Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 293

Friday, January 14 2000

• Re: Kavana beTfilah
• Internet and Issur Histaklus Binashim - humor
• Conservatives
• Re: Internet-humor alert AND Administrivia
• Mixed seating at weddings -- my article
• Re: Kavana Betfila
• Re: Mixed seating at weddings
• Re: Mazel Tov
• RE: The Internet issur
• Internet ban
• Re[2]: Kavana beTfilah
• Re: Internet ban
• Re: Internet ban
• Re: Internet ban
• Conservatives and Rav Berkovits
• Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
• Lithuanian Yeshivos
• Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
• Motza-ei Shabbos
• Mazal Tov
• Re: Politics. Money. Power. Control.
• Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
• Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
• Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
• Re: Internet and Issur Histaklus Binashim

On Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 09:13:45AM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
: In terms of avoid a groove, an eitzo I say (I think from a Breslover
: Pamphlet) is to change the siddur from time to time.

Staying within the same nusach, or not? I found that occasionally davening
Ashkenaz using a Syrian siddur gets me thinking about the words and grammar,
and what each of the various minhagim end up meaning by the different choices
the make. I do end up making mistakes, though, and ending up davening slightly
nisht ahin und nisht aher. So I stopped using that method.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 14-Jan-00: Shishi, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 99a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

At least the Interent can help prevent issur chibuk v'nishuk! <smile>

Rich Wolpoe

 ----------
From: owner-avodah@aishdas.org
To: avodah-digest@aishdas.org
Subject: Avodah V4 #291
Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 8:37AM


Avodah            Friday, January 14 2000            Volume 04 : Number
291



I had written (to Ms. Janet Rosenbaum ):
>>Assuming I understand your suggestion, I find it theoretically possible
>>but fairly dubious when applied to reality.  First, in the current
>>generation, there are very few, if any, halakhists who have started in
>>the Orthodox camp, then joined the Conservatives.

And Chana Luntz replied:

>I assumed that Janet was thinking of the current head of JTS in Israel.
>I don't think she is the only one (if you are thinking of male
>halachists, then you are probably right).

If I understand correctly to whom you are referring, then I would say
that she is many things -- an intellectual, a pioneer in women's
education, a feminist, the holder of a doctorate in English literature,
but not a halakhist.  Indeed, to me, the placing of someone with so
little Torah scholarship at the head of an institution called the "Bet
Midrash" speaks volumes about the priority of imagery and public
relations over substance.

However, Janet herself explained that she was thinking of R. Eliezer
Berkovits.

>He was one of the ones I was thinking about;  I was told that he joined
>Masorti in the last years of his life.  (The person who told me was
>very disappointed in R Berkovits's move, and so I definitely trust he
>verified the issue.  I would love to hear otherwise, though.)

Could be.  But it seems to me that the move, assuming it took place, was
very much a last resort by a man who had tried for the previous 30 years
to make his arguments within Orthodoxy.  All that time, he plainly
resisted the lure of defection and, simulataneously, made an enormous
inteelectual contribution to the Orthodox community.  But he clearly
never tried to make his defection into a cause, like, for example, Louis
Jacobs did.

>Also R Zalman Schachter-Shlomi (sp?) --- he had strange ideas well
>after he left, but I think he originally split after making some
>too-flexible allowances involving mechitza for kiruv, no?

I do not know his background in great detail.  But based on where he has
ended up, it seems fair to ask if the mehitzah issue was simply the tip
of a very deep, very antinomian iceberg.

>On the younger side, I can count two young O rabbis and maybe half
>a dozen JTS students/rabbis who only differed on issues like women and
>were marginalized or didn't want to risk marginalization, which
>unfortunately seems like a rational fear.

Absolutely.  But I think these prove my point, rather than contradict
it.

>"Egalitarianism" to me means an axiomatic belief that women and men are
>the same and should a priori be treated the same in the eyes of halacha.

I agree.  And the problem of the young people you describe (and I know
some, perhaps even some of the same people) I think falls into the
pattern I was describing.  In an earlier post, you wrote of people who
are inclined to "make certain rulings" that would lead to
marginalization by the Orthodox community.  In the 40's and 50's, the
kind of rulings that distinguished the Conservative movement (ignoring
the driving to shul outrage) had to do with swordfish and cheese.

Today the issue isn't practical rulings, but the underlying axiomatic
belief that you describe.  I submit that such an axiomatic belief is in
tension with the halakhic sources.  And this creates a challenge: how
does the person in question resolve the tension.  Do you follow your
axiomatic belief or do you follow the sources?  I think that how you
answer that question will determine where you choose to affiliate.  But
that is not merely because you fear marginalization, but because you are
making a conscious decision to diverge from normative halakhic practice.
 Please understand, I am not questioning anyone's sincerity.  I am sure
they wrestle with these issues every day.  On the other hand, the
attempts that I have read -- by the leading Conservative scholars of the
day -- to justify various egalitarian practices are simply not
persuasive.  Worse, as I wrote before, they read like a legal brief, a
collection of arguments to support a particular claim, rather than a
sober survey of the sources.

[For clarification: I am not questioning the theoretical halakhic
legitimacy of a woman wearing a tallit.  R. Moshe approved it (though he
questioned the motives of the women who wanted to do it).  Tefillin is
dicier, for reasons that are well known, but certainly not unthinkable.
And if someone wants to rethink kevod tzibbur for keriat ha-Torah, I
will respectfully disagree, but not question their motives.  However,
there is, to my mind, absolutely no room to argue (a) that a woman can
count in a minyan (as R. Michah has noted), (b) that a woman -- with or
without a neder -- can be motzi a man for hiyyuvi from which she is
peturah, (c) serve as an ed kiddushin, and more.]

Kol tuv and Shabbat shalom,

Eli Clark

From me:
: Proper posting guidelines (format issues) in decending priority order: 
: 1- Try to only post in plain (ASCII) text....
: 2- Try to keep lines less than 80 characters long....
: 3- Try to keep the subject line meaningful....
: 4- Also, try to avoid metacharacters....

I need to insert the following, the numbering is to keep the descending order:
1-1/2- Quote as much as necessary, no more and no less. Only include the
       part(s) of the individual email your responding to that make the
       point you are commenting on. Unless you feel it would violate dinei
       shemiras halashon, include information about who sent it and possibly
       when. (I understand *accidentally* forgetting to edit down the whole
       digest to the relevent text, but it can't be a habit.)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 14-Jan-00: Shishi, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 99a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

In response to inquiries:

My article on mixed seating appeared in vol. 35 of the Journal of
Halacha and Contemporary Society.  A Hebrew version is slated to appear
in the upcoming edition of Tehumin.

But I'll be happy to e-mail a copy to anyone who requests it off-line.

Kol tuv and Shabbat shalom,

Eli Clark

And then Rav Chaim Brisker used to look over the Mussaf for Rosh Hashonoh before
the chag so that he would be able to daven without use of machsor.
kol tuv
steve

Kenneth Miller wrote:

> Gershon Dubin wrote <<< When I first started davening from a siddur,  I
> found it to be a big boost to kavana.  After a while.....I got into a
> groove,  as you say:  I could actually *read*  from the page without
> thinking!  I therefore went back to (sometimes) davening by heart with extra
> effort for kavana. Nir'eh. >>>
>
> I have this problem too. Here's an alternate suggestion: Use a different
> siddur. Especially one which has features you don't like, such as a
> different font or font size, or different page size, or different
> punctuation. It works wonders. Give it a try.
>
> Here's another idea, but this one only works when davening by yourself, or
> with an unusually slow minyan -- Daven the words by heart, but have your
> eyes on the *translation*. Suddenly you find out much of what you've been
> missing.
>
> Akiva Miller

In a message dated 1/14/00 9:50:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM writes:

> The answer is: it depends whom you ask.  If you read the teshuvah of the
>  Bah (Hadashot, YD, 55), you will see that he says that the se'udot on
>  Friday night and Shabbat morning included only bahurim and betulot and
>  therefore "ein bo hirhurei averah."
>  
If one want's to apply the Lvush that times changed, wouldn't one also 
conclude that with all the Pritzusdike advertisements that times have 
changed?  (Or can change only take place Lhatir Vloi Lesor?)

Is one to conclude that if Dovid Hamelech etc. would live today there would 
not be Issur of Yichud? or that one of the 3 things that Ein Odom NItzul 
Meihem has become abolished (and that the Yetzer Hara of Znus has become 
Bottul)?

Another issue that I am not aware if discussed is what happens during dancing 
is there Mechitza (men watching women dancing is prohibited).

Gut Shabbos, V'Kol Tuv,

Yitzchok Zirkind


Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 1/14/00 7:04:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

> I'm happy to inform the Chevra that my daughter Tova
>  got engaged  to Neal Kirschner of Chicago last night.
>  
May the Zivug be OLeh Yofeh.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

--- Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> Throwing more fuel on the fire --
> 
> 1) It appears that R' Eliyasiv (I was informed by a
> neighbor whose chavrusa
> asked him yesterday) did not see and did not sign
> the letter with his
> signature. I understand that a few other names (the
> more well known ones)
> likewise didn't sign the letter as written.

This is not the first time I've heard of something
like this. I seem to recall R. Pam's signature (along
with other name brand signatures) on the bottom of
some supposed Takana in NY (I forget what the Takana
was about)  When he was personally asked about it he
said that he never signed such a Takana. 

When things like this happen it eliminates all
beleivablity and therefore the effectiveness, of
legitimate Takanos. People will just say "How do we
know it's true?  Why should we believe it this time?

That's is what these imbeciles accomplish with forged
signatures.  I'm sure they mean it L'Shma.  They
probably assume that R.(Whoever) would certainly agree
with this takana and they just sign the names of every
Gadol and Rav they can think of to give more
widespread acceptance.

All they really accomplish in the end is to show how
stupid and ignorant they are.  I guess the Israeli
Yated falls into that category.

HM
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>>>While this might not bother non-Haredim, is it so hard to understand the Haredi perspective that this is 
assur gamur or easily leads to an issur gamur, even without going to a site specifically for filth? <<<

If your reasoning be true, then there should be no difference between using the 'net for work, research, or recreation - I will see the same AOL login screen (to use your example) no matter where and why I connect, yet apparently there has been mention of some of these type distinctions.  I am puzzeled though - I work in NYC, and I don't think anyone would dispute that the dress of most people does not conform to the standards of tzniyus, chareidi or otherwise.  Since you assur the internet based on the chashash of seeing a davar ervah, why not assur riding the train, working in a store or business open to the public, or even walking down most city streets?  

-Chaim B.

Here is another technique that occasionally works for me.

Concentrate on the mintuae of the dikduk. EG pretend the shmoneh esrai is like 
shma and enuncite each word with extra care to the mil'el milera nad the nekudos
etc.

It doesn't help me much with focus upon peirush hamilos; but it does keep me 
from wandering off into left field.

Rich Wolpoe

In a message dated 1/14/00 12:08:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
C1A1Brown@aol.com writes:

> Since you assur the internet based on the chashash of seeing a davar ervah, 
> why not assur riding the train, working in a store or business open to the 
> public, or even walking down most city streets?  

Good point! It is well known that many communities encourage against riding 
by train, etc., while Lhalacha I highly doubt that there is a Issur a Takkana 
is rooted in Tzorach Hasha'a, I would assume that Mchanchim can say how much 
damage uncontrolled access to the Internet has brought.

Gut Shabbos, V'kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

I noticed something on the divergence of the actual text of the takkanah (as
in the ads) vs. the Yated's version.

It would appear that, at least for the US's chareidim, it is a case of "ein
ha'am yachol la'amod bo".

It also shows that the relationship between charedim and da'as Torah is not
one of handing over all bechirah, or even all decisions about the big issues,
for someone else to decide for you. That image, which I've seen between
the cracks in a number of emails here from non-chareidim, is a caricature
of the ideal, and even further from the reality.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 14-Jan-00: Shishi, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 99a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

In a message dated 1/14/00 12:19:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

> It would appear that, at least for the US's chareidim, it is a case of "ein
>  ha'am yachol la'amod bo".
>  

While in general this may be true, however children should be sheltered from 
the potential Sakana, the best way by NO access to the web (Umah Tov to even 
e-mail), but at the least supervised access.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

1) A poster suggested that Rav Eliezer Berkovits, zt"l, joined the Masorti
movement at the end of his life.  This is pure lashon hara.  He had a far
more lenient shita on interactions with them, and may have even have 
spoken at one of their functions, but he never joined.  Because of the
recent rightward trend, there has been an attempt to read  this talmid
muvhak of the Seride Esh out of the fold.  This is not surprising, as some
posters have suggested that the Seride Esh himself, as he actually was
revealed in his letters, would not be welcome today.

Meir Shinnar

There have been a few attempts to list 3 or 4 beliefs which define Modern 
Orthodoxy.  As someone who has been worried about drifting towards MO lately I'd
like to thank you for assuring me that I'm not.  But that leads to another 
problem, as RG Dubin pointed out:

>>Some of us have described spectra/continua of Orthodox belief/practice.
Would one of them please inform me where exactly a semiHaredi person
stands?>>


What happens to those of us who believe in some but not all of the MO "creeds"? 
Belief in one removes us from the Chareidi world but lack of acceptance of all 
bars access to the MO world.

I guess that makes us CENTRISTS!

	Rabbi Bechhofer referred recently to "the three major Lithuanian
yeshivos:  Chevron, Mir, Ponivitch."  Is not Har Etzion a major Lithuanian
yeshiva?  And how about Rabbi Bechhofer's own Sha'alvim (although unlike Har
Etzion, Sha'alvim has fewer talmidim than any of the three that Rabbi
Bechhofer listed)?  And how about Kerem B'Yavneh, Mercaz HaRav, and many
other hesder and/or Bnai Akiva yeshivos that are also Lithuanian yeshivos?
And just imagine the impact if the Roshei Yeshiva of "all" the major
Lithuanian yesivos -- or even just the Roshei Yeshiva of Chevron, Har
Etzion, Mir and Ponivitch -- signed a proclamation -- or even just sat down
together!

Jeff Zuckerman


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On Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 01:04:48PM -0500, gil.student@citicorp.com wrote:
: There have been a few attempts to list 3 or 4 beliefs which define Modern 
: Orthodoxy.

I recently offered in another venue an attitude which is what I meant when
I talked about placing the line at TIDE:

A chareidi approaches a new idea, venue, or invention with the question "What
challenges does this pose?" Mod-O's first question is "What opportunities?"
This is why mod-O is more likely to embrace the new, which is why we call it
"mod".

I assume a chareidi will correct me. But that's my first approximation.

: What happens to those of us who believe in some but not all of the MO
: "creeds"? Belief in one removes us from the Chareidi world but lack of
: acceptance of all bars access to the MO world.

Because the truth is that "Mod-O" and "Chareidi" are terms for sociological
groups, not halachic categories. The groups locii center about particular
belief systems. Different people reside at different distances from each
locus (and in different directions). The map around the locus that defines
the set of members of a group is both subjective and fuzzy.

In short, why do you care?

Which is why in Israel, where the education system makes you care, so many
people disagree with how they are pigeon-holed. Also, your choice means that
you are pushing your kid quite far toward one locus or another in relation
to yourself.

: I guess that makes us CENTRISTS!

"Centrist" is a meaningless term, since everyone sees themselves in the middle,
right between the "apikursim" and the "fanatics". To put it another way, any
point can be taken as the middle of a line that is infinite in both directions.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 14-Jan-00: Shishi, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 99a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:47:22 -0500
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Subject: Motzoei Shabbos

I seem to remember the term Motzoei Shabbos being used (rarely) for the
entire day of Sunday rather than the conventional use.  Does anyone know
of such usage?

Gershon

There was discussion of the propriety of saying the words "be-motza-ei
menucha" at the first Elul slichos (for Ashkenazim) when recited Sunday
morning.  GD's question implies a defense of retaining the words even the
morning after, i.e. Sunday morning.  Perhaps this is what he remembers.

NW

Mazal Tov to list-member and major contributor (at least in number of
postings) Hershel Maryles on the engagement of his youngest daughter. We
wish him mazal and hope he will have much jiddishe nachas.
steve and ellie

Carl Sherer wrote <<< those who are opposed to the registry of yichus should
keep in mind that a separation of religion from the State of Israel would
likely make the registry a certainty, at least here. >>>

Whoa! I am totally lost here. I thought the main reason for the registry was
the fact that the State Of Israel registers incorrect religions on their
Teudat Zehut (Identity Card), which are then incorrectly accepted as
accurate. If the government would stop putting this official stamp on such
things, then the situation in Israel would become much like elsewhere. That
is, questions of Jewishness would be resolved by personal testimony, family
history, etc, on a case-by-case basis.

In other words, it seems to me that a separation of religion and govt in
Israel would make the registry *less* important than it is now. What did I
miss?

Akiva Miller

In a message dated 1/14/00 1:06:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
gil.student@citicorp.com writes:

<< 
 
 What happens to those of us who believe in some but not all of the MO 
"creeds"? 
 Belief in one removes us from the Chareidi world but lack of acceptance of 
all 
 bars access to the MO world.
 
 I guess that makes us CENTRISTS!
  >>
which is why I don't like the term centrist - it seems to try to define us 
only in contradistinction to some other imagined right, left, up or down.

Shabbat Shalom,
Joel RIch

In a message dated 1/14/00 1:24:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< 
 "Centrist" is a meaningless term, since everyone sees themselves in the 
middle,
 right between the "apikursim" and the "fanatics". To put it another way, any
 point can be taken as the middle of a line that is infinite in both 
directions.
 
 -mi
  >>
or it may be the center of the circle around which all other "points" revolve.

Shabbat shalom,
Joel Rich

In a message dated 1/14/00 1:55:21 PM US Central Standard Time, 
Joelirich@aol.com writes:

<< To put it another way, any
  point can be taken as the middle of a line that is infinite in both 
 directions.
  
  -mi
   >>
 or it may be the center of the circle around which all other "points" 
revolve.
  >>

Or it might be that no point can be considered the middle of a line that is 
infinite in both directions. No middle, no center.

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; / Mere anarchy is loosed upon the 
world, / The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere / The ceremony of 
innocence is drowned; / The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are 
full of passionate intensity."

David Finch

--- Tobrr111@aol.com wrote:
 I have AOL. Almost every other day on the
> WELCOME screen, where the 
> mailbox is, without going to an improper site, there
> is a picture of an 
> immodestly dressed women. Yesterday it was "get fit
> for the new millennium" 
> with a picture of a women exercising. Other times it
> is an actress. Anyone 
> who has AOL (or MSN) knows this to be true.
 
 Maybe you should switch to Netscape.  Their Homepage
is totally innocuos.

I question your definition of Histaclus B'Nashim. I'm
not sure the degraded electronic images you describe
would qualify.  But that's another matter.

No one questions going L'fnim Meshuras HaDin when it
comes to Halacha and this of course includes avoidance
of "sights" which can stimulate Hirhurei Aveira.  This
is in essence what Charedim do and it is just fine for
them. If they want to "throw out the baby with the
bathwater" they have every right to do so.  They can
just lock trhemselves up in the closet for that matter
and stare at the clothes on the Hangers.  Of course
that might give some people Hirhurim, too. Perhaps we
should just wear blindfolds during our waking hours
and buy seeing eye dogs if we need to leave the house!


The bottom line is anyone is entitled to be machmir
for him/herself.  Just don't make any Takanos for
those who do not agree with this Chumra and want to
enjoy the positive side of the Net.

HM
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