Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 328

Wednesday, January 26 2000

• Re: Tzitzis - Assimilation
• Re: mechitzot
• Re: Re[2]: Yissachr/Zevulun
• Re: Chalav Yisrael
• Re[2]: Chalav Yisrael
• Re: Death of parent not told to Chattan
• Smoking
• Re: Tzitzis - Assimilation
• Re[2]: Histaklus BaNashim
• Re: Smoking - Humor
• Re: Limits of histaklus?
• Re[2]: Peyos
• Re: Peyos
• Re[2]: Tzitzis - Assimilation
• tcheilis
• Re: Chilul Hashem
• Re[2]: Avodah V4 #325
• Re: Avodah V4 #327-tzitzis
• Peyos - humor alert
• Re: More on MM
• Re: Limits of histaklus?
• Re: Bet Yosef Wine
• Re: More on MM
• The singular destiny of the Jewish peolpe - Yisro

On 26 Jan 00, at 6:39, Harry Maryles wrote:

> --- Daniel M Wells <wells@mail.biu.ac.il> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > b) the commandment in the shema 'oorithem oto' (you
> > should see them
> > and remember all G-d's mitzvot). 
> 
> 'oorithem oto' tells you that you are only required to
> wear Tzttzis at night.

I think you meant NOT wear them at night.

> wearing them out is only a hidur.

See Mishna Brura 8:26. That doesn't sound like a hidur to me.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

>>he stated that one could theoretically have a mechitza made of dental floss or
gossemer thread, if you will, so long as the strands were the minimal distance 
apart  from one another in any direction (about 2 1/2 inches, I think, but it 
has been awhile.)  The strands would have to be crisscrossed and not just 
parallel.>>

Does anyone know why the strands have to be crisscrossed?  Does lavud not work 
if they are parallel?

RJ Rich wrote:

>>Did Rebbe spend any time amassing or managing his wealth?  If yes, what was 
his "heter" according to the Zeveulen school?>>

There is a gemara in Chullin (104a?) where the amoraim talk about having to 
check on your assets at least once a day.  The people I know check on their 
stock portfolios much more than that.

Tobrr111 wrote:

>>Please excuse my unfortunate ignorance, but being that Hazal were "gozer" 
on Chalav Akum, how is it that milk is perfectly kosher without being 
Chalav Yisrael? Isn't it "treif" m'dirabanan - no less than a chicken 
cheese 
sandwich?>>

There was a gezeirah but there is a machlokes whether it was of the type 
that needs a beis din (gadol beminyan) to matir it or the type that does 
not apply if the reason does not.  The Chasam Sofer very strongly argues 
that the gezeirah applies even if the reason does not.  The Pri Chadash 
argue that the gezeirah does not apply when the reason does not.  I have 
heard from my rav that the Rambam is mashma like the Pri Chadash.

>>>>Please excuse my unfortunate ignorance, but being that Hazal were "gozer" 
on Chalav Akum, how is it that milk is perfectly kosher without being 
Chalav Yisrael? Isn't it "treif" m'dirabanan - no less than a chicken 
cheese 
sandwich?>>

There was a gezeirah but there is a machlokes whether it was of the type 
that needs a beis din (gadol beminyan) to matir it or the type that does 
not apply if the reason does not.  The Chasam Sofer very strongly argues 
that the gezeirah applies even if the reason does not.  The Pri Chadash 
argue that the gezeirah does not apply when the reason does not.  I have 
heard from my rav that the Rambam is mashma like the Pri Chadash.<<

Is the connection from the Rambam and the Pri Chadahs related to the fact that 
both were Sefardim?  There is greater chumro amonst sefardim with bishul akkum 
and this might be an extension of same, perhaps?

Rich Wolpoe

fwiw I heard that R. Ruderman was not informed of his father's passing until 
after shloshim I believe so that he could continue learning and sit a minimal 
shi'vo.  (I think the obit in JO has this story, but I'm not sure).

It is clear to me that one could go either way. <smile>

Personally, I like R. Baadani's eitzo better.  The gemoro suggest that being 
mesameiach chosson kallah is greater than kovod hameis at a levayo (as oposed to
an emergency kovod hameis like meis mitzvo.  THAT would be different).

Since the Chevra was presumably taking care of the father, therefore it makes 
sense to me for the chassuno to override the onenus/aveilus and to "let the show
go on".

I'd be interested in R. Baadnai's elaboratoin of HOW he arrived at his 
conclusion. 

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Death of parent not told to Chattan 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/26/2000 4:29 AM


There was a major tragedy last night at a wedding in Bnai Brak and I'm 
somewhat perplexed at the outcome. The parents of the Chattan were driving 
to the wedding when the car was in an accident and the mother was killed. 
They asked leading poskim (R. Wosner and R. Baadani) whether the young 
couple were to be informed. R. Wosner said to inform them and cancel
the
chuppah; R. Baadani said NOT to tell the couple until after the chuppah and 
be'ilat mitzva. The family followed R. Baadani and all the guests were 
informed EXCEPT the young couple. The wedding with all its dancing, etc. 
continued. I checked the Gesher Hachaim and the Pnei Baruch  and am still 
confused. How would you deal with such a situation ?

Josh

A couple of weeks ago, there were some posts about smoking. I read in the Jerusalem Post this week that Maran HaRav Smuel Vosner (Wosner) Shlita Assured people from smoking. 

On the issue of wearing tzitzit out, I recall when I was in highschool in
Skokie, I returned home for winter vacation and had my tzitzit out in the
yeshivish style.  My father z"l, who was a rather acomplished talmid
chacham, yelled at me, stated that for a bochur or ba'alabus wearing tzitzit
out is a sign of ga'ava, and ordered me to put them back in my pants.  (BTW
he felt the same way about wearing a tallis over ones head and told me that
in Hungary only rabbanim and other klei kodesh did so when not davening for
the amud).  IIRC the Mishna Berura brings down both POVs.
----- Original Message -----
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: Tzitzis - Assimilation


>
>
> --- Daniel M Wells <wells@mail.biu.ac.il> wrote:
>
> >
> > b) the commandment in the shema 'oorithem oto' (you
> > should see them
> > and remember all G-d's mitzvot).
>
> 'oorithem oto' tells you that you are only required to
> wear Tzttzis at night.
>
> wearing them out is only a hidur.
>
> HM
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com
>

Just how old is chassidism?  Mussar movement? Aguda? 

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RE: Histaklus BaNashim 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/26/2000 12:47 AM


> This is not an MO issue. They are not the ones
> changing the custom of their fathers.  It is the RW.

The MO movement is ONLY a few generations old. You can't bring MO as an 
example of keeping the customs of their fathers.

<snip>
Akiva

And if/when CV they die from smoking, do they rest Assured?

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Smoking 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/26/2000 10:59 AM


A couple of weeks ago, there were some posts about smoking. I read in the Jerusa
lem Post this week that Maran HaRav Smuel Vosner (Wosner) Shlita Assured people 
from smoking. 

Therefore one may NOT walk on the streets of NYC?

Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Limits of histaklus? 
<snip>p
How far we should go? All the way! 

<snip>

Daniel

Indeed R. Gorelick was very opposed to wearing tzitzis out.

For his humorous quip, plz email me off-line.

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

As I have repeatedly indicated this is not a RW/MO 
issue. BTW I am told that the reason R. Aaron doesn't 
weasr his Tzitzis out is because Briskers consider 
this Yuhara.

<snip>

HM

According to biographies of the Rambam, he was able to attend "medical" school 
by passing himself off as Moslem...

With his peyios out and hist tiztizs out jsut how did he accomplish this?

How did Yoseif stay frum and his brothers not notice?


Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Peyos 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/26/2000 4:50 AM



Anyone who goes to a regular barber and allows the growth place of the 
peyos to be shaved off completely is "over mideraisso". 

Leaving enough to be able to hold in one's fingers, or cutting at ear's 
length or just not cutting, are a matter of individual taste perhaps 
dictated as hidurim or humrot by that individual's chug or mesorah.

And obviously the same goes for the different ways peyos can be twisted, 
or placed - behind the ear, in front of the ear, or folded on top of the 
skull and held in place by the kippa.

Does MO decry distinctive peyos as well as wearing zizit outside one's 
pants as RW. Do not these symbols separate ourselves from the rest of the 
goyishe world. Do they not help prevent hisbollalus - not only into the 
goishe culture but also into secular Jewish values?

We learn from the this Shabbos's Parshas Shevua that the Jewish people 
where 'chosen' to be Cohanim and 'Goy Kadosh'. And one of the reasons why 
they remained intact as a people despite their servitude, was that they 
did not give up in Egypt their distinctive dresses, names, and language.

Daniel

FWIWI in Kaj/Breuer's ONLY the Rav and dayannim etc. are allowed to wear their 
tallis over their heads.

I heard that R. Schwab gave R. Hershel Schachter resuhus to do so in deference 
to his being an outstanding Talmid Chochom.

Rich Wolpoe   


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________



On the issue of wearing tzitzit out, I recall when I was in highschool in 
Skokie, I returned home for winter vacation and had my tzitzit out in the 
yeshivish style.  My father z"l, who was a rather acomplished talmid 
chacham, yelled at me, stated that for a bochur or ba'alabus wearing tzitzit 
out is a sign of ga'ava, and ordered me to put them back in my pants.  (BTW 
he felt the same way about wearing a tallis over ones head and told me that 
in Hungary only rabbanim and other klei kodesh did so when not davening for 
the amud).  IIRC the Mishna Berura brings down both POVs.

One of those involved in thhe manufacture of tcheilis sent this to me:



> despite the fact that each batch of wool is measured and dyed with the
> exact same  amount of dye and chemicals, there are always slight
> differences in the color. we attempt  to get a similar sky blue color .
> This is a well known issue with natural dying. An exact repeatable shade is
> not always possible no matter how exactly you measure.  R. Tendler's mention
> of
> a "maccabean wool" has no bearing on this topic. It most certainly can't be
> proved that it was klei kodesh.At 14:45 24/01/00 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >
> >On Sat, Jan 22, 2000 at 11:01:58PM -0500, Isaac A Zlochower wrote:
> >: Even given the above conclusions, the question remains as to the proper
> >: processing of the trunculus dye and the resultant color.
> >
> >According to the tape circulating from RIET's day of lectures to alumnae on
> >the subject, R' Tendler said this was a real problem but it was resolved.
> >
> >Wool was found in a Maccabbeen cave that had indigo-dyed wool in it, stored
> >as though it were k'lei kodesh. (I have no idea how you can tell that.) We
> >can't take this as proof of the identity of techeiles, as kaleh ilan is
> >known to include indigo, and perhaps the fact that it was kaleh ilan was
> >the reason for burial. However, it should resolve the question of color.
> >
> >As to QA from the Amutah: I have a sample from over two years ago that sat
> >in my "belt, tzitzis and yarmulka drawer" until last Oct. It was not the
> >same shade as more recent strings, very slightly to the aquamarine side,
> >although you can only see the difference if you hold the two next to each
> >other. It might be a function of how off-white the original wool was.
> >
> >-mi
> >
> >--
> >Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 24-Jan-00: Levi, Yisro
> >micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H
> >http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 104a
> >For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.

In a message dated 1/26/00 10:48:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, Harry Maryles 
writes:
<< There are also plenty 
 who are Mechalel Shem Shamayim with these easily
 identifyable symbols of Judaism by not behaving in an
 exemplary manner in public.  >>
This is an excellent point. As the Gemorah says (I think in the name of 
either Rav or Rebbi I dont remember) that it is a Chilul Hashem if he doesn't 
pay his butcher right away even though it wouldn't be a chilul hashem for 
others. In todays day and age it seems obvious that chasidim and those who 
dress like "Yeshivaliet" have an added responsibility to act in an exemplary 
manner.

fwiw I agree with RYGB's posts and that MM's leadership during his era caused a 
catastrophe, and was misguided in that it was a form of "poreitz geder".

The question that remains is nowadays are ANY items on his agenda worthwhile, 
and if so which are and which are not?

EG, If Hirsch recommends an elclectic approach to Gentile culture, and if the 
Rambam could pick and choose worthy tidbits of insight from Aristotle, and if R.
Meier could learn from Acheir, then what is learnable from MM?

Or you could say ONLY a gadol such as R. Meir, Rambmam and hirsch can make that
determination.

Rich Wolpoe



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

I do not think MM was a mumar, nor  a mesis. I think he was misguided, 
wrong, "krum" and, unwittingly perhaps, with his incorrect and dangerous 
philosophy, that bordered on heresy, paved the way for assimilation and 
apostacy. He is certainly not a hero, role model, or even a positive figure, 
for us to appreciate and c"v emulate.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659 
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

In a message dated 1/26/00 10:42:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< 
 > So what gives? Is there a heter for one who is "among the goyim"
 > not to wear their tzitzis out? And wouldn't that undercut the
 > "assimilation protection" argument?
 >  >>
There is a teshuvah of the Mahari Bruna discussed by the Tzitz Eliezer, in 
vol. 8, I think, which permits wearing tzitzis inside one's clothing. I think 
one of the factors is, to avoid yuhara.Tz.E. applies it to people who do 
kiruv work, I think.In a subsequent volume he is challenged by Rav Binyamin 
Zilber but he holds his ground. Although Tz.E. feels personally that people 
should wear their tzitzis out, he does see a heter depending on the situation.

Seen at a bris - a sign of the times:

Father: I named the baby Shmuel after his granfather Scott <smile>

(My how times have changed!)

Rich Wolpoei


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RE: Histaklus BaNashim 

IOW the fact that your father does not have peyos is no reason for 
you not to have them, and the fact that you do not have them is no 
reason for your children not to have them.


-- Carl

RYGB (sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu) wrote (Avodah V4 #327) on Wed, 26
Jan 2000  at 09:03:41 -0600:

<<1. The Novominsker branded M a mesis because of the results of his
philosophical errors. I do not think he meant that M was in the
literal
halachic category of a mesis, but that this was the po'el yotzeh of
his
thought and deeds - which is, of course, historically accurate and
true.>>

This is beautifully put, and underscores the point I was trying to make
earlier.  MM's greatest fault was that he was not zahir b'dvarav, and
the talmidim ha'baim acharav were shoseh from the mayim ha'raim, and
tremendous chilul hashem has resulted.  This, as I argued earlier, is
davka not the definition of a meisis (which has been conceded), since a
meisis can only be judged by what he says, and not by the outcome of his
statements.  If we can punish a meisis based on his statements even if
there was no avodah zara performed, we cannot punish him for an outcome
which he did not outright encourage.  In that scenario we must fault him
for not being careful with his words.
So if nothing else, we should learn from him the importance of zehirus
b'dvareinu, including the application of well-defined halachic
terminology.

Sincerely,
David Eisenman

I think you have to determine what to do lemaase re: mixed chassunos etc.

If your all-or-nothing premise flies, then one should avoid the mitzvoh of 
simchas chosson/kalo in order to avoid histaklus...

My model of halacha is eseentially based upon an equlibirum, that for every 
chumro there is potentially a kulo.

In life there are trade-offs.  Chachomim know this and deal with "shikul 
hadaas".  

This is not about simply balancing Judaism with culture, it's about balancing 
the multi-facted nature inherent with Judaism...

EG when does a son listen to his father and when does he not?  Is it not etched 
in stone "Kabeid es avicha"?  do we take that as 100% subservience?  Not 
necesarily.  Certainly obedience does not extend (as per the SA) to the choice 
of Yehsiva or bride.

We say koach dehteiro odif.  Perhaps even more that koach dehetiero is koach of 
arriving at the proper equilibirum, IOW the shvil hazohov.

Rich Wolpoe 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

If I understand you right, we have to balance (what you consider) current 
realities, with our Jewish Masorah.
<snip>

Daniel

Most wines are not diluted at all.
In california it is illegal to add water.
In NY it is not done.
Certainly no place adds up to 50%.

Ari



"Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" wrote:

> BY wines must be at least 50% wine. Ashkenazim consider wine to be wine even
> if diluted up to a sixth. Much of the Israeli Badatz wine, and some Rashi
> wines here, perhaps others as well, are "wine product" - not wine by
> Sephardic standards, but Borei Pri Ha'Gafen by Ashkenazic ones.
>
> Don't forget BY bread!
>
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
> http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org
>

One final note (BL"N :-)) on MM SRY

The following (free translation) is taken from Sefer Hatoldos Rabi SN"Z 
M'liadi (Kehat) page 161.

"The students of the Magid of Mezritch knew Bkabala the event that happened 
in the year 503 that the Bal Shem Tov called to the older students the 
Chavrayo Kadisha and he related to them:
In one of the cities in Germany there was a Sofer Stam (scribe) and his name 
was R' Menachen, he was G-d fearing and a Lamdan Muflog. HSY"S gave him a son 
with good talents and he taught him MIkrah Mishna and Gemara and being that 
he (the father) did not believe in Kabala and would have contempt for it in 
his heart and at many times even with coarse speech, and he spoke against the 
Zohar Hakodosh - this had bad influence on the child in matters of Emunah.
When R' Menachem died and his 12 year old child wanted to learn Torah - he 
left his city and came to another city in Germany and there he wanted to 
learn other Madoim in addition to Limud Hatorah, and the S"M fattened him and 
made him successful, because in him he chose to be Meisis the Yidden with 
Deiois Koizvois and to make a Karcha Byisroel and to produce Kofrim in Hashem 
and his Torah..."

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

Regardless of M and his shitos,

We Jews have a mission as mamleches kohain v'goy kadosh.

A very beneficent POV would be to see Gentiles as ok in their roles - as far as 
it goes gor them (assuming IOW that they comply to sheva mitzvos bnai noach)

However, there is a need for the world at large to have a society - not just a 
few elveated individuals - who can function in a priesty manner.  We are in 
effect THE priestly caste for the siv'im amim.  I don't know if Am haNivchar 
implies "superiroity" or not, I won't touch that.  It does imply that we are 
chosen to be G-d's kohanim as a NATION.

Any Gentile can emualte Yisro and as an individual serve hashem, and even granis
h the title Kohein. (Malki tzedek - v'hu kohein l'keil elyon)

The unique mission is that we Jews form a priestly nation, society, peoplehood.

And whether we are roshie yeshiva or ba'alei batim we are focused upon creating 
and supporting that structure, that is what it is all about.

This is of course not original stuff. I'm sure Hirsch and Kuzari and others make
this point far more eloquently than I can.  Nevertheless it is apporpriate that 
we see Parshas Yisro as showing us the *contrast* of the individual commitment 
of Yisro and the national commitment of Beis Yaakov/Bnei Yisroel.  Perhaps that 
contrast is one of the most telling points wrt juxtaposition of the Yisro Parhs 
(IOW until re'vi'i) and the parahs of maamad har sinai.

So it is fair to say of Gentile X  you too can serve Hashem in your own way and 
perhaps garnish schar on par with any Jew. But a world devoid of its priests 
would be out-of-balance, dysfunctional, misguided, and therefore the role of BY 
is essential and not optional

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

>  On the other hand, there
> > is, in M's opinion, no inherent validity to Judaism over any other 
> > religion,
>
> This phrase is unclear.
>



Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659 
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

*********************


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