Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 338

Saturday, February 5 2000

• smoking
• Smoking
• Smoking
• FW: Avodah V4 #337
• Re: FW: Avodah V4 #337
• smoking & bans
• Re: Smoking
• Re: smoking & bans
• Re: safek sakkanah
• Re:Making Aliyah To save Your Children
• Re: Avodah V4 #336
• Re: Safek Sakkonas Nefashos
• New takana in Israel prohibiting lavish weddings
• Re: smoking ban
• RE: smoking
• Smoking
• Re: smoking

This debate reminds me of a story that happened to a fellow Talmid of mine 
when I was in the Mesivta of Long Beach about 15 years ago.  This boy smoked 
regularly (although the yeshiva forbid this activity strictly) and he usually 
smoked at night in the street so noone should see him.  A goy once drove up to 
him and asked him if he was one of those "rabbinical students.  when he 
responded in the affirmative, he asked, "doesn't the bible require you to 
guard your health?"
I personally think that Chillul Hashem alone is enough of a reason to prhibit 
smoking.
Also, let me add that we are not asking the rabbinate to "ban" smoking, one 
can arguably state that they do not have this athority, however, from a 
halachic perspective I think that there is enough reason to argue that it is 
assur without a gezeirah at all, for Venishmartem reasons and for chillul 
hashem reasons and many others.
Shaul weinreb

OK; I agree.  How about a "moral and persuasive"
pronouncement!!!!

A few dear people I knew would still be alive today if
such a pronouncement came out when they were teens in
yeshiva. 

___________________________________________
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:08:43 -0600
From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject: Re: Smoking Ban

Correct. The only binding authority of any modern
rabbinic announcment
is
moral and persuasive, not legislative.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL
60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Levine <daniel2121_99@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 9:22 AM
Subject: Smoking Ban


>
> Thanks RYGB! This is great!!!! I now have a basis
for
> not abiding by the rabbinical internet ban since it
is
> "bereft of any binding authority"!!!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

Why can't we just acknowledge that many in the frum
community are just plain igmorant, unsophisticated
and/or uncaring when it comes to MODERN medical
knowledge and concerns.

Look, I can guarantee you that there are more morbidly
obese men and heavy smokers in some of the small botei
midrash/minyanim that I frequent than in my entire
firm of several hundred attorneys. 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

	How would you classify marijuana and other drug use?
	According to your reasoning the yshould be muttar also-it is only a
sefeik sakkonas nefashos. However, I believe Rav Moshe has a teshuva in
which he clearly forbids it.

> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:58:05 -0600
> From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
> <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> Subject: Safek Sakkonas Nefashos
> 
> I apologize for writing from memory, but it is pretty easy to sustain the
> argument that safek sakonas nefashos is only forbidden when there is clear
> and present danger, such as the archetypical case of Reish Lakish in the
> Yerushalmi Terumos going to rescue captives from their captors - which was
> only permitted for RL because of his past experience.
> 
> Another time safek sakonas nefashos (ssn) is permitted is for parnassa.
> One
> is allowed to be misparnes as, say, a deep sea diver or a redwood tree
> trimmer despite the inherent sakono.
> 
> The prohibition of long term SSN, as in smoking, is dubious. Unhealthy
> behavior is frowned upon, but not forbidden. Indeed, remember that the
> Gemara says in Tamid (I believe) that doctors were always present in the
> Beis HaMikdosh because Kohanim ate unhealthy diets and walked around
> barefoot in the winter, and were perenially ill. Yet this is obviously
> laudable behavior. The tanna R' Tzadok fasted for forty years, making his
> health quite precarious, but he is not criticized for that.
> 
> While smoking is generally not a mitzva (although the stories of the Besht
> and his pipe might belie that), that chilluk is not mechalek. Al
> ha'machmir
> l'hovi ra'ayos.
> 
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
> http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org
> 
> 

I do not recall R' Moshe's teshuva off hand, although I have seen it. DDMD
prohibits marijuana use.

On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Markowitz, Chaim wrote:

> 
> 	How would you classify marijuana and other drug use? 
> 	According to your reasoning the yshould be muttar also-it is
> only a sefeik sakkonas nefashos. However, I believe Rav Moshe has a
> teshuva in which he clearly forbids it. 
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

> 
> RET makes the point, valid of course, that a rabbinic pronouncement would
> have the moral and persuasive authority of the rabbis who sign it, just as
> other rabbinic pronouncements.
> 
> But, here, RRW's point is very important, and must be expanded. We know from
> the grand social experiment of Prohibition in the USA that such endeavors
> are bound to failure. Massive legislation of that sort has a way of
> backfiring. The only reason why by drugs the legislation, has ineffective as
> it is, still works to a limited extent, is because drugs were never freely
> available and widely used to the extent that alchohol and tobacco were and
> still largely are.
> 

My conclusion is that therefore education is more important than stopping
someone who has been smoking for 50 years.
While some yeshivot have stopped smoking in the bet medrash it still
exists in many other places.
So I feel that the most important value to a ban by gedolim is that it
might force roshei yehivot to outlaw for the young.

Eli Turkel

On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Daniel Levine wrote:

> Why can't we just acknowledge that many in the frum
> community are just plain igmorant, unsophisticated
> and/or uncaring when it comes to MODERN medical
> knowledge and concerns.
> 
> Look, I can guarantee you that there are more morbidly
> obese men and heavy smokers in some of the small botei
> midrash/minyanim that I frequent than in my entire
> firm of several hundred attorneys. 
> 

It is precisely because I do not agree with such prejudicial statemts.
Substitute the word "black" for "frum" in your note and read it back to
yourself.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Your argument is good, but does not support your conclusion. rather than a
ban, education is important. To the best of my knowledge, the education
available to the general community is as available to the Orthodox
community.

On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Eli Turkel wrote:

> My conclusion is that therefore education is more important than
> stopping someone who has been smoking for 50 years.  While some yeshivot
> have stopped smoking in the bet medrash it still exists in many other
> places.  So I feel that the most important value to a ban by gedolim is
> that it might force roshei yehivot to outlaw for the young. 
> 
> Eli Turkel
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

>>>The prohibition of long term SSN, as in smoking, is dubious. Unhealthy behavior is frowned upon, but not forbidden. Indeed, remember that the Gemara says in Tamid (I believe) that doctors were always present in the Beis HaMikdosh because Kohanim ate unhealthy diets and walked around barefoot in the winter, and were perenially ill.<<<

Because the avodah must be done barefoot and there is a mitzva of achilas kodshim which overrides health concerns.  Other examples: The mitzva of milah entails certain sakkana; obviously the fact that the Torah commands milah teaches that the danger of operating on a child is outweighed by the tzivuy (Avnei Nezer).  Similarly, sakanas nefashos does not get one out the mitzva of milchama because the tzivuy by its very nature entails a risk of life that is outweighed by the tzivuy.  B'makom miztva there are overriding concerns; one cannot draw any conclusions from that to other contexts. 

>>>The tanna R' Tzadok fasted for forty years, making his health quite precarious, but he is not criticized for that.<<<

But we do know that there is a machlokes tanaim/amoraim if fasting for no need is correct, 'kol hayoshev b'ta'anis nikra choteih'.  See the lashon HaRambam 3:4 - 'assuru chachamim sh-yehei adam misagef atzmo b'ta'anis'.  In light of that it is hard to bring proof from R' Tzaddok's actions as a yachid to anything. 

-Chaim

   I believe  tofos says in Sanhedrin that people should not live in
Eretz Yisrael since there are so many laws that apply there and not in
Chutz Laaretz(outside Israel)so we will inadverntly sin so it is better
not to go.  

moti2@juno.com

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

Rav Valdenberg in Shu"t Tzitz Eliezer, also states that smoking should
be banned, and certainly in public in the presence of others, in
Section 15 Siman 39 where he says "Shaffir Ki Yesh Makom Le'esore
Ishun Al Pi Din Torah".  This shu"t is addressed to Dr. Eli Yosef
Shoheim and is dated Erev Shabbat, Gimel Adar Tshm"v (1982).


He also quotes the Chafetz Chaim as being totally against smoking as
is brought in ,Likutei Amarim chapter 13 and in Zachor LeMiryam
chapter 23.

The Shu"t (as did Rav HaLevy's) brings sources for Issur from the
G'mara and Rambam and I recommend studying them.

Shavu'a Tov,

Shoshana L. Boublil

The Nishmat Avraham (YD 349 #4) discusses the permissibility of volunteering
for a medical experiment or therapeutic clinical trial. As long as the odds
are low that any serious danger will ensue, then it's *lichora* OK to
volunteer.

Josh

I just read over shabbat that leading Litvishe roshei yeshivot will
very shortly be coming out with a takana prohibiting lavish weddings.
Briefly: no more than 250 guests at $10/plate, no more than 3 members
in the band, and a categorical prohibition on the parents to purchase
an apartment for the young couple during the first 5 years of marriage
(after 5 years, they can purchase an apartment costing no more than
$90,000).

The reason for this ? Families were going bankrupt and living on the
poverty line to throw a lavish wedding and buy an apartment for each
daughter. There were reports of fathers dropping dead of a massive
heart attack either in the middle of an aliya (aufruf) or while
shnorring abroad.  At least the Gerrer Rebbe came out 10 years ago with
similar prohibition.

Josh

As someone (Carl?) mentioned studying in a Beti Midrash where people
smoke, I think it would be of interest to see Rav Feinstein's shu"t on
the subject in Choshen U'Mishpat B, siman 18 where he forbids smoking
in a shul or Beit Midrash if there is someone there who is bothered by
it.

Shoshana L. Boublil

> > Maybe you can explain how you understand ushmartem es 
> nafshoseichem?  Or
> the Rambam in Deyos 3:1 - 'tzarich ha'adam
> > l'harchik et etzmo m'dvarim ham'abdin et haguf?
> >
> I understand the pasuk to refer to G-d's incorporeality.
> 

I think I'm missing something here -- could you explain?

Akiva



A reality check a day keeps 
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274  

   Those interested in the issue of smoking should look at for example:

Kuntras Zechor Miryam 23 (from the Chofetz Chaim)
Lekkutei Amorim 13 (from the Chofetz Chaim)
Shut. Igros Moshe Y.D. 2:49; C.M. 2:76
Shut. Tzitz Eliezer 15:39; 21:14 (where HaRav Valdenburg does indeed
prohibit smoking).

For many years now I have responded to my ba'al ha-batim and other
questioners, that given our current understanding of the dangers inherent in
smoking, anyone who smokes violates the Mitzvas  Aseh of v'nishmartem as
well as the precept of ba'al tashchis.

   There is no question in my mind that al pi halacha, cigarette smoking is
prohibited on Yom Tov. This assuming, of course, that its is permitted at
other times (which is, to says the least, quite an assumption). The Torah
(Shemos 12:16) says,"...no manner of work shall be done on them, except that
which is eaten by every person, that alone may be done by you." Thus, as is
well known, preparation of food is permitted on Yom Tov. The Gemara (Beitzah
12a) says that activities associated with the preparation of food are
permitted even when such activities are not undertaken for culinary purposes
(m'toch she-hutra). However, elsewhere (Kesuvos 7a) notes that the Torah's
example of food preparation described as required by "every person" is
paradigmatic in the sense that the permitted forms of melacha may be
performed only for similar purposes, i.e., for needs which are shaveh l'chol
nefesh, common to every person. Thus for example, although cooking and the
burning of fuel is permissible on Yom Tov, spices or incense may not be
placed over burning coal. The same would apply to the issue of smoking on
Yom Tov, i.e., since under contemporary conditions most people do not smoke
it may no longer be sanctioned. Indeed, Korban Nesanel (Beitzah 2:10), Magen
Avraham (514:4) and Chayei Adom (95:13), among others, prohibit smoking on
Yom Tov. Since there have always been significant numbers of non-smokers,
they maintain that smoking is not an activity that is shaveh l'chol nefesh.
Korban Nesanel castigates those who smoke on Yom Tov declaring that smoking
is certainly no more widespread than was burning of incense during the
Talmudic period. It is to be assumed that those Poskim who, in the past,
have permitted smoking on Yom Tov, did so because smoking was, at that time,
considered shaveh l'chol nefesh. See Bi'ur Halacha 511:4

As an aside, tobacco was first implicated as a cause of cancer in 1761. In
1897 an article appeared in the Journal of the Russian National Health
Society (reported in Lancet 2:952, 1897) linking smoking with respiratory
problems. When a person smokes, nicotine doubles, triples, and quadruples
the amount of adrenaline in the circulation. This means that the heart rate
quickens, blood pressure rises, and the heart demands more oxygen in
response to the additional chemical stress. Carbon Monoxide attacks
hemoglobin, the main oxygen carrier in the blood. In fact, CO clings to
hemoglobin with 250 times the tenacity that oxygen does. 

B'virkas HaTorah

Y. Dovid Kaye

In message , richard_wolpoe@org.com writes
>So why stop at smoking
>
>1) Requiring Mammograms for women and prostate exams for men!
>
>2) Ban on shoveling snow frot those over 40  (I'm hoping that this catches on 
>because we have had a lot of sonw lately! <smile>)
>
>3) Prohibit Gribenes
>
>4) How about driving on Purim?
>
>5) Driving Corvairs 
>
>6) Driving without seatbelts or infant carseats.
>
>7) Riding the NYC Subway system
>
>You get the idea.
>

Well.  The standard answer would be to look at the number of deaths per
year from the activity in question and at some point make a judgement
that situation was so serious it merited responses.  And then you would
need to look at what the secular society was doing about it.

For example, not wearing seatbelts.  In just about every Western country
in the world, with the lone exception of some places in the US, not
wearing seatbelts is illegal.  Dina d'malchusa dina (and the prospect of
a severe fine) seems mostly to be a sufficient of a deterent.  In those
states in the US that believe that the constitutional right to get
oneself killed overrides the powers of the government, one might expect
some rabbinical action, but those places are limited (and most of the
population has taken the necessity of seat belt wearing on board).
Hence, I think you will find, today, that the numbers of people dying
because they were not wearing seatbelts is small, because most people
do.

In contrast, the two big killers today (in number terms) where some
simple actions can dramatically reduce the numbers of deaths are as
follows:

a) lung cancer and related deaths (including heart attack) - reducing
smoking; and 

b) deaths on the roads - reduced by limiting speed and drunk driving.

As anybody who has every been there knows, Australia is very much at the
forefront in trying to limit deaths among its population by means of
government advertising - and these two, as well as AIDs prevention, have
been the focus, because they a) affect the greatest numbers of people
and b) have relatively simple prescriptions.

In Melbourne, just as you drive down St Kilda road from the city towards
the main Jewish area, there is (or was for many years) a government
sponsored board which included a counter which listed the number of
people dying in Australia from smoking (I think each year).  The counter
went up every few seconds and the numbers were huge.

The other similar (and original) counter was for people killed on the
roads - but as the Victorian (state of Australia) government managed to
reduce the numbers of people killed on the roads down to the level of
the 1950's, mainly by an attack on speed (anybody who has seen the
"speed kills" advertisments can testify to their effectiveness), I think
they switched the counter over to smoking as the greatest preventable
danger threatening Australian health.

Now, if they managed to eliminate all the other dangers, maybe the
Australian government would spend money on trying to prevent 40 year
olds from shovelling snow, but even in places in which there is snow
(not much of Australia!) the risk is small by comparision.  

Now, I do not have (or have access to) the figures for Jews (or for that
matter Orthodox Jews) around the world.  But assuming they do not differ
markedly from the figures that have been cited for Australians, I would
guess that the largest numbers of deaths from a single preventable cause
would be caused either by smoking or from car accidents at speed.
However it is difficult to have much of an effect on speed if you just
focus on Jews (and especially on frum Jews) because in most countries
(ie excepting Israel) for a campaign to be effective in lowering the
death rate on the roads it must reduce the speed of all drivers, Jewish,
non Jewish, frum, non frum.

Thus in looking for the most significant killer of frum Jews where
actions focussed solely on the frum community could have an effect in
lowering the death rate, I believe you end up with one clear winner -
smoking.

So if you hold that Gedolim should ever be concerned about saving the
physical lives of frum Jews (as opposed to their spiritual lives), then
smoking is the obvious place to start.

Of course, in every case, there are people who walk out unharmed.  Rabbi
Akiva, famously, was unharmed by the Pardes.  *Some* people are clearly
spiritually unharmed by television, the internet, out of town college
etc.  Mostly one's thinking is affected by numbers.  If the ratio with
the Pardes was found to be the case (ie 75% failure rate, and that among
scholars), most people would regard that as a pretty serious spiritual
danger.  If, on the other hand, 1 in 1000 went off the derech, most
people, I suspect, would take the attitude that the problem is with the
1 in 1000, and not be inclined to ban it for everybody else.

The same issue comes up here and it relates to numbers.  Let's say the
numbers were that *everybody* who smoked lost 20-40 years off their
life.  Should the Gedolim speak up then if people were still smoking?
If your answer is yes, then the question becomes one of degree - at what
level does the danger caused by smoking become an "acceptable" danger
(50%, 40%, 30% of people affected?)

Most of us agree that life involves dangers, and you cannot eliminate
them (my house could collapse and fall in on me).  Thus I think most
people make an assessment of what is a "reasonable" danger to take on
(most people exclude bungee jumping, some do not).  The problem comes
when people make assessments of certain dangers that are not in
accordance with the actual reality, as presented by the hard statistics.
If they over estimate the danger, it usually won't matter (bungee
jumping is supposed to be, statistically, extremely safe, but you still
won't catch me doing it).

The problem with smoking seems to be that many people, especially young
people, do not make realistic assessments of the dangers, which are
actually quite high (ie greatest killer where single change of behaviour
on the part of the individual can alter the statistics).  This is why
most people assume that if there is ever a mandate for Gedolim to make
statements that relate to the physical wellbeing of their community -
this would be the primary candidate.

Alternative arguments against this are a) Gedolim deal with spiritual,
not physical welfare, they leave the latter to the doctors, the Surgeon
General etc - *no matter how serious the physical dangers* (although
presumably everybody agrees that when the physical danger becomes as
great as it did in the time of Haman, a Mordechai is required to act);
or b) Gedollim cannot do anything (physical or spiritual) in the absence
of a Sanhedrin (this appears to be RYGB's argument, although he seemed
to be arguing the opposite in the Rav Elyashiv and the Jewish Registry
discussion).  But comparing smoking to other physical dangers, is, from
what I understand of the statistics, not a very potent argument.



>I think the Gedolim have a sense what IS their business and what is not.
>How about this, why not require anyone who wishes to smoke consult their LOR 
>first with a shei'lo for a psak din!
>
>Rich Wolpoe
>Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com 

Shavuah tov

Chana

-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]