Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 345

Tuesday, February 8 2000

• Re: limiting posts
• Re: Kos shel Ikkarin
• Re: smoking ban
• Korbanos For Bnei Noach
• Re: gezel akum
• Re: smoking ban
• Re: limiting posts
• Gezel Akum
• interesting story
• Wither Avodah
• Re: Informing Chasan or Kalla of a Death
• Avodah Chicago Get Together
• 3 Questions (kedushah out loud)
• Re: Wither Avodah
• Calendical Issue
• Kedusha out Loud
• limiting posts
• Re: interesting story

I'm arbitrarily suggesting 7 per week as a number -- it could be 14 per
week -- there are folks on this list who post much more than 4 per day
and there are others who post at most 4 per month (soc-culture-Jewish we
clearly aren't. but to quote another listmember in private communication
to me -- if this list is truly full of talmidei Chachamim, where is the
time coming from to become a talmid).

On Tue, 8 Feb 2000 07:29:51 +0200 "Carl and Adina Sherer"
<sherer@actcom.co.il> writes:
> On 7 Feb 00, at 23:19, Alan Davidson wrote:
> 
> > As an incentive to take certain discussions off list (especially 
> the more
> > incendiary or pointless ones), why don't  we institute posting 
> limits per
> > person per week -- if every listmember was limited even to 7 per 
> week it
> > would cut down on a lot of the bandwith and people would think 
> twice or
> > thrice about whether someone they wouldn't know from the Satmar 
> Rebbe
> > agreed or didn't agree with another such person.  
> >    
> > 
> 
> 7 posts per person per week would cut this list to a digest every 
> two days (my best guess - Micha?), and would be a stiff limit 
> relative to lists I have seen that have limits. We are on one very 
> high volume list that has a listwide maximum of 125 posts per day, 
> an enforced (per person) maximum of 4 per day and an unenforced 
> (per person) maximum of one off topic post per day. 
> 
> In my experience, this list's volume is not at all unreasonable.
> 
> -- Carl
> 
> 
> Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
> Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
> Thank you very much.
> 
> Carl and Adina Sherer
> mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

>>>It seems lichora that EVEN TEMPORARY reversal of fertility may come under the rubric of *kos shel ikkarin*. I suggest you look in the Minchat Chinuch
(Mitzva 291) quoting the lashon of the Sefer HaChinuch re: makkot mardut for "v'chen hamoshiv chaveiro bamayim o basheleg AD SHEBATEL MIMENU KOACH EVREI HA'ZERA". 

I don't get it - I don't have a Minchas Hachinuch with me now, but that lashon is mefurash in the Rambam (issurei Biya 16:9) as well - how do you know it refers to a temporary and not a permanent condition, i.e. being pushed into the snow causing permanent sterility? If you look in the Rambam he says 'ad shebital memenu avrei tashmish' and it cited right after a reference to krus shufcha - permanent conditions.  

>>>And that's why *sirus* is assur even "mesares acharei
mesares"(EH 5:11). Indeed, the Minchat Chinuch writes that's it's assur eve to give *kos shel ikkarin* to someone who was mesuras (it's from a mefrash gematra
in Shabbat 111a).<<<

Mesares achar mesares means attempting to induce permanent sterility to one who is already sterile - what does it have to do with inducing temporary sterility?  Same for kos shel ikkarin.  

Not sure what you are driving at.  

In a message dated 2/5/00 9:30:42 PM US Central Standard Time, 
aviva613@hotmail.com writes:

<< One thing that comes to mind is that Rabbi Bumenkrantz assur's 
 Bean-O on pesach since it is made from the enzyme of a bean.  Now that is a 
 big chumra. >>

Really! Are medicines always assur to the extent their ingredients might be 
derived from a prohibited substance? Pulverized grain products are used as 
fillers in many pills. Are these pills assur on Pesach? Many high-tech 
medications are derived from animal enzymes. Must the animals be kosher?

Bean-O, by the way, is medicine. Along with Tagamet, it is an essential 
complement to Jewish cooking. Think of all the tortures our forefathers would 
not have suffered had they been able to take Bean-O and Tagamet before eating 
the Shabbos cholent. We might even had developed a tradition of silent prayer!

David Finch

Jews have an issur to bring a korban on a bamah but can a gentile bring a korban
(to Hashem) today on his own altar?  When a gentile will bring one to the third 
Beis HaMikdash the kohanim will obviously do the avodah.  Is there any issur for
a gentile to do his own avodah on his own altar?

Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

>>>Anyone have some m'koros regarding gezel akum? I need to convince someone that it's assur.<<<

Since the Be'er HaGolah in C.M. 427 was cited with regard to the smoking issue a few days ago, you might want to refer back to the same siman (I think) where the Be'er haGolah discusses the attitudes toward non-jews of his time vs. the attitude of Chazal to the pagans so that even if gezel akum is technically mutar, for practical purposes it represents a chilul hashem.  

(With apologies in advance if I have the wrong mareh makom).

-Chaim

In a message dated 2/6/00 5:11:37 AM US Central Standard Time, 
BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il writes:

<< No medical authority talks about the dangers of meat and fish ? :-) Access
 //alltheweb.com  for keywords: backon@vms.huji.ac.il fish meat  and you'll
 see my postings on MAIL-JEWISH precisely on this subject. There's a potential
 interaction between omega-6 fatty acids (in fish) and stearic acid (in beef)
 that can affect prostaglandin synthesis and thus may be behind the increased
 insulin resistance found in those taking omega-6 fatty acids. Whether
 conjugated linolenic acid in milk affects fish oil is another matter.
 
 Josh (who works in preventive cardiology at a leading teaching hospital)
  >>

So, Josh, do you agree with me that Bean-O and Tagemet are medicines that 
will prolong the lives (and happiness!) of those who eat traditional Jewish 
food? (If this doesn't fall within your speciality, can you consult a 
gastroenterologist for an opinion?)

David Finch

R' Carl Sherer wrote: <<< In my experience, this list's volume is not at all
unreasonable. >>>

In my opinion, the *volume* is not unreasonable, but the heat-to-light ratio
*is* unreasonable, and I welcome ideas which might improve it, such as some
kind of posting limit.

Akiva Miller

R. Carl Sherer asks:

>Anyone have some m'koros regarding gezel akum? I need to
>convince someone that it's assur.

The Encyclopedia Talmudit has a fine article on the subject.  Rambam is
clear that it is assur, but see the Kesef Mishnah there.  The ET also
cites some scorching statements by the Semag, which I commend to one and
all.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:03:51 -0600
> From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" 
> <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> Subject: Re: interesting story

<<(I do not have the book, but have seen it). This is the first I have
heard of opposition.>>

	I'd be interested in seeing either the book or at least roshei prokim of
his suggestions.  My source said that essentially it was Rav Chaim Ozer
who shot him down,  more for reasons of keeping hechsher mikva in the
hands of rabbonim rather than kol echod v'echod holech uboneh bomo
le'atzmo,  not halachic disputes on his shiurim.

Gershon

> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:19:19 -0500
> From: Alan Davidson <perzvi@juno.com>
> Subject: limiting posts
 
<<As an incentive to take certain discussions off list (especially the
more incendiary or pointless ones), why don't  we institute posting
limits per person per week>>

	The pointless ones seem to wither away,  with a little help,  perhaps
from Micha or his informal editorial board aka the peanut gallery.  The
incendiary ones,  I believe,  need a little (or a lot) of self-control on
everyone's own part,  to know when light is added or when it's only heat.

	Posting limits would have the effect of limiting the output of some of
the more educated/articulate/prolific members of the group-these
characteristics seem to go together in most cases.  It would not limit
topics which are inappropriate.

> Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 01:07:00 EST
> From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
> Subject: Ein Dorshin

<<(PS: I also agree that moderating this list is a good idea, but I don't
want to impose on Micha. I wish I could volunteer, but I don't have the
time either. If no one else comes forward, maybe we should move to
Mail-Jewish?)>>

	Many of the people on Avodah are also on MJ;   I think the flavor is
distinctly different and worth preserving.  I don't think moderation to
the extent Avi does it on MJ is necessary,  only to screen for the more
egregious violations of the listmember agreement and/or darche noam.  If
Micha can't do this by membership criteria,  (which I personally think
has worked well by and large heretofore) or by a quick screen of the
posts,  perhaps some of us could volunteer to do rotations on KP (kashrus
police).

Gershon

It seems to me that the Gemara in Ketubot 4a deals with this type of
situation--the chatan or kalla loses a parent right before the wedding,
after the entire wedding was prepared.  It says there that the wedding
must take place, and after beilat mitzvah the chatan and kallah  separate,
and sleep with
other members of the same sex.   Sheva Brachot are celebrated, but the
avel(a) must observe all aspects of avelut that are betzin'a. Afterwards,
Shiva is observed.  The gemara
does not suggest not telling the chatan/kalla about the death.  I'm not
sure how good this diyuk is, but I think that Gemara is an important
starting point for this discussion.

Daniel Schiffman (A new list member)
das54@columbia.edu   

Sorry for the short notice, but I just learned that I will be in Chicago
on business next week, and will have to stay over on Shabbos Parashas
Titzaveh (19-Feb-00 / 13-Ad1-60).

I'd like to suggest the Chicago contingent of our chevrah meet at Beis
Tefila for "shalashudis" that week, although I'm open to other ideas.

About other such gatherings... I think our two other concentrations of
members are NY and Yeruashalaim. I'd like to stall on organizing a Y'lem
gathering to coordinate it with a trip I'm planning for the summer. But
it's past time to think about a NY gathering. I'm open to suggestions, but
please make them in private email.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  2-Feb-00: Revi'i, Mishpatim
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 108b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 15

R. Aryeh Stein writes:

>R' Moshe (don't remember exactly where offhand, but if anyone's interested,
>I can look it up) states that the shatz, during kedusha, should say all the
>words out loud.  (This is for the benefit of those still in the middle of
>shemona esrai.)  Again, this is usually a problem on shabbos (e.g., when a
>shatz wants to sing mimkomcha, saying "Baruch K'vod Hashem Mimkomo" might
>seem odd.)

IIRC, the reason R. Moshe requires the shaliah tzibbur to repeat out
loud every word of kedushah is because those who wish to be yotze
kedushah through shome'a ke-oneh cannot do so by listening to the
kedushah of the kahal because of trei kalei lo mishtama`ei,

Bi-mkhilat kevod Torato, my personal experience is otherwise (and I deal
with this issue daily).  More importantly, a number of other Aharonim
argue with R. Moshe and hold that, because the ikkar kedushah is that of
the kahal, the person relying on shome`a ke-oneh should davka listen to
the kahal.  I believe one can find a survey of opinions on the subject
in R. Greenblatt's Rivevot Efrayim.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

Perhaps Shlomo haMelech and Brisk would agree about the followng idea, i.e. is 
splitting the list into 2.

List one: Researched articles, Sources, etc. and it would be moderated.
This list - it is moderated - could be sent in digest only mode, and topics 
could be grouped.  EG Several diverset teshuvos on smoking and cancer could be 
all lumped together.

List two: Freewheeling chat-room style, with opinions etc. without moderation 
and with some darchei Noam caveats.  Short of flaming groups or individuals, we 
could all mount our soapboxes and sound off.

This is my 2 cents, one cent per list

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

> my 38th birthday (which, should coincide, being a multiple of 19, but
> is : off by two days).

Just for your information:

4 adar 1 5722 =  8 feb 1962
           31 =  8 feb 1981 
           60 = 10 feb 2000
           79 =  9 feb 2019  
           98 =  9 feb 2038
         5817 =  8 feb 2057

Be aware that 19 jewish years has exactly 235 months and can be 6939, 6940
6941 or 6942 days long

19 civil years can be 6939 or 6940 days.

Thus the difference can be up to three days in a 19 year period.

Daniel

FWIW

At KAJ/Breuer's - which uses old "minhag harishonim" Kedusah is responsive, with
the Shatz saying his part out loud, and the khal answering Kadosh etc. Nothing 
is repated out loud

When I was an Oveil, I once davened as Sahcta in the Breur-BM and I was told 
davka to say "Kaddosh" out loud again.   This was told to me by a nephew of the 
Rosh yehsiva, R. Meir Levi. Since this psak deviated from the "mother shul", I 
found it a bit difficult...

Until years later when the discrepancy was explained:

In the KAJ main shul, they wait for the Rav to finish.  Therefore it is PRESUMED
that the Shatz need NOT say anything out loud on behalf of mispallelim. (IOW 
even though there might actually be several exceptions, ruba d'ruba are 
finished.)

OTOH in the BM many mispallelim are ma'arich longer than the baalei Batim in the
main shul.  In the BM, therefore, they are chosheish for a "significant miut" 
that might still be unifinshed with their amidah during kedushah; therefore the 
Shatz is requested to say it out loud fortheir benefit.

Rich Wolpoe


_________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ 
Subject: 3 questions (Go'al Yisrael out loud) 

I know of one shul in Philadelphia that specifically tells all "shatzim" 
that they must say all of kedusha out loud.  (The Rav of this shul happens 
to daven a long shemona esrai, and the shatz never waits for him [as per the 
Rav's instructions].  If the shatz wouldn't say kedusha out loud, this Rav 
would never be able to "participate" (through shmiah) in kedusha.

Gutten Chodesh and Freilechen Adar
Aryeh

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:19:19 -0500
> From: Alan Davidson <perzvi@juno.com>
> Subject: limiting posts
> 
> As an incentive to take certain discussions off list (especially the more
> incendiary or pointless ones), why don't  we institute posting limits per
> person per week -- if every listmember was limited even to 7 per week it
> would cut down on a lot of the bandwith and people would think twice or
> thrice about whether someone they wouldn't know from the Satmar Rebbe
> agreed or didn't agree with another such person.  

I don't think would be a good idea. Why deprive ourselves of many of the 
posts of RYGB and RHM which are some of the best posts on the list even 
though they may post more than that.

The only limitation I would suggest would be a limit of lines per post, with 
only the list  owner able to post longer ones.  If the software could be 
set up to reject all posts over a certain length it would get rid of the 
posts which include the entire issue as well as encourage more snipping.

If there is a truly worthwhile long item (and there have been some very 
informative articles that were definitely worthwhile bring down) one 
could e mail it to the Micha who would add it to the list.

There are actually two volumes of his book.  The copy my parents have
is from post WWII and has the introductions for both pre WWII (from
approx. 1932) and the new introduction.  It's quite shocking to read
them.

Anyway, the contents are simply fascinating.

Shoshana L. Boublil


----- Original Message -----
From: Avodah <owner-avodah@aishdas.org>
To: <avodah-digest@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 5:18 PM
Subject: Avodah V4 #344
> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:03:51 -0600
> From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> Subject: Re: interesting story
>
> Actually, R' Nissan Telushkin in Taharas Mayim quotes R' Dovid
Miller (a
> Slabodka talmid who was, I believe, in LA) with some deference - his
shiur
> of 40 se'ah is regarded, however, as too meykil (85 gallons). He
actually
> proposed building mikva'os as consoles and cabinets and provides
plans and
> drawings (I do not have the book, but have seen it). This is the
first I
> have heard of opposition.
>
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
> http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

*********************


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