Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 285

Thursday, January 13 2000

• Re: Avodah V4 #280
• Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
• (No Subject)
• Re: Mixed Seating
• Re: Women and Cohanim
• Re: Mixed Seating
• Re: Avodah V4 #281
• talking in shul
• How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox
• Re: the internet and us
• Kavana Betfila
• Religious Hiring Problems in Israel
• Haredim and the internet
• Haredim and Internet

I thought people would be interested in a Torah Source discussing the recent 
PSAK regarding the internet.  It provides a different explanation than the 
anti Torah article posted earlier.  It is from the email edition of Yateed 
Neeman which you can subsribe too.

Israeli Torah Leaders Warn Against Internet Dangers
by Rabbi Abraham Hoffenberg

Last week a long list of prominent Torah authorities in Eretz Yisroel
issued a public letter warning of the potential dangers inherent in
irresponsible Internet use. Among the Torah leaders who signed the document 
were Rav Yosef Shalom Eliyashiv, Rav Aharon Leib Shteinman, Rav Nissim 
Karelitz and Rav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg.

The letter urges those who use the Internet in the course of their work to 
use it responsibly, which includes ensuring that others-especially 
children-do not go online without adequate supervision. Recreational use of 
the Internet is discouraged.

WHAT IS THE INTERNET?
The Internet is essentially a large number of computers situated in
various locations around the world that are connected to one another by 
means of optic cable. With the appropriate software, it is possible for 
computers linked to the system to "talk" to one another-in other words, to 
transfer information back and forth at the speed of light. Anyone can tap 
into this network-dubbed the "information superhighway"-by opening an 
Internet account with a local server and then having one's computer call up 
the system through a modem, which uses one's telephone line to hook up with 
the server.

When a person is linked to the Internet, he can find the information he 
needs by using search engines, which work like digital telephone
directories, but search according to topic, rather than name and address.

Someone who wants to find out more about the Amazon rain forest, for
example, types these words into a screen, which activates a mega-computer 
located somewhere on the globe, which then searches through the entire 
network of computers, otherwise known as the World Wide Web, for websites 
discussing Amazon rain forests. The mega-computer compiles a list of 
high-potential sites and sends it back to the user, who has been sitting in 
his living room all this time.

The information contained in the Internet is extremely diverse. A person can 
create a website offering information on Amazon rain forests, or on how to 
change a flat tire, or on the weekly parsha-or on how to construct a 
homemade bomb. Anything and everything can go on the Internet, since no one 
controls or censors the network. It is a completely autonomous medium of 
global communication that delivers information around the world at lightning 
speed.

Analysts say that in the coming decade the Internet will replace the
telephone, the yellow pages, the fax, postal mail and even stores. Today one 
can shop online by browsing through catalogues and paying for the products 
by supplying one's credit card number. There is little doubt that stamps and 
mailboxes will become the stuff of museums in the not-so-distant future.

Like the printing press, electricity and internal combustion engines, the 
Internet will become a dominant entity in our world and affect our daily 
lives. There is no longer any doubt that it is here to stay. The big 
challenge facing the Torah community will be to find ways of using it 
safely, without compromising our values and exposing our children to the 
vast amounts of filth it contains.

POSITIVE ASPECTS OF INTERNET
As mentioned earlier, the Internet constitutes a tremendous advancement in 
the fields of communications, research and business. Affording instant 
communication between continents at the cost of a local phone call, it 
enables people to access vast amounts of information with a single click of 
the mouse. Someone living in Los Angeles-or Timbuktu, for that matter-can 
tap into a reference library in New York or London or Zurich and research 
almost any topic under the sun without ever leaving the comfort of his home. 
Goods and services can be exchanged in the same manner.

In this respect the Internet is a major advancement for the Torah
community, since it enables religious people to earn a decent living while 
they remain safely ensconced in the spiritually controlled environment of 
the Jewish home or office. Theoretically, one can now work for any company 
in the world without ever having to actually go there.

The Internet is also a phenomenal means of disseminating Torah throughout 
the world instantly and at very low cost. Shiurim-both written and in audio 
form-can be sent to hundreds of thousands of subscribers in a matter of 
minutes. Likewise, websites make it possible for Jews throughout the world 
to access Torah literature and develop meaningful long-distance 
relationships with kiruv personnel and rabbis. Numerous kiruv organizations 
and yeshivos for the newly observant use the Internet as an extremely 
effective outreach tool.
Ohr Somayach's website, for example, draws 50,000 visitors monthly from all 
over the world, including North America, Ireland, Poland, South Africa and 
even Taiwan. Ohrnet, the yeshiva's popular online publication on the weekly 
parsha, has 20,000 weekly subscribers, plus over 1,000 community leaders who 
download it, print it on hard copy, and distribute it among members of their 
communities. Every day over 100 halachic questions are received by Ask the 
Rabbi, the yeshiva's online rabbinical counseling column. The yeshiva's 
staff of rabbonim answers the straightforward questions, while the difficult 
questions are brought to Yerushalayim's leading poskim.

Ohr Somayach is just one of many organizations utilizing the Internet to 
disseminate Torah among Jews. The list includes Aish HaTorah, Artscroll 
Messorah Publications, Feldheim Publishers, The Chofetz Chaim Heritage 
Foundation, Vaad Mishmereth Stam, Rabbi Zev Leff, Rabbi Avigdor Bonchek 
(author of What's Bothering Rashi?), Torah Net, Project Genesis, Manof and 
many more.

THE DOWN SIDE
On the other hand, the Internet comprises a threat to society's moral
standards. The negative aspects of the Internet are as explosive as the 
positive. Due to commercial interests the good things receive a lot more 
press coverage than the bad things, even though the bad may very well 
outnumber the good.

For although the Internet can be used as a beneficial tool, it can just as 
easily become a conduit to viewing the lowest kind of filth in the world.

Everything depends on the maturity of the user, on the degree of
self-discipline he has, and his willingness to avoid obvious pitfalls 
andstay on the beaten track. Just as the simple act of walking down the 
street can be hazardous for one's spiritual welfare unless one takes some 
basic precautions and exercises self-discipline, the same is true of the 
Internet.

Increasing numbers of American parents are becoming aware of the dangers 
that the Internet brings to their children, and in the past year or so they 
have begun to react. Faced with the growing demand for an effective national 
system to protect children from harmful Internet content, leading academics 
from four universities around the world recently presented a list of 
recommendations to the American government.

In response, President Clinton announced an expansive plan to provide
parents and teachers with "easy-to-use" child protection technology, as well 
as to enforce existing laws designed to protect children from the dangers of 
the Internet. The president did not say how much time it would take the 
government to implement the plan, but by the look of things, it could take a 
good few years.

Meanwhile, there are several software programs available on the market
that can filter out the objectionable material available on the Internet by 
electronically preventing the user from seeing off-limit sites. However, the 
fact is that many parents have not installed these safeguards in their home 
computers. This may be due to their unawareness that the problem exists, or 
simply a result of their lack of familiarity with handling the home 
computer.

Experts say that part of the problem is that most parents have never been 
online, and thus, they are not aware of the dangers their children are 
exposed to when they access the Internet. Uninformed parents erroneously 
equate computers with education-when they see their children sitting in 
front of a computer, they automatically assume that they are learning 
something "worthwhile." This is a colossal mistake. An error of equal 
proportions is to view the computer as an electronic babysitter, in whose 
care one's child is safe.

A computer is just a collection of chips and wires that executes programs. 
Programs are created by people, and as all of us know too well, there are 
all sorts of people in the world-some good, some bad, and some depraved.

Allowing a child to use a new computer program or visit an unknown Internet 
site is like allowing him to play in the park with a total stranger.

But perversion is not the only danger the Internet has to offer our 
children.

MOM, HOW DO YOU BUILD A BOMB?

There are plenty of books available on the Internet, but not many of them 
are educational. The Big Book of Mischief is a good example of the kind of 
"educative" material a child can access through the Internet. It teaches a 
variety of ingenious ways of inflicting serious injury and death, and gives 
children the tools they need to get the job done.

Part I is subtitled, "The Terrorist's Handbook." Of course it comes with the 
requisite disclaimer: that serious injury or death could result from any 
attempt to make the recipes it contains, and that the book is being provided 
merely for your reading pleasure. Then it proceeds to explain how to make 
nitroglycerine, and how to buy whatever you need to build a bomb at your 
local grocery, hardware and farming supply stores.

Who are the terrorists armed with this deadly and easily accessible
information? According to local newspaper reports from around the United 
States, these "terrorists" include regular American children.
And don't think it is a hoax-the recipes really work. In March 1997
Michael, 13, suffered burns on over 25 percent of his body when he and a 
friend were building a smoke bomb from instructions they had found on the 
Internet. It turned out that Michael did not have a computer in his home, 
but his friend did, and the boys would go online at the friend's home 
unsupervised. Learning how to build a bomb turned out to be as simple as 
typing the word "bomb" into their favorite search engine.

This was only one of many documented incidents. After a bombing near-miss, 
the police department in Jackson Township, NJ, issued a public warning 
listing some objects parents should look out for if they're concerned that 
their children may have gotten into the bomb building business as a 
consequence of reading the Internet guide book. These included pails or 
buckets, soda or bleach bottles, pipes, ammonia, glycerin or paraffin.

Parents in Jackson Township were warned to call the police if they found 
anything that looked suspicious, rather than attempting to deal with the 
"bomb" or bomb ingredients themselves.

Sound too far out? Your child would never do such a thing? Hopefully. But 
that's not the point. The bomb story illustrates the kind of uncensored and 
often illegal material that one's child can access through the Internet.

This witch's brew of harmful material is readily available to anyone,
regardless of age, maturity or character flaws.

SO WHAT CAN WE DO?
There is only one answer for us Torah-observant Jews-to follow the
directives of our Torah leaders and take basic precautions.
If you don't need the Internet, don't use it. And don't worry about
falling behind the times-when it becomes a necessity, you will learn to use 
it in a matter of minutes.

If you need to use the Internet, try to avoid installing it at home. Useit 
only in the office. Even then, try to use it only for work, and not for 
recreational purposes.

If you need to use it for work at home, take the necessary steps to ensure 
that no one else in your home can use it without your knowledge. Some 
suggestions are:
1. Sit down with your children and explain to them some of the inherent 
dangers of the Internet.
2. Use a secret password to log on.
3. Change your password frequently.
4. Keep the computer in a central family location, not in your child's room.
5. Make sure you can see what's on the monitor at all times.
6. Let your children know you look at the monitor from time to time.
7. Browse through your hard drive and floppy disks from time to time,
especially looking for downloaded images, easily spotted because they
usually end with either, "JPG" or "GIF." Let your children know you do this.
8. There is a variety of software available today that can filter out
objectionable material or block access to harmful sites. Find something
that suits your needs and consider getting it.
What the Torah leaders of Eretz Yisroel are essentially saying is that the 
Internet is a volatile tool that must be handled with care and kept far from 
the reaches of the young and the immature.
It is a self-evident message, but one that should be taken to heart.
_________________


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

In a message dated 1/12/00 1:40:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< His wedding had mixed seating. When R. Zvi Hirsch
 Meisels, ZTL, a Posek of some renoun and a Satmar
 oriented Chasidic Rebbe, put pressure on him to have
 seperate seating, R. Giffin asked this Shaila to R.
 Rogov, his Rebbe at the time and received the above
 response.
 
 As to your question, "Is it proper for men and women
 to socialize together?"... What's the problem? As long
 as there are no Isurei Ervah violations or Tznius
 violations. >>

I have not been following this thread religiously, so perhaps this was 
already raised, but it seems to me, based on my experience only, that 
seperate seating at Misnagdishe events is very recent, perhaps the last 
twenty years. I have always understood it to have something to do with the 
cross pollination taking place, especially in N. Y., between the Chasidic 
communities which have always followed this practice, and the Lithuanian 
communities, which generally have not. In the last number of years, there 
have been more "mixed marriages," more young men of Chasidic stock learning 
in the classic Lithuanian Yeshivas, and more contact between leaders in the 
various communities than ever. It is not surprising that some practices creep 
into the Lithuanian world. 
As far as criticism of R' Aharon Schecter goes, I would be very wary in 
pointing out individual practices of Gedolim that aren't a reflection of some 
Halachik Shito being discussed. Even though the original poster did not mean 
it in a negative way, it was based on hearsay, an ex post facto analysis of 
someone's specific act, and not a known personal minhag. R' Schecter, with 
whom I have had some contact, is a charismatic and fiery personality, and is 
unafraid to make his views known.

Jordan   

A few weeks ago Marc Shapiro announced the appearance of his book. I ordered it
(on Barnes and Noble -- the distributor was all out), read it, and enjoyed it
immensely. I think it does an excellent job portraying R. Weinberg, showing
the greatness as well as the tragedy of the man. There are no problems here,
as far as I am concerned, that existed with regard to the letters that were
published in Torah uMadda.

I then gave the book to an older (semi-Haredi) rabbi who actually met
R. Weinberg a few times in Switzerland. He also told me that he enjoyed the
book very much, and that it gives a very good picture of the R. Weinberg
he knew, and shows the tensions of the man. But then he said something very
interesting concerning which I would like to get reaction. It went something
like this (I am obviously quoting from memory, so this is more of a paraphrase)

    This is a very important and fascinating and erudite book, and I am sure
    many people in your [i. e., MO] community will read it and gain a lot
    of insight. People in your community go to college, are sophisticated
    in historical matters, and already regard gedolim as real people who
    are also great zaddikim and talmidei hakhamim.

    However, in my community, although all the intellectuals and many of the
    rabbonim will read it with great profit (as they do with Saul Lieberman's
    books) this biography of R. Weinberg would not be fitting for the masses,
    who anyway wouldn't be able to follow it because they are ignorant of
    history [and the MO masses aren't ignorant?] Also, they regard the gedolim
    as superhuman, almost prophets, so that one can't speak about tensions
    etc. in the lives of gedolim. All who have spent time with gedolim know
    this to be untrue [he then mentioned a couple of gedolim whom he knew,
    and who were irritable, worried about their kavod, etc. in order to
    show that even gedolim have to struggle deals with such issues, and he
    also mentioned some gemaras which illustrated this]. Those who have been
    close to true gedolim see their gadlus precisely because they see them
    as real people who strive to achieve their gadlus and sometimes have to
    overcome a negative quality or look the other way when wicked people try
    to destroy them because their hashkafos or pesakim aren't what others would
    like. The personalities of gedolim are very different one from another. But
    the masses cannot understand this. They need to see the gedolim as not
    susceptible to errors in hashkafah and as guided by an infallible daas
    Torah. We who have been close to gedolim and believe in daas Torah know
    that it is not infallible, since it is not prophesy but connected to the
    neshamah of the gadol who is himself not infallible. Therefore, it is no
    surprise that gedolim have made errors, sometimes of great significance,
    These were not apparent at the time, but we see clearly in retrospect,
    just like later generations saw that R. Akiva made an error with regard
    to Bar Kokhba. But as far as the masses are concerned, their emunah would
    suffer if they knew this, if they thought of the gedolim as people just
    like them, only much greater. The masses must be encouraged to view the
    gedolim as having angelic personalities without any tensions as well as
    having a direct line to
God on all important issues, something which was always the case in Chasidus
but is now also popular in yeshiva circles.

My question is, is this really true? That is, Are the haredi masses so
unsophisticated that real history, and a real biography of a gadol (such as
written by Shapiro, or even R. Epstein's Mekor Baruch) would have negative
effects on their emunah? Is it really true, as this rabbi suggests that the
haredi masses don't see their gedolim as real people. I know this is how
their newspapers and Artscroll type books portray things, but every haredi
I have ever met always claims that he knows the truth -- and after all,
machlokes among gedolim is a part of this world --, but that the masses
(often identified with the women) need to be fed these things. They all
claim to know that Yated is full of propaganda and unrealistic portrayals
of gedolim. Since every yeshiva type I have met claims to be part of those
in the know, who are the unlettered and unwashed masses that supposedly have
to be kept in the dark about the world. Do they really exist?

              Zvi

In a message dated 1/12/00 5:58:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< people who do have mixed seating be disrespected in
 this way? >>
 Arrgghh....Disrespect is not a verb.

Sorry, I teach High School.

Jordan

I do not know what Mrs. Gila Atwood's profession is, but I just hope that my 
daughters are zocheh to be taught to appreciate the beauty of their given 
role in Judaism by someone who explains it to them as eloquently as Mrs. 
Atwood did in her recent post. Her appreciation for the mitzvos that are 
specially given to her is something that should be taught to girls of all 
ages so that they do not feel the need to imitate and be jealous of the 
mitsvos that they are not allowed or discouraged from doing.

In general, I never understood why feminists don't learn and highlight the 
mitsvos that uniquely theirs. Is there any mitzvah more beautiful than 
Hadlokas ner shabbos? Women bring the kedusha of Shabbos into the Home! It is 
sad that the beauty of this mitzva, which is appreciated even by non-Jewish 
movie directors, is not appreciated by some Jewish women.   

Frinds who are parents of Chaim Berliners have told me that they had to
make their kid's chasanah separate seating because if not the Rosh
HaYeshiva would not come. Period.
steve

Harry Maryles wrote:

> --- "Stein, Aryeh E." <aes@ll-f.com> wrote:
>
> > R. Rogov ZTL, when asked
> > about mixed seating by one of his brightest
> > talmidim,
> > Rabbi Erwin Giffen ZL, whose wedding was mixed,
> > answered, "In Lita zennen mir nit geven makpid" (In
> > Lithuania we weren't Makpid)."
> >
> > Personally, I don't understand why it should be
> > "upsetting."  If someone
> > wishes to impose upon himself certain restrictions,
> > and decides not to place
> > himself in a situation where he may be exposed to
> > "un-tsniusdika" sights,
> > this should be admired, not derogated.
>
> It's not that it is a self imposed restriction. That
> is in and of itself fine. However, if a Gadol acts in
> this manner, he has an audience... of admirers and
> emulators, it seems to be sending a message that mixed
> seating is such a Minhag Garua that it is best not to
> attend such affairs. I'm sure that if a Gadol were
> invited to such an affair and it was well known that
> he does not sit mixed, a "men only" will be set up for
> him. The problem is that often there are situations
> that require mixed seating, even if the Chasan and
> Kallah would prefer seperate seating. Why should
> people who do have mixed seating be disrespected in
> this way?
>
> HM
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:52:33 -0500
From: "Stein, Aryeh E." <aes@ll-f.com>
Subject: RE: Mixed Seating

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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Harry Maryles wrote:

"I find this so upsetting!

"Especially when the Previous RY of Chaim Berlin, R
Yitzchak Hutner, ZTL did not act that way. Why does R.
Aharon Schechter do this?  Is he saying that mixed
seating is Assur? Is he saying that he is Frummer than
R. Hutner?  There are Photos of R. Moshe Fienstien and
R. Yaakov Kaminetsky sitting mixed. Rav  Aaron
Soloveitchik actually requests sitting next to his
wife even at a seperate seating affair. So it can't be
Assur.  I DON'T GET IT!!!  R. Rogov ZTL, when asked
about mixed seating by one of his brightest talmidim,
Rabbi Erwin Giffen ZL, whose wedding was mixed,
answered, "In Lita zennen mir nit geven makpid" (In
Lithuania we weren't Makpid)."

Personally, I don't understand why it should be "upsetting."  If someone
wishes to impose upon himself certain restrictions, and decides not to place
himself in a situation where he may be exposed to "un-tsniusdika" sights,
this should be admired, not derogated.

Sender Baruch wrote:

>>"I have heard (and I have witnessed on one occasion) that
>>R' Aaron Shechter won't stay for the meal at a wedding if there
>>is mixed seating.  "

"Is this what "people say"? Or do you know someone who asked him?
For example, on that one occasion - perhaps he had somewhere
else to go?"


As for Sender's concerns, I was at a wedding (that took place at a hall
located a considerable distance from Flatbush) when I noticed R' Shechter
leaving.  A Chaim Berliner (or so he claimed) who was at the wedding
explained to me the reason for his exit.  Of course, without asking RAS
directly, I have no way of knowing if it is 100% true.  A lashon hora/motzei
shaim ra problem didn't occur to me, as I don't think his actions couldn't
be construed in a derogatory way.  So much for my thought process....

kt
Aryeh

Now that we have dragged thru the mud the name of a true Ohaiv Yisroel,
allow me to point out that the Rosh Yeshiva's normal practice is to leave
most weddings long before dinner is served, thus his early departure is a
sign of nothing but his leaving earlier than most people. (He goes to more
weddings than most people and has a rather full non-wedding schedule.)

The Yeshiva has both mixed and seperate seating at thier annual dinner, and
I have noticed that he usually attends this event.

As for being frummer-then-you crowd, I am sure he is frummer than me.

Simcha Klagsbrun

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:52:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #279-talking in shul

<<Why shouldn't there be an insistence on decorum in shul? Ignoring it
leads to the circus-like situation I witnessed that Shabbos.>>

	Unfortunately this disease has been with us for generations,  the poskim
have decried it very much,  I believe the Tosfos Yom Tov said many tzoros
came to Klal Yisrael as a consequence.  We need to just learn to keep our
mouths shut.

Gershon

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:34:29 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Re: Re How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthod

<<The ability to understand contemporary culture is a valuable tool in
kiruv and probably a big factor that attracted YU'ers  and Hirschian's to
be able to 
articulate Torah concepts im nodern terminology in order to do outreach
to 
educated, assimilated Jews.>>

	Do you have reason to believe that there is more kiruv done by YU'ers
and Hirschians than by "blacks" among "educated assimilated Jews"?  I
will not assert the opposite,  but am fairly sure that the statement

"understanding contemporary culture" (AKA secularly educated) =  ability
to do kiruv

is not grounded in fact.

Gershon

It's pretty ironic. we're sitting in front of our modems discussing hashkafa, 
avodah and inyanei Torah and it's been declared asur. With all due respect 
for the gdolim, the Yated article is a restatement of what ant ben Torah 
shouyld be aware of lchatchila.                                          
zeliglaw@aol.com
                                                          Steven Brizel

> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 02:22:33 +0200
> From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
> Subject: Re: Kavana beTfilah
 
<<davar rishon-  use a siddur!  Don't do it by heart. It is too easy to
get into a groove.>>

	I would add,  davar rishon "a":  find a minyan (yeshiva, shtibel, no
difference,  achar kavanas halev hen hadvorim) which takes their davening
seriously.  It rubs off (if you let it).

	That said,  it is an unfortunate fact of human nature that any activity
can become rote (I heard beshem Rav Avigdor Miller that davening bekavana
can also be done out of habit!).

	When I first started davening from a siddur,  I found it to be a big
boost to kavana.  After a while.....I got into a groove,  as you say:  I
could actually *read*  from the page without thinking!  I therefore went
back to (sometimes) davening by heart with extra effort for kavana.
Nir'eh.

	The mishna says that one should not make his tefila "keva".  The most
apt explanation I heard for this is that it should not always be the
same.  Vary the method,  try different approaches;  at different times
you may be more successful than at others with the same technique.

	After all is said and done,  the Gemara says that one thing which a
person cannot escape on a daily basis is "iyun tefila" which can be
understood as lack of kavana.  The best efforts,  for most of us,  will
leave us with parts of davening for which we had kavana and others that
didn't quite make it.

	Forgive yourself....

(beautiful quote from, I think,  R' Nachman miBreslav:  a person needs to
be a "savlan gadol"  even with himself)

and try harder next time.

Gershon

It's more than sad. It's also widespread. Several other people on 
that list posted stories about being told that they would not "be 
comfortable" in one job or another IN ISRAEL because they are 
fruhm (I have a whole collection on my office computer now :-(

-- Carl

> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:50:02 -0800 (PST)
> From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: Religious Hiring Problems, yep. WAS: try try again
> 
> This is very sad!
> 
> HM
> 
> - --- "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> wrote:
> > I had a discussion off list with RHM last week about
> > why I was 
> > opposed to Israeli businesses being open on Shabbos.
> > I told RHM 
> > that I was opposed to it not out of any desire to
> > "coerce" chilonim 
> > into observing Shabbos, but out of fear that being
> > able to work on 
> > Shabbos would become a job qualification in Israel,
> > much as it was 
> > in many large law firms in which I worked in the US.
> > 
> > 
> > It turns out that we are much closer to that in
> > Israel than I ever 
> > thought. This is one of several postings on the
> > subject that 
> > appeared on tachlis ("practical questions and
> > answers about 
> > aliyah") today. Does this make anyone want to
> > reconsider their 
> > "religious coercion" arguments?

[Incident snipped - See V4 #284 for story]


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

The thread on this subject deals with the letter signed by some
prominent Israeli Rabbanim.  However, no one has chosen to post this
letter or a full description of its contents on this list.  Nor have I
found the letter posted elsewhere on the net.  The article posted from
the Yated Neeman merely refers to the letter, but does not quote it.
The flavor of that article is much different than the Israeli internet
articles which mention an alleged Haredi ban on the internet (at least
at home).  If someone would post the letter here it would considerably
enlighten the discussions on this topic.  The question of what the
Gerrer Rebbe has said on this issue is also relevant, and a reliable
quotation would be valuable.  The variant text of the letter issued by
the Edah Hacharedi bais din would also be of value.

Yitzchok Zlochower

Hi,
  Just a thought. Since one of the basic beliefs in judiasm is the fredom of
choice, you would think that every person should have the right (and the
obligation) to choose for himself right from wrong. There is no more harm in
the internet then there is every where else. What ever you can find on the
internet you can find in the city. There for to ban the internet is a act
that goes agains the idea of fredom of choice (since there are very good
things on the internet - like this list).

chaim turkel

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