Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 287

Thursday, January 13 2000

• Do the Masses Need Sanitized Gdolim
• Re: Internet-humor alert
• [none]
• [none]
• Motzoei Shabbos
• Re: Mixed Seating
• Re: Was re: Haredim and Internet; Now: Freedom of Choice
• mixed seating/socializing
• Re: Internet-humor alert
• Re: techelet
• Re: Was re: Haredim and Internet; Now: Freedom of Choice
• Re: Avodah V4 #286

I hope you don't mind my choice of a topic line :-) 

On 12 Jan 00, at 15:07, zvi  brooks wrote:

> My question is, is this really true? That is, Are the haredi masses so
> unsophisticated that real history, and a real biography of a gadol (such as
> written by Shapiro, or even R. Epstein's Mekor Baruch) would have negative
> effects on their emunah? Is it really true, as this rabbi suggests that the
> haredi masses don't see their gedolim as real people. I know this is how
> their newspapers and Artscroll type books portray things, but every haredi
> I have ever met always claims that he knows the truth -- and after all,
> machlokes among gedolim is a part of this world --, but that the masses
> (often identified with the women) need to be fed these things. They all
> claim to know that Yated is full of propaganda and unrealistic portrayals
> of gedolim. Since every yeshiva type I have met claims to be part of those
> in the know, who are the unlettered and unwashed masses that supposedly have
> to be kept in the dark about the world. Do they really exist?

I think the short answer is yesh v'yesh. As in every other area, 
there are those who are more sophisticated, and there are those 
who are less sophisticated. I think there are people out there in the 
Charedi world who NEED to feel that all Gdolim are infallible, while 
there are others who can accept Gdolim having faults without it 
leading to sfeykos in emuna. 

Of greater concern to me is that the depiction of Gdolim as 
infallible has come to dominate the fruhm "thought market" to such 
an extent that I think we are creating a generation where more and 
more people do have the need to believe Gdolim are infallible. I fear 
that they may be setting themselves up for a fall when they 
discover that it isn't always so.

I'm not arguing that one shouldn't be melamed zchus when things 
appear ambiguous. Obviously one should. But I think that you need 
to give credit to people for overcoming their faults, and it is in this 
area where we can all truly learn from Gdolim's personalities. For 
example, I have seen in several places discussions of one 
contemporary Gadol's struggle (and success) at overcoming his 
temper. Seeing that description is more likely to change my life 
and behavior than reading unrealistic descriptions about how a 
Gadol NEVER spoke a word of sicha b'teila in the Beis Medrash or 
never raised his voice to anyone. Seeing people as superhuman 
makes attempts at emulating them much more far-fetched, and in 
the case of Gdolim giving up on emulating them without even trying 
would be a shame.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 13 Jan 00, at 9:19, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> I came across the following "tfilas haderech" for web surfers.  Since it
> is my belief that most of us are more familiar with tfilas haderech than
> with modern Hebrew,  I will transliterate,  and translate the unusual
> terms.   My transliteration is not intended to follow any rules,  so
> don't jump on me for it:
> 
> Yehi ratzon milefanecha shetechabrenu (connect) beshalom vesaglishenu
> (surf) beshalom vesagienu la'asar (site) cheftzenu beshalom usenatkenu
> (disconnect) beshalom ubezol,  vesatzilenu mikaf kol virus unefila
> (crash) baderech,  umikol minei asorei zevel, pritzus va'avodah zara
> hamsiragshim lavo ba'olam havirtuali,  vesishlach beracha bechol ma'aseh
> achborenu (mouse) vesitnenu lechen ulerachamim be'einei kol masach
> (screen),  vesishma kol arnakenu, ki shome'ah tefila vesachanun ata
> umeginenu mibitul zman.

It's actually been going around as .jpeg or .gif file (I forget which). I 
have it at home if anyone wants it.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:07:10 -0800
From: "zvi  brooks" <zvib@mailcity.com>
Subject: (No Subject)

<<I then gave the book to an older (semi-Haredi) rabbi>>

	Some of us have described spectra/continua of Orthodox belief/practice.
Would one of them please inform me where exactly a semiHaredi person
stands?

Gershon

Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:22:52 +0200
From: "Chaim Turkel" <cyturel@hotmail.com>
Subject: Haredim and Internet

<<Just a thought. Since one of the basic beliefs in judiasm is the fredom
of
choice>>

	Stop right there.  Where is that mentioned as a basic belief in Judaism?
 That HKB"H gives us bechira does not imply that we need to retain all
options for all matters.  Please explain.

Gershon

I seem to remember the term Motzoei Shabbos being used (rarely) for the
entire day of Sunday rather than the conventional use.  Does anyone know
of such usage?

Gershon

In a message dated 1/13/00 7:08:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< > 
 > << people who do have mixed seating be disrespected
 > in
 >  this way? >>
 >  Arrgghh....Disrespect is not a verb.
 > 
 > Sorry, I teach High School.
 > 
 > Jordan
 
 I ain't so sure bout dat! :)
 
 HM (victim of cultural language-acide)
 _______________ >>



I know, I know. I heard from a few people about this. I will have to check 
with my father, who has gone "into the Breach" in his defense of the 
language. Just because 2nd editions of dictionaries and William Safire say we 
have to accept things does not mean I am going to accept them. 

Jordan  

On Thu, Jan 13, 2000 at 12:37:53AM -0600, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer wrote:
: Do we really believe in freedom of choice?
: What about "kofin oso ad she'yomar rotzeh ani."

Poor example, as we only do this when he's mechuyav to divorce his wife,
and won't. We could say that the kefiyah is to disentangle her, and is no
more an issue of bechirah than of trying to procure her justice.

: Or "afrushei mei'issura?"

This is more of an issue. Gezeiros are set up to avoid being in a situation
where a mitzvah would be violated. While I think you need Sanhedrin to
create an actual gezeirah, it does argue that "afrushei mei'issura" is a
valid motive for setting communal standards, and not just a guideline for
personal behavior.

: We believe in free will, not free choice, no?

Bechirah chafshi does literally mean free choice. But I think it refers to
the nature of decision making, not the idea context for decisions. B"C was
never challenged by the observation that the situation we find ourselves
in constrains our choices. If you think about it, HKBH does influence our
choices by controlling which choices we have. And if that's not a challenge
to bechirah, neither should our own tailoring of which choices we face.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 13-Jan-00: Chamishi, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 98b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

RMT wrote (v4#283):
"I asked a respected Rav about the Minhagim of couples eating
together, etc, which seem to be firmly entrenched and equally firmly
against this Siman. I was Nidhcheh beKash on three separate 
occasions, and took that to mean there was no real answer."

When we asked R' SY Weinberg zt'l about this in chaburah once,
he said its "a davar pashut that the men talk with the men and the 
women with the women".  Another quote on the topic was "your 
wife's friends are not your friends".

Kol Tuv
Sender Baruch

In a message dated 1/13/00 9:19:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

>  vesitnenu lechen ulerachamim be'einei kol masach
>  (screen), 
I cought a To'os Hadfus :-) should read "vesitneinee"

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

On Thu, Jan 13, 2000 at 04:00:29PM +0200, Mrs. Gila Atwood wrote:
: You'd have to ask the people who use the cuttlefish dye whether they hold
: that they believe they're using authentic 'chilazon'  (likely error) or
: whether the colour is the ikkar....

It is clearly the former, as otherwise they would do away with the cuttlefish
(sepia) and use a cheaper source of potassium. (Sorry again for thinking it
was nitrogen. Didn't mean to mislead you.) In fact, the comparison between
cuttlefish vs other sources and pure grain vinegar vs pure vinegar from
another source WRT chameitz is made by R' Shelomo Englander in his letter
to "Koveitz Or Yisrael" (vol 11) in reply to the article I cited yesterday
by R' MA Katz. Pure vinegar, which contains no taint whatsoever of its
origins, made from grain is prohibited on Pesach, but the exact same chemical
when made from anything else isn't. So halachah does care about the sources
of things.

(Despite the fact that by kashrus there is such a line beyond which the
tarfus of the source doesn't affect the tarfus of the chemical. The famous
"gelatin" machlokes is (was?) about where the line is, not whether it exists.)

What R' Englander doesn't address is why the gemara would warn about kaleh
ilan (which he agrees is indigo), but not for the same chemical made from a
falsified source?

: It's also not pashut that techeles was blue. I've heard opinions that it may
: be turquoise, or even green.

The Belzer Rebbe disagreed with the Ba'al Techeiles because when the latter
showed him a sample of the cloth, the Belzer R' said that it wasn't close
enough to "himl bloi".

The Zohar compares the color to the blue of the first luchos -- saphire.

However, Rashi (on Menachos) says it's a blue-green.

The Amutah deals with this issue by pointing out that the chemical is a green
before the sun finishes curing it to blue.

:             He needs to ascertain for sure if halacha is indeed violated...

It is not. Bidi'eved, one is yotzei "lavan" with any color strings. A point
mentioned in Sefunei Temunei Chol. However, you do lose the lichatchilah.
I reiterate my simple solution: include some blue in the begged, so that at
least according to one shitah, and the only shitah actually held lima'aseh
by the one kehillah (Teimanim) who don't avoid the question, you are yotzei
lichatchilah as well.

I didn't agree with the original email either, as it was too close to the
phenomenon R' Blau was warning about (WRT "Chabakuk") -- taking spirituality
in antinomian directions.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 13-Jan-00: Chamishi, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 98b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 1/13/00 10:12:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

> : Do we really believe in freedom of choice?
>  : What about "kofin oso ad she'yomar rotzeh ani."
>  
>  Poor example, as we only do this when he's mechuyav to divorce his wife,
>  and won't. We could say that the kefiyah is to disentangle her, and is no
>  more an issue of bechirah than of trying to procure her justice.
>  
See the Sugia in Rosh Hashana 6a (and brought in Rambam Lhalacha).

>  : Or "afrushei mei'issura?"
>  
>  This is more of an issue. Gezeiros are set up to avoid being in a situation
>  where a mitzvah would be violated. While I think you need Sanhedrin to
>  create an actual gezeirah, it does argue that "afrushei mei'issura" is a
>  valid motive for setting communal standards, and not just a guideline for
>  personal behavior.

Or Takanas Hatzibur.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

Thankyou for sending these announcements, But could you please stop.
Thanks a lot.


At 08:18 AM 1/13/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Avodah           Thursday, January 13 2000           Volume 04 : Number 286
>
>
>
>Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
>
>Annoyance
>Was re: Haredim and Internet; Now: Freedom of Choice
>RE: Conservative/Reform/Orthodox/Whatever - Who cares?
>RE: (No Subject)
>RE: Haredim and Internet
>Re: Avodah V4 #284
>Is the Golan a Part of Eretz Israel?
>Re: Mixed Seating
>Re: Mitzva Tanz
>sephardic pronunciation
>Re: Prayers of Anguished woman
>techelet
>Re: talking in shul
>Internet-humor alert
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:35:43 -0600
>From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
>Subject: Annoyance
>
>This report from the e-mail Yated drives me (specifically) crazy. You would
>think, from reading it, that there are no female principals in schools that
>are under the TuM umbrella. The irony is that the essay was written by a
>woman!
>
>As the husband of the principal of a Bais Yaakov HS, I am annoyed.
>
>It is almost enough to make pro-yo'atzot (don't worry, not quite :-) ).
>
>Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
>Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
>http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org
>
>- ----- Original Message -----
>From: Yated USA <yated-usa@ttec.com>
>To: <yatedsubscribers@ttec.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 1:13 PM
>Subject: News IV
>
>
>> Yated Neeman USA News IV
>> Stellar Program Planned for Torah Umesorah's Annual Mid-Winter Principals
>> Conference
>> by Rochelle Maruch Miller
>>
>> If sunny southern skies and Miami's balmy temperatures beckon during this
>> time of year, you might not consider Chicago as the ideal venue to escape
>> midwinter's dismal pall. But according to Rabbi Zev Meisels, Menahel of
>> Joan Dachs Bais Yakov and Yeshiva Tiferes Tzvi, the excitement is palpable
>> throughout the community as the date of Torah Umesorah's National
>Midwinter
>> Principals Conference nears. "This conference will bring warmth and beauty
>> to a cold, windy city and bring the beauty and progressive activities of
>> Torah Umesorah to the Midwest chinuch community," explained Rabbi Meisels,
>> during an exclusive interview with the Yated. Together with Rabbi Meir
>> Shapiro, Principal of the Arie Crown Hebrew Day School in Skokie, Rabbi
>> Meisels is Host Co-Chairman of the Conference. And what an event it
>> promises to be, attracting an all-star program of Roshei Yeshiva, rebbeim,
>> principals and chinuch professionals. Indeed, the convention will feature
>a
>> combination of informal sessions and opportunities for mechanchim across
>> the country to network and share ideas with their colleagues in a smaller,
>> congenial and more homey environment.
>> The Conference will begin at the Radisson Hotel Lincolnwood on Wednesday,
>> January 26th, and move into the community for Shabbos, with guests staying
>> with host families. Following registration, mincha and a gala reception,
>> Rabbi Baruch M. Hilsenrath Ed.D., Principal of the Bess and Paul Sigel
>> Hebrew Academy of West Hartford, Ct., and Conference Chairman, will
>deliver
>> the opening address during Dinner.
>> Dr. Simcha Chesner, Ph.D., Director of Kiryat Limudim in Eretz Yisrael ,
>> will present "I've Tried Everything in the Book and It Doesn't Work; How
>to
>> Really Educate the Challenged Child." On Thursday, Dr. Chesner will begin
>> the second part of the Professional Seminar by presenting "Coping With the
>> ADHD Child in the Mainstream Classroom; Application to Limudei Kodesh
>> Subjects With Special Emphasis on Chumash and Gemorah." Rabbi Moshe
>> Possick, Executive Vice President of the National Conference of Yeshiva
>> Principals, lauded Dr. Chesner as being an expert in his field. "We are
>> bringing Dr. Chesner to share his expertise in dealing with the challenged
>> child in the mainstream classroom. Every one of us is challenged-it
>depends
>> in which capacity. Most schools tend to teach to students in one or two
>> modalities. Dr. Chesner will teach us how to effectively teach the child
>> who does not fit into those modalities."
>> Following lunch, the Professional Seminar will continue with a
>> fascinating presentation: "Incremental Learning-Gemarah Teaching in
>Action;
>> A Multimedia Presentation. Rabbi Meisels were serve as Facilitator of this
>> session, with Rabbi Moshe Binyomin Perlstein, Principal of Cheder
>> Lubavitch; Rabbi Ephraim Kletenik, Rebbe and Principal of General Studies,
>> Yeshiva Tiferes Tzvi and Rabbi Eli Samber, Rebbe, Ari Crown Hebrew Day
>> School as featured Presenters.
>> Rabbi Shlomo Morgenstern, Shlita, Rosh Yeshiva of Hebrew Theological
>> College in Skokie, will address the guests during Dinner. A Symposium
>> entitled "Making Schools User Friendly for Our Students" will follow,
>> featuring Rabbi Sholom Strajcher, Principal of Yeshiva University of Los
>> Angeles Girls' High School and Rabbi Henoch Plotnick, Morah D'Asrah of
>Adas
>> B'nei Israel in Chicago and Rebbe at Yeshivas Tiferes Tzvi as panelists.
>> A highlight of the Convention will be a special meeting between Rav Elya
>> Svei, with the mechanchim and chavrei kollel. The Rosh Yeshiva will also
>> meet with the Yeshiva and day school children of the community on Friday
>> morning.
>> Commencing with Mincha and Kabbalas Shabbos, the Joan Dachs Bais Yaakov
>> will be the venue for the entire Shabbos program. Following Kabbalas
>> Shabbos, the Major Address will be delivered by Rav Avrohom Chaim Levin,
>> Shlita, Rosh Yeshiva, Yeshiva Telshe, Chicago and a member of the Rabbinic
>> Administrative Board of Torah Umesorah.
>> During the Seudas Shabbos, Reb Yaakov Rajchenbach, President of Torah
>> Umesorah and a prominent memberof the Chicago community, will address the
>> guests. Rabbi Shalom Diskind, Menahel of Yeshiva Sheiris Yisroel, the
>> Veitzner Cheder will give the D'var Torah. "Impacting Our Students' Live;
>> Raising Them Intellectually and Spiritually" is the theme of the Keynote
>> Address which will be given by Rabbi Oren Reich, Rosh Yeshiva of Perth
>> Amboy, New Jersey.
>> On Shabbos Kodesh, between Shacharis and Mussaf, the mispallelim will have
>> the privilege of hearing Rav Chaim Dov Keller, Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshiva
>> Telshe in Chicago, address them. During the Seudas Shabbos, Rabbi Elya
>> Svei, Rosh Yeshiva, Yeshiva of Philadelphia and Yoshev Rosh, Rabbinical
>> Administrative Board of Torah Umesorah will speak
>> On Motzoei Shabbos, Covention Chairman Rabbi Boruch Hilsenrath, Ed.D.,
>> will present a session entitled, "Educational and Religious Priorities;
>> Understanding Parents' Needs and What They Really Expect From the Day
>> School," followed by "Leader as a Changemaster," presented by Avi Shulman,
>> Mercaz Teacher Training Program and Teacher, Torah Umesorah's Aish Dos.
>> In conjunction with the Conference, Rabbi Hershel Fried will be conducting
>> a workshop on Sunday afternoon for a select group of 25 teachers
>> introducing the Torah Umesorah Be'er Haitaiv Reading Scan, a breakthrough
>> tool in diagnosing reading problems.
>> The Annual National Mid-Winter Principals Conference is a not-to-be-missed
>> event featuring a rich program of superb seminars and workshops in the
>> Torah Umesorah tradition. One of the highlights of the Conference is an
>> informal meeting where principals will be afforded the opportunity to ask
>> the Roshei Yeshiva "shaylos" in a close and informal setting. Outstanding
>> Torah educators from all over the world will converge in Chicago during
>> January 26 through 30th to participate in this extraordinary itinerary of
>> Divrei Torah and professional enrichment.
>>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:37:53 -0600
>From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
>Subject: Was re: Haredim and Internet; Now: Freedom of Choice
>
>Do we really believe in freedom of choice?
>
>What about "kofin oso ad she'yomar rotzeh ani."
>
>Or "afrushei mei'issura?"
>
>We believe in free will, not free choice, no?
>
>Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
>Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
>http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org
>
>- ----- Original Message -----
>From: Chaim Turkel <cyturel@hotmail.com>
>To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
>Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 12:22 AM
>Subject: Haredim and Internet
>
>
>> Hi,
>>   Just a thought. Since one of the basic beliefs in judiasm is the fredom
>of
>> choice, you would think that every person should have the right (and the
>> obligation) to choose for himself right from wrong. There is no more harm
>in
>> the internet then there is every where else. What ever you can find on the
>> internet you can find in the city. There for to ban the internet is a act
>> that goes agains the idea of fredom of choice (since there are very good
>> things on the internet - like this list).
>>
>> chaim turkel
>>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:51:44 +0200
>From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
>Subject: RE: Conservative/Reform/Orthodox/Whatever - Who cares?
>
>> you indicate above, however, it seems that if this
>> fight is won, there is another fight just around the
>> corner between all of the factions in Orthodoxy about
>> acceptance of each other's Gereim.
>
>The problem is that a majority (possibly a large majority) of the
>conversions done by the Rabbanut are either conversions for marriage (with
>no real intention of Kabalat Ohl Malchut Shamayim), conversions for work
>(foreign workers who want to remain here), or conversions for convenience
>(Russian Olim -- lets just dunk them in the mikvah and the problems go
>away).
>
>Even you will admit that none of these reasons are valid for conversion --
>thus their non-acceptance.
>
>Akiva
>
>
>A reality check a day keeps
>the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)
>
>===========================
>Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
>Jerusalem, Israel 91274
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:14:04 +0200
>From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
>Subject: RE: (No Subject)
>
>> written by Shapiro, or even R. Epstein's Mekor Baruch) would
>
>Well, I know from first hand experience (I work for Targum Press) that the
>translation of Vol 2 of Mekor Baruch was put in cherem in the US for 'not
>accurately portraying the Netziv as we, his Talmidim, know him to have
>been'.
>
>> Since every yeshiva type I have met claims to be
>> part of those
>> in the know, who are the unlettered and unwashed masses that
>> supposedly have
>> to be kept in the dark about the world. Do they really exist?
>
>Sociologically speaking, a group/community develops it's own personality,
>separate from the individual's. This "groupthink" mode is what is being
>protected.
>
>Akiva
>
>
>A reality check a day keeps
>the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)
>
>===========================
>Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
>Jerusalem, Israel 91274
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:19:22 +0200
>From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
>Subject: RE: Haredim and Internet
>
>> I was forwarded this article from Yated about the "ban". It
>> sounds completely different here... I apologize for the
>>
>
>"Assur Chamur", the phrase used on the letter, is not the same as
>"discouraged".
>
>The Yated article as posted is *very* watered down.
>
>(This weeks english HaModia has a full translation -- if I get the chance
>I'll type it in later)
>
>Akiva
>
>
>
>A reality check a day keeps
>the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)
>
>===========================
>Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
>Jerusalem, Israel 91274
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:20:37 +0200
>From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada@zahav.net.il>
>Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #284
>
>First of all, Gila -- thank you.
>Here is another thought, which I used in a Shi'ur I gave,
>which is not directly connected:
>
>- ----- Original Message -----
>From: Avodah <owner-avodah@aishdas.org>
>To: <avodah-digest@aishdas.org>
>Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 2:55 AM
>Subject: Avodah V4 #284
>> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 01:01:00 +0200
>> From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
>> Subject: the role of women and its kedusha.
>>
>> Dear Shoshana and chevra,
>>
>> To tell you the truth, I did not hurry to answer this one,
>expecting all our
>> learned chevra to bring beautiful long presentations with
>meqoros.  I did
>> not feel qualified to contribute at the level you
>requested,  with my simple
>> understanding and my sad habit of forgetting my sources-
>(and little time to
>> rediscover them!).  Since you've all been so busy with
>other threads I won't
>> hold back.
>
>Don't hold back!!!
>
>> There is a gevaldig comparison of a woman's work in the
>home with the avodah
>> of the cohen gadol. It does indeed have a source-  but of
>course I've
>> forgotten it, so I'll trust some kind obliging member to
>perhaps recall it.
>>
>>Flour, oil, spices-  vital ingredients in the Beis
>hamikdash and
>> vital ingredients at home.
>
>Actually the relevant trio is Flour, Wine, Oil  or:   Dagan,
>Tirosh and Yizhar.
>
>We find this trio in Birkat Yitzchak to Yaakov together with
>the blessing on being dependant on rain (and Birkat Hashem,
>vs. Esav who get's abundant water sources).
>
>Why do I mention this?
>
>A year and a half ago, while studying Permaculture, we went
>to visit a farm in the Nahal Ayalon region of the Judean
>hills.  One of the fascinating aspects of the tour was a
>look at the local archeology.   The ancient method of
>growing was to have olive trees on terraces and grain was
>grown among the trees, and vineyards were grown on other
>slopes.  They found there ancient structures for grain
>production, oil production, and most importantly - wine
>production.
>
>Why is this important?
>
>Because it proves the connection with the Jewish people.
>The Moslems who came here took out the vineyards, for the
>most part and they don't make wine, so modern day people
>coming there only found olive trees and grain.  But the
>presence of structures for wine making prove that the area
>was once settled by jews.
>
>Another interesting find was that in the walls of the local
>pool there were large holes (for want of a better word)
>where fish was held.  The theory being that it was too
>difficult to get to Jaffa and the sea to catch a fresh fish
>every Shabbat, so they raised fish locally for Shabbat use.
>
>Shoshana
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 11:46:04 +0200
>From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada@zahav.net.il>
>Subject: Is the Golan a Part of Eretz Israel?
>
>A friend fwd this to me, and I'm passing it on.
>
>Shoshana L. Boublil
>=====================
>
>>Is the Golan a Part of Eretz Israel?
>>
>>Responsa by Rav Shlomo Aviner
>>
>>Although statements have been made implying that the Golan
>is not an integral
>>part of Eretz Israel, our sages divide Eretz Israel into
>three regions:
>>Judah, the East Bank of the Jordan (including the Golan),
>and Galilee. In the
>>responsa Birkei Yosef (Orach Chaim 489), there is a
>lengthy, detailed
>>discussion regarding performance of mitzvot and the
>relative sanctity of the
>>East Bank of the Jordan, but there is no question that it
>is part of Eretz
>>Israel. The Chazon Ish proves that wherever the twelve
>tribes lived must
>>automatically be considered part of Eretz Israel; were this
>not so, the
>>mitzva of shmitta could never have been observed anywhere,
>as it is dependent
>>upon "all tribes residing in Eretz Israel," and the tribes
>of Reuven, Gad and
>>half of Menashe never lived anywhere else but on the East
>Bank. Were the East
>>Bank not part of Eretz Israel, it would mean that they
>never lived in Eretz
>>Israel, and that would invalidate the mitzva of shmitta.
>>
>>Furthermore, none of the Rishonim ever explicitly wrote
>that the East Bank is
>>not part of Eretz Israel. Even the Ran, who wrote that the
>verse, "And Gd
>>will implant in you an irate heart" refers to those
>dwelling on the East
>>Bank, explains that this is because they are exempt from
>certain mitzvot,
>>such as the Omer. However, he did not write that it is not
>part of Eretz
>>Israel (Nedarim 22a). Even the Tashbetz, who is extremely
>strict in his
>>definitions, and presents a detailed list of distinctions,
>does not state
>>that the East Bank is not a part of Eretz Israel. He asks
>why Moshe Rabeinu
>>was so eager to cross the Jordan if the East Bank is also
>part of Eretz
>>Israel, and his answer is that he wanted to be buried
>"beneath the altar," a
>>concept which only applies to the West Bank of Eretz
>Israel, and that the
>>East Bank is described in Joshua 22:19 as "impure land"
>(Tashbetz part III).
>>However, nowhere does he suggest that it might not be an
>integral part of
>>Eretz Israel.
>>
>>Obviously, there are levels of sanctity in Eretz Israel.
>Even on the East
>>Bank of the Jordan, there is a difference between the
>southern region, Judah,
>>and the northern region, the Galilee. And that famous
>statement in the book
>>of Joshua that the inheritance of the two and a half tribes
>is in "impure
>>land" can be interpreted in different ways. Rashi takes the
>statement
>>literally; however Radak understands it to mean, "If the
>land of your
>>possession seems to you to be impure." In either case, the
>East Bank has less
>>sanctity than other areas of Eretz Israel, and the Divine
>Presence is not
>>felt so strongly there. Neither the Mishkan nor Bamot
>altars could have been
>>built there. Today, of course, that is irrelevant, for the
>Beit Hamikdash can
>>only be built in Jerusalem.
>>
>>Therefore, we conclude that the Golan is eternally and
>irrevocably an
>>integral part of Eretz Israel. Moshe Rabeinu did not
>conquer the land of
>>Sichon and Og for no purpose. Although other areas of Eretz
>Israel may be
>>spiritually superior, we do not choose to settle here for
>our own personal
>>spiritual enrichment, but rather on behalf of the whole
>Nation of Israel, who
>>are commanded to settle the length and breadth of Eretz
>Israel.
>>
>>Were we to entertain the slightest doubt that the Golan is
>not an integral
>>part of Eretz Israel, we would still be forbidden to
>retreat from the Golan,
>>for it is a border town, and Jewish law prohibits
>abandoning a border town to
>>gentiles because they will utilize it to conquer Eretz
>Israel, and to shell
>>the Galilee. We must not cede it to our enemies in return
>for a pottage of
>>lentils and lies.
>>
>>This however is all irrelevant, for the Golan is an
>integral part of Eretz
>>Israel. Not one of the earliest rabbis (Rishonim) denies
>this. A few
>>generations ago, when dedicated Jews sacrificed so much to
>establish the
>>Golan village of Bnei Yehuda, they asked Rav Yehoshua of
>Kotno whether it was
>>a mitzva, and he responded that it was a very great mitzva
>(Resonsa Yeshuot
>>Malko Yoreh Deah 67). They followed his ruling and risked
>their lives; the
>>clods of earth have soaked up their blood. Who today dares
>to disagree with
>>this great rabbi?
>>
>>So too, today, after we have sacrificed so much to conquer
>the Golan, and to
>>establish settlements there, and since the Knesset has
>pronounced the Golan
>>an integral inseparable part of the State of Israel, we
>shall not retreat,
>>but rather reinforce our stand here. Certainly, the voice
>of Torah must not
>> support weak politicians, but rather pronounce loud and
>clear: Do not fear;
>>more power to you. The voice of Torah must call out: Come,
>in your hundreds,
>>your thousands, and your hundreds of thousands to settle in
>the Golan. For so
>>many years the Golan has been like a widow whose sons have
>forsaken her, and
>>now they have returned. "The mother of the children
>rejoices." "And the sons
>>have returned to their borders." We did not risk our lives
>in vain, we did
>>not fight in vain, and we did not build in vain. We shall
>continue to listen
>>to the voice calling out from the mountain tops: Children,
>return to your
>>land and take possession of it; build houses and plant
>vineyards, for the
>>Eternal One of Israel will not fail.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 04:07:48 -0800 (PST)
>From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: Mixed Seating
>
>- --- TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:
>> In a message dated 1/12/00 5:58:22 PM Eastern
>> Standard Time, 
>> hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:
>> 
>> << people who do have mixed seating be disrespected
>> in
>>  this way? >>
>>  Arrgghh....Disrespect is not a verb.
>> 
>> Sorry, I teach High School.
>> 
>> Jordan
>
>I ain't so sure bout dat! :)
>
>HM (victim of cultural language-acide)
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
>http://im.yahoo.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 11:00:21 +0200
>From: "Danny Schoemann" <dannys@dorotree.com>
>Subject: Re: Mitzva Tanz
>
>Harry Maryles wrote:
>
>> They also have something called a Mitzvah Tanz where
>> the Chasan and Kallah hold hands while they dance,
>> after the wedding is over and mostly only family
>> members remain which seems a little ridiculous
>> considering the lengths they go to to separate men and
>> women during the more public wedding and Seudah.
>
>Actually, the few Mitzva Tanzen I've seen can barely be described as
>"dancing".
>
>The Chasan and Kallah hold hand (barely) and take a few steps / suffles. The
>other "dancers" (usually  - if not always  - close family) will hold the
>other end of a gartel and take a few steps while the kalla stands there
>mortified.
>
>Why wife tells me that the Kalla dreads this part of the evening.
>
>All this to the backdrop of Mussar sayings said in a "levaya" kind of tune,
>and after makiing sure the bochrim have left.
>
>Nothing really un-tznius about it.
>
>Just for the record...
>
>Danny Schoemann
>naomi@kosher.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:57:27 +0200 ("IST)
>From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
>Subject: sephardic pronunciation
>
>Ari asks
>
><< I am interested in both the historical development of  the various
>pronunciations of Hebrew as well as the halachik ramifications. I find
>it perplexing that despite the fact that most of the early settlers of
>modern Israel were Ashkenazim, the Sephardik pronunciation became the
>dominant one. Does anyone know how this came about (historically?
>motivations?)? Is anyone familiar
>with scholarly and halachik research that discusses how and
>when the various pronunciations of Hebrew developed and which are more
>"authentic"? >>
>
>On the contrary most of the early population of Israel was sephardi
>because the Turks did not recognize the European communities.
>
>I have an article in the RJJ journal on the halachot of the
>pronunciation.
>
>Eli Turkel
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:17:27 +0200
>From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
>Subject: Re: Prayers of Anguished woman
>
>>So I ask Richard also (and anyone else) what the phrase PRAY ON means.
>Throughout >tanach it is used for praying AGAINST/ON somebody.
>
>I did mention a possible understanding of this many many posts ago. Perhaps
>you missed it or dismissed it- but at any rate I come to bring an answer to
>your plea.
>The tefila of "macnia zedim" could refer, not to the destruction of our
>enemies but to humbling in them in such a way that they might come to do
>tshuva. "Kol bidei shamayim chutz miyiras shamayim". Hashem generally does
>not determine a person's bechira but can arrange circumstances which can
>push a person to take stock and perhaps choose to make the correct decision.
>If they still can't do it, Hashem may decide to finish him off and spare the
>victim further anguish.
>Here I'm only referring to a case where the mesarev is clearly in the wrong
>and the woman is definitely a victim.  Even so, as Carl Sherer has pointed
>out, we should be extremely afraid to bring din on someone else's head-
>even if you're Sarah Imenu. (Breishis 17-5)- she asked for mishpat, not for
>din (mishpat is milder, tempered with mercy), but still with consequences
>for her. The midrash brings this as a reason for her earlier petira.
>
>Mrs. G.A.
>
>btw I recently saw in the Tanya the reference to a soul termed as an
>"almanah chaya" because for whatever reason she is disconnected from Hashem.
>Perhaps our deep concern about the agunah situation reflects a deeper
>unconscious concern about spiritual galus.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:00:29 +0200
>From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
>Subject: techelet
>
>A recent poster mentioned that certain Chassidic Rebbes might hold that it's
>good enough to use techeles which may not be from the original chilazon
>because it's enough just to have the right colour in a mystic/spiritual
>sense?  Is that what you're saying? Please forgive me if my paraphrase is in
>error.
>First of all, I assume you're talking about techelet derived from Sepia
>officinalis (cuttlefish) even though we only use the nitrogen from it, and
>the original techelet was probably from something like Murex, or something
>other.
>
>You'd have to ask the people who use the cuttlefish dye whether they hold
>that they believe they're using authentic 'chilazon'  (likely error) or
>whether the colour is the ikkar and if there are either halachic and/or al
>pi sod grounds for not being concerned about the traditional  derivation. I
>can't speak for them- I only ask to be dan lecaf zchus.
>
>It's also not pashut that techeles was blue. I've heard opinions that it may
>be turquoise, or even green.  I've even heard the theory that back then
>people were blue/green colourblind and could not distinguish the colour of
>the sky from green.  Anyone know sources for this?
>
>(re following a Rebbe's actions, even if he seems to be disregarding
>halacha, because that is a way to kedusha-  (despite my chassidic
>affiliations)  It seems to me that the chassid should ask a few serious
>questions.  He needs to ascertain for sure if halacha is indeed violated,
>and if this proves to be the case he has to ask himself whether he should be
>following a man who is not concerned about these halachos. Similarly, if a
>person is not chassidic and they see chassidim following questionable
>practices, it is better to investigate thoroughly why they're acting this
>way rather than assume from a distance that they're in the wrong.  (This is
>a general remark, and not a criticism of the previous poster. ) Please
>contact me offlist for any details and discussion-  I don't want to start a
>machlokes here. )
>
>===================================================
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:03:56 -0600
>From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
>Subject: Re: talking in shul
>
>On Wed, Jan 12, 2000 at 10:09:25PM -0500, Gershon Dubin wrote:
>:                             I believe the Tosfos Yom Tov said many tzoros
>: came to Klal Yisrael as a consequence.
>
>I think he specifically said Ta"Ch viTa"t did. The Tos' Y"T also wrote a Mi
>sheBeirach for people who don't speak during davening or leining, that I've
>been trying to get our gabbai to say as added assistance for my yeitzer hatov
>(which doesn't do to hot with this one).
>
>- -mi
>
>- -- 
>Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 13-Jan-00: Chamishi, Bo
>micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
>http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 98b
>For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:19:00 -0500
>From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
>Subject: Internet-humor alert
>
>I came across the following "tfilas haderech" for web surfers.  Since it
>is my belief that most of us are more familiar with tfilas haderech than
>with modern Hebrew,  I will transliterate,  and translate the unusual
>terms.   My transliteration is not intended to follow any rules,  so
>don't jump on me for it:
>
>Yehi ratzon milefanecha shetechabrenu (connect) beshalom vesaglishenu
>(surf) beshalom vesagienu la'asar (site) cheftzenu beshalom usenatkenu
>(disconnect) beshalom ubezol,  vesatzilenu mikaf kol virus unefila
>(crash) baderech,  umikol minei asorei zevel, pritzus va'avodah zara
>hamsiragshim lavo ba'olam havirtuali,  vesishlach beracha bechol ma'aseh
>achborenu (mouse) vesitnenu lechen ulerachamim be'einei kol masach
>(screen),  vesishma kol arnakenu, ki shome'ah tefila vesachanun ata
>umeginenu mibitul zman.
>
>Gershon
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of Avodah V4 #286
>*********************
>
>
>[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.
   ]
>[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org
   ]
>[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to
majordomo@aishdas.org ]
>[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/
   ]
>[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org
   ]
>
>

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]