Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 341

Monday, February 7 2000

• Homosexuality/moderation
• Re: Whither Avodah
• Re: the forum
• Not Appropriate for this Forum!
• Not Appropriate for this Forum!
• Re: Smoking and Halocho
• Unveiling and Shiur in Memory of Rav Yehudah Gershuni Zatsa"l
• Re: Smoking and Halocho
• Re: 3 unrelated questions
• education
• Re: education
• smoking
• Re: Avodah V4 #340
• Re: Wine
• Re: smoking ban
• Smoking - Humor alert
• Smoking
• Re: Smoking - Humor alert
• Rambam in Deyos - smoking
• smoking
• Perspective on smoking and halacha
• RE: Rambam in Deyos - smoking

Just because on pshat level things might seem to be unclear we learn out
that all non-procreative sexual relationships are forbidden -- are there
folks who unfortunately have such feelings and desires, even in the frum
community, yes -- but it is the behavior that is the aveirah.  

We also have to keep in mind that around a year or so ago someone was
removed from the list  partly for advocating for the acceptance of
homosexuality -- there is very little,. if anything constructive that can
be gained from debating this issue. 
 
>
> 
> Because??

Because -- this list takes as a given the legitimacy of halacha and the
halachic process including our Mesorah -- there are other approaches to
textual analysis of scripture and other lists (both non-orthodox Jewish
and straightforwardly academic) to which one can turn to discuss this
issue. 

I personally would be against moderation although we might want to
consider a bandwith limit per individual -- as I have seen done (or
imposed) on other lists I have been involved with. 
>

"Whither Avodah," indeed.

I was approached, very recently, by a person who expressed extreme 
dissatisfaction with the Orthodox community as a whole. This is someone who 
spent twenty educated adult years in various parts of the O world, across the 
spectrum. His dissatisfaction stemmed from difficulty finding people who were 
interested in actively constructing Derachim to get close to HaShem.

In the course of our conversation, I mentioned the Avodah list as something 
which was designed to deal with this kind of issue...and then I was forced to 
retract.

The Avodah charter says it should be an "open forum analysis of hashkafah, 
avodas Hashem, ta'amei hamitzvos, lomdus, machshavah, and halachah -- with an 
emphasis on the places where halachah, machshavah and hargashah meet." 

Avodah has become a chat room.

Yes, the discussions center on Torah topics, and yes, there is a lot of good 
information exchanged. I have learned things here. At the same time, there is 
altogether too much shooting-from-the-hip, reliance on one-line 
rebuttals/rejections/witticisms, and unresearched responding, for this to 
qualify as a place to send knowledgeable people who have serious questions.

I don't have an answer. I don't think Micha has the time for a moderated 
list, even if people want it. Alll I know is that when I saw I couldn't 
recommend Avodah to  person who needed precisely what Avodah purports to 
provide, I knew it was time for this post.

Mordechai
Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf

 I have made a mistake about the tosfot of not going to eretz yisrael it
is not in sanhedren but in kesubot daf 110.
moti2@juno.com

________________________________________________________________
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> Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 13:10:56 EST
> From: TROMBAEDU@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Not Appropriate for this Forum! Homosexuality & Judaism

<< Actually, our group has an obligation to discuss issues that touch on
Social, Moral, and political, aspects of Torah and society, Especially
when it involves the use of seemingly legitimate methods to arrive at a
conclusion clearly at odds with our Mesorah. >>

	The foundation of this list is allegiance to our Mesorah.  If the
"seemingly legitimate methods"  lead to conclusions otherwise,  clearly, 
for purposes of admissibility to the list,  the end "unjustifies" the
means.  I agree 100 % with RYGB's assessment,  even if the topic were
other than M"S.  Since that topic itself was declared off limits for
other reasons that makes the inadmissibility of this particular post
especially offensive.

Gershon

> Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 15:40:54 -0600
> From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> Subject: Whither Avodah
 
<< I have changed my views on the nature of our discussion group. This is
an open letter to Micha asking that he moderate the list (i.e., screen
postings before they go out to the group).>>

	I agree in principle if only because this trash got through.  But I
hesitate to subject Micha to this,  both for his personal time and for
the damper it will put on the list.

Gershon

----- Original Message ----- > Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 06:16:56 -0600
> From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> Subject: Re: Smoking and Halocho
>
> I have seen, read and given shiur on these teshuvos of the ALR and
TE (CH 51
> in the Brandman Tape Library) and concluded, subsequent to that
research,
> that there is still no halachic basis for a ban (psak or takkana) on
> smoking.

Good for you, but these 2 Gedolim did pasken Le'Esor.

> But, let me ask you, seeing that one major Ashkenazi and one major
Sefardi
> posek each declared smoking to be assur, how much impact do you
think that
> has? It certainly confirms the self righteousness of us non-smokers
:-) ,
> but how many smokers do you think these teshuvos have convinced to
quit?

Rav HaLevy, in his shu"t mentions that as a result of his paskening
this on public TV in 1976, he recevied many many letters of thanks
from people who found the strength to quit smoking after hearing his
psak.

I know that in Bnei Akiva Yeshivot smoking is less prevalent than it
was 20 years ago, though  I couldn't say if it is b/c of western
influence or b/c of these shu"t.  The reason is that teachers and
rabbis who smoke won't present these shu"t to their students....

Shoshana L. Boublil



>
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
> http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

On Tuesday 9 Adar I, February 15, there will be a Gilui Matseva for
HRH"G Rav Yehudah Gershuni Zatsa"l at Har HaZeitim Cemetery. The family
will be leaving from the Gershuni home (46 Tchernechovsky, Jerusalem)
for the cemetery at 2:30 PM. 
	That evening there will be a memorial shiur in his memory at Heikhal
Shelomo at 5 PM.
	Yehi zikhro barukh uTNZB"H.
		Talmido
			Aryeh Frimer

I'm wondering about the differentiation between smoking and other scientific 
"facts". In an earlier gilgul we had a long discussion about scientific 
"facts" from the time of the gemora or poskim that modern science believes 
are no longer correct understandings.  There was a sgnificant school of 
thought to discount these perceived changes for halachik purposes. Do those 
who hold from this school believe smoking is a different case and if so why? 
Is it a pragmatic issue or a non-symetric application(ie only "lchumrah") or 
something else?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

1.Does anyone know of any written source for giving tzedaka during chazarat 
hashatz?

2. Does anyone know of any written sources for the Shatz not saying goal 
yisrael out loud before the amida?

3. Is there a halachik hakpada for davening with a minyan that is your nusach 
versus a different nusach?(eg if there's a nusach sfard minyan at a more 
convenient time or closer to my office how much, if at all, out of the way do 
I need to go to attend a nusach ashkenaz minyan)

Chodesh tov
Joel RIch

> 
> > My conclusion is that therefore education is more important than
> > stopping someone who has been smoking for 50 years.  While some yeshivot
> > have stopped smoking in the bet medrash it still exists in many other
> > places.  So I feel that the most important value to a ban by gedolim is
> > that it might force roshei yehivot to outlaw for the young. 
> > 
> 
> Your argument is good, but does not support your conclusion. rather than a
> ban, education is important. To the best of my knowledge, the education
> available to the general community is as available to the Orthodox community.

The problem is that many in the yeshiva world don't care what the surgeon
general has to say. If rosheo yeshivot would prohibit smoking for the
kids both inside and outside the bet medrash it would have a great impact
on the kids. Nothing is perfect but many less would smoke.
When my kids went to Bnei Akiva yeshivot and hesder relatively few kids
smoked. There were always the exceptions but it was frowned on by most.

Eli Turkel

But when I first got to Sha'alvim, there were still ashtrays in the BM.

What happened is not the result of the Hesder Roshei Yeshiva pronouncing an
issur or ban on smoking.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2000 7:51 AM
Subject: education


> The problem is that many in the yeshiva world don't care what the surgeon
> general has to say. If rosheo yeshivot would prohibit smoking for the
> kids both inside and outside the bet medrash it would have a great impact
> on the kids. Nothing is perfect but many less would smoke.
> When my kids went to Bnei Akiva yeshivot and hesder relatively few kids
> smoked. There were always the exceptions but it was frowned on by most.
>
> Eli Turkel
>

Daniel Levine wrote (V4#338)
"Why can't we just acknowledge that many in the frum
community are just plain igmorant, unsophisticated
and/or uncaring when it comes to MODERN medical
knowledge and concerns."

Similiarly, over 10 yrs ago I was driving from NY to Balt w/ 
R' Shragi Neuberger, at a rest stop we saw some bochurim 
smoking - R' Shragi commented that you will hardly ever see 
guys from NIRC smoking and he felt that perhaps the more you 
remove yourself from the "outside" world, the less you pay 
attention to things even such as the dangers of smoking... 

As an aside, I was told that the B'nei Yissoscher (Toras B'nei Yissoscher
on Yisro ) says that Lo Sinaf would include anything done from 
taavoh that damages the guf

kol tuv
Sender Baruch

R' Josh (backon@vms.huji.ac.il), wrote (Avodah V4 # 340, Sun,  6 Feb
2000 13:11 +0200)

<<No medical authority talks about the dangers of meat and fish ? :-)
Access
//alltheweb.com  for keywords: backon@vms.huji.ac.il fish meat  and
you'll
see my postings on MAIL-JEWISH precisely on this subject. There's a
potential
interaction between omega-6 fatty acids (in fish) and stearic acid (in
beef)
that can affect prostaglandin synthesis and thus may be behind the
increased
insulin resistance found in those taking omega-6 fatty acids. Whether
conjugated linolenic acid in milk affects fish oil is another
matter.>>

I would assume the original post was referring to eating meat and fish
together in the halachic sense.  Whatever the medical evidence on fatty
acids and prostaglandins &c., I don't think interrupting their
co-consumption with a shot of schnapps or a piece of challah or
something would circumvent the biochemical danger, though it does
obviate the halachic problems.

Kol Tuv.
David Eisenman

There is a machlokes among the poskim regarding how hot wine has to be to be 
considered mevushal.  I believe that R. Moshe Feinstein paskens that it must be 
only yad soledes bo (appr. 113-120 fahrenheit) while the Tzelemer Rav has a much
higher temperature.

A member of the Kashrus Information Center (KIC) told me that all wines today in
America reach yad soledes bo during the pasteurization process and therefore all
wines are mevushal according to R. Moshe regardles of the labelling.  This was 
told to me as a chumra regarding the Rambam's shitah of not using mevushal wine 
for kiddush or 4 kosos.

Again I  re-iterate my point that Gedolim/Chazal need not speak up when others 
are already talking

Apparently Cahzla DID speak up in cases  - such as fish and meat - where society
was not aware of the danger

Frankly, I do not know the specfic danger here, I beleive Josh Backon has 
elabroated on this.

Bottom line, it IS reasonable for chazal to speak out if virtually NODOBY else 
is (hence the ban on the internet, etc.)

Rich wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: smoking ban 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    2/5/2000 10:13 PM


Regarding smoking, sakana, etc...

We do not each fish and meat together,   The gemora states that it is a 
sekana.


/af

______________________________________________________ 
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Once there was a rabbinical convention including all streams of Judaism.  The 
only point they could agree on was that smoking should be banned.

A reporter from Oshkosh came to interview the 3 local rabbis. and lo and behold 
they were all out on the veranda smoking!

Reporter: How can you be smoking when Judaism prohibits it?

R Rabbi: Truly Judaism does prohibit it, but these matter are left up to an 
individual's conscience as to how to implement them in practice...


Reporter: How can you be smoking when Judaism prohibits it?
C Rabbi:  Smoking is prohibited but under duress, such as when one is on the 
road, one is allowed to bend the halacha and to smoke, Since I am out of town at
a convention, therefore I am allowed to smoke 

Reporter: How can you be smoking when Judaism prohibits it?
O Rabbi: True but I sold my lungs to a goy!


Richard_Wolpoe@ibic.om

	1) In regards to smoking, there is another possible issur which
noone seems to have touched on-that is the issur of chovel es atzmo. There
seem to be 2 reasons why it is assur to hurt ones self. The Gemara in Baba
Kama 91B says the issur of hachovel es atzmo is based on the statement of R'
Eliezer Hakafar that it is assur to cause pain to yourself. The Rambam
however, doesn't bring this down, but rathewr he learns that it falls under
the issur of "lo yoseif". Based on the reason in the gemara it would seem
you could not assur smoking since there is no pain involved-adaraba the
smoker receives great han'aah. However, acc to the Rambam one could make the
arguement that there is an issur. The only question is how you would
interpet the Rambam. The loshon of the Ramabm is that it is assur to cause a
wound in a person as well as hit a person "derech nitzayon" (which I assume
means with a intent to hurt). The question is does derech nitzayon refer
only to hitting (without causing a wound) or even to chabalah. Rav Moshe in
a tesuva on cosmetic surgery feels the issur of chabalah is also only if it
is derech nitzayon-therefore he mattirs cosmetic surgery. According to this
mehalech, one could not assur smoking. However, if you learn "derech
nitzayon" is only referring to hitting, than one could argue that smoking
damages a person's body and a person is over on hachovel es atzmo. 
         Derech Agav-if one is over on hachovel es atzmo is he chayav
malkos?

        2) In terms of  how to understand the Rambam in Hilchos Deios I am
not sure why Rabbi Chaim Brown feels that the Rambam is referring to the
issur of v'nishmartem. If he is referring to that issur shouldn't he put
these halachos in hilchos rotzeiach? Furthermore, the whole crux of the
Ramabm is to explain how one should walk "b'derech hashem". In Perek 2 he
explains the mitzvas asseh of "V'halachta B'derachov" and in Perek 3 he
explains the idea of "b'chol diracheha dei'aihu". Then in Perek 4 he writes
that one who does not keep himself healthy is not going "bederech hashem". I
am not sure if Perek 3 and Perek 4 is a continuation of the mitzvas aseh of
"V'halachta B'derachov" but al kol panim I don't think he is referring to
the issur of "v'nishmartem".
	Interestingly, Rav Moshe in his teshuva in which he mattirs smoking
(written in 1981) learns the Ramabm like RYGB wants to learn it-that there
is no issur involved for eating unhealthy foods. Therefore, the idea of
"Shomer Pesaim Hashem" would apply here. Rav Moshe feels there is not enough
evidence in regards to smoking (since majority people who smoke don't die)
to say that smoking should fall under the issur of "vnishmartem" as
mentioned in Hilchos Rotzeiach and therefore it is equated with those things
mentioned in hilchos daios about which we could say Shomer Pesaim Hashem. If
one wishes to be medayek in Rav Moshe one could say that if there would be
conclusive evidence that smoking is harmful and deadly taht it would fall
under the issur of vnishmartem in hilchos rotzeiach (not like RYGB). 

The story is told that an old yiddele once walked Prof. Louis Ginzberg of
JTS into a high rise apartment building on Shabbos. The yiddele asked his
companion: "Rabbi, is it permitted to ride the elevator in this building on
Shabbos?" The professor replied that it was forbidden. So the old man huffs
and puffs up the stairs to his destination, arriving out of breath, finding,
standing there and perfectly relaxed, Prof. Ginzberg. In amazement, he asks:
"But Rabbi, didn't you say it was forbidden to ride the elevator?" Ginzberg
responded: "Yes, it is."

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2000 9:24 AM
Subject: Smoking - Humor alert


> Once there was a rabbinical convention including all streams of Judaism.
The
> only point they could agree on was that smoking should be banned.
>
> A reporter from Oshkosh came to interview the 3 local rabbis. and lo and
behold
> they were all out on the veranda smoking!
>
> Reporter: How can you be smoking when Judaism prohibits it?
>
> R Rabbi: Truly Judaism does prohibit it, but these matter are left up to
an
> individual's conscience as to how to implement them in practice...
>
>
> Reporter: How can you be smoking when Judaism prohibits it?
> C Rabbi:  Smoking is prohibited but under duress, such as when one is on
the
> road, one is allowed to bend the halacha and to smoke, Since I am out of
town at
> a convention, therefore I am allowed to smoke
>
> Reporter: How can you be smoking when Judaism prohibits it?
> O Rabbi: True but I sold my lungs to a goy!
>
>
> Richard_Wolpoe@ibic.om
>
>
>
>

>>>1) In regards to smoking, there is another possible issur which noone seems to have touched on-that is the issur of chovel es atzmo. <<<

No, for the same reason I wrote that is prob. is not m'abed atzmo l'da'at.  Violation of these issurim needs a ma'aseh - that's why gerama is patur.  Since smoking does not produce immediate effects, you could prob. classify it as gerama.  However, guarding ones health focusses not on the specific act, but on the overall effect.  
  
>>>      2) In terms of  how to understand the Rambam in Hilchos Deios I am not sure why Rabbi Chaim Brown feels that the Rambam is referring to the issur of v'nishmartem. If he is referring to that issur shouldn't he put these halachos in hilchos rotzeiach? Furthermore, the whole crux of the Ramabm is to explain how one should walk "b'derech hashem". <<<

I never claimed the Rambam in Deyos is referring to v'nishmartem.  It could very well be pointing to v'halachta b'derachav.  The bottom line is the Rambam says not to endanger one's health - categorize as whatever issur you like. 

I think this subject has been hacked to death by this point.

Rav Bechhofer has two major objections to takkanot against smoking
1) It isn't assur.
2) We lack the power to make the takkanot.
I agree with both of those positions.  However, there is a still a good
argument for some form of public declaration in the RW (when R Atwood
and Rav Bechhofer can decide on the term they like for the RW, I will
gladly change tems...:).
(by the way, I say RW for two reasons.  First, such a pronouncement
would be more effective in the RW than MO camp.  Second, empiric
observation suggests that much of MO in America has, in line with its
secular socioeconomic counterpart, reduced smoking, and that it remains
far more of a problem in the RW community)

While we lack the power to make takanot for the general community, it is
striking that so many takanot have been promulgated in the RW
community.  The recent internet "ban", the newly discussed ban on lavish
weddings, etc., suggest that whenever a major social problem is
perceived by the leadership of at least some communities, they address
it through a ban, or at least through public pronouncements.    If one
responds to social problems with pronouncements by the leadership, the
question remains is why the leadership has not spoken out on smoking?
while utter bans are ineffective, social pressures do cut down
dramatically on smoking. .

Rav Bechhofer has also claimed that the solution to smoking is
education, and the RW has as much source to general educational
materials as anyone else.  However, this is disingenuous.  While Rav
Bechhofer is well read, one of the major intellectual distinguishing
marks of much of the RW is its generally negative attitude towards much
of secular culture.  This includes negative attitudes towards reading
newspapers, with an inherent suspicion towards unapproved sources.

This inherently means that an educational campaign that has not been
approved by the leadership of the community will be suspect, even if the
goals are acceptable and no one seriously doubts the information.
 Thus, any educational campaign among the community is doomed unless it
gets the haskama (preferably public) of its gedolim. (When the burn
center at NYsHospital saw an increased number of serious burns in RW
families related to yomtov and shabbat, they started an educational
campaign for fire safety targeting the Orthodox community.  My
recollection is that they realized that they first needed rabbinic
approval) Has there been any such educational programs about smoking??
Would Rav Bechhofer support a public haskama for an educational
antismoking campaign targeted at the RW?

Meir Shinnar

Underlying the discussion about a possible rabbinic prohibition of smoking
is a broader question.  Modern medicine's conclusions about what is
dangerous (sakana) differ from those mentioned by chazal.  Eating meat
together with fish is not seen as hazardous while smoking is. The nature of
modern medicine is to constantly reexamine and to modify earlier views
while our halachic behavior remains static. 
 This touches on the deeper question of how and when to integrate current
scientific knowledge into halacha.  Should DNA evidence be accepted in a
Rabbinical court?  What if it contradicts eyewitness testimony from two
witnesses?  The Rambam rejects the science of his time when it contradicted
the halachic definition of treifah, which is based on a halacha l'moshe
misinai (hilchos shechita 10;11,12).  Yet in hilchos rotzeach u'shmiras
nefesh 2;8 he defines a human tereifah as one whom the doctors conclude
will certainly die from a particular wound.  
The topic is complex but must be confronted if we are fully committed to
halacha and do not reject modern medicine and science.
Sincerely,
Yosef Blau 

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> >>>1) In regards to smoking, there is another possible issur which noone
> seems to have touched on-that is the issur of chovel es atzmo. <<<
	RCB wrote:
	<<No, for the same reason I wrote that is prob. is not m'abed atzmo
l'da'at.  Violation of these issurim needs a ma'aseh - that's why gerama is
patur.  Since smoking does not produce immediate effects, you could prob.
classify it as gerama.  However, guarding ones health focusses not on the
specific act, but on the overall effect.  >>
>   It should depend on what happens each time you smoke. It's possible that
> there is tissue/lung  damage after each cigarette. Even if it is less than
> a shaveh perutah there is still an issur. Ain hachi nami in terms of
> retzichah it is probably a gerama but in regards to the issur of chavalah
> I'm not so sure. 
> 

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&gt;&gt;1) In regards to smoking, =
there is another possible issur which noone seems to have touched =
on-that is the issur of chovel es atzmo. &lt;&lt;&lt;</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">RCB wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">&lt;&lt;</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">No, for the =
same reason I wrote that is prob. is not m'abed atzmo l'da'at.&nbsp; =
Violation of these issurim needs a ma'aseh - that's why gerama is =
patur.&nbsp; Since smoking does not produce immediate effects, you =
could prob. classify it as gerama.&nbsp; However, guarding ones health =
focusses not on the specific act, but on the overall =
effect.&nbsp;</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&gt;</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">It should depend on what happens each time you =
smoke. It's possible that there is tissue/lung&nbsp; damage after each =
cigarette. Even if it is less than a shaveh perutah there is still an =
issur. Ain hachi nami in terms of retzichah it is probably a gerama but =
in regards to the issur of chavalah I'm not so sure.</FONT> </P>
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