Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 288

Thursday, January 13 2000

• Re: Internet-humor alert AND Administrivia
• Re: Haredim and Internet
• Re: Was re: Haredim and Internet; Now: Freedom of Choice
• Re: Mixed Seating
• Do the Masses Need Sanitized Gdolim
• Internet-humor alert
• Re: Was re: Haredim and Internet; Now: Freedom of Choice
• Re: Do the Masses Need Sanitized Gdolim
• annoyance
• The Internet issur
• RE: Conservative/Reform/Orthodox/Whatever - Who cares?
• RE: Do the Masses Need Sanitized Gdolim
• Re: Mitzva Tanz
• RE: Conservative/Reform/Orthodox/Whatever - Who cares?
• >From Arutz-7
• RE: Conservative/Reform/Orthodox/Whatever - Who cares?
• re: Conservative/Reform/Orthodox/Whatever - Who cares?
• Re: Women and Cohanim
• re: Kavana Betfila
• Re: From Arutz-7
• Re: The Internet issur
• [none]

On Thu, Jan 13, 2000 at 10:20:58AM -0500, Yzkd@aol.com wrote:
: I cought a To'os Hadfus :-) should read "vesitneinee"

Thanks for the correction. I might point out it Moshe Luchins already it
posted to the list (in MIME), and I embedded the GIF into the archive by
hand. See <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n174.html#06>.

Speaking of mime, a bit of administrivia:

Proper posting guidelines (format issues) in decending priority order:
1- Try to only post in plain (ASCII) text. MIME and HTML look horrible
   when digested. The digest appends emails together. MajorDomo doesn't
   know how to combine various formats, so everything as treated as
   though it were plain text, whether it is or not.

2- Try to keep lines less than 80 characters long. Not all mail readers
   do word-wrapping of long lines. The HTML version of the archives does
   not. (But should. Another item for my "to do" list.)

3- Try to keep the subject line meaningful. This will help future readers
   find your message in the archive. It will also help those who only skim
   their email (Avodah's volume is HUGE!) to follow a conversation.

   By "meaningful" I mean either:
   a- The same as the email you're replying to; or, if the topic drifted
   b- Something clearly about the new topic.

   "Re:" and whatnot aren't an issue. But "Re: Avodah vol 4 # 167" isn't
   very informative.

4- Also, try to avoid metacharacters; those nice symbols like fancy open
   and close quotes, m-dashes and the like, which aren't part of ASCII.
   While they probably won't make your email unreadable, they are irritating
   to people whose emailers will map them to different symbols than those
   intended.

If you need technical assistance in order to configure your emailer to fit
these guidelines, please let me know. A number of people have been violating
the first rule lately. I also know some of you can't avoid violating the
second -- there's one email program that's TOO helpful.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 13-Jan-00: Chamishi, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 98b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Chaim Turkel wrote:



> Hi,

Hi.



>   Just a thought. Since one of the basic beliefs in judiasm is the fredom of
> choice, you would think that every person should have the right (and the
> obligation) to choose for himself right from wrong. There is no more harm in
> the internet then there is every where else. What ever you can find on the
> internet you can find in the city. There for to ban the internet is a act
> that goes agains the idea of fredom of choice (since there are very good
> things on the internet - like this list).



I think the "harm" of the internet being referred to is the ease of
finding all the things that used to take effort to go out and find.

Yes, it can all be found in any decent-sized city, but one has to go out
looking, and chance being seen, etc. Whereas with the 'net, it comes right
to you, in the privacy of your basement, or office, or wherever.


Shiviti HaShem Lenegdi Tamid.


---sam

Huh?

What about kofin by korbonos?

Same kofin oso ad she'yomar rotzeh ani, and no disentangling.

???

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Was re: Haredim and Internet; Now: Freedom of Choice


> On Thu, Jan 13, 2000 at 12:37:53AM -0600, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M.
Bechhofer wrote:
> : Do we really believe in freedom of choice?
> : What about "kofin oso ad she'yomar rotzeh ani."
>
> Poor example, as we only do this when he's mechuyav to divorce his wife,
> and won't. We could say that the kefiyah is to disentangle her, and is no
> more an issue of bechirah than of trying to procure her justice.
>

On Wed, Jan 12, 2000 at 08:40:33PM -0500, TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:
> << people who do have mixed seating be disrespected in
>  this way? >>
>  Arrgghh....Disrespect is not a verb.
 
he from chicago.  don't be dissing him.

janet
sorry, i went to a public high school just outside chicago.

There could be another dynamic going on.  

Someone I know told me why he will always do what a
gdol tells him to do.  Because by following the ruling
of this posek, it removes any responsibility from him
if something goes wrong.  Not kidding, that is what he
told me. 

I find this reply to be interesting and revealing not
because it may or may not say something about this
guy's personality.  Rather it shows just how much we
are influenced by today's cultural norms.  In american
society people do what they can to escape assuming
responsibity for their actions (I have a substance
abuse problem, I'm seeing someone, I had a horrible
childhood, etc).  These claims are made not as a way
to understand someone's actions but to avoid the
consequences of said actions.

That is what this guy wants to do.  Granted I have not
shown any connection between the two.  However my gut
feeling is that we are influenced more than we would
like to admit.

Reply separator
_______________________________________________________
Of greater concern to me is that the depiction of
Gdolim as infallible has come to dominate the fruhm
"thought market" to such an extent that I think we are
creating a generation where more and 
more people do have the need to believe Gdolim are
infallible. I fear that they may be setting themselves
up for a fall when they discover that it isn't always so.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:20:58 EST
> From: Yzkd@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Internet-humor alert
		 
<<vesitnenu lechen ulerachamim be'einei kol masach  (screen), I cought a
To'os Hadfus :-) should read "vesitneinee">>

	It was more likely a ta'us hadefum (think about that a second.)

Gershon

On Thu, Jan 13, 2000 at 10:03:04AM -0600, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer wrote:
: What about kofin by korbonos?

Didn't think of it. The other came to mind, as we were just discussing
agunos recently.

Either way, you'll notice I questioned only this particular example, not
your other argument or your conclusion.

My point was that kefiyah of one person on behalf of helping another is no
more a bechirah chafshi issue than killing someone who is ba bamachteres.
Perhaps we can extend this to bein adam laMakom as well, in which case we've
gotten to the point I made in the previous email, but via a different route.

The question of bechirah is an epistomological one, not an ethical directive.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 13-Jan-00: Chamishi, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 98b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

On Thu, Jan 13, 2000 at 04:26:40PM +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
> I think the short answer is yesh v'yesh. As in every other area, 
> there are those who are more sophisticated, and there are those 
> who are less sophisticated. I think there are people out there in the 
> Charedi world who NEED to feel that all Gdolim are infallible, while 
> there are others who can accept Gdolim having faults without it 
> leading to sfeykos in emuna. 

is it permissible to accomodate this type of attitude?  
this seems dangerously close to, for instance, catholicism.  

(and i think this is very different from the gemaras about following
rabbis around because everything they do is torah because these are very
much an indication of their humanity.)

janet

> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:35:43 -0600
> From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" 
> <>
> Subject: Annoyance
> 
> This report from the e-mail Yated drives me (specifically) crazy. You
would think, from reading it, that there are no female principals in
schools that are under the TuM umbrella.>>

	I am not sure on what basis you conclude that.  OTOH,  my wife is not a
principal (any more).

Gershon

http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,33583,00.html

Fahrenheit 451, Jerusalem Style
A council of ultra-Orthodox rabbis decides to ban the Internet, and barely a 
whimper is heard -- except from those who bemoan the loss of its educational 
worth. Tania Hershman reports from Jerusalem. ....

Even Wired is junping on this.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

--- Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
>
> 
> The problem is that a majority (possibly a large
> majority) of the
> conversions done by the Rabbanut are either
> conversions for marriage (with
> no real intention of Kabalat Ohl Malchut Shamayim),
> conversions for work
> (foreign workers who want to remain here), or
> conversions for convenience
> (Russian Olim -- lets just dunk them in the mikvah
> and the problems go
> away).
> 
> Even you will admit that none of these reasons are
> valid for conversion --
> thus their non-acceptance.

The shocking description of Rabbanut conversions
sounds exactly like what the C and R want. If the C an
R agree with the Rabanut, why haven't they made peace
with eachother?  Why all the fuss about the Ne'eman
commision reccomendation?  It seems that it's
reccomendations would even rectify the abuses by the
Rabbanut.  

Am I so Niave? Is the Rabbanut so corrupt?  I don't
believe it. There has to be more to the story.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

> this seems dangerously close to, for instance, catholicism.  
> 

How so?

Akiva


A reality check a day keeps 
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274  

--- Danny Schoemann <dannys@dorotree.com> wrote:
> 
> Actually, the few Mitzva Tanzen I've seen can barely
> be described as
> "dancing".
> 
> The Chasan and Kallah hold hand (barely) and take a
> few steps / suffles. The
> other "dancers" (usually  - if not always  - close
> family) will hold the
> other end of a gartel and take a few steps while the
> kalla stands there
> mortified.
> 
> Why wife tells me that the Kalla dreads this part of
> the evening.
> 
> All this to the backdrop of Mussar sayings said in a
> "levaya" kind of tune,
> and after makiing sure the bochrim have left.
> 
> Nothing really un-tznius about it.
> 
> Just for the record...

My original point was that public hand holding by
Chasidim is anathema to them yet they most definately
do hold hands publicly this one time.

However, I've been to many a Mitzva Tanz and your
description is quite accurate. I once heard in the
name of some Litvishe Rosh Hayeshiva the comment: "Es
iz nit kien Mitzvah und es iz nit kein tanz"

But to Chasidim who have this minhag it is vested with
some sort of holiness. As a matter of fact, studying
the faces of almost all the participant realtives,
including the faces of the fathers and Chasan and
Kallah themselves, you will see sort of a resignation
to the inevitablity of this event. Most of the
observers are either relatives, very close friends or
curiosity seekers.  Very few people want to stay at a
wedding till 3:00AM.  But I have watched these faces
and they amost all of them seem to be saying "Is it
over yet?" It is as if they have to fulfil an
obligation.  Everybody is tired and bored.  The
Badchan drones on and on, in Yiddish, about the
virtues of each participant, trying often in vain to
be humorous, for 10 or more minutes per person before
he dances with the gartel attached Kallah.  The kallah
stands like a stick and looks away. The only moment of
Joy comes at the very end when the father dances with
his daughter for about 15 seconds.  For the Chosans
part, the look on his face when he dances with the
kallah is: "Finally... it's over and we can end the
wedding." So... 15 seconds of pleasure experienced by
the father preceded by sometimes 2 or more  hours of 
a droning Badchan and sheer boredom on the faces of
all the relatives and onlookers. 

Yet when you talk to Chasidim, they seem to say they
love it.  

One of the many things about our people that I don't
understand.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

> Am I so Niave? Is the Rabbanut so corrupt?  I don't
> believe it. There has to be more to the story.

It's not that the Rabbanut is corrupt -- the problem is how well the
Rabbanim check out (or don't check out) the potential convert and their
reasons for converting, their commitment to keeping Halacha after the
conversion course, etc.


Akiva




A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

 A YEAR IN JAIL FOR AGUNAH-HUSBANDS
The Knesset voted last night in favor of a preliminary reading of an
Agunah
(literally, a "chained woman") law.  The bill, proposed by Meretz MK Anat
Maor, states that a man who leaves his wife and refuses to grant her a
proper Jewish divorce - thus preventing her from re-marrying - will be
sentenced to a year in prison. 

Gershon

On 13 Jan 00, at 8:39, Harry Maryles wrote:

> --- Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > The problem is that a majority (possibly a large
> > majority) of the
> > conversions done by the Rabbanut are either
> > conversions for marriage (with
> > no real intention of Kabalat Ohl Malchut Shamayim),
> > conversions for work
> > (foreign workers who want to remain here), or
> > conversions for convenience
> > (Russian Olim -- lets just dunk them in the mikvah
> > and the problems go
> > away).
> > 
> > Even you will admit that none of these reasons are
> > valid for conversion --
> > thus their non-acceptance.
> 
> The shocking description of Rabbanut conversions
> sounds exactly like what the C and R want. If the C an
> R agree with the Rabanut, why haven't they made peace
> with eachother?  

Politics. Money. Power. Control.

Why all the fuss about the Ne'eman
> commision reccomendation?  

Politics. Money. Power. Control.

It seems that it's
> reccomendations would even rectify the abuses by the
> Rabbanut.  

Not quite. They just lengthen the process. 

And this is just one issue of many between the Rabbanut and C 
and R. There are millions of shekels in budgets to be fought over. 
The Rabbanut controls a lot of patronage (remember that it is a 
government body here) and C and R would love to get some of that 
patronage. Not to mention things like youth group budgets (I don't 
recall if those are now given out through the education ministry or 
the religious affairs ministry, but in either event they are 
substantial), fees for kashrus certification, fees for burials (now 
regulated), fees for marriages, for divorces and for any proceedings 
in the Rabbinical Courts, etc.

> Am I so Niave? 

Nah, you're just a nice guy who doesn't live here....

Is the Rabbanut so corrupt?  I don't
> believe it. There has to be more to the story.

Like any other government bureaucracy, it has good people and 
bad people and it has a natural preservation instinct.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

R' Harry Maryles wrote <<< I always thought that all Orthodox factions were
on the same page and that the Ikkar is to eliminate the Giur She Lo
Kehalacah of the R and C. >>>

As R' Akiva Atwood already pointed out, there seem to be different standards
of Kabalas Hamitzvos when converting a non-Jew for purposes of marriage, or
work permits, or whatever.

Remember when the Neeman Commission suggested that the reform and
conservative could the "chinuch" while the orthodox would do the dunking?
What was their hava amina that there's any real Kabalas Hamitzvos there?

Clearly, we're NOT "all on the same page".

Akiva Miller

tobrr111: <<< I just hope that my daughters are zocheh to be taught to
appreciate the beauty of their given role in Judaism by someone who explains
it to them as eloquently as Mrs. Atwood did in her recent post. >>>

As do I !!! Amen v'Amen !!!

Akiva Miller

Gershon Dubin wrote <<< When I first started davening from a siddur,  I
found it to be a big boost to kavana.  After a while.....I got into a
groove,  as you say:  I could actually *read*  from the page without
thinking!  I therefore went back to (sometimes) davening by heart with extra
effort for kavana. Nir'eh. >>>

I have this problem too. Here's an alternate suggestion: Use a different
siddur. Especially one which has features you don't like, such as a
different font or font size, or different page size, or different
punctuation. It works wonders. Give it a try.

Here's another idea, but this one only works when davening by yourself, or
with an unusually slow minyan -- Daven the words by heart, but have your
eyes on the *translation*. Suddenly you find out much of what you've been
missing.

Akiva Miller

On 13 Jan 00, at 12:34, Gershon Dubin wrote:

>  A YEAR IN JAIL FOR AGUNAH-HUSBANDS
> The Knesset voted last night in favor of a preliminary reading of an
> Agunah
> (literally, a "chained woman") law.  The bill, proposed by Meretz MK Anat
> Maor, states that a man who leaves his wife and refuses to grant her a
> proper Jewish divorce - thus preventing her from re-marrying - will be
> sentenced to a year in prison. 

This strikes me as much ado about nothing. The Batei Din here 
can and have already thrown men into jail for refusing to give their 
wives gittin. And in many (maybe even most) cases it has not 
helped. Certainly not a sentence as short as a year. That's not 
going to move most vindictive husbands (and that's usually the real 
issue IMHO) to give their wives a get. Not impressed.

You want to talk about stopping them from having a bank account 
or a credit card and from getting any kind of government benefits, 
maybe we would have something a bit more serious to talk about.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

--- aviva fee <aviva613@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,33583,00.html
> 
> Fahrenheit 451, Jerusalem Style
> A council of ultra-Orthodox rabbis decides to ban
> the Internet, and barely a 
> whimper is heard -- except from those who bemoan the
> loss of its educational 
> worth. Tania Hershman reports from Jerusalem. ....
> 
> Even Wired is junping on this.

I hate defending the Yated but... after reading  the
more complete version of the Yated on the subject
(forwarded by Allen Baruch), I must admit that the so
called "ban" is not a ban at all but more about a call
for awareness as to what is both good and bad about
the internet.  I don't recall seeing the word ban or
anything like it in the entire article. It was just a
"heads up" call to parents to watch out because the
"bad" is VERY BAD!.  Indeed, I was pleasantly
surprized to see refferences to much of the good side
of the internet that many of us are familier with. The
practical suggestions given at the end of the article
seemed reasoned and good advice to any parent, Frum or
not, as to how to deal with the negative side of the
internet.

Have I misread the article?

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

My son once commented to me that the reason so many
Yeshiva Bachurim in Israel smoke Cigarettes is that
all other forms of pleasure have been taken away from
them and that is the only vice they have left.  (!)

If this theory is correct, one would expect to see an
equal amount of smoking among charedi women.  

Yet, it is my understanding that smoking among
orthodox women, for whatever reason, is almost
nonexistent (unless I have my facts wrong).  

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]