Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 302

Tuesday, January 18 2000

• Re: Charedi vs. MO
• Re: use of chareidi on Avodah
• Re: Taxonomy
• Re[2]: Charedi vs. MO
• Re[3]: Charedi vs. MO
• Re: use of chareidi on Avodah
• Re[2]: Rabbi vs. Dr. Lamm
• Re[2]: MO vs Chareidi
• Re: mixed dancing
• Setting Standards
• Use of Charedi on Avodah
• Charedi vs. MO
• Ad absurdum
• Re: use of chareidi on Avodah
• Rav Moshes Teshuvot on Gittin
• Re[2]: Kavana Betfila
• Re: Charedi vs. MO
• Vending Machines on Shabbos
• Re: boro park eruv
• histaklus b'nashim rokdos
• boro park eruv
• Yated
• MO/Rav
• New York Times

On Tue, Jan 18, 2000 at 11:27:28AM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
: Chassidim are a alogous to the middos of Yitzchok Avinu...
: Yeshivishe types model Yaakov Avinu (yosheiv Ohalim)
: MO'S" model Avrohom Avinu (Chessed, openness to the outside)

According to this thumbnail sketch, what does Ya'akov's title of "Bechir
shebe'Avos" imply? I also greatly question the identification of mod-O
with chessed. I don't think any one community is more chessed-oriented than
any other. The circle of recipients and the types of chessed differ, not
necessarily the quantity of time and effort.

I understand the source of your identification, though. I just think it
oversimplifies to the point of fallacy.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 18-Jan-00: Shelishi, Beshalach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 101a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

--- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> Someone asked about how I self-identify.
> 
> As you've seen from these past few days, I don't see
> these terms as referring
> to sets of people, except maybe fuzzy sets of them.
> The frum community is
> differentiated over numerous axis. Picture them (or
> at least three of them)
> orthogonal to eachother, so that these issues become
> the dimensions of a
> space. Each person's beliefs are some point in that
> space. He places himself
> so far on the Religious Zionist axis, that far on
> the issue of TIDE, this
> far on adherence to Toras Imecha, so deep of a
> belief in Da'as Torah, etc...
> 

Thank you Micha for a very insightful post. I pretty
much agree with just about everything you said.  I
always say about myself that "You can't peg me." Like
you, I think I am often labled by my MO friends as RW
and by my RW firends as MO.  Maybe that's because I
wear a black hat to MO affairs and a Kipa Sruga to RW
affairs.   :)

If I have to label myself I would use the word
Centrist which, to me, means I try to incorporate the
best of both worlds into my Hashkafa.  I tend to agree
with the Riskin view that MO has too long been an
excuse to justify a lifestyle which may violate
Halacha.  I don't, however, necessarily see belief in
Religious Zionism to be a necessary component of
Centrism, however, because I genuinely see all sides
of the argument, from Kach to Neturei Karta and
everything in between. My views on that issue are
probably somewhere in the midlle and I suppose could
be qualified as centrist on this issue as well. 

Centrism to me is a Halacha based label which should
mean strict adherence to Halacha, with a strong
emphasis on learning Torah, while viewing positively
the best of western culture and living a lifestyle
harmonious with both.

The RW Hashkafa also views Halacha as it's essence but
generaly speaking, views negatively all of western
culture. The RW believes that engagement with western
cultrue should only be done cautiously, with a suspect
eye, and only as is necessary for survival in the
modern era.  The very word "modern" has negative
connotations to them. This is the real reason why, I
believe, the RW assurs the internet, except as
necessary for Parnassa.

These two Hashkafos have intersting ways of expression
by those who identify with one or the other. I have
many friends who are squarely in the RW camp, and so
identify themselves, yet they all are proffesionals...
Dr.s, lawyers, CPAs, etc. Many, but not all, use the
internet, have TVs go to movies, and do all the things
that a Centrist does.  But their attitude is
apologetic. About owning TVs they will tell you that
It's bad but "I can't help it", or, I "This is my only
vice" or "I'm going to get rid of it someday" or they
will just try and hide from the world that they own
one. By the same token Centrists will often be seen as
rejecting TVs anc Movies and even the internet because
they will often accept the arguments made against
those items. College is treated by the RW as a
necessary evil for purposes of Parnassa, whereas the
Centrist views positively, the study of Mada and
parnassa is besides the point.  Both groups end up
with many college educated bal Habatim.

Labeling is useful in that it defines the population
and Klal Israel and seeks to identify groups within it
and their representation as a percentage of each group
to the whole. In this way we can see which direction
we are going as a people. But as Micha pointed out
there is a lot of cross belief along various spectra
of Orthodoxy and eventhough some groups are more
"orthodox" in defining themselves (e.g. Lubavitchers,
although they are going through a definitional crisis
themselbves right now) than others, there is really no
way clearly define all groups. But I still believe it
is useful to try.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

In a message dated 1/18/00 12:15:04 AM US Central Standard Time, 
sholemberger@hotmail.com writes:

<< >Taxonomy? We stuff kishkes, not rabbis.
 
 You're thinking of taxidermy. Point taken, though. >>

Oh. 

David Finch

Does Avrohom's Chesed negate HIS gevura?

Of course not! this is about trends and generalities.

Chessed is not strictly about money, it's about a generous attitudes for ALL 
briyos, it's about kiruv and outreach, even outreach to non-Jews.  Chessed is an
attitude that cause Avrohom to stand up for Sodom and risk his neck for Lot. A 
lot of "judgemental" people might have said (correctly) that since  Lot is a 
rosho, why bother with him?.  similarly Avrohom stood up for Yishmoel despite 
his flaws.

No group monopolizes any one trait, of course now THAT would be a fallcious 
understanding of my oversimplification <smile>

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Charedi vs. MO 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/18/2000 12:00 PM


On Tue, Jan 18, 2000 at 11:27:28AM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote: 
: Chassidim are a alogous to the middos of Yitzchok Avinu...
: Yeshivishe types model Yaakov Avinu (yosheiv Ohalim)
: MO'S" model Avrohom Avinu (Chessed, openness to the outside)

According to this thumbnail sketch, what does Ya'akov's title of "Bechir 
shebe'Avos" imply? I also greatly question the identification of mod-O
with chessed. I don't think any one community is more chessed-oriented than 
any other. The circle of recipients and the types of chessed differ, not 
necessarily the quantity of time and effort.

I understand the source of your identification, though. I just think it 
oversimplifies to the point of fallacy.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 18-Jan-00: Shelishi, Beshalach 
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 101a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Also there is a connection with Vayehcerad Yitachok and "chareidim".

RW



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re[2]: Charedi vs. MO 


I heard a description as follows:

Loosely:

Chassidim are a alogous to the middos of Yitzchok Avinu, iow they combine 
Yiro'h and Gevuro and also the mido of Yitachok to "laugh" or to "play" 

Carrying this analoagy one step further:

Yeshivishe types model Yaakov Avinu (yosheiv Ohalim)
MO'S" model Avrohom Avinu (Chessed, openness to the outside)


Rich Wolpoe



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
h).

On 18 Jan 00, at 8:17, Micha Berger wrote:

> OTOH, I think it does little good to pretend these points in ideological
> space don't exist. It's a *sociological* reality that we as a community have
> to bridge. IOW, if you want more shuls like yours, where:
> 
> : A Shabbos at my shul has a very nice mix of black hats of varied brims,
> : and kipot of all types (not to mention the variety on the other side of
> : the mechitza). And also have exactly one member with a beautiful
> : streimel.
> 
> To get there we have to know why things are the way they are. BTW, the same
> is true of most of the shuls in Passaic as well.

Following up on what I wrote this morning, I think Passaic has a 
large percentage of people who grew up "out of town." 

-- Carl (former Passaic resident who lives in the only better place in 
the world :-) 


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

and FWIW t Belkin was referred to as Dr. Belkin and I believe  Revel was refered
to as Dr. Revel and I don't think in either case it was meant to be a derisive 
title.


Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: re: Rabbi vs. Dr. Lamm 

The objection to Avodah members referring to YU's president as Dr. Lamm, 
rather than Rabbi Lamm, is misdirected.  Yesterday's mail brought a copy 
of Yeshiva University Review, in which there are many references to Dr. 
Lamm, but not one single mention of Rabbi Lamm--not even in a paragraph 
about his writing a d'var Torah in the Kollel publication. R'tzono shel 
Adam kvodo, and this is obviously his ratzon.
Elazar M. Teitz

let's remember to distinguish between People and Ideologies

Just because MO might be contrues as  a more tolerant philosophy or mindset does
not neccesarily imply that its adherents toe the party line.

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: MO vs Chareidi 

In vol 295 we were inforned that it is MO who are intolerant, 

RC Brown wrote:

>>As for walking behind a women halacha l'ma'aseh, I think for most of us who 
venture forth on the city streets it is inevitable that women cross our path, 
yet we still go about our business, (see IG"M 56).  Leaving the IG"M aside, I 
would imagine the source of the heter is based on the simple fact that for 
most people walking down a street does not elicit an erotic reaction.  
L'mashal, the Levush (discussed by Eli Clarke) applied the same logic to 
mixed seating at weddings, and the roots of the sevara are really in Tos. 
Kiddushin 81 regarding hishtamshus b'nashim.>>

I think R. Shlomo Zalman has a teshuvah in Minchas Shlomo in which he is matir 
it for considerations of manners - "nimusim."  I know of one bachur who 
photocopied it and brought it with him on dates with girls from a certain "very 
frum" seminary who got upset when he held the door open for them.


>>To use another example: halacha l'ma'aseh, what is the din with regard to 
shaking hands with a women?  The issur relates back to a chashash hirhur, and 
those who are matir do so assuming that a handshake cannot be misconstrued as an
erotic gesture in today's work environment.  Obviously, in these areas one must 
tread with caution and not arbitrarily apply kulos, but by the same token to 
brandish about issurei d'oraysa without regard to other factors is wrong.>>

This boils down to the machlokes over negiah shelo bederech chiba.  Only if it 
is mutar (the She'arim Metzuyanim Bahalachah makes a good case for it being 
mutar) in that respect can you discuss the issue of hirhurim.

Well Said

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
 IMNSHO any RY has the right to set standards for his talmidim so long as he 
does not try to impose them on the rest of the world.
<snip>
Simcha Klagsbrun

RC Sherer wrote:

>>I think that anyone who grew up "out of town" (read - outside the five boro's 
of New York City, Wetschester, Long Island and certain close-in suburbs of New 
Jersey) who has maintained contact with their childhood friends has at least 
some friends who are in "the other camp." Today "in town" has extended to places
like Chicago which is represented so vocally on this list.>>

I found out quickly when I moved from a close-in suburb in NJ to Brooklyn (with 
a stop in yeshiva in between) that anywhere outside of Boro Park, Flatbush, 
Lakewood, and Monsey is out-of-town.  Places in Brooklyn like Mills Basin are 
considered by many to be out of town.  Queens is semi-out-of-town.  Passaic, 
Teaneck, Long Island are out-of-town.  Chicago, Baltimore, Denver, Toronto, etc.
are WAY out of town.  Staten Island is semi-out-of-town but those hefty tolls 
don't make it a popular place to pick up dates.

Unfortunately, these labels come up frequently when I try to set up shidduchim 
and not withou reason.  There are a lot of little "minhagim" (what those of us 
out-of-towners call meshugasim) that are strictly "in-town" and out-of-towners 
don't know about.  For example, my wife later told me that she was disappointed 
that I didn't send her a bouquet of flowers for her Shabbos Kallah.  "Everyone" 
knows that the choson is supposed to send them.

>I heard a description as follows:
>
>Loosely:
>
>Chassidim are a alogous to the middos of Yitzchok Avinu, iow they combine
>Yiro'h and Gevuro and also the mido of Yitachok to "laugh" or to "play" 
>
>Carrying this analoagy one step further:
>
>Yeshivishe types model Yaakov Avinu (yosheiv Ohalim)
>MO'S" model Avrohom Avinu (Chessed, openness to the outside)

Lubavitch shluchim claim (and rightly so, imho) that _their_ behavior
follows Avrohom Avinu.

-- Eric

I would like to thank Micha Berger for his explanation of Ad absurdum 
arguments. I still believe however that the majority of the time an Ad 
absurdum argument is flawed, the person making the argument knows it is 
flawed, and is using it as some form of an ad hominem attack. The reason is 
because ad absurdum leaves no room for moderation. Good things can be taken 
to far. Tsniyus and shmiras eynayim are good things. Yes, theoretically, they 
*could* be used to prove that one should not go to work or save a drowning 
woman. And yes they have been used as such by certain people at certain 
times. But that doesn't void the validity of the argument. Moderation tells 
us that there is such a thing as a chasid shota. This leaves me with one of 2 
conclusions 1) The Torah does not view Ad absurdum as a valid form of 
argument. or 2) It is a valid form of argument but the majority of the time 
it is used incorrectly. 

On 18 Jan 00, at 9:18, Harry Maryles wrote:

Like
> you, I think I am often labled by my MO friends as RW
> and by my RW firends as MO.  Maybe that's because I
> wear a black hat to MO affairs and a Kipa Sruga to RW
> affairs.   :)

I think that makes you a "contrarian." :-) 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Shoshana L. Boublil quotes a letter from R. Moshe saying 
"...Ve'Ein Reshut LeShum Tzad Le'Agen... BeShum Ikuv 
MeeTzad Tevi'ot Mamon..." and informs us that dayanim may know be mesader a 
Get even before all financial agreements are made.

It seems to me that there is no reason to assume that this what R. Moshe had 
in mind. It is very possible that he was merely saying that neither side has 
a right to make ridiculous financial demands but rather should immediately go 
to bes din to clarify the financial considerations and then give a Get. The 
reason I say this is that In IGROS MOSHE even haezer chelek # 4 siman # 
115-116 Rav Moshe is adamant that all financial considerations MUST be 
complete BEFORE giving a Get and that this is something that "all batei dinim 
in the world" should know. Furthermore, R. Moshe claims that a Get is a rayah 
(proof) that all such considerations were completed and even if one side has 
signed documents that they are owed money, the documents can be ignored bec. 
a Get is proof that all is taken care of. He even goes further and claims 
that any claims made after the giving of a get may retroactively invalidate 
the get. I hope any bes din reading this new letter is aware of these 
teshuvot and doesn't draw any incorrect conclusion from this new letter.  

And consider a linear Siddur...

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: re: Kavana Betfila 

Here's another idea, but this one only works when davening by yourself, or 
with an unusually slow minyan -- Daven the words by heart, but have your 
eyes on the *translation*. Suddenly you find out much of what you've been 
missing.

Akiva Miller

and fwiw in many ways I consider Lubavich "modern".

Rich W.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Charedi vs. MO 


Lubavitch shluchim claim (and rightly so, imho) that _their_ behavior 
follows Avrohom Avinu.

-- Eric

Fwiw I discussed this with a frum friend whose in the business.

He says he does run his machines do run on Shabbos and he gives away any 
profits.

Also fwiw since his machines are in business places, he doesn't get a great deal
of activity on weekends.

Rich Wolpoe



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RE: Vending Machines on Shabbos 



It's not practical to turn the vending machines off.  A friend of mine is 
actually in the business, and he owns hundreds of machines in many, many 
different locations.  As for your other concerns, I don't have any answers 
offhand (and I don't remember R' Frand discussing them).  

Perhaps since the owner of the machines doesn't know definitively that any 
specific item was sold on Shabbos, and since rov of the money in the machine 
came from weekday transactions, each coin is mutar because of the rov. 

~ Aryeh

In a message dated 1/18/00 1:03:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
gil.student@citicorp.com writes:

<< I live in Flatbush, not BP.  But from what I've seen and heard no one is 
using 
 or going to use the eruv.  Who wants to be meikel in this day and age?
 
  >>
Was  this said with a grin? 

Kol tuv,
Joel Rich

Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:41:32 +0000
From: sadya n targum <t>
Subject: re:histaklus b'nashim rokdos

<<R. Gershon Dubin writes:
 	Which chasunas have you been going to for the last 20 years? 

Either we go to different weddings, or it's all in the eyes of the
beholder.>>

	It is in the eye of the beholder.  If you have never been to a chasuna
with other than tznuah dancing by the women (let's leave men's dancing
for another thread!),  then we have been going to different weddings,  or
you are not informed.  While I usually do try to see my wife or daughters
dancing,  most of my information on the quality of dancing on that side
of the mechitza comes from them.  

Gershon

Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:48:19 -0800
From: "Newman,Saul Z" <Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org>
Subject: boro park eruv

<<have been following this topic in jewish press.  can't get a feel for
what
is going on on the ground. are people really going to use it?>>

	That may be because you are looking in the wrong place.  Ask YOUR rav, 
or ask one each of the rabbonim on either side of the controversy to
explain it to you.  Review your Hilchos Eruvin first,  of course.

Gershon

Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:06:48 EST
From: 
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #299-Yated

In a message dated 00-01-17 15:04:43 EST, you write:

 > <<Yated itself uses the Internet in a way that has been halachically
 > approved by the special beis din  >>

<<And which beis din approved all the hotza'as sheim rah against Rav Kook
 that 
they knowingly published,as recorded in Rabbi Alcharar's book "Lichvodah
shel 
Torah"?>>

	I have tried,  but cannot for the life of me figure out how this
statement,  if it in fact is mutar al pi din (probably NOT),  ties in to
the discussion.

Gershon

From: DFinchPC@aol.com
Subject: Re: MO/Rav

<<What would Mussar think of one's use of the Internet? What would it
think, or 
lead one to think, about whether one will or will not attend a wedding
with 
mixed seating? Or allowing women to dance non-erotically in front of men?
Or 
worrying these issues too much? Or engaging in excessive taxidermy, I
mean 
taxonomy?>>

	My credentials as a baal mussar:  nil.  As such,  what would Mussar say
about these issues?  That when your neshama is at stake, there is no such
thing as worrying too much.  That you should determine the halacha and
then go lifnim mishuras hadin.

	No taxonomy OR taxidermy.  Maybe not even taxicabs.

Gershon

Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:18:38 EST
From: Chaimwass@aol.com
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #299

<<Follow-up to the follow-up question: Any talk heard in or around Torah 
Umesorah about restricting the delivery of and the study of NY Times in
the 
classroom>>

	Mokom hinichu lecha avosecha lehisgader bo.  As has been mentioned here
often,  the gedolim have much on their plate,  and cannot possibly
address everything.  

Perhaps a little talk from the pulpit about the turn the Times has taken?
 

Speak to the authorities at your local yeshiva about
restricting/censoring (there,  I've said it!!)?  

A letter of protest to the editor of the Times?
	
	"They"  really should do something about "it"  is all too easy. 

	The New York Times (and the rest of the "media") just ain't what it used
to be.  When Monica became front page news I cancelled my subscription. I
also stopped listening to the news on the radio ,  especially with kids
in the car.

	The "Charedim"  who have been bashed on this list for their
"close-mindedness" in keeping secular media out of their home are not all
wrong.

Greetings (and regards to Saul) from beautiful downtown Sdom.
Gershon

*********************


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