Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 327

Wednesday, January 26 2000

• Re: Yissachar/Zevulun
• Tzitzis - Assimilation
• Re: Avodah V4 #325
• Re: Peyos
• Re: Re[4]: Mach'oh and Clarification
• Re: Mendelssohn
• Re:Mendelsohn and the Noda BiYehuda
• Re: Tzitzis - Assimilation
• See Ya
• Re: Avodah V4 #325
• Re: Hatzolo
• Re: Avodah V4 #326
• Re: Avodah V4 #325
• More on MM
• Re: Avodah V4 #326
• Re: Histaklus BaNashim
• Re: Avodah V4 #326
• Yissachar/Zeuvulun
• Re: Tsisit out
• Disappointed
• Re[6]: Mach'oh and Clarification
• Mesira
• Payos, was: Histaklus BaNashim
• Re: Tzitzis - Assimilation

In a message dated 1/26/00 1:23:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

> >  L"and, this is incorrect. That reference (cf. Rashi Sanhedrin 36a) is to 
>  >  Torah and Malchus, not Torah and wealth.
>  >  
>  See Rashi D"H Bmokom Echod Gitin 59a.

Look further, regarding Pinchas. It seems clear that your Rashi refers Davka 
to Rebbe's status, and what gave Rebbe that Gedulah position. Mah sheEin Kein 
Pinchas was KG, Rebbe was Nasi (as well as an Ashir Muflag, but Rashi 
Sanhedrin emphasizes Niseeus) and Moshe was Malchus.

My point is that the "Torah UGdulah biMakom Echad" has nothing to do with 
wealth, per se; it is dealing with an intangible authority over others which 
is acquired via various means.

Mordechai
Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf

> I started wearing my tzitzis out when I was a bochur, and I learned
> Mishna Brura 8:26 where he says that you should wear them out.
> However, he says that it would be enough for those who go among
> the goyim to "stick them in the Kanfos." We don't really have
> Kanfos on the average pair of tzitzis today into which the strings
> could be stuck. But in the States (at least when I lived there) and
> especially in the business world, it seemed that most people did
> not go with their tzitzis out. In fact, I know many respected talmidei
> chachamim in the States who wear their tzitzis in, and I always
> assumed that they considered themselves to be "going among the
> goyim" as the heter for not wearing the tzitzis out. But I re-read the
> Mishna Brura today and he says something about NOT sticking
> them in the pants. (At all?).
> 
> So what gives? Is there a heter for one who is "among the goyim"
> not to wear their tzitzis out? And wouldn't that undercut the
> "assimilation protection" argument?
> 
> - -- Carl

There is a world of difference in aborting rabbinic ordinances due
to a real fear of goyim (physical, job retention etc) and that due to
assimilation tendencies - the ability to enter unnoticed to goyish
places of entertainment, and the likes.

Moshe Feinstein permitted removal of the yamulka in streets where goyim
are likely to attack you. What his position was on job retention I don't
know.

Today in the much more pluralistic liberal American society, and kal
vehomer here in Israel there really is no excuse for hiding one's
Jewishness. 

Most fears today are of being noticably different in dress especially
by those who become stronger in mitzva observance.

To start wearing a kippa (and more so by women covering their hair) in the
street or workplace is obviously a daunting experience. But in my
experience, while an occassional unkind comment may arise, most accept the
fact fairly quickly that what is important is what you are and what you
believe in, and not for what you wear.

As far as zizit are concerned there are two main problems:-

a) of the zizit themselves (not the beged) touching the bare skin

b) the commandment in the shema 'oorithem oto' (you should see them
and remember all G-d's mitzvot). 

Most hold 'seeing them', mean physical sight all of the time, others hold
a least once a day, and others yet that sight could mean in your thoughts.

Sight of zizit is supposed to induce a spirit of kedusha, as an antithesis
to one's yetzer hora which tries to drag one away to non-kedusha-dick
activities.
 
Obviously in a workplace where there is a danger of being caught up on
a machine by loose garments, one should be maikel, ie wearing them inside,
making sure the zizit don't touch the bare skin.

Coming back to the crux of the matter, a lot depends on attitude to
mitzvot.  Do we make a bracha before eating an apple because its forbidden
otherwise to eat it, or do we make a bracha because we want to pour
shvachim on our Creator.

Daniel

RYZ (Yzkd@aol.com) replies (Avodah V4 #325) on Wed, 26 Jan 2000 00:12:55
EST:

<<The issue here is saying that Ilu Hoyoh Bdoiroi Shel... Haya
Tzadik.>>

That is certainly a valid issue for this particular discussion, but my
more fundamental point was that one should apply "chachamim hizaharu
b'divreichem..." very stringently.  With all the implications of the
title, there is not much halachic leeway for labeling someone a meisis
in a "non-halachic" sense.  The precision of halachic definition does
not allow for people to be "technically" not a meisis, but nevertheless
be treated as such.  You may be machmir on hasasa, but someone else
could be machmir on limud z'chus or v'hitzilu ha'edah.

Was MM a mumar?  Potentially, though I am completely  ignorant of his
opinions [far more than you could imagine; my wife the history buff
filled me in a little].  I'd be perfectly willing to accept that he was
a meisis too, if someone could demonstrate that (RYGB's sources do not
seem to do so). But we should be careful about what halachic categories
we apply when they were not intended for such application by chazal. 
This is a true issue of proper Avodas HaShem.

Sincerely, 
David Eisenman

--- Daniel M Wells <wells@mail.biu.ac.il> wrote:

> 
> Does MO decry distinctive peyos as well as wearing
> zizit outside one's
> pants as RW.


As I have repeatedly indicated this is not a RW/MO
issue. BTW I am told that the reason R. Aaron doesn't
weasr his Tzitzis out is because Briskers consider
this Yuhara.

> Do not these symbols separate ourselves
> from the rest of the
> goyishe world. Do they not help prevent hisbollalus
> - not only into the
> goishe culture but also into secular Jewish values?


Perhaps.  I'm not sure about this.  There are plenty
of Jews who use these Chitzonious items as a
"membership card" to the RW. There are also plenty 
who are Mechalel Shem Shamayim with these easily
identifyable symbols of Judaism by not behaving in an
exemplary manner in public. They would be better off
hiding their Judaism rather than showing it off. I'll
never forget hearing about the "Chasidic Jews" who
used the services of the "Mayflower Madam".  Peyos
certainly didn't stop them from behaving badly. 
> 
> We learn from the this Shabbos's Parshas Shevua that
> the Jewish people
> where 'chosen' to be Cohanim and 'Goy Kadosh'. And
> one of the reasons why
> they remained intact as a people despite their
> servitude, was that they
> did not give up in Egypt their distinctive dresses,
> names, and language.

Bnei Yisroel at that time also sank to the 49th level
of Tumah.  Hopefully we are on a higher level then the
49th shar even if our Shem U'Lvush are not so
different then the rest of society. Also, the Lvush
distinction may be a reffernce to thwe Pritzusdik way
in which the Mitzrim dress vs the Tznius way Bnei
Israel dressed.  I don't know.

HM
__________________________________________________
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In a message dated 1/26/00 1:35:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
TROMBAEDU@aol.com writes:

>  << There is a Kabala AFAIR from the Bal Shem tov, that Oisoi Hoish will 
have a  
>   Tikkun after "Nun Alofim Yoivlois" and MM even then not.
>    >>
>  
>  Whew. A lot of material flying around here. A "kabala AFAIR" to place an 
>  observant Jew below Jesus, an admittedly problematic figure in Jewish 
History 
>  all on his own.

I have heard otherwise about his "frumkeit" (public vs. private) I have no 
intention to further discussion of a person that has been "credited" with 
turning away many Yidden from Torah Umitzvoseho.

>  Gentlemen. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Mendelssohn represents 
a 
>  "L'chatchilo" approach to Judaism,

And I add not even a Bidieved, proof is in the outcome!

>  By the way, R' Yitzchok, its not that I think a statement by the Besht 
>  doesn't require us to sit up and take notice, I am just not sure we should 
>  pin an entire approach to it either, especially when quoted in such a 
vague 
>  fashion. Really, Mendelssohn on a lower Madrega than Jesus? Must we take 
>  rhetorical hyperbole as literal truth?

CLARIFICATION:

I could not retrace the source of what I attributed "IIRC" to the BSH"T, and 
hence I don't know who if anyone said it.

However I reiterate that I am deeply saddened by the Koshering of someone who 
was considered Possul by Frume Yidden, and even deeper saddened by the 
suggestion that he is the forerunner of MO, (and rhetorical hyperbole when 
used is meant with a Kavana to "distance" ourselves from the one used 
against).

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 1/25/00 7:46:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jjbaker@panix.com writes:

>  I know that Lubavitch, e.g., Dr. Mindel, anathematizes
>  MM because of what his "followers" did.
>  
See Iggros Kodesh of the RaSHaB Vol. 5 pages 9-27.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

The Nodah BYehuda, theRabban Shel Kol benai hagolah had the following to say 
about Mendelsohn:
"Now I see that all those who judge him harshly are indeed correct, for he 
has now proclaimed that he has no share in the God of Israel or his Torah . . 
. He is like Ravshakeh, an apostate . . . a sectarian and an informer." (A 
copy of this letter in the Noda Biyehudas kesav yad was reproduced in Kovetz 
Bes Aharon V'Ysrael, Shevat 5753, and the translation is from the Torah 
Umadda Journal 6, p. 207).
This letter is important and interesting for a number of reasons. Firstly, it 
seems that at first the Nodah B'Yehuda also thought that Mendelsohn was 
"kosher" but now found information that proves him to be a rasha. What did he 
find? It cannot be that just the fact that he translated the Torah into 
German, because the Noda B'Yehuda himself gave haskomos to other German 
translations even after Mendelsohn printed his. Even though he thought that 
Mendelsohns was worse for various reasons, still the fact alone that he 
translated the Torah does not seem to be the cause of the Nodah B'Yehudas 
harsh comments. 
Also, The Nodah Byehuda was not known as a kanai against all secular studies. 
In fact, his son R. Shmuel specifically called for all children to be taught 
Torah with a German Translation. Of course, you cannot bring proof to the 
Nodah Byehudas position from his sons statements, but in general it does not 
seem that he was so opposed to translations and some secular study, as was 
the Hatam Sofer. So this brings us back to the question: if so, what did the 
Nodah BYehuda find so terrible about Mendelsohn? It seems to me that if we on 
the list are trying to find the Emes and some are trying to show why 
Mendelsohn was really "kosher", then it at least also behooves us to try to 
understand the opposition of the Gadol Hador, the Nodah BYehuda. Being that I 
don't know the answer, I would appreciate if maybe R. Carmy or R. Baker or 
the others who seem to find Mendelsohn to be relatively kosher and seem to be 
experts on his thought, to explain why the Nodah BYehuda found him to be a 
Rasha. 
  

--- Daniel M Wells <wells@mail.biu.ac.il> wrote:

> 
> b) the commandment in the shema 'oorithem oto' (you
> should see them
> and remember all G-d's mitzvot). 

'oorithem oto' tells you that you are only required to
wear Tzttzis at night.

wearing them out is only a hidur.

HM
__________________________________________________
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I'm going to the Holy land for the next ten days to
visit my son Meyer and his beautiful family in Ramat
Bet Shemesh.  I don't think I will have access to any
e-mail while I'm there so.. see you in ten days.  

HM

__________________________________________________
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----- Original Message -----
From: David Eisenman <eisenman@umich.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #325


> Was MM a mumar?  Potentially, though I am completely  ignorant of his
> opinions [far more than you could imagine; my wife the history buff
> filled me in a little].  I'd be perfectly willing to accept that he was
> a meisis too, if someone could demonstrate that (RYGB's sources do not
> seem to do so). But we should be careful about what halachic categories
> we apply when they were not intended for such application by chazal.
> This is a true issue of proper Avodas HaShem.
>

I do not think MM was a mumar, nor  a mesis. I think he was misguided,
wrong, "krum" and, unwittingly perhaps, with his incorrect and dangerous
philosophy, that bordered on heresy, paved the way for assimilation and
apostacy. He is certainly not a hero, role model, or even a positive figure,
for us to appreciate and c"v emulate.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

Isn't that eivo by definition?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Hatzolo 


> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:09:38 -0600 
> From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> 
> Subject: Re: Hatzolo, was Mendelsohn

<<It is unclear whether the reason for permitting Hatzalah to take the 
call is because of eivah, or because of darchei Shalom. I paraphrase R' 
Aharon Lichtenstein in <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n  that 
darchei Shalom is "ma ani, af ata" (imitatio dei).>>


	It is neither,  as R 'Gil wrote and as I discussed offline with R' Rich.
 It is due to a fear that perception by the outside world that Hatzolo
deals only with Jews may cause backlash in the future to the point that 
Hatzolo's ability to serve the Jewish community is compromised or ended.

Gershon

In a message dated 1/26/00 7:57:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< What RHM actually meant, I think, was the assertion that I believe I 
related
 to him, that all individuals with the family name Eiger who are frum today
 are descendants of the Chassidic line of the family via R' Leibele Eiger.
 All of the Misnagdic Eigers became frei. I heard this from a scion of the
 Misnagdic line who became a Ba'al Teshuva (and a Breslover Chosid). This
 dichotomy, of course, did not apply to the Schreiber/Sofer dynasty, that,
 while from RAE, did not bear the Eiger family name.
  >>
I understand. Thanx for the clarification. But that is a far cry from 
Mendelsohn who all his descendants converted. R. Akiva Eiger has descendants 
who to this day are gedolei Torah. 

In a message dated 1/26/00 9:26:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, RDE writes:

> You may be machmir on hasasa, but someone else
>  could be machmir on limud z'chus or v'hitzilu ha'edah.

That is not what I saw in the posts.

As to the term of "Meisis" it is commonaly used in non "technical" form, by 
those who dealt with fighting off the influances of all the different Ruchois.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind  

Two points from the JO contretemps on M back in '86-'87:

1. The Novominsker branded M a mesis because of the results of his
philosophical errors. I do not think he meant that M was in the literal
halachic category of a mesis, but that this was the po'el yotzeh of his
thought and deeds - which is, of course, historically accurate and true.

2. R' Schwab ended his essay on M (and I see I was mechavein in citing M to
some of the texts that RSS used as well) with a beautiful paragraph:

"Mendelssohn aimed to adapt 'Judaism' to 19th century Humanism, while [RSR]
Hirsch's goal was to submit all Derech Eretz to the eternal sovreignity of
the Torah. From the grave of Mendelssohn blowas an icy wind which chills the
bones, while the heritage of SRH hyas become a beacon of light for more than
five generations."

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

In a message dated 1/26/00 7:57:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< only that perhaps his offhanded total 
 rejection by most of the Orthodox world may be a problematic approach to 
deal 
 with a complex, contradictory, observer of Halacha >>
Why problematic? The Orthodox world is following the lead of one of the 
greatest gedolim ever, the Noda BYehuda (see my previous post for his 
extremely harsh comments). Aside from the fact that he was a gadol the Nodah 
BYehuda lived in Mendelsohns day and obviously knew him and his affect far 
better than us. And as I pointed out the opposition was not bec. of his 
translation. Shouldn't we as Orthodox Jews(when I joined the list it said it 
was from an Orthodox perspective) try to understand the Nodah BYehudas 
position? 

Chana Luntz wrote (V4#326):
"Certainly our greatest problem at the moment is finding time for 
each other (two busy professionals, if one isn't delayed late at 
work, the other is and just so much too do). "

fwiw, I heard from a LOR here that he thinks that to some extent 
the reason why there seems to be so many more problems with 
marriages today, is that 75-100 yrs ago who had the koach to 
even talk to their spouse at end of the day...

kol tuv
Sender Baruch

In a message dated 1/26/00 7:57:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< This is an interesting point. Many rabanim I have spoken to would be 
 reluctant to accuse someone of being a Moser in this case. I do not mean 
this 
 to be an authoritative statement, only that perhaps it is time we tested the 
 validity of your theory in the real world.  >>
I agree with you that in a case where the "criminal" is doing real harm to 
the community and there is no other way of taking care of the situation, or 
as an example for future criminals, we should test the theory. However, I 
remember one high profile case where the theory was tested and the person who 
testified in court was vilified. Also, being that the halacha of Moser is one 
of the most serious in all of Shulchan Aruch, we have to be very careful that 
it doesn't lead to going to authorities when not necessary. Also, I still 
believe that is naive of us to think that the authorities always have the 
best interests at heart.

	I believe in one of the later volumes of the Igros Moshe, there is a
teshuva detailing exactly how yissachar/zeuvulun works al pi halacha.
> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:06:02 -0500
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: Yissachr/Zevulun
> 
> I don't have any sources handy, but I would guess that at least someone
> has 
> already come up with the idea of fulfiling some of both roles within the
> same 
> person.
> 
> Rich Wolpoe
> 

In a message dated 1/26/00 7:57:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, Carl Sherer 
writes:
<< So what gives? Is there a heter for one who is "among the goyim" 
 not to wear their tzitzis out? And wouldn't that undercut the 
 "assimilation protection" argument? >>
I recently had a meeting in midtown manhattan with a real WASP in the 
Prudential buiding in Manhattan. Of course, I tucked my tsisit in. When I got 
there I was shocked to find Dozens (literaly!) of frum people wearing their 
tsitsit out and a few chasidim with their tsitsit over their shirts! I was 
shocked. I expected this in the diamond district but not in a real 
proffessional building like Prudential.

In V4#323 someone responded to a machoh without any 
question or rebuttal, just "How very frum of you." 

I can only hope that this is a case of the hand is quicker 
than the brain.

kol tuv
Sender Baruch

And I re-iterate we want to know HOW he became possul!

The Torah tells us whatw the nokeiv Shem did wrong and we fear not reading that 
parahs every years and AFAIK no one has listening to that parahs has initiatoed 
a copycat crime!

It's not enough to say we have a chazak that Mendelsohnn is possul.  We need to 
know what he did (and perhaps when!)

Do we throw out takknons of Yochanan Kohein Gadol becasue later on he became a 
Tsedukki?  I don't think so.  

I never recall shirking aways from discussing points like this before.  What's 
the problem?  

Rich Wolpoe 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

However I reiterate that I am deeply saddened by the Koshering of someone who 
was considered Possul by Frume Yidden, and even deeper saddened by the 
suggestion that he is the forerunner of MO, (and rhetorical hyperbole when 
used is meant with a Kavana to "distance" ourselves from the one used 
against).

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:50:39 EST
From: Tobrr111@aol.com
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #324

<< And even if one gets a pesak from one Rav that in this 
case he may go to secular authorities, there is always the worry that
others 
that don't follow this Rav will consider you to be a Moser.>>

	I am aware of cases where a certain Rav advised an abused wife or
advocates for abused children,  and other such cases to go to the police.
 The Rav was attacked and vilified by various elements who disagreed, 
leshem Shomaim or otherwise I shall not judge,  with his psak.  Lichvodo
he stood by it,  but he is a definite mi'ut.

Gershon

Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 21:37:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Histaklus BaNashim

<<I believe this is a function of the incessant move to the right and is
pointedly anti-assimilationist at it's base.>>
	
		Reb Harry, I know you oppose the move to the right.  But do you oppose
anti-assimilationism as well?

You also wrote:

<<Mersorah is transfered through fathers not grandfathers>>

	Did the fathers "make up" the mesorah?  Isn't mesorah by definition
fathers from grandfathers lema'ala bakodesh until Sinai?

Gershon

On 26 Jan 00, at 16:13, Daniel M Wells wrote:

> 
> > I started wearing my tzitzis out when I was a bochur, and I learned
> > Mishna Brura 8:26 where he says that you should wear them out.
> > However, he says that it would be enough for those who go among
> > the goyim to "stick them in the Kanfos." We don't really have
> > Kanfos on the average pair of tzitzis today into which the strings
> > could be stuck. But in the States (at least when I lived there) and
> > especially in the business world, it seemed that most people did
> > not go with their tzitzis out. In fact, I know many respected talmidei
> > chachamim in the States who wear their tzitzis in, and I always
> > assumed that they considered themselves to be "going among the
> > goyim" as the heter for not wearing the tzitzis out. But I re-read the
> > Mishna Brura today and he says something about NOT sticking
> > them in the pants. (At all?).
> > 
> > So what gives? Is there a heter for one who is "among the goyim"
> > not to wear their tzitzis out? And wouldn't that undercut the
> > "assimilation protection" argument?
> > 
> > - -- Carl
> 
> There is a world of difference in aborting rabbinic ordinances due
> to a real fear of goyim (physical, job retention etc) and that due to
> assimilation tendencies - the ability to enter unnoticed to goyish
> places of entertainment, and the likes.
> 
> Moshe Feinstein permitted removal of the yamulka in streets where goyim
> are likely to attack you. What his position was on job retention I don't
> know.

See Igros Moshe OH 4:2. He permitted it. In fact, he went a lot 
further than he needed to go in that tshuva - he even matired saying 
brachos without it.

> Today in the much more pluralistic liberal American society, and kal
> vehomer here in Israel there really is no excuse for hiding one's
> Jewishness. 

Both of those are myths. There is lots of job discrimination against 
fruhm people in general and against Charedim in Israel in particular. 
I bounced one of about twenty emails from a discussion on another 
list about that to this list two weeks ago.

> Most fears today are of being noticably different in dress especially
> by those who become stronger in mitzva observance.

I don't think so. I think that in the job market the discrimination is 
real....

> As far as zizit are concerned there are two main problems:-
> 
> a) of the zizit themselves (not the beged) touching the bare skin

Which should be solved if you wear an undershirt and make sure to 
keep the tzitzis above the belt....

> b) the commandment in the shema 'oorithem oto' (you should see them
> and remember all G-d's mitzvot). 
> 
> Most hold 'seeing them', mean physical sight all of the time, others hold
> a least once a day, and others yet that sight could mean in your thoughts.
> 
> Sight of zizit is supposed to induce a spirit of kedusha, as an antithesis
> to one's yetzer hora which tries to drag one away to non-kedusha-dick
> activities.
>  
> Obviously in a workplace where there is a danger of being caught up on
> a machine by loose garments, one should be maikel, ie wearing them inside,
> making sure the zizit don't touch the bare skin.

The Mishna Brura specifically refers to one who "goes among the 
goyim. While I do not regard that as a heter for Eretz Yisrael, I 
think it is definitely a heter not to wear tzitzis out in chu"l. 

> Coming back to the crux of the matter, a lot depends on attitude to
> mitzvot.  Do we make a bracha before eating an apple because its forbidden
> otherwise to eat it, or do we make a bracha because we want to pour
> shvachim on our Creator.

That depends if you're doing it m'yira or me'ahava. The Mishna 
Brura posits that pushing your tzitzis into your pants shows a lack 
of ahava. OTOH RHM points out correctly that Briskers do not wear 
their tzitzis out (at least in chu"l - I never checked what they do in 
EY).

-- Carl (still wondering what the MB means when he says to put it 
in the Kanaf rather than in your pants)


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

*********************


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