Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 318

Monday, January 24 2000

• Mendelssohn and the singular destiny of the Jewish people
• Re: MO vs RW
• Re: Mendelssohn and the singular destiny of the Jewish people
• KSA, wurst and oysvorfs
• Re: Histaklus BaNashim
• Re: Re[2]: Histaklus BaNashim
• Re: MO vs RW
• Re: MO vs RW
• Re: Avodah V4 #316
• Re: Histaklus BaNashim
• Re: Re[2]: Histakluth-3 additional comments
• Re: Histaklus BaNashim
• Re: Histaklus BaNashim
• Re[2]: Motzoei Shabbos
• Re[2]: MO vs RW
• Re: Eliezer Ben Yehuda: a one-man movement?
• Re[2]: Charedi vs. MO (was Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl
• Metzuveh v'oseh
• Re: Histaklus BaNashim
• Bet Yosef meat and lifnei iver
• Re: Histaklus BaNashim

> Chas v'Shalom! Mendelsohn denied the concept of the Chosen People. To put
> any section of Orthodoxy in his camp is a terrible affront.

If behirat Yisrael means that G-d revealed His laws to only one nation and
not to any other, then Mendelssohn was a strong proponent of behirat
Yisrael.

If behirat Yisrael means that it is of crucial importance for that one
nation to continue in the service of G-d, as He has commanded, even though
(or precisely because) the observance of those commandments
craetes and sustains a distance between that nation and other nations,
then Mendelssohn subscribed to behirat Yisrael in his published writings
and in his private letters.

On 24 Jan 00, at 13:39, Clark, Eli wrote:

> In the modern Orthodox community (at least, to my knowledge), one finds
> the opposite attitude.  A great deal of emphasis -- too much in my view
> -- is placed on the value of secular education, especially prestigious
> Ivy Leage diplomas.  Rabbanim who do not have a college degree are
> likely to be looked down upon as unsophisticated.  (This is true in the
> US.  In Israel, most of the MO rabbanim have no secular education, so
> the situation may be different.)  

If you're referring to a university degree, it is most often the case 
that MO Rabbis here do not have them. But if you are referring to 
secular education bichlal, I think most MO Rabbis here have a 
teudat bagrut (high school diploma plus acceptable grades on 
SAT's and Achievement Tests all rolled into one). By contrast, 
most RW Rabbis here have little or no formal secular education 
beyond eighth grade (and often not a very extensive one before 
that).

 And the
> positive side of this is that the frum ba'al ha-bayyit is considered a
> worthy individual in the MO community.  If that person combines work
> with keviat ittim, he is even more highly regarded.  And the ideal is
> the articulate, educated talmid hakham who also supports himself
> professionally.

I think that is an ideal in MO only in the YU type environment in the 
US, and in the Mercaz and better Hesder Yeshiva type 
environments here. At least in Israel, there is a large segment of 
MO (or let's call it DL which is what it's called here) which has little 
or no post high school (Torah) learning, which does not place 
significant value on kviat itim, and which may admire the articulate, 
educated talmid chacham who supports himself, but would not 
aspire to be like him or want their children to be like him.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On Mon, 24 Jan 2000, Shalom Carmy wrote:

> > Chas v'Shalom! Mendelsohn denied the concept of the Chosen People. To
> put > any section of Orthodoxy in his camp is a terrible affront. 
> 
> If behirat Yisrael means that G-d revealed His laws to only one nation
> and not to any other, then Mendelssohn was a strong proponent of behirat
> Yisrael. 
> 
> If behirat Yisrael means that it is of crucial importance for that one
> nation to continue in the service of G-d, as He has commanded, even
> though (or precisely because) the observance of those commandments
> craetes and sustains a distance between that nation and other nations,
> then Mendelssohn subscribed to behirat Yisrael in his published writings
> and in his private letters. 
> 
> 

I am dan RSC l'kaf zechus that his intent was not to defend M, but to
fine tune the issue. I.e., Mendelssohn believed that Jews were bound by
Sinai, and basically that is their tough luck. On the other hand, there
is, in M's opinion, no inherent validity to Judaism over any other
religion, certainly not a leading role, for revelation is not inherent
proof of validity, nor are dogmas essential to Judaism. Thus, any advocate
of pure reason coming to conclusions rexched thereby has as much
legitimacy as one who maitains his laws were revealed at Sinai (perhaps
more). If I understand correctly, M would not subscribe to the Rambam's
view that a gentile must fulfill sheva mitzvos becaue Hashem commanded
them in order to get OH - aderaba!

V'yesh l'ha'arich, but I refer thiose interested in M's abberations to the
EJ entry on the person and his beliefs. (There are more.)

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila



YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

I haven't heard of the KSA as such an impetus for straying from the path.
What I have heard is more of the sausage-factory approach as a source
of discomfort.  That is, people complain that the "rabbis" in school
(Mir, in the case of one person I talked with last week, or wherever)
would say "that's a bad question" and not answer questions if they arose
outside of a particular range.  Whether that was caused by a sausage-factory
mentality, or just a lack of desire on the part of the rebbe to deal with
uncomfortable or elementary questions, I don't know.  A short-story writer,
Nathan Englander, also wrote about this as his impetus for leaving Orthodoxy:

: During some formative period or
: another, I had basic theological questions. None of the men in
: charge of my religious education were equipped to deal with
: them. And so I began to look elsewhere, I began to read
: literature. Simple as that. And the same with creativity. If it
: wasn't actively quashed it was surely helped towards atrophy.

<http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/aak/qna/englander.html>

So perhaps R' Hutner's statement is some needed mussar.

OTOH, some people will always go off, no matter what you do, just because
of their personality or whatever, doesn't matter if they come from an RW
or LW background, just like some people will become more religious - change
is part of humanity and growth.

I haven't learned in any yeshiva gedola, and the school I attended
(Ramaz) is used to kids from non-religious or less-religious families,
and doesn't indoctrinate in a heavy-handed manner.

-JJB

> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:15:48 +0000
> From: Chana/Heather Luntz <Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: Histaklus BaNashim
> 
> In message , Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> writes
> > But I'm not sure if I would have been any better off 
> >had the seating been mixed as my wife only knew three or four 
> >people on the women's side.
> 
> I know we are still newly weds, and it shows, but I assumed that if the
> seating were mixed you had a 100% success rate, assuming you were
> married, in that the person you most enjoyed talking to was there to
> talk to.

True :-) But I don't need to go to a wedding to talk to my wife, and if 
I am talking to my wife the entire time it is questionable whether I 
am performing the mitzva of being mesameach chosson v'kallah 
(although admittedly one could question whether I was performing it 
by watching the baby the entire evening).

> >This may well be a separate topic, but it is one that interests me 
> >all the same. At what age do you all think it is inappropriate for a 
> >girl to sit with her father in shul? I'm interested in hearing any and 
> >all opinions.... Especially if anyone has halachic sources....
> 
> I'm not bringing halachic sources for a change (although I think they
> support me - everything i have seen says 3 ideally, and 8-9 at worst),
> but my view is never - or at least, she shouldn't sit with her father
> once she is of an age to understand that boys go one place and girls sit
> elsewhere.

I am snipping the rest of your post, but I will add that I agree with 
you entirely. My third daughter is only five, but with the first two I 
managed to send them to the ladies section somewhere around 
age 8. Now if I could only get the eldest to come to shul and watch 
the little ones (she's at that teenage "I have to sleep on Shabbos 
morning" phase...).

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 24 Jan 00, at 14:52, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:40:37 -0500 <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com> writes:
> 
> <<I also think it while it is true that basic human nature does not
> change, their are certain societal and peer pressures that DO change.>>
> 
> 	IOW,  the basic human nature was always that women could have hirhurim
> as well as men;  just that normal society (i.e., as distinguished from
> that around us in this day and age) prevented their actualization?  If I
> understand you correctly,
> 
> 	a) This fits well with the Gemaras re:  nashim da'atan kalos,  etc.
> 	b) I wonder how RCS fits this in with his observation on harchakos.

Sorry - I left the office early tonight and am only now checking my 
email. 

I think it still fits my observation of harchokos. After all, the 
harchokos are (all?) gzeiros d'rabanan. So they could reflect a 
change in basic human nature from the times of matan Torah.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 24 Jan 00, at 15:02, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> Let's factor multi-millionaires and Yale Ph.D.'s out of the picture, along 
> with other examples of rare secular success (like being a corporate lawyer at 
> a big Wall Street law firm founded, say, by a former Chief Justice of the 
> U.S.). Aren't we willing to concede that that standing of the rest of us in 
> the community -- MO, RW, it doesn't matter (except for certain Chasids) -- is 
> dependent more on the relative prestige of our work than on our willingness 
> to forego attaining (or maintaining) such prestige so that we can devote more 
> hours to nonremunerative activities? Like family, or studying Torah, or 
> volunteer charity work? 

This may be true in the US, but it is most definitely not true in 
Israel. Most of RW stays in Kollel for as long as possible and for 
much longer than is generally the case in the US. Even afterwards, 
one's status in the community has nothing to do with the prestige 
of one's work. It has to do with one's perceived level of learning, and 
I daresay that being too successful in the business world could 
even LOWER that image.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

In a message dated 1/24/00 1:38:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM writes:

<< 
 As far as texts go, remember that the vast majority of the MO community
 are not intellectuals; >>
I'd agree with your statement and expand it by taking out the M.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

In a message dated 1/24/00 3:02:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, Akiva Miller 
writes:
<< The Chazal which *I* always heard was that
 the husband should love his wife as himself, but honor her even more than
 himself. (But, I admit, I do not know the source of that Chazal. Anyone
 else, maybe?) >>

Yevamos 62b, Sanhedrin 76b, brought down by Rosh and Ran at the end of Gittin 
and by the Rambam hilchos ishus perek 15 # 19.
However, it should also be noted that Rambam writes that a husband should be 
like a king in his wifes eyes and the Rama (Even Haezer 69:7) writes that 
"Eyn lecha keshara b'nashim ela isha sheosa retson baala."
 

I would have thought my comment about one person being removed from the list
because of lashon neki'ah would have been sufficient, but since it isn't, let
me quote the book title:

Doesn't anyone blush anymore?

Here we are, off an a tangent, discussing who has which hirhurim in mixed
company??? Is it just me, or does this seem really out of place for something
that calls itself a "Torah Discussion Group" of any level.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 24-Jan-00: Levi, Yisro
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 104a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 1/24/00 3:11:54 PM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< fwiw, R. Weiss told us it was ok to lick meat w/o swallowing to determine 
if it 
 had been salted.  IOW, te'imo b'almo was ok to determine if something were 
 kosher.
  >>

The leap from Rachav to kashruth is too big for me. Anyhow, salted meat 
*smells* salted -- and any butcher can tell whether meat is adequately salted 
by looking at it and handling it a little. You don't have to lick it. 

Rachav wasn't forbidden in the same sense. One dealt with a difficult and 
sometimes overpowering human impulse. The other deals with sanctified food. I 
mean, if you see a plate of Lobster Newburg, are you supposed to say, 
"Lobster, Lobster," and then succumb to over overwhelming desire to consume 
it?

David Finch

In a message dated 1/24/00 4:56:13 PM US Central Standard Time, 
Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk writes:

<< While certain strands of thought within
 Yiddishkeit are pretty puritanical (cf the Rambam), the Ramban and
 others hold differently. The key is the appropriate context which in
 this case is between a man and his wife.  None of these rules apply
 between a man and his wife (and, as mentioned, when a man is choosing a
 wife), which should ensure the continuation for as many generations as
 are required.  >>

This assumes that the man looking for a wife does all the choosing. If the 
would-be wife gets to express her feelings, too, then you open up many of the 
unavoidable issues involved in female as well as male sexuality outside of 
marriage.

By the way, the Ramban is a big hero of mine. He is startlingly modern (in 
the best sense), and some of his essays -- I'm thinking of the one he wrote 
on Koheleth in particular -- are brilliant from any perspective. He was also 
something of a maverick. One gets the sense when reading him that he says 
what he thinks, not just what others might expect of him.

David Finch

In a message dated 1/24/00 8:23:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< 
 Doesn't anyone blush anymore?
 
 Here we are, off an a tangent, discussing who has which hirhurim in mixed
 company??? Is it just me, or does this seem really out of place for something
 that calls itself a "Torah Discussion Group" of any level.
 
 -mi
  >>
While I haven't been following this thread too closely,my general reaction is 
that any discussion that falls into the category of "Tora he vllmod ani 
tzarich"(Brachot 62.) should be allowed subject to the reasonable bounds set 
by our esteemed listmaster.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

all kidding aside, isn't a midnight to midnight view co-incide with Tzadukim or 
Karaim?  I vaguely recall something like this...

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Motzoei Shabbos 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/16/2000 3:50 PM


 R' Gershon Dubin questions on the use of the term Motzaei Shabbat. 
Gershon obviously doesn't live in Israel or at least doesn't hear Israeli radio 
or TV.  

In modern, post-Zionist, hiloni, Israel, Motzaei Shabbat no longer exist.
The radio and TV announce programs to take place on leil shishi at 10 PM. The te
rm 
Leil Shabbat doesn't exist and their leil shishi ends at midnight on Friday nigh
t. ( I'll 
ignore that, in Hebrew, leil shishi means Thursday evening)  They also inform of
programs that will take place on Shabbat at 11 PM.  The Shabbat they are talking
about ends at midnight on Saturday night.  I often put on the radio or TV a few 
hours 
after havdala to hear the news and sometimes hear the announcer say Shabbat 
Shalom. But, ladun le-khaf zekhut, maybe they're just more machmir than Rabbenu 
Tam.

fwiw I once attended a Bris.  The father of the rach hanimol said that his son 
should grow up to be a big ba'al tzedokoh etc. like his grandfather after whom 
he is named...

The LOR got up and exlaimed he should be talmid chochom too etc.  IOW the brocho
of being a "gvir" to support Torah was insufficient in that LOR's eyes.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: MO vs RW 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/24/2000 6:07 PM




--- "Clark, Eli" <clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM> wrote:

> The simple reality -- in my
> experience -- is that the MO
> community respects people who work for a living and 
> the RW community
> does not.

I believe Eli is totally on target. And I think both 
the MO and the RW are way off base when it comes to 
the way the MO values those who learn full time and 
the way the RW value those who work. 

<snip>

HM

true enough.

Several points

1) AFAIK most/many of the haskalah Hebraicists were NOT zionists and did not 
therefore did not push Hebrew in israel

2) AFAIK, those maskilim in Europe promoted more-or-less the traditional 
ashkenazic pronounciation.  My Hebrew Days School teachers were from that school
of ashkeNOZiS <smile>

the fact remains, that ashkenazic pronounciation is a dinosaur today in Israel, 
even amongst those secualr ashkeanzic Jews who look down upon sefardim.  

Rich Wolpoe



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Eliezer Ben Yehuda: a one-man movement? 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/16/2000 9:20 AM



>2) Eliezer Ben Yehduda pretty much was a one-man movement to restore 
> >hebrew as a
>spoken language.

I don't think this is true. Remember that Hebraists in interwar Europe were 
a sizeable subgroup within the Zionists. Some of them made aliyah, providing 
the foundation for Ben-Yehudah to build on. (Some historians say, however, 
that his contribution was exaggerated: I remember one article with the quote 
"If Ben-Yehudah didn't exist the Zionists would have had to invent him.")

Sorry, no references at hand -- I could provide them on request.

Sholem Berger


______________________________________________________ 
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Again it is useful to distinguish between an ideology and how it is implemented 
by its adherents.

The fact that many MO's are not meticulous with observing certain dinim is not 
necesarily a function of the MO ideology.

<Please don't consider this a flame> Hypothetically, if one were to say RW'ers 
don't adhere to paying taxes as meticulously as MO's - shoule we attirbute this 
to human frailty or to ideology?

Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<snip>
Again, this is true in the States, but not always in Israel. The gap 
in Israel tends to be much wider. While there are definitely some 
MO who are really serious and committed to learning and careful 
observance of halacha, there are also a lot (maybe even a majority) 
for whom the M part (or the L part in dati leumi) becomes a license 
to go easy on halachic observance and look for kulas that may not 
always be there. OTOH, while there are some "RW" in Israel who 
are open to secular education, they are clearly a minority.

<snip?

-- Carl

I was discussing work with a colleague.  Recnetly I changed positions and I  
said that while I am not working harder at my new job, I do have greater 
responsibilty and therefore I feel entitle to a raise. IOW salary is not only a 
compensation for task, it is also recognition for "scope of responsiblity".  
Reductio ad absurdum: the president of the company gets the most pay not because
he works harder, but since he is responsible for the company as a whole.

Thesis: Metzuvo v'oseh therefore canbe deemeda function of CHOV or 
responsiblity. Task is secondary. 

Illustration: On sukkos, when a woman sits in a sukka and when a man sits in a 
sukka BOTH have accomplished the same task.  However, since the man is metzuveh 
to sit in a sukka he has more responsiblity and therefore more reward.  

Corollary: therefore a person with a lower level of responsiblity cannot be 
"motzi" someone with a higher level of responsility. 

Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<snip>,
The subject of eino metzuveh vi'oseh is a side-issue, it doesn't just evaporate 
because we've resolved the subject of Avraham and b'ris milah. The question is: 
If an both a metzuveh and an eino metzuveh get sechar by doing the mitzvah,
and therefore we can assume they gain from it, then why is only one metzuveh? 
Or to put it another way, given that one is metzuveh and one isn't, how do 
their relationship to the mitzvah vary -- and the solution must account for 
both getting sechar.

-mi

"Clark, Eli" wrote:



> >The Ben Ish Chai lived in Bagdad around 100 years ago,
> 
> Actually, I think the number is 200 years ago which only strengthens
> your point.



Um, no. She was right, he was niftar in 5669 (1909).


---sam

Say I were to have a Sepharadi family over for a meal. Further assume that
while I have no doubt that the family is shomrei Torah and Mitzvos, I have
reason to believe that not all of them are makpid on Bet Yosef meat.

Two questions:

1- Is there halachic grounds for a Sepharadi to be meikil WRT to bet yosef
   meat? What if we're talking about an Ashkenazit who married a Sepharadi
   and their children? (Maybe the issur feels less "real" to someone who
   grew up eating "glatt", or maybe, like many families do WRT eiruv, the
   husband just refuses to impose his chumros on others -- even his wife.
   Except that here is a different kind of chumrah, as it has the weight
   of p'sak.)

2- If not, would I have to worry about lifnei iver and not serve them my meat?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 24-Jan-00: Levi, Yisro
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 104a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Chana/Heather Luntz wrote:



> I'm not bringing halachic sources for a change (although I think they
> support me - everything i have seen says 3 ideally, and 8-9 at worst),
> but my view is never - or at least, she shouldn't sit with her father
> once she is of an age to understand that boys go one place and girls sit
> elsewhere.


My daughter will be four just after Purim. She understands seperate
seating (in fact, she insists on it even when we would rather not), but
there are still times in shul when she wants to come an sit with me,
usually for about five minutes while the Rav is speaking. Then she can't
stand the fact that all her friends are on the other side, and back she
goes.

I guess what I'm trying to illustrate is that once they understand, the
problem should take care of itself. The problem, I suppose, is in
getting them to understand.




> situation.  Up to a certain age she can sit with her Daddy, and then,
> suddenly she can't, 



I'm not sure I understand why she'd want to sit in the mens' section.
When my daughter sits with me, all she gets is me next to her. We don't
talk, she knows better. She can't read yet, and we're too fast for her
to get the words. So she comes over for a kiss on the head or a smile,
but there's no point in staying.


> Of course, this also means you will need to ensure the women's places a
> more attractive place for a girl to want to be, if you want your
> daughters to continue to come, 



I want my wife to continue to come. But tableclothes and flowers aren't
what she comes to shul for. They're quite nice, but not a real reason to
come back.


---sam

*********************


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