Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 379

Saturday, February 19 2000

• Re: Mabul and SE - Mah Inyan Shmitta..?
• Re: The Study of History
• Re: From Today's "Israel Line"
• Re: Mabul and SE - Mah Inyan Shmitta
• Re: Mabul and SE - Mah Inyan Shmitta
• Jewish History
• Charedi college of SHAS
• [none]
• Megilas Esther - Reading the word Mordechai
• Re: kaddish
• Re: Diyukim
• Re: Rashi

In a message dated 2/18/00 12:52:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

<< But, if they do not also inspire a la "A Tzaddik in Our Time", from a
 Torah-true viewpoint, they have failed. RAEKaplan has an essay on a related
 point: "Keitzad Historia Nilmedes". He says that history must be learnt with
 the cognizance and stress of yad Hashem. >>

That is a very good reason to learn history. It is not the only reason.

Jordan Hirsch

--- DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
>  Is
> the sole basis of this 
> "halacha" the prohibition against Lashon Hara? Are
> there other reasons why 
> Torah requires us to edit out the indisputable truth
> about the "good guys," 
> even when such truth would human, enhance, and
> ultimate validate the 
> biographer's conclusion of the good guy was a good
> guy in the first place?
> 
> I'm genuinely confused about what Torah teaches us
> about this subject. I'd be 
> grateful if someone would explain it to me.

It is mainly Lashan Hara but it is more than that.  It
borders on Chilul HaShem when we paint great figures
in Jewish history in the most Negative light. We must
take great care in expressing our historical biases
lest we besmirch someone unitentionally and make
Judaism seem less than the beautiful thing that it is,
by taking our Jewish spritual heroes and belittleing
them in the public eye.


HM
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--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> SHAS TO OPEN ULTRA-ORTHODOX COLLEGE
> 
> Shas' Council of Torah Sages approved this week the
> establishment of Orian
> College, an institution of higher education that
> will enable students to
> earn fully-accredited degrees in an ultra-Orthodox
> environment, THE
> JERUSALEM POST reported. The college is slated to
> open in October, 2001.
>   The chairman of Orian's development team, Gabi
> Abitbul said, "we are
> building an organized program with the full
> cooperation of the Council for
> Higher Education for a college with two campuses, in
> Jerusalem and Bnei
> Brak."
>   Orian will offer instruction in computers, social
> work, paramedic
> training, business and finances to men and women
> separately.
>   Knesset Education Committee Chairman Zevulun Orlev
> (NRP) said that he
> supports the opening of an ultra-Orthodox college as
> it will allow Shas
> supporters to join society rather than "remain in a
> spiritual ghetto."


YAY!

I'm told that R. Leib Steinman of Poneveich, is very
much behind this type of movement in the Charedei
Community which, to me, seems like quite a big
departure from attitudes of the past. Could he be a
closet TIDE advocate?

Let's see where this new trend goes.

HM
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Consider that Job may be fiction...

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <DFinchPC@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: Mabul and SE - Mah Inyan Shmitta


> In a message dated 2/18/00 12:18:03 PM US Central Standard Time,
> Abaruch@SINAI-BALT.COM writes:
>
> << "If biography of that quality is good enough for Scripture,
>  why isn't it good enough for the life stories of Gedolim?"
>
>  Perhaps because we cannot know what is and isn't
>  appropriate to tell over.
>   >>
>
> In the Book of Job, *everything* was told over, including Job's heated
> arguments with G-d. It's hard to imagine any detail of Job's despair that
was
> withheld from the narrative. It's also hard to imagine that the narrative
> would have retained its extraordinary power and coherence had such details
> been omitted.
>
> David Finch
>

In a message dated 2/18/00 3:02:55 PM US Central Standard Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

<< Consider that Job may be fiction... >>

I presume that the Book of Job is "fiction," although at that level the 
difference between truth and parable is elusive, and in my mind wholly 
irrelevant.

Please forgive my Derash: Job still teaches us that what might at first 
appear to be sordid detail -- hateful pain, cries of suffering that challenge 
G-d to His face, the temptation to immolate one's self in despair -- can 
ultimately reveal the depths of one's holiness. It in fact can stand as proof 
of holiness. So . . . how can we mine the subtle depths of thought among 
Gedolim if we don't consider factors that Scripture itself might rely upon to 
help us, in individual cases, to understand such depths? 

Koheleth is another example. Solomon recounts the wayward, almost licentious 
cynicism of his middle age in order to explain the lessons he finally learned 
while coming to grips with his own old age and impending death. He does this 
in painful detail. The detail is essential to his story -- it *is* his story. 
But as I understand the rules, Solomon's biography could not be written today 
unless one were to forego either the Scriptural detail or halachic notions of 
propriety.

I guess I just don't buy such restrictions.

David Finch

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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I cannot presume to comment on the halachic complexities that others =
have presented here regarding Jewish history. However, I will note that =
often the study of Jewish history can be extremely meaningful...I know =
that, for me, one looks at the Yad Hashem in the establishment of =
Medinat Yisrael and the unification of Yerushalayim and is in awe of =
what Hashem does for His People.  When one considers the wisdom and =
strength of our ancestors- while the ancestors of other nations were =
still living as essentially barbarians- one should rush to become Dati =
(I know that it certainly encouraged me!).  Often, looking at the =
history of how Gedolei Yisrael have dealt with the problems of their age =
can give on strength, and- yes- sometimes chizuk in their own hashkafot. =
 Thus, as has been stated before, one someone might find negative in a =
biography, another might find quite positive.

I read Dr. Shapiro's book on the Seridei Eish zt"l.  I thought that he =
did an outstanding job of presenting a very complex and evolving Gadol.  =
By the way, I also just completed My Uncle the Netziv (also available, =
by the way, from barnesandnoble.com)...It is an outstanding work written =
by a universally acclaimed Talmid Chacham.  Not only do I recommend it =
for the sheer enjoyment of reading a book allegedly banned by some to =
the right, I recommend it for its inspirational value and historical =
importance (in that it gives a phenominal look at one of the most =
important Yeshivas of the past).

Shabbat Shalom!

Shmuel Jablon

______________________
Rabbi Shmuel Jablon

Visit my new homepage!:  www.rabbijablon.com
Send an e-fax!: 810-314-2515


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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I cannot presume to comment on the halachic =
complexities that=20
others have presented here regarding Jewish history. However, I will =
note that=20
often the study of Jewish history can be extremely meaningful...I know =
that, for=20
me, one looks at the Yad Hashem in the establishment of Medinat Yisrael =
and the=20
unification of Yerushalayim and is in awe of what Hashem does for His=20
People.&nbsp; When one considers the wisdom and strength of our =
ancestors- while=20
the ancestors of other nations were still living as essentially =
barbarians- one=20
should rush to become Dati (I know that it certainly encouraged =
me!).&nbsp;=20
Often, looking at the history of how Gedolei Yisrael have dealt with the =

problems of their age can give on strength, and- yes- sometimes chizuk =
in their=20
own hashkafot.&nbsp; Thus, as has been stated before, one someone might =
find=20
negative in a biography, another might find quite positive.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I read Dr. Shapiro's book on the Seridei Eish =
zt"l.&nbsp; I=20
thought that he did an outstanding job of presenting a very complex and =
evolving=20
Gadol.&nbsp; By the way, I also just completed My Uncle the Netziv (also =

available, by the way, from barnesandnoble.com)...It is an outstanding =
work=20
written by a universally acclaimed Talmid Chacham.&nbsp; Not only do I =
recommend=20
it for the sheer enjoyment of reading a book allegedly banned by some to =
the=20
right, I recommend it for its inspirational value and historical =
importance (in=20
that it gives a phenominal look at one of the most important Yeshivas of =
the=20
past).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Shabbat Shalom!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Shmuel Jablon</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>______________________<BR>Rabbi Shmuel =
Jablon</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Visit my new homepage!:&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"http://www.rabbijablon.com">www.rabbijablon.com</A><BR>Send an =
e-fax!:=20
810-314-2515<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF7A2E.55A00D20--

Shavua Tov.

I just got off the phone with Gabi Butbul of Shas. I just saved them a few
million dollars since the Jewish Bible Association (whose faculty were
appointed as official faculty evaluators in Judaic Studies by Regents College
and Charter Oak College  see: www.jewishbible.org under *College Program*)
will be testing their students in: Jewish Music, Hebrew, Tanach, Talmud
and Jewish Law for up to 90 credits (out of the 120 credits needed for a first
BA). And will guide them how to obtain a second BA in virtually any field
for only another 30 credits (engineering degree from Rochester Institute
of Technology requiring 45 credits).

Josh

Presumably not, as in the article in the Post they deliberately said that they would not be teaching the Humanities.
shavua tov,
Yonatan

>Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:18:22 -0600
>From: Steve Katz <katzco@sprintmail.com>
>Subject: Re: From Today's "Israel Line"
>
>Is this "Maddah?"
>shabbat shalom
>steve

There are different versions of how "Mordechai" is pronounced in Megilas
Esther.


Is the correct pronunciation Mordochai or Mordachai???

Reuven Miller  (for my son-in-law R' Ashi who is a baal kriya)

On 18 Feb 00, at 12:42, Rayman, Mark wrote:

> There are some melodies which cause the tzibbur to violate halakha, like the
> amain in the yontef shmoneh esreh, the melody causes people to answer an an
> amain chatufa (hamevarech es amo yisrael ba SHA...OMEIN).  

I was taught to drag the "hamevorech es amo yisrael" and shorten 
the "bashalom" to avoid this problem.  In my experience, most 
people in Eretz Yisrael seem to have been taught the same thing.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 18 Feb 00, at 10:48, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:49:14 -0500 <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com> writes:
> 
> <<Bottom line, if RYBS said to say both, did he mean at the same time or
> alternating?>>
> 	
> 	It was not RYBS's style, AFAIK,   to do things to be yotze lechol
> hadei'os. He decided what was right and went with it.

So then you think he held that LAomer and BAomer were both 
required? How about Zeicher and Zecher in Ashrei (where he also 
held to say both)? I think that at least in these two cases he 
believed there was a safek that couldn't be resolved, and therefore 
he held we should say both.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 18 Feb 00, at 13:50, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> I have heard off list from 2 people regarding Rashi on Chumash:
> 
> 1) Rashi always is saying peshat 
> 
> 2) Rashi is always saying peshat except when he notes otherwise.
> 
> Any Klalei Rashi or articles or other sources that speak to these assumptions?

Rashi himself says in Breishis 3:8, "v'ani lo bosi ela li'pshuto shel 
mikra, ul'agada ha'myasheves divrei ha'mikra, davar davur al ofanav."

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

*********************


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