Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 299

Monday, January 17 2000

• Re: Modern Orthodox narrow mindness
• Re: Mixed seating
• "Rupture and Reconstruction" by R. Prof. Haym Soloveitchik
• RE: Modern Orthodox narrow mindness
• RE: Modern Orthodox narrow mindness
• Mishnah in Taanis - Women dancing
• mixed seating at weddings
• sorry
• MO and the Rav
• Internet and Issur Histaklus Binashim
• Re: Internet and Issur Histaklus Binashim
• Re: Charedi vs. MO
• Rav Berkovits and Rav Weinberg
• Re: mixed dancing
• Re: MO/Rav
• Re: Avodah V4 #296
• Re: Modern Orthodox narrow mindness
• Re: Hamefursamos einan tzrichos lerayoh.
• Re: use of chareidi on Avodah
• Bad Humor
• Re: Rav Berkovits and Rav Weinberg
• Re: mixed dancing
• Re: MO/Rav
• Fwd: Need Orthodox Rabbi Support
• Re: mixed dancing
• Re: Avodah V4 #296
• RE:Mixed seating at weddings

In a message dated 1/16/00 1:46:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

> Look, if I believe that my position is the correct one
>  I am entitled to argue in favor of it's acceptence by
>  all, with everythying that is availabe at my disposal
>  to TRY and prove my point. If I am seen to be wrong by
>  others, they should try and convince me otherwise,
>  including using the "ad absurdum" argument against me.
>  It's called debate.
>  
See Taanis 4a Rashi D"H "Oireisoh Mrascha Lei" it is a "Limud Zchus".

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 1/16/00 4:33:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
shinname@UMDNJ.EDU writes:

>   R Zirkind wrote that men watching women dance is assur.  Source?
>  
I had quoted the source in a earlier message, if it was not received I will 
rewrite IY"H.

But as a Yid always answers with a question :) what would be assur ?  Have we 
reached the level of "Es Ruach Hatumoa A'avir"  and see Sukka 52a.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

Regarding R. Prof. Haym Soloveitchik's seminal paper in 1994 Tradition
on "Rupture and Reconstruction": Other than the two articles in a 1997
issue of Tradition and the two in the 1997 Torah and Mada - have there
been any other pieces published?
	Aryeh

> You wouldn't agree that taking an opponents view to
> it's absurd conclusion is a valid step towards
> rebuttal of your opponents view?

Not if one has respect for the other person and his point of view. You could
have brought the example of assuring books and magazines because pornography
exists, or assuring the phone because people speak lashon haRah. Those would
have been a valid ad absurdum arguments, making your point while not making
fun of the opponent.

Akiva



A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

>
> Who's right here?
>

I was using the term debate in the fashion that High School debating teams
use it. When the winning team can turn around, argue the opposite side, and
win again, then Emes is not what is being determined here. Who the better
speaker is -- that is what is being determined.

Akiva


A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

R' sadya n targum wrote:
> Furthermore, if there is an issur of men watching women dance, how come
>  not one rishon nor one of the g'dolei ha'achronim (as far as my limited
>  knowledge extends) comments on the mishna in Ta'anis, ad shebo R.E. Kitov
>  and clarified it?

I understood that Mishnah to refer to a group of women walking in a circle, 
not exactly a dance. (This is the same idea I have seen used to permit a 
"Siman Tov UMazel Tov" dance for a Chasan after his Aufruf Aliyah on Shabbos, 
despite the prohibition against dancing on Shabbos.)

Mordechai
Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf

> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 00:14:31 +0000
> From: sadya n targum <targum1@juno.com>
> Subject: re: mixed seating at weddings
 
<< Since my question specified that the dancing was not of an erotic type
(and certainly the typical dancing at a frum chasuna is not)>>

	Which chasunas have you been going to for the last 20 years?  Or maybe
you just don't look and your wife/daughters don't tell you.  The dancing
is not  *erotic*  but it is certainly, often, provocative.  Even at the
"shenste" chasunas, their are always some wild dancers among the
women/girls.

Gershon

Apologies to the list;  apparently my mail client stuttered and sent all
my posts in duplicate.

Gershon

> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 13:57:18 -0800 (PST)
> From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: MO and the Rav

<<Also, I think it should be clarified that "R" in front or someone's
name does not automaticly confer Rabbinic ordination. Nor does it
automaticly mean Rabbi. Common
> parlance utilizes the word "Reb", taken from Yiddish, to mean Mr., not
Rabbi.  The Letter "R" before a name can, therefore, mean either Reb
(Mr.) or Rabbi or Rav.>>

	Or,  on this list,  Rabbanit/Rebbitzen.

Gershon

> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 01:28:36 +0200
> From: "Shlomo Godick" <shlomog@mehish.co.il>
> Subject: re: Internet and Issur Histaklus Binashim 

<<Yated itself uses the Internet in a way that has been halachically
approved by the special beis din established for Internet issues (e.g.,
when it downloaded the NYTimes article).    

Comments anyone?>>

	One comment:  who is the bes din le'inyonei Internet and what are their
qualifications for same?  Do they tear kriah after logging on as did a
bes din who had to hear chiruf vegiduf in order to convict?

Gershon

On 17 Jan 00, at 9:22, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> > Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 01:28:36 +0200
> > From: "Shlomo Godick" <shlomog@mehish.co.il>
> > Subject: re: Internet and Issur Histaklus Binashim 
> 
> <<Yated itself uses the Internet in a way that has been halachically
> approved by the special beis din established for Internet issues (e.g.,
> when it downloaded the NYTimes article).    
> 
> Comments anyone?>>
> 
> 	One comment:  who is the bes din le'inyonei Internet and what are their
> qualifications for same?  Do they tear kriah after logging on as did a
> bes din who had to hear chiruf vegiduf in order to convict?

I assume the reference was to the special beis din whose names 
appeared on the same posters announcing the psak of R. Elyashiv 
et al.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

----- Original Message -----
From: Avodah <owner-avodah@aishdas.org>
To: <avodah-digest@aishdas.org>
Subject: Avodah V4 #298
> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 20:56:56 -0500
> From: Eric Simon <erics@radix.net>
> Subject: Charedi vs. MO
>
> >Reading letters by Rav Kook ZT"L and some of the posts in
> >the latest issues of Avodah, and seeing the ban on
Internet
> >has brought fwd, IMHO one of the basic true differences
> >between so-called Chareidi and Dati Leumi:  Yirah vs.
Ahava.
>
> Hmm, where does that leave Chassidim?  Certainly their
focus seems to be
> Ahava (and chesed over g'vurah).

Chassidim are the Yotzei Min HaKlal that prove the Klal
(exception to the rule that prove the rule, so to speak) --
on one hand they do perform many types of Avodat Hashem with
Simcha -- on the other hand they are among the most fearful
of "what will this do to us/ how will the yetzer utilize
this against us?"

> In my naive brain: charedi implies black hats & coats,
beards, tons of
> children; MO implies knitted kippa, short or no beards,
regular clothes,
> fewer children.  Chassidim _would_ be a subset of Charedi
under this
> lifestyle definition.

So where do you put so-called MO (or Dati Leumi) who have
long beards, a dozen children and a knitted kippa?

That is exactly my point.  There are individuals in every
community who don't do everything halachically - if everyone
was perfect we woudn't hear about so-called Chareidi or MO
thieves.

I wish we could all remember that we are one people and that
our differences, as long as they are halachically based,
should be respected by all and not be a basis for lashon
hara etc.

> Confusedly yours,
>
> Eric

Shoshana L. Boublil

I asked Marc Shapiro and he said that he has a letter in which R. Weinberg is very critical of R. Berkovits' view of halakhah, saying that it is like the Conservative's approach. He also told me that a leading Modern Orthodox figure has urged him not to publish the letter in its entirety (i. e., to omit R. Berkovits' name). 

      Zvi 


LYCOShop is now open. On your mark, get set, SHOP!!!
http://shop.lycos.com/

<< The SA EH 21 says one is not allowed to walk behind a woman.
 
 Lomadnu dancing me'kal va'chomer.
  >>

Do you mean to tell us that you are noheg halacha l'ma'aseh not walking 
behind a woman???  Lo tasuru if women are dressed properly???

See Kol Bo (66) who cites a cherem placed by MaHaRaM Rotenberg on mixed 
dancing.  (Guess the MaHaRaM also forgot lo tasuru?)

<< Many (if not most, if not all) people are unique, but that does
 not necessarily preclude labeling them, as long as one defines the label. >>

What is the point of labelling people?  Why not simply discuss the Rav's 
thought without seeking to reduce that complexity into a conveneint label?  
Taxonomy is valuable only to the extent that it increases understanding; in 
this case, it most certainly does not.  

<<Eliezer Ben Yehduda pretty much was a one-man movement to restore 
 hebrew as a spoken language >>

Ben Yehudah created a Vaad HaLashon to assist him in the movement. That Vaad 
HaLashon functions today as a quasi-government agency in Israel.  Some close 
associates of his were frum, like Yechiel Michael Pines, while others who 
labored for the Hebrew renaissance weren't, like Achad HaAm.

An early Hebrew dictionary written by Yehudah Grazowski-Gur (frum) dedicates 
the deictionary to four people for their work on behalf of the revival of 
Hebrew. Ben Yehudah was not one of them, curiously, even though it was Ben 
Yehudah's early campaign which inspired Gur to come on aliyah with the 
BILUim. The four were: The NeTZiV, for Gur learned in Volozhin, and the 
NeTZiV was a master of the Hebrew language. Then, Achad HaAm. The third was 
Herbert Samuel who was the British High Commisioner in Palestine when the 
British Mandate began. Samuel allowed for Hebrew to become one of the 
official languages of Palestine. Finally, Baron Edmon do Rothschild for his 
patronage of the Hebrew language having contrbuted to the work of Ben Yehudah 
and perhaps even Gur. 

Then came the Even Shoshan dictionary, and the Gurs receded to a back shelf.

Pemit me to express my surprise at seeing Ben Yehudah discussed in this 
forum. I thought I was one of the surviving few who kew his name. BTW there 
is an excellent, highly readable biographhy of Ben Yehudah entitled, Tongue 
of the Prophets and ,for anyone who is interested, an amazing incident which 
occured with Ben Yehadah and Rav Kook on the last day of BY's life which is 
told in Simcha Raz's recent work on Rav Kook.

chaim waserman 

On Sun, Jan 16, 2000 at 08:53:48PM +0200, Akiva Atwood wrote:
: I would disagree that "ad absurdum" has any place in an intellectual
: discussion.

: Debate is about trying to prove one's position, not about reaching a greater
: understanding of Emes.

Reducio ad absuraum is a useful tool in finding the emes. If an argument
can be used to prove the absurd, then it is clearly sheker.

For some reason, the process of using the same argument to prove the absurd
situation Y as was used to prove X seems to make people thing X is being
compared to Y, but it isn't.

For example, if someone could show that some pro-mod-O argument could be
used by C, then he amply showed (to anyone who agrees that C is flawed) that
mod-O shouldn't be using the argument either, that the line of reasoning
must contain a fallacy somewhere. He identified a point of emes. It's not
just "scoring points".

What you also find, though, is that some mod-O listener is going to assume
that mod-O was being called "as wrong as C". Even if that was not the intent.
Caution has to be taken not to offend.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 17-Jan-00: Levi, Beshalach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 100b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

<<   Hamefursamos einan tzrichos lerayoh.  >>

The problem is knowing what and where things are mefurash.  On that 
note...While there is no substitute for primary sources, the works for R' 
Ellinson (Hatznea Lechet, Ish U'Beito, and another one whose title I forget) 
have a nice breakdown of many of the issues regarding mixed whatever, 
tzniyus, etc. with a collection of sources from Talmud to Shut on each topic. 
 Well worth getting a copy of.

RYGB:
: At best it is divisive, at worst derisive,

Not my intent. I was looking for a nicer term than "ultra-O" that describes
those properties that "Yeshivish" and "Chassidish" have in common. That
something that makes it unsurprising to find a Belzer Chossid in Lakewood,
but surprising to find him in YU. Which is why someone's suggestion of
"Yeshivish" doesn't really foot the bill.

My apologies.

Someone asked about how I self-identify.

As you've seen from these past few days, I don't see these terms as referring
to sets of people, except maybe fuzzy sets of them. The frum community is
differentiated over numerous axis. Picture them (or at least three of them)
orthogonal to eachother, so that these issues become the dimensions of a
space. Each person's beliefs are some point in that space. He places himself
so far on the Religious Zionist axis, that far on the issue of TIDE, this
far on adherence to Toras Imecha, so deep of a belief in Da'as Torah, etc...

Mod-O is a point in the space about which many people are gathered. As
is Yeshivish, each of the various forms of Chassidus, the newer trends of
Chabakuk, Chardal, Delek...

Every person finds themselves at certain distances from these wells of
attraction. Some of us, myself included, find ourselves in places that aren't
clearly near any single well-named point in the O thought-space. Probably
most of us see ourselves that way, even if others don't.

Each person keeps a map in their head, how they map various areas around these
attractors to each label. No two maps are going to be identical (particulary
since people don't have a clear notion of where the attractors lie), and
the borders of each map are blurry.

In a room of mod-O people, I tend to be labeled the Yeshivish one. Because
from their point on the map, I'm in that direction. And in a room full of
Yeshivish people, I'm suddenly mod-O.

If we are to define a mod-O ideology in terms of a single axis, say, the
relationship to "mada" or "derech eretz", I'd qualify. And since this is
their primary issue, I tend to use the label. However, in terms of many other
issues, I'm closer to Yeshivish, which is why I seem to find it easier to
find a social niche in that community.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 17-Jan-00: Levi, Beshalach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 100b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

:> Rabbi.  The Letter "R" before a name can, therefore, mean either Reb
:> (Mr.) or Rabbi or Rav.>>

: 	Or,  on this list,  Rabbanit/Rebbitzen.

Insider joke alert: Of course, that's only if written "R'". R. Micha Berger"
seems like you're saying my brain is made of beryllium.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 17-Jan-00: Levi, Beshalach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 100b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Ironic, how to cover up critique of R' Berkovitz is OK, but not to cover up
critique of the Brisker Rav...

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: zvi brooks <zvib@mailcity.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 7:54 AM
Subject: Rav Berkovits and Rav Weinberg


> I asked Marc Shapiro and he said that he has a letter in which R. Weinberg
is very critical of R. Berkovits' view of halakhah, saying that it is like
the Conservative's approach. He also told me that a leading Modern Orthodox
figure has urged him not to publish the letter in its entirety (i. e., to
omit R. Berkovits' name).
>
>       Zvi
>
>
> LYCOShop is now open. On your mark, get set, SHOP!!!
> http://shop.lycos.com/
>

----- Original Message -----
From: <C1A1Brown@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: mixed dancing


> << The SA EH 21 says one is not allowed to walk behind a woman.
>
>  Lomadnu dancing me'kal va'chomer.
>   >>
>
> Do you mean to tell us that you are noheg halacha l'ma'aseh not walking
> behind a woman???  Lo tasuru if women are dressed properly???
>

Of course I try, don't you? If not, surely you do not watch their movements?

> See Kol Bo (66) who cites a cherem placed by MaHaRaM Rotenberg on mixed
> dancing.  (Guess the MaHaRaM also forgot lo tasuru?)
>

Nonsense. Of course he knew of the issur. He was trying to make it stick
with a cherem. Is that not obvious?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

On 17 Jan 00, at 11:03, C1A1Brown@aol.com wrote:

> << Many (if not most, if not all) people are unique, but that does
>  not necessarily preclude labeling them, as long as one defines the label. >>
> 
> What is the point of labelling people?  Why not simply discuss the Rav's 
> thought without seeking to reduce that complexity into a conveneint label?  
> Taxonomy is valuable only to the extent that it increases understanding; in 
> this case, it most certainly does not.  

I think that the discussion started with someone asking why the 
Rav was labelled MO, and that what this discussion has proved 
IMHO is that (1) the Rav defied labelling and (2) many of our labels 
are of limited utility.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Forwarded from ml-jewish.


From: Daniel P Faigin <faigin@pacificnet.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 07:27:33 -0800
Subject: Administrivia - Need Orthodox Rabbi Support

As maintainer for the soc.culture.jewish FAQ, I often get random
questions about Judaism mailed to me. As moderator of
mail.liberal-judaism, I have a lot of resources when those questions
pertain to the progressive strains of Judaism (Reform,
Conservative). However, I don't have a lot of resources when the
questions pertain to traditional thought and practice; I primarily
depend on one Orthodox Rabbi (who is also active on MLJ). I always feel
guilty about overloading him, and so would like to see if there are some
additional Orthodox rabbis who would like to help me field questions.

If you are willing, please drop me a note at
faigin@pacificnet.net. (Note: I'll be glad to take helper rabbis from
any movement, so if you are non-Orthodox, a rabbi, and want to help, let
me know also). Please indicate your affiliation in your message.


Thanks again,

Daniel
W/H: faigin@aero.org/faigin@pacificnet.net http://www.pacificnet.net/~faigin/
Mod., Mail.Liberal-Judaism (.../~faigin/MLJ)       Advisor, s.c.j.Parenting
Maintainer, S.C.J FAQ/RL   (.../~faigin/SCJ)       Daddy to Erin Shoshana
Maintainer, Calif. Highways List (.../~faigin/CA-HWYS)

In a message dated 1/17/00 12:14:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
C1A1Brown@aol.com writes:

> Do you mean to tell us that you are noheg halacha l'ma'aseh not walking 
>  behind a woman??? 

See Taharas Yisroel on above Halacha EH 21.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

would you care to share the story?


Chaimwass@aol.com wrote:

> <<Eliezer Ben Yehduda pretty much was a one-man movement to restore
>  hebrew as a spoken language >>
>
>  BTW there
> is an excellent, highly readable biographhy of Ben Yehudah entitled, Tongue
> of the Prophets and ,for anyone who is interested, an amazing incident which
> occured with Ben Yehadah and Rav Kook on the last day of BY's life which is
> told in Simcha Raz's recent work on Rav Kook.
>
> chaim waserman

<<I think you are mixing apples and cranberries. (I'm
tired of oranges)

There is a major difference between sitting at a mixed
table at a wedding and watching pritzus in the
entertainment media. In the first instance there are
no issurei ervah, tznius, or, in our day an age,
michsholim to hirhurei ervah.  Women at O weddings,
even MO weddings, by and large dress in a Tznius
fashion.>>

I must not have made my point clear.  All I meant to say is that the more
relaxed relationships between men and non-family member females, and the
inevitable influence of the general society's values regarding sexuality,
could be reason enough to limit opportunities for men a women to socialize
even in sitautions where "there are no issurei ervah, tznius, or, in our day
an age, michsholim to hirhurei ervah." (Although I'm not all sure why we, in
our day and age, have no michsholim to hirhurei ervah in such a situation.)
All the more so when there is social drinking and a general attitude of
merrymaking.  So just because something wasn't done in a not so long gone,
simpler, safer past doesn't meant that it's not appropriate now. 

Gad Frenkel

*********************


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