Olam in the present.  (Also in the second paragraph it seems 
that  we are portrayed more as witnesses of the Tikkun Olam that 
**HaShem** will perform b'tiferes uzo.)

Maybe the metaphor "or la'goyim" is instructive here.  A light source can 
project light while remaining where it is and remaining its essential 
"self". It doesn't have to actively bring itself to anyone in order for its 
light to reach him.

Shlomo Godick

I hope this is not loshon hara...

YU espouses TuM, it doesn't always live up to it.

I can say that I do not always live up to my own principles either.  It doesn't 
mean the ideal is flawed, just human nature...

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com




______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: YU Confiscates New York Times 
 
  >>
I imagine you meant the other R' Rich but in any event.....

If the story is true (and obviously I only know what the Commie printed) then 
my alma mater is wrong and should make amends and not repeat the behavior. If 
the story is untrue, then the Commie is wrong and should make amends and not 
repeat the behavior.

  Interesting question -- how do the laws of lashon hara apply to 
institutions?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

BTW LA"D no institution or individual is perfect, we all need to continue to 
strive for perfection and not let ego etc. stand in the way of admitting / 
identifying faults to be worked on

In a message dated 3/6/00 9:06:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< 
 It should not mean that learning the history of Hiroshima or the physics of 
ht 
 a-Bomb is as important as learning parshiyos Lech Lecha and Vayeira
 
 TuM allows for valued added enahcnment to the Torah via secualr learning.  I 
 think R. Aaron Lichtensteitn noted that his degree in English literature 
added a
 dimension of understanding and apprecaition he would have not gained via 
 religious texts alone.
  >>
I don't see it as back door - EG as physics peels back the onion layers of 
subatomic matter, we gain added insight into maaseh breishit.(unless you 
believe that at the end of time science and revelation will not reconcile)  
How can we be anti-history if we introduced the notion of zchira to the world?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

On Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 07:49:52PM -0800, Harry Weiss wrote:
: While, I can see intellectualy see what say if the person hearing is 
: really not having tzaar, I believe what I hear from people like Carl and 
: from own feeling that our Misheberachs are working for others on our lists.

I'd be fine with it if it were just that people weren't sharing in the tza'ar.
I'd wonder why it works, but that's a different problem. Also, you could share
in the tza'ar of the statistics without feeling that of the individual. Look,
nebach, how many sick Jews there are.

The reason why I would like to see change is because you lost the kahal's
attention. Mi Shebeirach licholim, at least where I daven and have davened,
has become a shmooze break.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  4-Mar-00: Shevi'i, Vayakhel
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 4a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

On Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 04:18:48AM -0800, Harry Maryles wrote:
: You have no idea how annoying it is reading an article
: this way.

I'll go one step further -- I am not sure too many people want Avodah cluttered
up with articles. I also wonder about copyright laws.

How about a summary and a URL, with an offer to email copies to people who
don't have web access?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  4-Mar-00: Shevi'i, Vayakhel
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 4a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Here is a proposed model for a medinah, probably post-moschiach

Nasi - from Beis David.

Sanhedrin - chief legislative and chief judicial body.

Knesset/Parliament - a democratic/representaive body - not to make law - but to 
regulate taxes based upon the premise of "no taxation without representation".  
As I understand it, this was the  origianl intentions of the very first 
parliament, to levy taxes. 

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

From what I can tell, most yeshivos in the USA that allow for night college etc.
are practicing a form of TIDE, whether they do so consciously or not.  I would 
say Ner Yisrael, Chofets Chaim, Chaim Berlin, etc. all draw upon TIDE 
principles.

It is debated whether Hirsch meant TIDE to be temporary or permanent local or 
universal.  It certainly makes sense to me that in Western Cultures such as the 
USA, it is THE definitive way to go.  Eretz Yisrael is perhaps different, 
perhaps in a non-Gentile oriented society, Torah only makes sense, even perahs 
to Hirsch himself.

BEH, I will be laying a bit low for a week or so, so that I can finally finish 
my review of Marc Shapiro's book.

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com 

 

On 6 Mar 00, at 10:01, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> Here is a proposed model for a medinah, probably post-moschiach
> 
> Nasi - from Beis David.
> 
> Sanhedrin - chief legislative and chief judicial body.
> 
> Knesset/Parliament - a democratic/representaive body - not to make law
> - but to regulate taxes based upon the premise of "no taxation without
> representation".  As I understand it, this was the  origianl
> intentions of the very first parliament, to levy taxes. 

Doesn't a melech have the power to levy taxes? So that anything a 
"Knesset" does would be *on top* of what the melech does?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

someone asked me to post this.

> Tradition vol. 32 no. 3 Spring 1998:
> 1.  Human Cloning and Halakhic Perspectives -- John D. Loike and Avram
> Steinberg
> 2.  Cloning: Homologous Reproduction and Jewish Law -- J. David Bleich

As I see it, the Melech  le'ossid lovo may have some restrictions and become 
more like a Nossi,  Yechezkel hints at this (see haftara for parshas hachodesh).

Remeber, that this is just a model, there would no doubt be give and take in 
practice.

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
> 
> Knesset/Parliament - a democratic/representaive body - not to make law 
> - but to regulate taxes based upon the premise of "no taxation without 
> representation".  As I understand it, this was the  origianl
> intentions of the very first parliament, to levy taxes. 

Doesn't a melech have the power to levy taxes? So that anything a 
"Knesset" does would be *on top* of what the melech does?

-- Carl

On 6 Mar 00, at 4:18, Harry Maryles wrote:

> 
> 
> --- "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> wrote:
> > This story appeared in a recent edition of the YU
> > Commentator, 
> > 
> >                    According to [name omitted], 
> 
> Dear [name omitted]
> 
> You have no idea how annoying it is reading an article
> this way. I don't really care who [name omitted] is or
> who [name omitted] is but if you are doing this for
> halachic reasons I don't believe the [name omitted]
> meant this as any form of Lashon Hara.  It isn't
> always Lashon Hara to say a qoute B'Shem Omro. I'm
> sure when [name omitted] gave his interview to the
> Commentaor, a publication designed to broadcast it to
> as many readers as possible he did not mean to have
> his [name omitted].   

V'chi diltura ana? 

Besides I don't belive we
> necessarily Paskin like the [name omitted].  As [name
> omitted] points out in a sugya dealing with Lashon
> Hara (I don't remember which Mesechta): 

Bava Basra 39.

If three
> people know  information about [name ommitetd] even if
> it is negative, then it is not Lashan Hara to repeat
> it.   

Not so pashut. See Clal 2 in the Chafetz Chaim Hilchos Lashon 
Hara. In fact, when I first tried to learn the CC on a daily basis a 
friend whose father wrote a book about it told me, "if you start to 
fall behind, skip Clal 2. By the time the CC is done, there's not 
much of a heter left anyway." 

But even if you Paskin like the [name omitted],
> in this instance when [name omitted] clearly knew that
> this was meant for publication, it is certainly not
> Lashan Hara.

Actually that is not a simple shaila either. To say that just because 
something is published in the newspapers makes it not lashon 
hara to repeat it is not at all pashut, but it is not a sugya I have 
learned through yet, and therefore I hesitate to comment on it. 
There is a section in the Nesivos haChayim on the Chafetz Chaim 
which deals with precisely this issue.

The reason I cited the article this morning was because I wanted to 
know if any of you thought it was a policy shift at YU with respect 
to what types of publications they will encourage students to read. 
(I would not expect them to prohibit reading the New York Times 
outright - I don't think that accords with YU's hashkafa - but I 
thought it was possible that they had decided not to encourage 
reading the Times). I regarded what I was posting as being b'geder 
"nura bei planya." Reb Rich and Reb Rich obviously both feel it 
does not signify any sort of policy shift (correct me if I am wrong). 

For the record, I read the Times when I lived in New York, and I still 
read it when I am back there on business, and occasionally on the 
web.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

RD Glasner wrote:

>>Just to quibble slightly, I don't think that when the Torah SheBe'al Peh tells
us that Lo Tignov means not to kindnap it comes to exclude other forms of 
stealing for which one would not be subject to the death penalty from the 
category of geneiva. The general heading of geneiva subsumes other particular 
categories, including gezeila.>>

I would agree with you on the drash level by which R. Sa'adiah Gaon and many 
others tried to derive the 613 mitzvos from the 10 dibros.  On any other level I
think you are incorrect.  Chazal were establishing that pshat of the pasuk 
refers to kidnapping.

>>Although one could read Rashi otherwise, I think it is a davar pashut that the
aseret ha-dibrot were providing the most general subject headings without 
excluding any particular applications. Similarly when the Torah she-ba'al peh 
tells us that Shemini Atzeret is a regel bifneit atzmah, it cannot possibly mean
that it is not also part of the general holiday of sukkot, otherwise the 
Biblical name would have made no sense at all.>>

I think you need better proof for your big chidush than the biblical name of the
holiday.


Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

RS Katz wrote:

>>1. Would their time not be spent more profitably learning?
2. Is there value to read these t'hillim without understanding?>>

There is an appocryphal ma'aseh about R. Chaim Volozhiner (or the Netziv?) who 
found a bachur saying Tehillim and told him he should be learning.  The bochur 
then quoted the gemara that David Hamelech asked Hashem to consider someone who 
says Tehillim as if he were learning gemara.  R. Chaim responded "But does the 
gemara say that David Hamelech was answered?"

I also recall seeing a ma'aseh about the Beis HaLevi (in The Soloveitchik 
Heritage) that he came to shul (on Erev Rosh HaShanah?) and found rich people 
saying Tehillim along with the poor.  He objected to this, saying that everyone 
has a different derech and the rich people, who give a lot of tzedakah, should 
not be trying to fit into the poor people's derech of saying Tehillim - ad kan. 
PERHAPS the same could be said about bocherim saying Tehillim instead of 
learning.  [I remember once, right after I left yeshiva, talking to someone from
shul about waiting in line at the DMV.  He said that it was a perfect time to 
catch up on his Tehillim.  I was shocked that he didn't view it as a perfect 
time to learn gemara.]

Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

I'm assuming this was said sarcastically.  Or are you intentionally mimicking 
the 19th century German Reform attitude?


RD Finch wrote:

>>TuM, TIDE, whatever: if Orthodoxy can concoct a rationale to allow observant 
Jews to study the culture around them -- to try to really understand it -- then 
fewer of us will suffer the isolated, defensive, and sadly ignorant worldview 
that has marginalized our impact on other Jews and society in general, and has 
victimized us with cynicism and self-pity. Why to we seem to want to stretch out
our wretchedness well beyond the era of the corrupt European societies that 
fostered it? There is no Pale here. The ghetto is gone. People worship Sammy 
Sosa, not the Kaiser.>> 

>>Hey, Judaism is a *happy* religion. It's about Joy. It's about our obsession 
with the greatness of HaShem. So . . . let's loosen up and BE happy. Frum Jews 
living in America who actually know about America know that they can live here 
with that happiness. Others, to whom an insular rabbinate dictates what they can
and can't learn, perhaps aren't that sure.>>

>>It's a shame when we are deluded by the walls of ignorance we have built by 
ourselves in the name of halacha. If we can't see through it walls, it's our 
fault. Even Hitler can't be blamed for that one.>>

On Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 11:17:34AM -0500, gil.student@citicorp.com wrote:
: I would agree with you on the drash level by which R. Sa'adiah Gaon and many 
: others tried to derive the 613 mitzvos from the 10 dibros. On any other level
: I think you are incorrect.  Chazal were establishing that pshat of the pasuk 
: refers to kidnapping.

I vaguely remember a d'var Torah that connects the two layers with the two
sets of trop. Ta'am elyon represents the means of punctuating the pesukim
to describe 10 prinicipls/categories that include all of halachah. Ta'am
tachton breaks the statements down into a list of specific mitzvos.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  4-Mar-00: Shevi'i, Vayakhel
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 4a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

I cannot say for sure what it means.

Despite that I do it a lot, yet it is still difficult to determine policy based 
upon anecdote.

Let me give an illustration:

Circa 1976, the "moonies" were giving out tickets to Yankee Stadium. I took 
dozens, not so hatt I could attend,  rather so that I could get them out of 
circulation

I guess there might have been guilty of gneivas daas, in that my intention was 
quite different than was apparently my motive.

Reb 
Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Reb Rich and Reb Rich obviously both feel it does not signify any 
sort of policy shift (correct me if I am wrong). 

For the record, I read the Times when I lived in New York, and I still 
read it when I am back there on business, and occasionally on the 
web.

-- Carl

*********************


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