Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 408

Thursday, March 2 2000

• Chinuch along multiple tracks
• test
• Chilonim/Haredim, Problems and Solution
• Re: TIDE v. TuM - I Think I Got it
• Re: test
• Re: secular studies and mechanchim
• Re: Tephillah laMelech
• Re: Study of History
• Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef and halachic status of the Golan
• Re: Chinuch along multiple tracks
• Re: Principles For Sale - Contact Shas
• Re: Tephillah laMelech
• Re: Learning Schedule
• Re: Study of History
• Re: Women as Guests
• Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef and halachic status of the Golan
• Re: Chinuch along multiple tracks
• Re: Study of History
• Re: Principles For Sale - Contact Shas
• Re: Tephillah laMelech

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 08:45:41 -0600
> From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
> Subject: Re: Chinuch along multiple tracks

<<AIUI, what RSRH was talking about........>>

	AIUI?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

test
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

> Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 22:23:00 -0500
> From: Isaac A Zlochower <zlochoia@bellatlantic.net>
> Subject: Chilonim/Haredim, Problems and Solutions
 
<<I'm curious about the absence of any protests to the citation of a
speech by a leading rosh yeshiva in which he is alleged to have called
the head of a leading Orthodox school, "a soneh Hashem">>

	And I am curious why this suddenly occurred to you. The speech in
question was delivered something like 3-5 years ago;  I don't recall
exactly.  It was protested at the time.  What brought this back to the
fore?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 08:37:30AM -0600, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer wrote:
: Another difference between TIDE & TuM: In a true TIDE school, secular
: studies will be taught by a Yerei Shomayim even if he is not the best
: scholar available....

So I would have thought. It fits my shitah that TIDE means that DE can
get derived kedushah, not that it is inherently kadosh. But...

According to legend, RSRH had a frum secular teacher he told not to wear a
yarmulka to work because the norm for showing respect in a classroom was
(and is) a bare head. Implied in this story is that the teacher was unique
in being someone who normally did wear a yarmulka.

I invite our Yekkes (except for RYGB who apparantly assimilated, r"l) to
correct my naarative. I used the word "legend" intentionally.

Speaking of derived kedushah, who was it who said that secular is called
"chol" because it has a beis kibul for kedushah?

: a true TuM school, secular studies will be taught by the most outstanding
: scholar available, even if he is an Apikores...

Not just secular studies. In my day, YU had tinikos shenishbi'u ("nebech an
apikoris") teaching the borderline courses, such as Hebrew and Jewish History.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 29-Feb-00: Shelishi, Vayakhel
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 2a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 3/2/00 4:15:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

> test

I think this is a great topic of discussion :-)

Al Tnasu :-)

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

R. Jordan wrote:

>>Who at RIETS has a PHD, besides R' Tendler?>>

I thought R. Tendler was an MD.  R. Michael Rosensweig and R. David Horowitz are
two roshei yeshivah who have PhDs.  If you start looking at other faculty you 
quickly find many more Rabbi Doctors.

Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 08:29:09PM +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
: Well, he is the President pro tempore of the Senate.... And who 
: else would you say it for in the States? Congress?

Yes. Both houses. And perhaps the governor, as he has the power over dinei
nefashos.

: But I think that's exactly why (in my experience at least) most 
: shuls in the States do not say it...

Is it a US thing? I remember that it was said for the Queen when I was in
London. Although the Queen has far less power than the President. The PM
would be a better choice. And in Israel, of course, there's a replacement
tefillah -- which would fulfill the mishnah, but doesn't explain changing
the nusach.

: note that the language of the Mishna is "shloma shel MALCHUS." 
: (Okay, admittedly at the time of the Mishna there weren't many 
: other forms of government).

Wasn't Athens still a democracy? (Or at least ruled by "The Five Thousand"?)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 29-Feb-00: Shelishi, Vayakhel
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 2a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 01:31:09PM -0500, Eric Simon wrote:
: B'nei Yisroel did not realize that Miriam was outside of the camp for seven
: days?

I'm missing your question. Why would they know? If you're in a crowd of
2-3 million people, would you wonder why you didn't bump into one of the
notables for a week?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 29-Feb-00: Shelishi, Vayakhel
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 2a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:19:00PM +0200, BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
: Indeed, Rav Ovadia Yosef does NOT accord any halachic status of Eretz
: Yisrael to the Golan. I believe this was also the shitta of Rav Goren.

Why not? It had such status in David haMelech's day.

-mi

On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 04:09:16PM -0500, Gershon Dubin wrote:
: 	AIUI?

As I Understand It. IOW, LAD. (In other words, lefi aniyas da'ati.)

AIUI and IOW are old (for i'net) email acronyms. I've seen LAD on other
Jewish lists.

-mi

On 2 Mar 00, at 14:16, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> << Not. IMNSHO, there is no justification for a "State of Israel" unless 
>  it is a Jewish State. If it's not a Jewish State, how do we justify 
>  "kicking out the Arabs?" (Assuming we ever did that - the world 
>  obviously thinks we did). How do we justify all kinds of special 
>  privileges for coming here that are only available to Jews? Take 
>  religion out of the State and we become k'chol hagoyim and have 
>  no more right to be here than anyone else. >>
> 
> I don't think you can justify such things, other, perhaps, than the Law of 
> Return.

How do you justify the Law of Return if this is not a Jewish State? 
How do you explain giving Jews and only Jews an unfettered right 
to immigrate here without any quotas whatsoever, to decide to 
come at any time on a moment's notice? How do you justify all the 
tax breaks and other benefits that go with that right and only go to 
Jews? If it's not a Jewish State, and instead it's a Democracy, then 
we have to treat everyone equally - why should Jews be different? 
Why don't we then get rid of the Law of Return altogether? Or apply 
it equally to "Palestinians" who can prove that they had ancestors 
here within the last x hundred years (or who claim they had)? The 
answer of course is that if this is not a Jewish State then the Law 
of Return would be the first thing that would have to go, not the last.

> I don't think the Israeli Gedolim are necessarily after money and power. But 
> when they are forced to be political, they must perforce play politics. Their 
> motives may be pure. The "practical" steps they must pursue are far from 
> pure. And if they don't stand for purity, who will?

You don't think there are honest politicians in the world and that 
there never have been? You must have grown up post Watergate, 
because I can tell you that when I was a kid there were honest 
politicians in the States (let alone in Israel). My congressman 
growing up was a Jesuit Priest and believe me he was as clean as 
a whistle. You want me to name honest politicians in Israel? 
Yitzchak Shamir is honest. Menachem Begin z"l was honest. And 
they're not the only ones.

If they could be honest, why do you think the Gdolim aren't or 
cannot be? Do you think chas v'shalom that RSZA was corrupted 
by politics? That RYSE is corrupted by politics? That the SE was 
corrupted by politics? That R. Arye Levin was corrupted by 
politics? That the Chazon Ish (who negotiated the "status quo" 
regarding religion opposite Ben Gurion) was corrupted by politics? 
Chas v'Shalom!

>  <<Do you think that the Gdolim in America don't tell their 
>  constituencies how to vote?>>
> 
> Tell, maybe. It is only when the followers of American Gedolim succumb to the 
> cult of personality that the followers necessarily follow such commands. 
> There is a tradition here of free thought.

There's a tradition of free thought here too. There are secret ballots 
here too. And there are (I assume) fruhm Jews who disregard how 
the Gdolim tell them to vote. If there are less, it is only because the 
issues here are existential to someone who is fruhm. Will the 
government spend money on schools for my children or on 
subsidies for bankrupt kibbutzim? Will the government promote 
Yeshivas or Palestinian poets? Will the government pay for 
Avraham Fried concerts or Batsheva Dance Company pritzus? 
When those are my choices, I don't need the Gdolim to tell me 
how to vote. I'm smart enough to figure it out for myself, and so are 
all of my neighbors. With all the talk about Chabad's "Bibi is good 
for the Jews" campaign in 1996, and how that won the election, it 
had very little influence on the fruhm vote - that was overwhelmingly 
going to Bibi anyway. I think it had more of an influence on the 
undecided traditonal vote. On the people who would not listen to 
Daas Torah telling them how to vote.

>  > I like the American system better. In the U.S., the system enables one to 
> be 
>  > any sort of Jew he or she wants to be without secular political 
> gamesmanship. 
>  > Freedom of religion is sacrosanct. No place on earth has even been as good 
>  > for the Jews as the U.S. -- including Israel.
>  
>  <<Only someone living in America could make a comment like that.>>
> 
> Maybe. Living in America promotes positive comments like that. Living in 
> Israel promotes cynicism and despair. That's emes -- you know I'm right.

I was as cynical in America as I am today. If anything more so. 
Freedom of religion in America is sacrosanct - until it blocks your 
job advancement. Until the day a partner at your law firm (a 
"Jewish" partner named Christianfield no less - the chozer b'shaila 
at the firm used to joke with me about how the guy even had Christ 
in his name) calls you into his office on a Friday and suggests that 
you change religions so you can stay late to finish his work for 
him. Until you figure out why you have had nothing but library 
assignments for the last two years, and are the most senior lawyer 
in the firm who has never been to the printer. Until you have to go 
to work without a yarmulka because you have to "fit in" with the 
goyim, and you need the gadol hador to write a tshuva permitting it, 
because there are so many fruhm Jews who go to work without 
yarmulkas that saying anything else would be b'geder gzeira 
she'ain ha'tzibur yachol la'amod bo. Until you have to "fit in" by 
going to a treif restaurant and have them pay the fixed price of $85 
so that you can feel even more uncomfortable eating a fruit salad 
while they're eating their Beef Wellington. Until you have to eat 
lettuce and a tomato at a treif restaurant on a job interview because 
you can't tell them you keep Kosher and they decided to go 
Japanese. Until you get screamed at by a maniacal partner, 
because you actually left the office an hour and a half before 
Shabbos without asking his permission and sent the work he gave 
you at noon Friday that he wanted "ASAP" back with the cab that 
took you home to New Jersey. Sacrosanct? Tell that to my friend 
with smicha who found out he was POP'ed when the memo landed 
on his desk, when everyone else that happened to was warned not 
to come to work that day. Tell that to the guy who was told "not 
enough people saw your work" when he asked why he was POP'ed 
six months after he was told that he had more reviews than anyone 
else in the department. Tell that to the one guy in my firm who had 
the guts to wear a yarmulka to work, who fifteen years later is on a 
track to nowhere in the same firm - a permanent employee with no 
opportunity for career advancement. 

Freedom of religion is sacrosanct in America until the Almighty 
Buck calls. Buck is sacrosanct in America. He is the only thing 
that is sacrosanct there. And if I keep this up, I am going to start 
calling it Amreika just like my friend on mail jewish and tachlis 
does....

> << Funny - didn't they say the same kinds of things about Germany in 
>  the 20's and 30's?
>   >>
> 
> No. Germany was never democratic, never a melting pot, never egalitarian. 
> German Jews who aspired to be "German" pursued an unreachable goal. American 
> Jews don't aspire to be American. Whether they wish it or not, they *are* 
> American, just like all the other polyglot minorities over here who look and 
> act even more foreign to the now-discarded Leave-It-To-Beaver WASP media 
> ideal. Nowadays American popular culture really does embrace diversity. 

Sure it does. They even have blacks on television. Some of my 
best friends are Jews. Ellen Degeneris became a star as soon as 
she stepped out of the closet. Sure there's cultural diversity, as 
long as every show on TV involving Jews has them intermarrying 
because that's how we get diverse, right? 

Funny how EVERY President of the United States is descendant 
from a charter member of the Daughters of the American 
Revolution. Every last one of them. I couldn't believe it either until 
we went to their headquarters on a visit to Washington (1994 or 
1996 - I forget which) and they showed us. Every last President of 
the United States from George Washington (the first philandering 
President) to the Philanderer who occupies the White House today 
is descended from someone who was a DAR member. Real 
cultural diversity there. 

> Orthodox Jews, even the most RW, are free here, although they may be too 
> guilty or confused by that fact to feel it or to admit it.

No. Orthodox Jews who don't have to go out into the non-Jewish 
world to support themselves, who work for "Jewish" companies and 
who have fruhm bosses delude themselves that they are free. 
Orthodox Jews who have to go out into the non-Jewish world to 
support themselves know that they are not free. They know that 
they would rather be home with their wives and children with a 
Gemara open on the table than sitting in some cheesy bar with a 
pitcher of beer and three half drunk Irishmen, one of whom happens 
to be the Boss. But they're too beholden to Buck to ever admit it.

Ain ben chorin ela mi she'osek baTorah. And if you want to do that, 
there is only one place to do it. And it's east of the Atlantic and the 
Meditteranean. Come join us and see for yourself.

> Analogies to prewar Germany are trite. You can do better than that.

I think I just did. Off the soapbox.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

In Avodah 4#407, GStudent replied:
> The American one is for the nasi umishneihu - the President and Vice
President.  Since when does the VP hold any power? <
FYI (where Y is "y'all" :-): In "Breuer's," the paragraph in question
mentions only the "President shel artzos ha'b'ris."

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

In Avodah 4#403, GDubin asked:
>> Does anyone have a formal schedule based on X
mishnayos per day leading to finishing Y sdorim in Z time? <<
CSherer responded:
> Two mishnayos a day takes about six years, three mishnayos a
day takes about four (for all of Shas). <
As was subsequently mentioned, two per day essentially is
the Mishna Yomit schedule.  For those who are interested,
Rabbi E.Karp of Brooklyn sends me a calendar every year
(I can give you his address and tel#), and I find the
http://www.torahcc.org/mishna/ WWWsite
useful in trying to :-) keep up.  I'm not at MBerger's level :-)
(by which I mean the MMG"H line in his signature), but there is
nothing like a schedule for concretizing your commitment to
a daily engagement with Torah.

In message , Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> writes
>In v4n397, Chana Luntz <Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk> writes:
>: Since, however, I have a great deal of difficulty (British
>: understatement here!) in attributing loshen hora (or, alternatively,
>: unnecessary loshen hora) to HaShem...
>
>There are limits to the applicability of halachah to HKBH. For example, He
>apparantly violates "lo sa'amod al dam rei'echa" with regularity. Similarly
>He starts fires on Shabbos, vechulu, vechulu...
>

Yes but there is a difference here.  None of the above cases involve
human beings.  However, Loshen hora is not just an issur for the
speaker, but for the listener as well, and for that listen when he/she
then passes it on.  Since the Torah was transmitted by HaShem to Moshe,
then Moshe to Aaron, then to Aaron's sons, then to the seventy elders -
we have lots of human beings that are involved.

>In the case of L"H, there is real reason to excempt Hashem. The Ch"Ch writes
>that one may not even speak ill of himself, since his reputation belongs to
>Hashem, not to himself. If we're to view this as a kind of geneivah, then
>perhaps the Owner has permission where we don't.

Perhaps.  The point I was making though, does not relate to the Owner,
but to other parts of the owned.  As mentioned, Moshe, Aaron, and all of
us every week in shul.  Even if Hashem has the right to speak loshen
hora about Miriam, or Sarah Imanu, if it is fundamentally assur, is it
not problematic that Moshe hears it and repeats it, word for word! 

>
>Aside from that, the whole question of theodicy is because we are incapable
>of judging the to'eles for which He does things. How then can we assess if
>His lashon hara is lito'eles or not? We need to just rely on the fact that
>He doesn't do things without a reason. In which case, we are assuming the
>to'eles exists, it's not lashon hara, and we will never fully understand why.

I agree that a to'eles must exist.  However, the formulation regarding
loshen hora, as it has been expressed on this board and other places, is
so absolutist that virtually any to'eles that applies in this case
appears to me to be ruled out.  To my mind, but perhaps you disagree,
the essence of the transmission of Torah to Moshe Rabbainu and from
Moshe to Yisroel was to teach us how to live (otherwise it could have
stayed in Shamayim).  Ie we are expected to learn from the Torah.  But
it seems to me that we are effectively been told that the fact that the
listener might learn something of value from it is never an excuse for
loshen hora (So it seems hard to see that the fact that something might
be learnt as remotely as something that Rabbi Akiva will darshan
generations later does not fit within that stricture) especially if we
know that some people will misinterpret matters. 

>
>- -mi
>
>- -- 
>Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 29-Feb-00: Shelishi, Vayakhel
>micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
>http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 2a
>For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         
>

Shabbat Shalom

Chana


-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

In message , DFinchPC@aol.com writes
>In a message dated 2/28/00 7:57:21 AM US Central Standard Time, 
>MSDratch@aol.com writes:
>
><< "I'm prepared to divide my beit midrash in half," Rabbi Tendler said,
>     using the Hebrew for Talmudic study hall.  "My synagogue -- never."
>     Orthodox women should know, he said, that in synagogue "they're welcome
>     guests, but they're guests.  Their presence is not required.  That's
>     not their role, to modify the service so that they can participate more
>     fully."
> 
> Wgatever our positions on feminism, JOFA, etc., I'm interested in your 
> reactions to "women as guests."  Thanks.   >>

Not that I am likely to ever get an invite, but I don't think I would
enjoy accepting a shabbas invitation at Rav Tendlers'!

Maybe it is because I have spent so much time overseas, away from my
family, prior to getting married, but I have spend innumerable shabbasim
and yom tovim as a guest in other people's houses.  And while that means
that I have spent time with countless wonderful families, it also means
I have spent a considerable number of occasions feeling decidely
uncomfortable and I am particularly sensitive to what it means to be a
guest - especially at emotional times like the yom tovim (seder is the
worst, btw somehow the others are more manageable, but pesach is when
the homesickness always really kicks in).

And, at least to me, as the recipient, real hachnasas orchim is about
making somebody who does not belong in your home feel welcome, something
that clearly requires greater effort when you are dealing with a guest
than when you are dealing with a family member.

One particularly egregarious example springs to mind, when, for lack of
space, the family I was staying with for shabbas had two separate tables
in the dining room (not joined), the one populated by the married adults
(some younger than me), the other containing me (aged 26, post
university, a qualified lawyer with four degrees, but, of course,
single) with the next oldest on the table being around 12.  I don't
think I am particularly a person to stand on kavod, but it was a pretty
miserable experience, the feeling of exclusion being just so vivid.

As a consequence of such experiences, I again have spent more shabbasim
than I can count all by myself for both meals in preference to take up
some very kind but less than comfortable offers.

(BTW Somewhere or the other I came across a warm hearted book on how to
carry out the mitzvah of  Hachnasas Orchim properly -  which included a
whole host of practical tips - such as make sure that your bathroom door
has a lock on it that works, an issue that any guest will recognise -
and other such pieces of advice for those wishing to be sensitive to the
needs of their guests).

So if Rabbi Tendler is serious about the analogy, I can only conclude
one of two things:

a) he does not believe in treating his guests very well; or

b)  there is more reason, rather than less, to be sensitive to women's
desires to "split" the shul than there is in the Beis Medrash (where
according to him, women should feel and are at home).

Shabbat Shalom

Chana

So if Rabbi Tendler is serious about the analogy, either he do


-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

On 2 Mar 00, at 15:51, Micha Berger wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:19:00PM +0200, BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
> : Indeed, Rav Ovadia Yosef does NOT accord any halachic status of Eretz
> : Yisrael to the Golan. I believe this was also the shitta of Rav Goren.
> 
> Why not? It had such status in David haMelech's day.

I think it was Suria. Not the same kdusha (kibbush yachid). 

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 2 Mar 00, at 16:09, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 08:45:41 -0600
> > From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
> > Subject: Re: Chinuch along multiple tracks
> 
> <<AIUI, what RSRH was talking about........>>
> 
> 	AIUI?

As I undestood it.

- -Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 2 Mar 00, at 15:49, Micha Berger wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 01:31:09PM -0500, Eric Simon wrote:
> : B'nei Yisroel did not realize that Miriam was outside of the camp for seven
> : days?
> 
> I'm missing your question. Why would they know? If you're in a crowd of
> 2-3 million people, would you wonder why you didn't bump into one of the
> notables for a week?

See the first Rashi in Parshas Shlach regarding the smichus 
ha'parsheyos.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 2 Mar 00, at 16:06, Joelirich@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/2/00 1:27:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:
> 
> << 
>     Why believe the stuff that is put out under the auspices of Israeli
>  journalism.? Their standards for telling the truth when it comes to
>  Charedim in general and Charedim as political foes in particular runs a
>  close second to Izvestia.
>  
>  Gershon
>  gershon.dubin@juno.com
>  
>   >>
> What would be helpful is an alternative explanation of a particular set of 
> undisputed facts.

I'm not sure what "undisputed" facts require an alternative 
explanation. I thought I had explained pretty clearly that Shas is 
highly unlikely to sell its vote on the Golan treaty, and in any event 
their dispute with the coalition goes well beyond money to things 
that should concern all of us (like the ability to make more 
Sephardi Baalei Tshuva). What else would you like explained?

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 2 Mar 00, at 15:47, Micha Berger wrote:

> : note that the language of the Mishna is "shloma shel MALCHUS." 
> : (Okay, admittedly at the time of the Mishna there weren't many 
> : other forms of government).
> 
> Wasn't Athens still a democracy? (Or at least ruled by "The Five Thousand"?)

I was thinking the same thing, but I forgot when the Athens we 
learned about in ninth grade was in history. I think that would 
actually have pre-dated the Mishna. If there had been Jews there, 
would they have said the tfilla? I'm not sure.

Anyway, now that I'm home and I have my sforim, I think I may 
have an answer. Monk in Olam HaTfilos (Volume 2 Page 43) hints 
at it. He says that there was never a shortage of false claims 
against this Tfilla, and he brings a Targum Sheini of Megillas 
Esther (which davka makes it mat'im to the period leading up to 
Purim) which says that one of Haman's claims against the Jews 
(apparently based on this tfilla) was that once every seven days the 
Jews would go to shul, read their books, translate their Neviim, 
curse our (meaning the Persians') king and his officers, and then 
say "zeh hu yom ha'shvii asher bo shovas ha'keil ha'gadol." 

Of course that would not explain why it has davka started to be left 
out in the last century or two (as opposed to earlier) if that is in fact 
the case, but it may explain why the Mishna is often ignored today.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]