Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 390

Wednesday, February 23 2000

• Lashon Hara to Let Off Steam
• Re: Daf Yomi Query
• Re: Eleanor Rigby (all ther lonely people)
• Re: Lashon Hara to Let Off Steam
• Cigarette Proclamation
• Re: Avodah V4 #388
• Mord........chai
• diyukim
• RE: besmirching frum sociopaths
• Re: 60 Minutes
• Re: Lashon Hara to Let Off Steam
• false frumkeit/hilonim
• Re[3]: besmirching frum sociopaths
• Re: dagesh kal after "open"-ended word (was "diyuk")
• haaretz article
• RE: besmirching frum sociopaths
• Frum sociopaths
• Chilonim/Charedim, Problems and Solutions

Someone asked the other day whether it is permitted to speak 
Lashon Hara to let off steam, and the question was sort of 
dismissed. I'm not sure what the poster meant, but there is a shita 
which the Chafetz Chaim brings in the second hagaa in the Be'er 
Mayim Chaim Clal 2 S"K 1 that says that there is no issur lashon 
hara if you are in a fight with someone and during the fight you 
speak lashon hara about the person with whom you are fighting in 
his presence. The Chafetz Chaim brings this in the name of the 
Nesivos Olam, Nesiv HaLashon Chapter 7. The Chafetz Chaim 
rejects this shita based on a sifri regarding motzi shem ra on a 
woman who was allegedly missing bsulim, who says it's rechilus 
even though it was said be'phanehah. Ayen Sham.

Still didn't find the Maaseh Beis Din thing though....

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 21 Feb 00, at 23:19, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer wrote:

> The MME there says that the necessity of Kiddush Hashem is that one must be
> mefayes someone who has a claim against you on their own terms, even if
> those terms are repugnant by our standards (i.e., killing and hanging Bnei
> Shaul). This may be a geder of Hora'as Sha'ah, but it was necessary for
> Kiddush Shem Shomayim.
> 
> Can this be applied, as RHM says, to either Chillonim or (l'havdil)
> Yishmaelim?

I looked at the Michtav tonight at Maariv. I think it can be applied if 
we have a melech, a navi and urim v'tumim, just like Dovid 
HaMelech had. If we have all those things, then we can take people 
and pass them in front of the aron and see who the aron is kolet. 
Otherwise, I don't think we have the right to do something like that.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

--- Shalom Carmy <carmy@ymail.yu.edu> wrote:
> > I most certainly respect the SE. He was a Gadol.
> And I
> > do not say that he was a lonely and bitter man. 
> On
> > the contrary.  I would guess that most of the time
> he
> > was probably a very positive individual who most
> > certainly contributed enormously to Klal Israel. I
> was
> > simply pointing out a mood that seemed to emanate
> from
> > those letters .  My point was that this was THE
> > IMPRESSION ONE GETS if his only source of
> information
> > was the letters published in the TuM journal
> article.
> 
> And if he was indeed a lonely man all the time (not
> only when he was
> writing letters), and just not upbeat at all, and if
> he were in fact (as
> he may have been) chronically critical of most of
> what the Orthodox world
> was pushing? I am not sure that these traits are
> vices, and some of them
> may even be virtues.

Granted. 

I just think it would have been better to get a more
expanded view of the SE which included sources
additional to the series of letters that, IMHO were
highly personal and and written to only one individual
who was outside the mainstream of Orthodoxy. I don't
believe we get as accurate a picture of the man,
although I will admit that it was gratifying to see
the SE's thoughts on the matters he discussed, often
corroborated some of my own views.

HM
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In a message dated 2/22/00 6:33:38 PM US Central Standard Time, 
sherer@actcom.co.il writes:

<< but there is a shita 
 which the Chafetz Chaim brings in the second hagaa in the Be'er 
 Mayim Chaim Clal 2 S"K 1 that says that there is no issur lashon 
 hara if you are in a fight with someone and during the fight you 
 speak lashon hara about the person with whom you are fighting in 
 his presence.  >>

From all of us who play ice hockey as a hobby, thank you and amen!

David Finch

From what I recall, some of our members believe that a
smoking proclamation is not within the realm of the
gedolim and is something they should not get involved
in.  

Please explain this:

____________________________________________________


Haredi papers consider banning
               tobacco ads
               By Judy Siegel-Itzkovich

               (February 21) - The editors and
managers of of Hamodia
               and Yated Ne'eman, the two Ashkenazi
haredi dailies,
               will meet soon to discuss whether to
refuse to accept
               tobacco advertising, which constitutes
a major chunk of
               their income. Both papers said they
will follow
               instructions from their rabbis. 

               Full-page Dubek advertisements with
religious themes,
               handled by a haredi woman advertising
agent in Bnei
               Brak, have appeared for many years in
these papers. 

               One, for example, shows a havdala
candle and spice box
               - signifying the end of Shabbat -
alongside a pack of
               cigarettes, with the slogan shavua tov
("A good week");
               another refers to cigarettes and "the
lips of wise men."


               Tobacco companies have long claimed
that their ads
               "merely try to persuade existing
smokers to switch to
their
               brand, instead of getting non-smokers
to start smoking."


               The Jerusalem-based Hamodia, read
primarily by a
               hassidic audience, and the Bnei
Brak-based Yated
               Ne'eman, which has a Lithuanian
(mitnagdim) following,
               are three years behind the anti-tobacco
campaigns of
               Yom Le'Yom, the Shas-affiliated weekly
inspired to take
               action by party spiritual leader Rabbi
Ovadia Yosef. 

               The Sephardi-oriented Yom Le'Yom went
so far as to
               bar all cigarette advertisements from
its pages, even
               though Dubek and other companies
supplied a major part
               of its advertising income. 

               Hamodia editor Elazar Knopf said
yesterday that "we'll
               certainly discuss it. We will do
whatever our rabbis
rule."
               He declined to say how much money the
paper received
               each year for Dubek's ads. 

               Haim Rieger, the advertising manager at
Yated Ne'eman,
               said that a discussion on whether to
adopt a new
               advertising policy regarding tobacco
will be held this
               week. "There are all kinds of legal and
other
               implications," he said. 

               The question of tobacco advertising in
the Ashkenazi
               haredi papers was raised by forceful
rulings by leading
               rabbinical authorities against smoking
given prominence
               on Friday by the two Ashkenazi haredi
dailies.
               Unprecedented front-page news articles
accompanied
               large advertisements placed by Rabbis
Yosef Shalom
               Elyashiv, Aharon Yehuda Leib Steinman,
Moshe Shmuel
               Shapira, Michl Yehuda Lifkovitz, Nissim
Karelitz, and
               Shmuel Auerbach. 

               The articles and the advertisements in
the two papers
               called on young people not to start
smoking, and for
               those who already smoke to "gradually
try to quit." 

               A few weeks ago, The Jerusalem Post was
the first to
               publish an even more rigorous ruling by
prominent Bnei
               Brak sage Rabbi Shmuel Halevy Wosner,
which
               appeared in an boxed ad on the Friday
front pages of
               both Hamodia and Yated Ne'eman. Wosner
called on
               people not only to avoid starting to
smoke altogether,
but
               said that if they were already hooked,
they should
               gradually kick the habit. 

               He also declared that smokers should
not light up in
               public places and thus harm others, and
stated that 
"those
               that advertise [cigarettes] in the
newspapers and those
               who assist in this dangerous thing"
will have to take
               responsibility for the harm they
cause." 



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In a message dated 2/22/00 12:36:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:
Shlomo Godnik reminds us that 

[1] << we should not overlook the possibility that the Torah T'mima's
 presentation may itself have been a bit tendentious and have overstated
 certain aspects of the Netziv's conduct.>>

Question: How can we know that from anything else that he wrote.

[2] << The Torah T'mima left  Volozhin, against the Netziv's express wishes, 
to become the  manager of a bank.  He himself may have had a TIDE agenda to 
push.) >>

Question: Is that why he is discounted (that word was relayed to me by a 
Lakewood 
talmid now long-time rosh yeshivah) in so-called Lakewood circles?

chaim wasserman

	Mentioning the Minchas Shai in connection with chataf/shva,   together
with RRW (R' Richard Wolpoe,  for the pedants)'s off list request for
clarification,  caused me to do what I should have done previously-look
up the Minchas Shai on the word. 

	Free translation:

		Most of the printed seforim have a shva only under the daled.  Some of
the manuscripts have a chataf kamatz,  and in the "Mikra (?) manuscript I
found the following on the margin:   In the French and German seforim, 
when there is the phrase "Mordechai Hayehudi" it says with a shva.  In
(S"S= Sifrei Sefarad) there is no difference and all are chataf kamatz.

Gershon

> Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 19:38:10 +0200
> From: D & E-H Bannett <dbnet@barak-online.net>
> Subject: Re: diyukim

<<No Sefaradi nusach, whether from Afghanistan, Iraq, Algeria, Morocco,
Greece, Bulgaria, Turkey, or Italy ever heard of the tzeireh form.>.

<<They, and the Yemenites as well, have also never heard of 
zeicher-zecher. None of them ever even dreamed of the super-weirdity of
Yisasekhar in Vayetzei or up to Pinehas.  Doesn't it seem that the
Ashkenazim have developed, in the last few hundred years, a tendency for
aberrations and ignoring clear and unquestioned mesorot?  Comments
welcomed.>>

	Well,  it certainly seems clear that the Ashkenazi mesora,  with all the
gedolei olam who used it,  commented on it and defended it,  needs to be
chucked,  as it is clearly no more than an accretion of aberrations
(how's that for alliteration?)  

	Anyone willing to trade a Ben Ish Chai or Kaf Hachaim for a slightly
used set of Mishna Brura?

Gershon

> I was told by an aquaintance of mine who does chesed
> work in NY stae prisons that there is a minyan of
> "frum" sociopaths in prison, one of whom was convicted
> of murdering his wife for insurance money.  I believe
> he is the bal Koreh.
> 

Maybe he did teshuvah? Some people do, you know.

Akiva

R. Harry Maryles writes:

 And it isn't just Shinui.
> What about Shulamit Aloni's Meretz?  

Shula has been put out to pasture. Now we have Yossi Sarid 
instead.

What about the
> Yossi Balins of the world? Barak campaigned on a
> platform of drafting  Charedi Yeshiva students,
> remember? 

Barak actually dropped that before the elections (well before in 
fact). He realized it wasn't a way to win friends and influence 
people.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 22 Feb 00, at 19:58, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/22/00 6:33:38 PM US Central Standard Time, 
> sherer@actcom.co.il writes:
> 
> << but there is a shita 
>  which the Chafetz Chaim brings in the second hagaa in the Be'er 
>  Mayim Chaim Clal 2 S"K 1 that says that there is no issur lashon 
>  hara if you are in a fight with someone and during the fight you 
>  speak lashon hara about the person with whom you are fighting in 
>  his presence.  >>
> 
> >From all of us who play ice hockey as a hobby, thank you and amen!

Just PLEASE don't idolize Marty McSorley. What a goon!

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

regarding the question of trimming a beard/frumkeit in
prison:

as i recall Rav Moshe has a tshuva to someone who
wanted to know if he should remove his kippa if he
went to a movie.  the answer was that if "you are so
frum that you worry about hilul hashem, you wouldn't
be going there in the first place".  so too with
people who commit very serious offenses (I would
imagine).  no one is telling them to eat treif.  but
come on guys, work on the important stuff and then
work on the beard length. (important stuff includes
things like murder, drugs, child molestation).

however, regarding the minyan - what should they do,
pray alone?

regarding hilonim - frum people often take opposition
as hatred.  If someone wants to change the marriage
laws here, that is not NECESSARILY because he hates
the frum.  Tommy Lapid is not the average hiloni
(IMHO).  But then again, if there is a party which
wants to tell people what they should do on
Indenpdence Day (tehillim, kippot,etc.) why shouldn't
there be a party which complains about hekshers on dog
food?

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RR Wolpoe wrote:

>>BTW, if your thesis is indeed correct, is there then any such thing as 
Hypocracy?>>

I think you have to distinguish between hypocracy and inconsistency.  Someone 
who is inconsistent acknowledges his human frailty but strives to do as much as 
possible.  A hyopcrite is content and even proud of his lot.

Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

In Avodah 4#389, GDubin replied:
> Other than the conflicts you've named,
do you have a more explicit source? <
As I mentioned to you privately, my only source is
the same one you referred to: the t'o'mim (on the
"ki li _t_ichrah kol berech..." <*> posuk fragment in
Y'shayah and everywhere else in TaNaCh).  As a
side point, these very t'o'mim emphasize that, as per
the posuk fragment from Tz'faniyah, the phrase (prior
to our previous issues' controversial "kulam k'echad"
phrase) should read "sofo _v'_rurah" rather than
"sofo b'rurah," and I have difficulty understanding how
the Siddur Avodas Yisroel can print the latter together
with Baer's note re its source w/out theorizing that Baer
expected the printer to not print the second word with
a dagesh kal -- can anyone find a leg for
the latter choice to be somaich on?!  TIA.

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ
---------
<*>  See, Micha, I remembered to use "_" rather than
"*" for underlining emphasis! :-)

see interesting article on 'the  indirect costs of hareidi education'
detailing estimates of  cost of hareidim out of the workplace, miluim
etc.... amongst their comments [projecting rise of hareidim to ~10%  of the
population]----   what will come 1st-   the hareidim cracking under the
burden of poverty, or the chilonim rebelling against bearing that burden....

--- Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> > I was told by an aquaintance of mine who does
> chesed
> > work in NY stae prisons that there is a minyan of
> > "frum" sociopaths in prison, one of whom was
> convicted
> > of murdering his wife for insurance money.  I
> believe
> > he is the bal Koreh.
> > 
> 
> Maybe he did teshuvah? Some people do, you know.
> 
> Akiva

Who Knows?

HM
> 
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There are likely a good number of frum sociopaths in prison (although one
being in prison does not necessarily make one by definition a sociopath)
-- especially given that a good number of Rabbonim (project aleph in
Florida) do kiruv work in prison -- it is nothing to laugh at.  As for
the case which prompted this discussion, if someone for instance, wears
tzitzis and makes the brocha on tzitzis every day even though they only
daven Shacharis (and not mincha/Maariv) does someone lose credit for
having put on tzitzis and davenning Shacharis? Or what about the person
who sat next to me in shul this morning who walked in just prior to the
kehal reciting Shemonah Esrei -- said Berachos, a chopped up Pesukei
DeZimra, Berachos Krias Shema and Krias Shema, Shemonah Esrei, Tachanun
(he did listen to the Chazaraas HaShatz), and then proceeded to put on
Rabbeinu Tams before he left the shul -- does he lose credit for Rabbeinu
Tams or the parts he did daven even though Kavanna was likely wanting?   
   

I received the following post privately. Because it is
the wish of the poster to remain anonymous I have
deleted his name and any IDs that are attached.  I
debated posting it to the list although I had
permission to do so anonymously. Eventhough this has
been much discussed and debated previously,   I feel
it is an important issue and have decided to
re-address the issue only this time with substantive
suggestions towrds a solution.  The problem of
animosity between Charedim and Chilonim is an
important one and doesn't seem to be going away.  If
anything it is getting worse and could spiral out of
control.  The Sixty Minutes piece broadcast this past
Sunday is indicative of this.  So, with that in mind
here is the post and my comments that follow:


> Because the laws of CDRG are so unclear, I request
> clearly that you erase my 
> letter after having read it or in some way erase my
> name, as I do not want 
> my name attached to this letter because of the
> measuring stick used by some.
> 
> I have decided that it is in my best interests not
> to say my piece in a 
> public forum. Religious fanatacism is unfortunately
> not a thing of the past 
> - nor are power struggles. But if the truth be
> knownst, I'm not sure that it 
> is fair to speak of the Chiloni hatred for Chareidim
> without speaking of 
> Chareidi hatred for Chilonim.
> 
> What? Hardly any Chareidim hate Chilonim?!
> 
> True. And hardly any Chilonim *hate* Chareidim.
> There are varying degrees of 
> dislike on both sides, and being one who lives in
> Israel, and 
> not-too-long-ago was involved in the Mir Yeshiva,
> and who was very involved 
> in trying to quell the hatred on both sides, I can
> attest that we cannot 
> *blame* the Chilonim. And we certainly cannot say
> that Tomy Lapid *hates* 
> the Chareidim. (I would rather deal with the main
> issue rather than Mr. 
> Lapid but if you have a very great interest to know
> more about him and why 
> his ravings do not at all qualify as hatred I'll be
> glad to explain. But 
> back to the "Chiloni hatred".)
> 
> Of the people whom I have spoken with on the
> subject, almost all nonfrum 
> have something against Chareidim (as do most Dati
> Leumi, they just aren't 
> vocal about it). Why? Partially based on
> misinformation. (There's a lot of 
> that in this country - many secular Israelis are
> afraid to visit a 
> particularly safe part of the country out of fear of
> Arabs, as one who lives 
> there, I cannot overestimate (thank G-d) how
> unjustified that fear is.) But 
> much of the animus is well based. The arrogance of
> so many of teh Chareidim 
> who declare themselves to be G-d's most beloved yet
> who live off of the 
> taxes of others, don't serve in the army and do not
> decry Chareidi violence.
> 
> do not decry Chareidi violence = Very few ingage in
> violence (stone 
> throwing, brick dropping, tracter burning, "Nazi"
> calling, spitting, pushing 
> before moving cars, etc.) but the "gedolim" know
> very well how to make their 
> voice heard when they won't to. e.g. R' Shach that
> going to the army is 
> Yehareg V'al Ya'avor and the next week all of the
> gedolim saying "we agree 
> with Maran...". Yet in the face of Chareidi violence
> by (hopefully) a bunch 
> of misfits they are uncharacteristically silent.
> What do you expect the 
> nonreligious to think other than that they support
> the violence? I have even 
> been told the same by Ramim in Yeshivot!
> 
> Furthermore as the SE pointed out in letters quoted
> by R' Marc and in R' 
> J.J.'s article Chareidi society will move heaven and
> earth for what they 
> believe in (extreme tzniut, Chumrot for Shabbat
> (Pepsi just came out with 
> new adds for their new bottle cap - "Habakbuk
> Shemutar Liftoach BiShabbat!), 
> learning R' Chaim all day, etc.) what about Kiddush
> Hashem? What about 
> ethics and morals? Ahavat Yisrael? Ahavat Hashem? Am
> Chacham Vinavon (see SE 
> letter early on in R' Marc's article)? Honesty in
> admitting when Mikorot are 
> Soter rather than finding a Dochak "Chidush" (as the
> SE says in his letter 
> to R' Atlas)?
> 
> Secular society sees what the Chareidim care about
> and what they don't. How 
> many political scandals have a certain frum party
> pulled off in order to 
> retain power or money, not caring about the security
> of Israel but just 
> about their position? How about dividing the nation
> based on ethnicity just 
> when the late and very great Menachem Begin had
> emancipated the Sphardim and 
> 1/3 of the country was "intermarrying" in the Edot?
> 
> I am not saying that the Chiloni leaders or lay
> people are better - BUT THEY 
> DON'T CLAIM to be following G-d's divine laws.
> 
> R' Raz's book about R' Aryeh Levine was mentioned on
> this list. R' Raz 
> wasn't lying. I have met people who knew R' Aryeh
> tangentilly 50 years ago 
> and his influence still abides with them. One old
> Lechinik was complaining 
> to me about the "Rabbis" (which nowadays is
> synonamous with "the frum" e.g. 
> the Gedolim's response to R'shach on the army -
> "jump!" "How high?") of 
> today - a bitter diatribe. Then he said (in a
> defiant tone) I'm not afraid 
> to say that I don't know what a Rabbi is.
> Kemayot...I don't know. I'm not 
> convinced. But once I knew a Rabbi, R' Aryeh Levine,
> he was a Rabbi. If 
> there ever was such a thing as a Tzaddik Nistar he
> was it. His face shown...
> 
> I do not want to open a thread attacking the
> Chareidim in Israel. I wish we 
> could focus more on the positive. But this thread
> about how bad the Chilonim 
> are, and "they're not so bad" apoligetics is
> unjustified. I just wanted to 
> point that out. I think that it is unfairly
> impugning a large sgment of Klal 
> Yisrael when it is seen as a one-sided affair.
> 
> If you feel that having this letter sent out to the
> Chevra will help end the 
> attack on the Chilonim please do that but erase my
> name. Otherwise please 
> keep it to yourself (and respect my wishes to erase
> my name). Thank you.
> 
> Oseh Shalom Bimromav Hu Ya'aseh Sahalom Aleinu VAl
> Kul Yisrael. Amen!




As to the substance of your post.  I agree totally
with the sentiments that you express.  Actually, there
is nothing in your post that I didn't already know or
suspect.  As a matter of fact, I think there is more
blame to be given to the Charedi Side than the Chiloni
side. A lot of this has already been debated on the
list, but here-to-fore no substantive solution have
been put forth by anyone. 

 Allow me to state what I believe to be the main
elements of the controversy based on observations and
discussions that I've had with members of both
communties:

1. The Draft issue.  Charedim aren't subjected to the
same dangers of war as those who are drafted, and as a
corollary, don't have any service requirements as does
the rest of the nation.  

2. The economic issue. The high proportion of Charedim
who are students and therefore unproductive
(economically) to society and instead are a burdon
eating up large portions of Government funds given to
subsidize Yeshivos, Kollelim, and Avreichim.

3. The inability to work because of lack of military
service,  that is, the requirement to first "serve" in
the IDF before going into the work force prevents even
those ready to work from doing so.  So, they continue
to stay in yeshivos and are unproductive financially
and are often a financial burdon on State.

4. Pro-active legislation to ever more turn a secular
State of Israel into a religious one on the part of
the ever more powerful Religious parties.

5. The stridency whereby many of the Charedim speak of
their rights to create an ever more religious society
through legislation.  This often results peaceful
protest or even violent protest. These are the
extremists who make the most noise and are responsible
for more animosity on the part of Chilonim than
anything else.

I think most Israelis would feel differently about
Religious Judaism if the above five points were
settled.

I'm not sure how appropraite the following is but it
is my belief that Israel should not try and become a
religious State. Because of the status of most
Israelis as Tinokos Shenishbu (TS) I think we are
obligated to treat them with respect and work on Kiruv
in positive ways (if this is even still possible). 
Stridency on religious issues that are misunderstood
by a TS can only be counter produtive.  

I think we have to leave the status quo alone. 
Whatever Chilul Shabbos that exists... leave it as is
for now.  We cannot teach the beauty of Torah to a TS
by shoving legislation down his throat.  We can't tell
a Chiloni he can't go to the movies on Shabbos anymore
because we are closing all the theaters.  That's just
going to make him mad at us.  We need instead to leave
those theaters open for now and work on trying to be
Mekarev those TS's in a positive way.

Languge like "Yehareg V'al Ya'avor" about serving in
the IDF is not helpful.  Even if you believe it is
wrong to serve in the army (I don't) there is a better
(Darcei Noam) way to express it. But "Yehareg V'al
Ya'avor" just make TN's mad.  Please, no more rhetoric
like this.

The Gedolei Hador and the Roshei Yeshivos have to more
proactively teach appropriate behavior towards TN"s
and have strong sanctions against those who are
violent in their protests, insterad of having an
apologetic attitude about them.  ( A typical apology
will go something like this: "even thought I don't
agree with his behaviour I understand his frustration
etc.") Instead there should be strong, unequivical
condemnations of violent protest followed by action
(such as expulsions of Yeshiva students from Yeshivos
or expulsions from chasidic sects of those who are
violent. Or, turning in to Israeli authorities known 
violent perpetrators).

The Draft.   Either Israel needs to makle an all
voluntary Army or every one needs to be subjected to
the draft equally.  Exemtions should be made on a case
by case basis and should apply equally to all members
of Israeli society.  Not only should SOME Yeshiva
students be exempt but other vital members of society
should also be exempt or deffered.   A good example
would be a defferal for med school students who could
defer service until  after med school and then go in
as Drs.  

Yeshiva students could go in as Chaplains after
Smicha.  But the main thing is that it shouldn't be
only Yeshiva students that are exempt. And it
definately should not be automatic.  Perhaps there
would be some sort of Bechina as to who is really
learning at a minimum level.  These standards can be
determined by a committee of Roshei Yeshiva
representative of the entire spectrum of Charedi/Dati
society. The IDF then has to make acceptable
conditions for Charedim to serve, such as all Charedi
units and upgraded kshrus, etc. 

The economic issue needs to be corrected too.  

The educational system should be combined under one
umbrella organization (call it the Dept of Education)
and funds should be distributed equally to all
segments of Israeli society, Charedi to secular. No
one school system will get any more than any other
school system.  It should apply to compulsory eduction
through high school. Minimum performance standards for
all  these schools shopuld be set and would require
secular studies as a part of any curriculem.  No
School would get public funds without secular studies.
 Higher education such as Kollelim, Yeshivos Gedolos,
or universities would not be included and would be
privatized.  To the extent that isn't possible, there
should be equal amounts of support for universities
and Yeshivos Gedolos.

The  requirement of pre- military service for the
workplace should be eliminated.  Getting a job should
be independant of one's requirement to serve one's
country.

Once these things are done, then I truly believe that
we can all start getting along.

HM
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