Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 309

Friday, January 21 2000

• Re: Limud vs. lemaaseh
• Re: Histaklus BaNashim
• Re: Histaklus BaNashim
• Re: wurst fabriken and other concerns of yeshivot
• Re: Agunot: News flash from the Beit Din Rabbani in Tel Aviv
• Re: Re[2]: Rabenu Tam
• Re: wurst fabriken and other concerns of yeshivot
• Re: The Jerusalem Report's review of Rabbi Rakkafet's book on the Rav zt'l
• Re: Conservatives and Rav Berkovits
• Re[2]: MO vs RW
• Rabenu Tam
• points to ponder
• RE: Techelet
• RE: Avodah V4 #307
• wurst fabriken
• Is having mixed seating "sordid"
• Histaklus BaNashim
• Mixed Seating at Weddings
• RE: Histaklus BaNashim
• Re: Histaklus BaNashim
• Re: Histaklus BaNashim
• Re: Histaklus BaNashim
• Re: Histaklus BaNashim
• Re: Histaklus BaNashim

--- Sholem Berger <sholemberger@hotmail.com> wrote:

> in most yeshives (even the far-left one I
> study in)

What Yeshiva are you in?

HM
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In a message dated 1/20/00 8:12:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

> BTW, as a videographer I watch women dance all the
>  time.  I was hired by R. Zucker, Rosh Kollel of The
>  CCK to videotape 3 of his daughters weddings and was
>  never told not to videotape the women. I also,
>  videotaped in Milwaukee, R. Michel Twersky's
>  daughter's wedding and taped the women dancing there,
>  too. I do almost exclusively Orthodox  weddings and
>  have videotaped women dancing at the most Chasidic and
>  Yeshivishe weddings, attended by many Gedolei Israel,
>  and it was never even hinted to me that I was
>  violating any issurim. 
>  
A professional doing his profession does not have Hirhurim (Al Derech an 
animal breeder), (however Mi Sheiskoi Im Hanoshim does need greater Zehirus 
at other times).

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 04:40:56PM -0800, Harry Maryles wrote:
: Histaklus implies looking at a woman with improper
: thoughts (hirhurim).

As I noted about a month ago, "lihistakeil" is from the Aramaic version of
"seichel" (with a samech, Hebrew has a sin), and therefore implies not only
looking, but also causing oneself to contemplate.

All that said, it appears that many teshuvos do not so limit "histaklus
binashim". So, while I'd agree with your reasoning, many poskim do not.
The question is why.

BTW, what about histaklus ba'anashim? Why do the same poskim allow women
watching the dancing on Simchas Torah? Or do they?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 20-Jan-00: Chamishi, Beshalach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 102a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 1/20/00 6:02:16 PM US Central Standard Time, 
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:

<< A yeshiva is nischt eine wurst fabrique" that a yeshiva is
 not a sasauge factory (i.e. it is not the goal of a yeshiva to produce
 alumni lacking in individuality and creativity, but rather to enable each
 and every student to find himself and develop that which makes him Jewishly
 unique)  >>

Frankly, if that's the wurst thing you could say about the yeshiva system, 
then's its doing okay. Too much intellectual individuality leads to 
competitive egotism, and the brightest buchers think they're real hot dogs. 
It'd be enough that they cut the mustard as competent Torah scholars. Some of 
the slower students, of course, will have to ketch up, but any bucher worth 
his salt will make it. In fact, they will relish the experience. Otherwise, 
they'll find themselves in a real pickle. 

David Finch

I showed this post and some of the ones upon which this post is based to Rabbi Yona
Reiss, Menahel of the Beis Din of America, where I occasionally help out. The
following was his response which I am forwarding, with his permission, to Avodah:

Thank you.  I found these entries intriguing.  We do handle custody cases
and none of our decisions have been challenged in court.  The law in New
York is not clear as there is a split between the first and second
departments concerning the extent to which custody and visitation issues
are subject to arbitration (though arbitration decisions in this area are
in any event traditionally subject to a strict standard of review to
ascertain whether the decision is in the "best interest of the child").  As
a matter of halakha of course, parties should have everything decided by a
bet din and often simply agree to abide by the decision of bet din, whether
or not there is the secular law option of challenging the decision in court.
Yona Reiss

Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:48:57 -0500
>From: "Daniel B. Schwartz" <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
>Subject: Re: Agunot:  News flash from the Beit Din Rabbani in Tel Aviv
>
>I would only point out that in New York, Bet Din has no right to adjudicate
>issues of custody.  The RCA is trying to assume jurisdiction where is has
>none.
>
>- ----- Original Message -----
>From: David Roth <droth@pobox.com>
>To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 3:12 PM
>Subject: Re: Agunot: News flash from the Beit Din Rabbani in Tel Aviv
>
>
>>
>> The following comes from the "Standards and Guidelines with respect to
>> Get Proceedings at the Beth Din of America," which can be found at
>> their web page: http://www.bethdin.org/publications/standardsget.htm
>>
>>     9. When a husband and wife agree to come to the Beth Din to
>>        adjudicate financial (and where appropriate, custodial) matters
>>        relating to the end of their marriage, the Beth Din of America
>>        finalizes the Get at the beginning of the proceeding between the
>>        parties.
>>
>> Kol Tuv,
>>
>> David

In a message dated 1/20/00 6:15:42 PM US Central Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< > SA
 > scares me. It scared tens 
 > of thousands of Jews straight out the religion (at
 > least in its "kitzur" 
 > abbreviation) a hundred years ago.
 
 Would you care to amplify?
 
 I was unaware of this historical phenomenon.
 
  >>

This is my entirely anecdotal and unscientific answer: Ask some of the 
old-timers who remember Maxwell Street and the West Side. The Kitzur Shulchan 
Aruch frequently was used by the local rabbinate as a tool to get immigant 
families to stick to their religion despite the sin and tumult of the New 
World. "Just read and and follow it, or else you won't be written in the Book 
of Life," they said, or words to that effect. Kids were taught to fear the 
KSA. Following the KSA was like trying to disarm a bomb. If you do it right, 
at least you still in the community. But one false move and everything blows 
up. Since many of the kids (and their parents) made plenty of false moves, 
they abandoned observant Judaism. I'm told they left the fold in the 
thousands. 

I don't know about the full SA, which I take to be a complex, subtle, 
brilliant work. But that's a different story.

David Finch

On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 09:25:26PM -0500, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
:                        Too much intellectual individuality leads to 
: competitive egotism, and the brightest buchers think they're real hot dogs. 

OTOH, if it tries to make standard product out of those brightest bochrim,
among those who don't have that neti'ah toward ego could have been our
next leaders.

Universal, and therefore standardized, education is probably one of the
leading causes for the paucity of American home-grown gedolim. (Thanks
again Akiva for providing documentation for an idea I had toyed with before.)

Thanks for the puns, though.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 20-Jan-00: Chamishi, Beshalach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 102a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

in the 1.31.00 edition , Rabbi Moshe Sokoloff pans this book . I think that 
he misses the point that in all of his discourses and shiurim , The Rav Zt'l 
used the medium of the story to illustrate and underline his point.
  More significantly, Rabbi Sokoloff bemoand the fact that the YU /OU camp is 
using the artScroll Chumash, Mishnah, siddur, Shas and machzorim. Yes, There 
is a lack of user friendly material .However, Artscroll filled this gap in no 
small measure. One can reject their hagiographical materials and utilize the 
Siddur, Machzor aan Shas if it enhances one's avodas HaShem. 
     I think that the review misinterprets Rav Lichtenstein's letter to the 
Forward which urged us all to remember that the Rav Z'l sought the best of 
all worlds . For me, I am as much intrigued by the shiurim lzecer avi Mori as 
I am by The lonely Man of Faith. Let's read nefesh ha Rav, Rabbi Genack's 
book and Rabbi Rakkafet's books before we reject any of them out of hand. 
Comments?
                            Zeliglaw@aol.com
                            Steven Brizel

On Sun, Jan 16, 2000 at 10:33:19AM -0600, Micha Berger wrote:
> It could. But not from the MajorDomo archive -- I don't own the Majordomo
> server (we share it with other customers). The question should really be
> asked before typing. If you don't want it on record, maybe you shouldn't be
> saying it in public.

Certainly if I'd had any idea before I posted it that there was any doubt 
I wouldn't have posted it;  now that I know, I'm sorry I posted it.

Thanks for editing it from the web archive;  that's more of a concern
because websearches can bring information out of context so people
wouldn't necessarily see that it was phrased with qualifiers "I heard that"
and "I would love to find out to the contrary."

Janet

Richard Wolpoe says that MO view secular education as aintrinsically good not as
a necessary evil or a pragmiatic concession to reality  

I thought the distincition was obvious

Charidim accpet the existine of a Zionist stat but hey view it as a bedeived.  
Miaxrachi see zionism as a step in the right direction.

Poshut
Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RE: MO vs RW 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/16/2000 10:19 AM


Richard Walpoe gives 4 criteria

1) Pro secular education and worldy culture
2) Liberal wrt mixing of genders at social events 
3) Pro-Zionism, Pro-Medinah   
4) Liberal wrt dialogue with Non-Orthodox institutions - at least wrt 
non-theological matters.


But eg
--everybody needs a secular education to dealwith Shabbos issues, 
Parnasah etc
--everybody supports the state in some form (eg they wouldn't want it 
destroyed with all its pople)

--everybody eg supports democracy to the extent tha it gives us freedom


It seems that all that is left on this list is mix seating (at affairs)


Perhaps Richard wanted to have sharper criteria. Personally I never use 
such
distinctions because the variety is so great 
Russell
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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:56:51 EST
From: DFinchPC@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Rabenu Tam  

<<Call me sentimental, but I *like* the Tofafists. SA scares me. It
scared tens 
of thousands of Jews straight out the religion (at least in its "kitzur"
abbreviation) a hundred years ago. >>

	It is a little simplistic to say that tens of thousands of Jews were
scared out of their religion by the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch.  Those Jews
were,  in the main,  attracted by the freedom of escaping from the ghetto
and becoming enlightened citizens of the world.  Precious little, 
including Tosafos,  could have stood in their way.  I leave it to the
historians among us to identify more specific causes,  but I am pretty
sure it was not the KSA.

Gershon

From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject: intrinsic value of mitzvot

<<Re Pesach-  Is Pesach connected only to Yetziat Mitzrayim or is it an
optimum time for Geula in general?>>

	We observe Purim this year in the second Adar in order to connect the
geula of Purim to that of Pesach.  There may be something to "geula being
in the air" at this time of year.

Gershon

The gemara in Menachot (43a) mentions some chemical tests
> > that distinguish between techelet and plant indigo (called kla ilan in
> > the gemara).  If the dyes are identical, and the other extract
> > components are irrelevant, then how can a chemical test
> > distinguish the two?

Thanks for the informative post, definitely one to save.
Could "irrelevant" here mean in terms of the colour itself,  but that these
other chemicals might act as markers for the tests?  We'd have to know the
chemistry of the tests.
If the indigo is indeed identical to kla ilan,  why use a non tahor sea
creature as a preferable source? One would infer some benefit from the
apparently irrelevant accompanying chemicals. "
Mrs. GA

> >
> 	If this is the case then it sounds like the pipes are
> heating thge
> water and not the sun. Therefore, it should be toldos chama
> and it should be
> assur gezeirah atu toldos ohr.
>

Which, according to my understanding, is a reason why the poskim didn't like
the original p'sak, and why it was changed for the second p'sak.

The cold water that gets heated up as it enters the tank is another reason.

Akiva


A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:44:36 -0500
> From: "Daniel B. Schwartz" <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> Subject: wurst fabriken and other concerns of yeshivot

<<Last night during a conversation with a friend, I recalled a famous
like of
R. Hutner, that "A yeshiva is nischt eine wurst fabrique" that a yeshiva
is
not a sasauge factory (i.e. it is not the goal of a yeshiva to produce
alumni lacking in individuality and creativity, but rather to enable each
and every student to find himself and develop that which makes him
Jewishly unique)  I wonder if today's yeshivot really adhere to that
principle?>>

	The way I heard it is he said that many yeshivos are a mitas sdom "nor
mir hakt up by der kop nisht bei di fis"

	This may have been a Slabodka specialty.  Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky was
known to be an original, even iconoclastic thinker,   as was the Alter
himself.

Gershon

> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:50:47 -0500
> From: "Krischer, Ellen L (Ellen)" <krischer@lucent.com>
> Subject: RE: Is having mixed seating "sordid"

<<I think it reflects your own opinions on the question of mixed seating
that you consider that the Rosh Yeshiva "caved in" or that the past could
in any way be described as "sordid".  Neither of those sentiments is
expressed in the story as originally told.>>

	Please Please Please Please.

	Please do not speculate upon my opinions.  If there is any need at all
for anyone to know my opinions on the burning issue of mixed seating, 
and I cannot imagine why that might be necessary,  I have already stated
them.  Imputing negative opinions to me due to your misunderstanding of
what I wrote is not nice.

	I was at first unsure of the intent of the story.  I posited two
alternate interpretations. Since the leshon hara one was not understood
by someone who questioned me what I meant,  I answered by dramatizing
that option.  

	If you really must know,  my intent was to question the necessity of
telling such a story which          ***it appeared to me***        
***might***    have been said in a derogatory way.  I asked for
clarification and along the way needed to clarify my leshon hara concern.

	Ribbono Shel Olom.

Gershon

> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:40:56 -0800 (PST)
> From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Histaklus BaNashim

 When women
> dance even in non-erotic fashion it can stir up, in
> some people gazing at them, some hihurim, which would
> qualify that activity as Histaklus.  The debate here
> has been about whether watching women dance at
> weddings qualifies halachicly as Hastalkus or whether
> it is qualifies as just innocent looking.

It has? I thought that it was a given that if the men could see 
women dancing that it was at least possible that there would be 
some histaklus, and that the debate is about whether we plan 
weddings based upon the norm or whether we worry about the men 
who cannot control themselves. 

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:05:00 +0000
> From: Chana/Heather Luntz <Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: mxed seating at weddings
[snip]
> I guess what I don't understand is, according to those who claim the
> issue of dancing at a wedding is histaklus, what makes women dancing on
> one side of a room (with or without a mechitza and whether or not your
> table is beside the women's dance area) worse than looking at her when
> you are talking to her, 

Allow me to put in legalese (I say that so that all the non-lawyers 
will realize that this is not intended as a chauvinistic comment). 
One is a nuisance. The other is an attractive nuisance.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> and it was never even hinted to me that I was
> violating any issurim.
>

But wouldn't there would be a difference between looking for Parnasa and
stam looking (similar to playing music during the three weeks).

Akiva



A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

In a message dated 1/20/00 11:54:25 PM US Central Standard Time, 
sherer@actcom.co.il writes:

<< I thought that it was a given that if the men could see 
 women dancing that it was at least possible that there would be 
 some histaklus, and that the debate is about whether we plan 
 weddings based upon the norm or whether we worry about the men 
 who cannot control themselves.  >>

How can anyone control histalklus? It's primally involuntary. Even without 
specific visual stimulation, all men without certain health deficits are 
going to harbor unchaste thoughts. These thoughts can be triggered by all 
sorts of things. Actions, on the other hand, can be controlled. 

It's one thing to promote modesty. It's another to pretend to ban the 
circuitry in everyone's brain.

David Finch

On 20 Jan 00, at 19:56, Micha Berger wrote:

> BTW, what about histaklus ba'anashim? Why do the same poskim allow women
> watching the dancing on Simchas Torah? Or do they?

I think there is an assumption that women are better able to control 
themselves than are men. That assumption underlies all of the 
harchokos of Hilchos Nida where with very few exceptions the 
issurim are on the man and not on the woman.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 21 Jan 00, at 1:29, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> How can anyone control histalklus? It's primally involuntary. 

I think you just summed up the argument for having a mechitza.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

--- Yzkd@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 1/20/00 8:12:22 PM Eastern
> Standard Time, 
> hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:
> 
> > BTW, as a videographer I watch women dance all the
> >  time.  I was hired by R. Zucker, Rosh Kollel of
> The
> >  CCK to videotape 3 of his daughters weddings and
> was
> >  never told not to videotape the women. I also,
> >  videotaped in Milwaukee, R. Michel Twersky's
> >  daughter's wedding and taped the women dancing
> there,
> >  too. I do almost exclusively Orthodox  weddings
> and
> >  have videotaped women dancing at the most
> Chasidic and
> >  Yeshivishe weddings, attended by many Gedolei
> Israel,
> >  and it was never even hinted to me that I was
> >  violating any issurim. 
> >  
> A professional doing his profession does not have
> Hirhurim (Al Derech an 
> animal breeder), (however Mi Sheiskoi Im Hanoshim
> does need greater Zehirus 
> at other times).

Yes.  I've often believed that the rationale is that
since I'm "Torud Bah" , that, will pre-empt any
possible Hihur.  But, I still do not believe that a
typical women's dance at a wedding would produce
hirhurim in any case.

HM
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In a message dated 1/21/00 7:04:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< 
 Yes.  I've often believed that the rationale is that
 since I'm "Torud Bah" , that, will pre-empt any
 possible Hihur.  But, I still do not believe that a
 typical women's dance at a wedding would produce
 hirhurim in any case.
 
 HM
 _ >>
Is this a blanket exemption inherent in the briah(as is tan du according to 
many)?
The nafka mina being what if a photographer does feel hirhurim?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

*********************


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