Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 310

Friday, January 21 2000

• R. Lichtenstein Article
• Re: The Jerusalem Report's review of Rabbi Rakkafet's book on the Rav zt'l
• Re: Dud Shemesh
• Re: Techelet
• Re: Kitzur
• Re[2]: Histaklus BaNashim
• Re[4]: Rabenu Tam
• Re[2]: wurst fabriken and other concerns of yeshivot
• Re: MO vs RW
• Re: MO vs RW
• Re[2]: Kitzur
• Dud Shemesh
• Re[2]: MO vs RW
• Re: Histaklus BaNashim
• Histaklus BaNashim
• Rabenu Tam/wurst
• Histaklus BaNashim
• Re: Histaklus BaNashim
• Re: MO vs RW
• Is having mixed seating "sordid" - pun
• Re: wurst fabriken
• Re: Re[4]: Rabenu Tam
• Re: Re[2]: wurst fabriken and other concerns of yeshivot

In the Har Etzion article referred to in several
posts, Rav Lichtenstein is quoted as saying: 

"the  daughter of mori ve-rabi  R.  Hutner  z"l
received  a doctorate, as did the daughter of  R. 
Aharon
Kotler.   At least one of R. Moshe Feinstein's 
daughters
went to college . . . ."

Can anyone confirm this, particularly with respect to
r. Ahron Kotler's daughter?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

I recommend checking RYGB's article, "Torah as Biography: Three Seforim of
or about HaRav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik"
    <http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila/review.htm>

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 21-Jan-00: Shishi, Beshalach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 102b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

I recall with irony walking out of shiurim in which talmidim were already 
debating the implications of the rebbe's shiur; and even then no one was forward
enough to ask that rebbe just what did HE mean, which lends a new spin to lo 
habayshan lameid...

IOW, isn't it obvious that if we CAN consult the author or lecturer that it 
would behoove us to do so?

Rich Wolpoe



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Dud Shemesh 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/20/2000 6:04 PM


A poster takes issue WRT to a psak of Shmiras Shabbos Kehilchasa.  Am I alone 
in noting the irony that this follows an extended discussion (which I may 
join, iy"h) of what tefillin the avos wore and what impact on din, halacha 
and minhag archeological findings might have on our conduct, that being a 
case when we cannot ask those of centuries past what they were thinking.  By 
contrast, I believe Rav Neubert is b"h alive and well. While there is 
evidence that he will not necessarily respond to an inquiry (No'am, Vol. 26 
(?)), it behooves the questioner to write a letter to him and ask him these 
questions.  I am told he is fluent in several  languages including English so 
take your pick.  And let us know what he says!

Noach Witty

On Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 06:49:22AM +0200, Akiva Atwood wrote:
: If the indigo is indeed identical to kla ilan,  why use a non tahor sea
: creature as a preferable source? One would infer some benefit from the
: apparently irrelevant accompanying chemicals. "

Notice that the sepia-derived dye has the same problem in spades, as there's
more than one alternative source that at most only differs in incidental
impurities. And more so: since these other prussion blues exist, why did
the gemara worry about indigo, and not them?

An argument made by a number of members of the pro-sepia camp is that we find
other examples where the origin of a chemical affects the halachah even if
there is no lingering trace. Therefore, a chilazon-based prussian blue could
be halachically different than one derived from another source.

The example given is distilled grain-derived vinager is chameitz, even though
it is now purified of anything distinctly grain specific.

I'm not sure how this relates to the discussion of the kashrus of gelatin,
usually based around the S"A's statement that ashes aren't treif regardless
of source.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 21-Jan-00: Shishi, Beshalach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 102b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

Without commenting on the discussion regarding the effect of the Kitzur on 
American Jewry, I think something should be made clear here. The Kitzur 
Shulchan Aruch is not an abbreviated version of the Shulchan Aruch, despite 
its title. There are many statements which are in Rav Nasan Gantzfried's 
Sefer which do not appear in the Shulchan Aruch.

Mordechai Torczyner

Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf

I always sensed that since traditionally women sat in balconies looking down at 
men in shul, that therefore it was not deemed a problem.

Now can you say in OUR society - where perhaps female sexaulity is more out in 
the open - have things changed?  That might be an argument to make a mechitzo 
superior to a balcony in our society.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


BTW, what about histaklus ba'anashim? Why do the same poskim allow women 
watching the dancing on Simchas Torah? Or do they?

-mi

fwiw, my baalei batim ask me, but the KSA says X and how can you say Y?

My answer is that is why you hired me, to read betwen the lines and to highlight
the exceptions.

I have already shown by baalei batim (predominantly yekke) that there can be a 
gap between the written word and how it is implemented.

You COULD say that what I teach is TSBP to the KSA's TSbichsav

OR

You could say I am teaching that there is a gap between lomdus and lemaase. 
<smile>l

fwiw the KSA does provide one "mantra" which I amplify, in case of doubt consult
your LOR.  There is no case that is totally simple, you need not only someone 
LEARNED but someone OBJECTIVE to determine how to implement certain diniM

IOW learn the KSA but do not consider it the last word on any subject.

I fully believe in our society we rely upon experts.  Certainly many (most?) 
people cosnult a phsyician before treating a meidcal conition and do not rely on
reading the PDR!  Similarly, while baale batim should learn the KSA, they should
not rely on their well-meaing but amateur opinions as to how to actually 
implement it lemasse.

Rich Wolpoe




______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Rabenu Tam   

This is my entirely anecdotal and unscientific answer: Ask some of the 
old-timers who remember Maxwell Street and the West Side. The Kitzur Shulchan 
Aruch frequently was used by the local rabbinate as a tool to get immigant 
families to stick to their religion despite the sin and tumult of the New 
World. "Just read and and follow it, or else you won't be written in the Book 
of Life," they said, or words to that effect. Kids were taught to fear the 
KSA. Following the KSA was like trying to disarm a bomb. If you do it right, 
at least you still in the community. But one false move and everything blows 
up. Since many of the kids (and their parents) made plenty of false moves, 
they abandoned observant Judaism. I'm told they left the fold in the 
thousands. 

I don't know about the full SA, which I take to be a complex, subtle, 
brilliant work. But that's a different story.

David Finch

Rabbi Lichtman - former Rosh Yeshiva of Torah Academy of Bergen County- several 
times lamented  as to me how hespeidim and birographies homogenize gedolim. (One
time was at the 100th yahrtzeit of Rabinner Hirsch) It would seem that every 
gadol had the exact same set of characteristics. (I do not mean to imply that 
this was true of the hesped for Hirsch himself; rather he was the exceptoin to 
the rule!) He told me he wanted to hear what was UNIQUE about each individual 
gadol instead of all the common platitudes...

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

OTOH, if it tries to make standard product out of those brightest bochrim, 
among those who don't have that neti'ah toward ego could have been our 
next leaders.

Universal, and therefore standardized, education is probably one of the 
leading causes for the paucity of American home-grown gedolim. (Thanks
again Akiva for providing documentation for an idea I had toyed with before.)

Thanks for the puns, though.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 20-Jan-00: Chamishi, Beshalach 
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 102a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 10:55:06PM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
: Richard Wolpoe says that MO view secular education as aintrinsically good
: not as a necessary evil or a pragmiatic concession to reality  

IOW, they provide different answers to the question: Is Choshein Mishpat
a machshir or a makdish?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 21-Jan-00: Shishi, Beshalach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 102b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

I have no clue how either RRW or RMB's distinctions here can be seen as
inherent chillukim between RW and MO.

1. Even the RW that oppose College, in many cases, are not opposed to
individual pursuits of secular study. On the other hand, much of the MO that
pays lip service to secular education really provides quite a poor
education - certainly in the classics of Western thought, perhaps more
effectively in professional studies.

2. Choshen Mishpat is a law book. It is neither "machshir" or "mekkadesh".
It is one's intent that is the critical essence of what one does with the
world. The intent, or "lishma", of the MO is invariably no purer than the
RW, and vice versa. One who really wants to be mekkadesh the worldy pursuits
of one's life must pursue the guidelines laid down by that renowned MO
thinker ( ;-) ) REE Dessler in his Kuntres Ha'Chesed.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org


----- Original Message -----
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: MO vs RW


> On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 10:55:06PM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> : Richard Wolpoe says that MO view secular education as aintrinsically
good
> : not as a necessary evil or a pragmiatic concession to reality
>
> IOW, they provide different answers to the question: Is Choshein Mishpat
> a machshir or a makdish?
>
> -mi
>
> --
> Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 21-Jan-00: Shishi,
Beshalach
> micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H
> http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 102b
> For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah
>

I believe it is R. *Shlomoh* Ganzfried

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Kitzur 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/21/2000 8:56 AM



Without commenting on the discussion regarding the effect of the Kitzur on 
American Jewry, I think something should be made clear here. The Kitzur 
Shulchan Aruch is not an abbreviated version of the Shulchan Aruch, despite 
its title. There are many statements which are in Rav Nasan Gantzfried's 
Sefer which do not appear in the Shulchan Aruch.

Mordechai Torczyner

Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave 
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library 
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf

	On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00 Carl Sherer wrote:

> I don't understand this. If it's a problem of heating the water, why 
> should it matter whether I then use the water to wash dishes or 
> wash my hands? 
> 
	Offhand I would have to say the reason is because we are michleik
between washing one's self with water heated on shabbos and using the water
to wash other things. It is based on a gezairah from the gemarah . I don't
have any seforim on me so I'd rather not try and give greater detail based
on my memory alone.

Let's acknoweldge that just as there is a gap between lemaseh and lomdus there 
is a gap between theory and reality. MO & YU wadr, falls short at times of its 
own ideals

The ideal of MO includes getting educated in Western culture (similar to TIDE). 
The ideal is that this will enhance one's Torah by adding a dimension to it.

EG, I really began to understand English grammar when I took French (but it 
probably ruined my spelling skills <smile>)  Growing up in an English speaking 
household (both of my parents are "Yankees") gave me a certain mental blocks to 
really undestanding the underlying principles, it was all too unconsious to 
articulate it UNTIL 9th grade French...(kasha: how come dikduk didn't help?)

Here's a Usefful contrast.  Go into a Beis medrash and learn for an hour.  Then 
take your chavros to a college library and learn with him at the top of your 
lungs.  Now THAT's a Kulturkampf in action.

We Yidn learn by shouting and debating. Secular Americans learn by quiet reading
with nary a whisper.  To appreciate a BM go to a library.

MO says" Do not stay insular,rather go out and expose yourself to other drochim 
so as to appreciate what you DO have.  Yes, there is a DANGER of getting 
assimilated by such exposure and that is why I believe it is NOT for all.

Ideally MO should make one comfortable with certain principles of Westernr 
culture w/o compromising observance of halacha.  It's a way of being in harmony 
with society while being different as opposed to being different and therefore 
being in tension or hositily with society.e

Does that help? 

Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: MO vs RW 


I have no clue how either RRW or RMB's distinctions here can be seen as 
inherent chillukim between RW and MO.

1. Even the RW that oppose College, in many cases, are not opposed to 
individual pursuits of secular study. On the other hand, much of the MO that 
pays lip service to secular education really provides quite a poor
education - certainly in the classics of Western thought, perhaps more 
effectively in professional studies.

2. Choshen Mishpat is a law book. It is neither "machshir" or "mekkadesh". 
It is one's intent that is the critical essence of what one does with the 
world. The intent, or "lishma", of the MO is invariably no purer than the 
RW, and vice versa. One who really wants to be mekkadesh the worldy pursuits 
of one's life must pursue the guidelines laid down by that renowned MO 
thinker ( ;-) ) REE Dessler in his Kuntres Ha'Chesed.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659 
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

On Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 09:14:10AM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
: Now can you say in OUR society - where perhaps female sexaulity is more
: out in the open - have things changed? That might be an argument to make
: a mechitzo superior to a balcony in our society.

(I wasn't sure whether to reply to this, or to RCS's comments.)

Ann Landers pointed out a difference about the genders that appears to be
relevent, AND her target audience is more extremely changed on this than
"OUR society" is.
    Women relate to romance as a prelude to eroticism,
    Men relate to the erotic as a prelude to romance.

I think that despite being more out in the open, there's less of an issue
of histaklus without romance leading to hirhurim with women. At least, to
the extent that her generalization holds.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 21-Jan-00: Shishi, Beshalach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 102b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 01:29:32 EST
> From: DFinchPC@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Histaklus BaNashim

<<Actions, on the other hand, can be controlled.  It's one thing to
promote modesty. It's another to pretend to ban the circuitry in
everyone's brain.>>

	To paraphrase what you're saying,  then,  we cannot control histaklus, 
so telling people not to have improper thoughts is futile.  We can,
however,  control actions,  so we put up a mechitza.  Or am I reading you
incorrectly (it has happened to me <g>)?

Gershon

> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:37:01 EST
> From: DFinchPC@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Rabenu Tam  

<<This is my entirely anecdotal and unscientific answer:>>

	And,  to combine two threads,  a lot of baloney.  The   
**overhwhelming**  proportion of immigrants who came to this country in
the very early part of the 20th century discarded their religion upon
arrival if not sooner.  (The saying was that dredging New York Harbor
would turn up thousands of pairs of tefilin whose owners chucked them as
soon as they saw the "promised land")

	Those who didn't, did so soon after.  Those who still didn't,  most of
their kids did as soon as they saw the attractions that America had to
offer.  I daresay less than 1% of them ever looked into a Kitzur Shulchan
Aruch.

Gershon

> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:03:56 -0800 (PST)
> From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Histaklus BaNashim

<<Yes.  I've often believed that the rationale is that since I'm "Torud
Bah" , that, will pre-empt any possible Hihur.  But, I still do not
believe that a typical women's dance at a wedding would produce hirhurim
in any case.>>

	Your status of torud may also prevent your having an objective opinion
as to other people's histaklus/hirhur status.

Gershon

fwiw I heard besheim Dr. Laura:

You cannot always control your taavos in certain situations
BUT
you can control what situations you allow yourself to get into in the first 
place!

So if histaklus is fact of life, then wouldn't avoiding stimulating that 
response be at least recommended if not required.

Rich Wolpoe



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Histaklus BaNashim 


> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 01:29:32 EST 
> From: DFinchPC@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Histaklus BaNashim

<<Actions, on the other hand, can be controlled.  It's one thing to 
promote modesty. It's another to pretend to ban the circuitry in 
everyone's brain.>>

	To paraphrase what you're saying,  then,  we cannot control histaklus, 
so telling people not to have improper thoughts is futile.  We can, 
however,  control actions,  so we put up a mechitza.  Or am I reading you 
incorrectly (it has happened to me <g>)?

Gershon

On Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 08:42:59AM -0600, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer wrote:
: 2. Choshen Mishpat is a law book. It is neither "machshir" or "mekkadesh".

I wasn't commenting about the book, I was commenting about following the book.
IOW, is performing masah umatan al pi halachah merely a kosher practice, or
is it a kadosh one?

:        The intent, or "lishma", of the MO is invariably no purer than the
: RW, and vice versa.

I thought we were discussing ideals, not societies. What's relevent is
that mod-O aspirations are based on the notion that TuM is kadosh, not just
muttar. And a major part of derech eretz in the life of the typical "balebus"
is choshein mishpat.

OTOH, to the RW, going out and earning a parnasah is a necessary evil.

I didn't think what I said was so innovative. There is much Torah written
on the subject of the berachah/tzivui of "umil'u es ha'aretz vikivshuha" vs
the kelala of "bezei'as apecha tochal lechem".

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 21-Jan-00: Shishi, Beshalach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 102b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

perhaps, but having separate seating will have people SORTED (ie by gender) 
<smile> 

Rich Wolpoe

There is an inherent irony here....

Highly creative Gedolim, create breakthru structures via their creatvity.  And 
what do their "followers" do (by and large)? They respond by creating static 
isntituions that enshrine the original breaktrhu thereby surpressing new ones!

IOW, they miss one of the biggest points of their Gadol, IOW they miss imitating
the aspect of their creative originality!

(FWIW, I think that  R SY Weinberg OBM was one of the most supportive Roshei 
Yeshivos I knew about his creative followers.  He encouraged creativity and 
originality. And he met with bitter opposition over it, too.  More detail can be
supplied off list)

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


	This may have been a Slabodka specialty.  Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky was 
known to be an original, even iconoclastic thinker,   as was the Alter 
himself.

Gershon

In a message dated 1/21/00 9:21:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< 
 I fully believe in our society we rely upon experts.  Certainly many (most?) 
 people cosnult a phsyician before treating a meidcal conition and do not 
rely on
 reading the PDR!  Similarly, while baale batim should learn the KSA, they 
should
 not rely on their well-meaing but amateur opinions as to how to actually 
 implement it lemasse.
 
 Rich Wolpoe
  >>
1. I think KSA got its popularity among baale batim in the US because of its 
early translation into English(I always wondered why it was chosen for this 
purpose)
2. The greater issue is when to ask a Rav and when to "trust" the text - 
we've discussed many permutations of this issue

Shabbat Shalom\
Joel Rich

In a message dated 1/21/00 9:25:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< Rabbi Lichtman - former Rosh Yeshiva of Torah Academy of Bergen County- 
several 
 times lamented  as to me how hespeidim and birographies homogenize gedolim. 
(One
 time was at the 100th yahrtzeit of Rabinner Hirsch) It would seem that every 
 gadol had the exact same set of characteristics. (I do not mean to imply 
that 
 this was true of the hesped for Hirsch himself; rather he was the exceptoin 
to 
 the rule!) He told me he wanted to hear what was UNIQUE about each 
individual 
 gadol instead of all the common platitudes...
  >>
This has been stated by R" Lichtenstein on the VBM

Kol Tuv
Joel Rich

*********************


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