Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 412

Saturday, March 4 2000

• Re: Re[2]: Just what is Torah uMada
• humor alert
• T'hillim
• Re: Ten Commandments
• Re: T'hillim
• Re[4]: Just what is Torah uMada
• Re: humor alert
• Ten Commandments - humor alert
• Re[2]: Tephillah laMelech
• Re: T'hillim
• Re: T'hillim
• Dat U'Medina
• Aseret HaDivorim

On Fri, 3 Mar 2000 12:07:51 -0500 <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com> writes:

<< In the 19th century Science was seen as anti-thetical to Torah.
 
The open, ready, and willing attitude for a frum yid to learn - even
master - science - IS one of the essential chidushim of TuM.>>

	TIDE.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 12:07:45 -0500
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: MD Tendler, PhD -humor alert

<<Anf fwiw one LOR said  "When Rabbis started becoming doctors yiddishket
became sick!" <smile>>>

	In the pre-Purim spirit,  this reminds me of the story of an old woman
from Poland who finds herself living in Germany.  She has a "shaila" on a
chicken and goes to the Rov.  She rings the bell and the prim,  uniformed
maid answers; add your own ethnic accents: 

	 "Is the Rov home?

	"Herr Doktor is in"

	"I asked if the Rov is home"

	"Herr Doktor is in"
	
	"I need the Rov,  not the doctor"

	"Herr Doktor is in"

	"Lady,  this chicken is dead,  it doesn't need a doctor any more!"

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

The Skokie Yeshiva (Jewish University of America) in this week's l'kutei
p'shatim advertised for people to submit names of cholim for their
t'hillim project. High School boys devide and say the entire sefer
thillim twice a day on behalf of the cholim.
Questions:
1. Would their time not be spent more profitably learning?
2. Is there value to read these t'hillim without understanding?

Gil Student wrote:

<<<
Remember that based on the Torah SheBe'al Peh we consider "lo signov" to refer 
to kidnapping.  Christians don't.
>>>

Just to quibble slightly, I don't think that when the Torah SheBe'al Peh
tells us that Lo Tignov means not to kindnap it comes to exclude other forms
of stealing for which one would not be subject to the death penalty from the
category of geneiva. The general heading of geneiva subsumes other particular
categories, including gezeila. Although one could read Rashi otherwise,
I think it is a davar pashut that the aseret ha-dibrot were providing the
most general subject headings without excluding any particular applications.
Similarly when the Torah she-ba'al peh tells us that Shemini Atzeret is a regel
bifneit atzmah, it cannot possibly mean that it is not also part of the general
holiday of sukkot, otherwise the Biblical name would have made no sense at all.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov

On Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 12:36:12PM -0600, Steve Katz wrote:
: 2. Is there value to read these t'hillim without understanding?

And is there value to the choleh, when all the person saying tehillim knows
is a name? I mean, he'd be saying the same capitl whether or not the 21st
name was on his list, he doesn't share in the choleh's tza'ar, I don't
get it.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  3-Mar-00: Shishi, Vayakhel
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 3b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

TuM draws upon TIDE, no doubt

fwiw afaik, Revel was doing TuM in the USA before TIDE was imported.

 wordlwide I conced that TuM did not mehcadiesh this attitude.  afaik both TuM 
and TIDE were rejected by and large by the yeshivishe velt before WWII.




______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Just what is Torah uMada 
Author:  Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com> at tcpgate
Date:    3/3/2000 1:11 PM


On Fri, 3 Mar 2000 12:07:51 -0500 <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com> writes:

<< In the 19th century Science was seen as anti-thetical to Torah.

The open, ready, and willing attitude for a frum yid to learn - even 
master - science - IS one of the essential chidushim of TuM.>>

	TIDE.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

unless a pathologist was neeeded!


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: humor alert 
Author:  Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com> at tcpgate
Date:    3/3/2000 1:25 PM


> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 12:07:45 -0500 
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: MD Tendler, PhD -humor alert

<<Anf fwiw one LOR said  "When Rabbis started becoming doctors yiddishket 
became sick!" <smile>>>

	In the pre-Purim spirit,  this reminds me of the story of an old woman 
from Poland who finds herself living in Germany.  She has a "shaila" on a 
chicken and goes to the Rov.  She rings the bell and the prim,  uniformed 
maid answers; add your own ethnic accents: 

	 "Is the Rov home?

	"Herr Doktor is in"

	"I asked if the Rov is home"

	"Herr Doktor is in"
	
	"I need the Rov,  not the doctor"

	"Herr Doktor is in"

	"Lady,  this chicken is dead,  it doesn't need a doctor any more!"

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Nu, so how come nobobdy quoted Cecil B. DeMille's shito? or Charlton Heston's?

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

fwiw R.  Nobel of Frankfort composed a post WWI nusach - nisa levoveinu - which 
removed the ruler and focused upon the medinah.

This nusach  -foudn in  the Sfas Emes Roedelheim siddur - describes the broken 
German plight of post WWI and is not so fitting to the triuuphant USA.  In fact 
the use of the  possuk from Eichah as its opening was probably arpopos to the 
low morale in post-WWI Germany.

However, the idea of praying for the medinah - instead  of for an indiviudal 
holding the seat of power -  sounds in synch in  our post-monarchistic world.

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Tephillah laMelech 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    3/2/2000 1:13 PM


On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 06:35:36PM +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote: 
: So then how do you teitch the Mishne in Avos ("hevei mispallel 
: b'shloma shel malchus").

Not to lost sight of my original question, this is only one of the two 
issues. The other is the change of nusach. Unless you could argue, as the 
M"A apparantly would, that the minhag was /wrong/, what right do we have 
to just drop something from the siddur?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 29-Feb-00: Shelishi, Vayakhel 
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 2a 
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 3/3/00 2:06:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, micha@aishdas.org 
writes:

<< 
 And is there value to the choleh, when all the person saying tehillim knows
 is a name? I mean, he'd be saying the same capitl whether or not the 21st
 name was on his list, he doesn't share in the choleh's tza'ar, I don't
 get it.
 
 -mi
  >>
What about communal misheberachs on shabbos? 

Shabbat shalom
Joel Rich

On Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 02:16:11PM -0500, Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
:> And is there value to the choleh, when all the person saying tehillim knows
:> is a name? I mean, he'd be saying the same capitl whether or not the 21st
:> name was on his list, he doesn't share in the choleh's tza'ar, I don't
:> get it.

: What about communal misheberachs on shabbos? 

Yes, I've asked the same question about those. Three observations I've made
elsewhere (the first is your question):

1) R' YB Soloveitchik explained the concept of the "Mi shebeirach" as a means
of changing the personal problem into a communal one. Saying "mi shebeirach"
without sharing the person's pain would therefore have limited value.

2) I noticed to that the dynamic of Mi Shebeirach changed. It used to be a means
for a minyan to express their worry about someone close to them. Now, with
the advance of communications, it's more about the unity of the Jewish people.
I don't think this shift is necessarily a bad thing, but it is a real change
in what Mi Shebeirach means to us.

3) One idea that may whittle down the list to the point where people might
actually stay quiet. One is not permitted to make requests in Shabbos davening,
which is why we don't say the middle 13 b'rachos of the normal Amidah on
Shabbos. R' YB Soloveitchik explains that Mi Shebeirach is except from this
rule ONLY if the sick person is in a life-threatening situation.

So, before you give the gabbai that name, think to yourself: Would I drive
this person to a hospital to get immediate help? If the answer is "No", RYBS
wouldn't permit a Mi Shebeirach either.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  3-Mar-00: Shishi, Vayakhel
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 3b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

I've read in recent posts some comments that Israel should become
fully democratic and separate religion from statesmanship.  This cry
is usually heard by either Chiloniim or from extreme Chareidim here in
Israel.  Both sides don't want a jewish state - one side b/c judaism
is anathema to them, the other b/c a state without Mashiach as it's
king is anathem to them.

The others are those who live in exile and don't understand what a
Jewish State is.

So here are some changes that will come about in this non-jewish
state:

a) Army

The army by-law is kosher, under hashgachah of the army rabbinate.  If
there is separation of state and religion, the army will no longer be
kosher.
Army burial will no longer be acc. to halakhah
There will no longer be state-army-Pesach Sedarim for soldiers.
A jewish soldier will no longer be able to sleep in a Sukkah on
Sukkot.
The laws covering Chilul Shabbat will be cancelled.
Laws enabling soldiers to daven in minyan will be cancelled.

And so on and so forth.  So if you are complaining now about frumkeit
in the army, just think of a jewish army, fighting for jewish lives a
priori no keeping Torah in any way, shape or form.  Consider the
cancellation and closing down of Hesder Yeshivot, Mechina Yeshivot
etc.

b) Public transportation.  For all that this is a painful issue,
public transport is still limited on Shabbat.

c) Public Kashrut.  State dinners are kosher in Israel, this will be
stopped immediately on separation of religion and state.

d) Te'udot Yochasin.  If you think that C and R weddings/divorces are
a headache now, wait and see what happens when we have to have private
listings of  jews in Israel...

e) Legal Lacunas  By law, in Israel, if there is a legal lacuna, and
Jewish Law (i.e. halakha) addresses the issue, the judges can rule
based on jewish law.  This law would leave the books, making issues of
Archa'ot even more difficult than they already are.

f) All religious schooling will have to be private.  You were just
complaining about how expensive jewish day schools.  Well, if you
separate religion and state all religious people in Israel will be
forced to privately finance jewish education.

g) Yeshivot will close down by the hundreds.  There are hundreds of
yeshivot who base their finances on what they receive from the state
with private funding being their second source and not the primary
source of funding.  All these Yeshivot will have to close.

h) Schuls, Mikva'ot, Adult Judaica education will all be closed down,
as they are all dependant to some extant on state funding.

i) In Jewish schools in Israel it will be forbidden to learn Torah as
it is contrary to sep. of State and religion.  If you think the
situation is bad now, think what the results would be.

j) Any hopes of organizing State Shmitta (which is in the works) will
go down the drain.

I could go on, but I hope this will start to bring home both the
blessing of finally after aprox. 2000 years we finally have a Jewish
Medina, and that despite all the teething problems (hey, the State is
only an infant in historical terms) it is giving us the time to once
again learn the sugiyot connected to running a jewish state, and to
find solutions for them.

Shavu'a Tov,

Shoshana L. Boublil

<<This touches on the biggest difference. We have 10 devarim/dibros, not 10 
of the mitzvos. There isn't supposed to be a one-to-one mapping between 
dibrah and "commandment".>>

Using the count of the Rambam the "Ten Commandments" yield 13 Mitzvot (this 
includes "Lo TiTaveh" from VaEthchanan).

Shavua Tov,

Moshe

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