Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 282

Wednesday, January 12 2000

• Re: Re[2]: Haredim and Internet
• Re: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking
• Spirituality
• Re: Avodah V4 #280
• Re[2]: Haredim and Internet
• Re[4]: Haredim and Internet
• Re[2]: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking
• Re: Shul attendance and talking
• Re[2]: Shul attendance and talking
• Re: Haredim and Internet
• Re: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking
• Re: Spirituality
• Re: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking
• Re: Spirituality
• Re[2]: Spirituality
• Re: Spirituality
• Re[2]: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking
• Re: Conservative/Reform/Orthodox/Whatever - Who cares?
• Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
• RE: Conservative/Reform/Orthodox/Whatever - Who cares?
• Re: Conservative/Reform/Orthodox/Whatever - Who cares?
• Re: YU is a Litvishe yeshiva in the mold of Volozhin (?) Curious objec

On Wed, Jan 12, 2000 at 06:42:07PM +0200, Akiva Atwood wrote:
: You cold just use NEOPLANET as your browser and create a Shiviti theme...

I think you just volunteered.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 12-Jan-00: Revi'i, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 98a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 12

On Tue, Jan 11, 2000 at 03:55:32PM -0800, Harry Maryles wrote:
: We should have respect, reverence and awe but not gothic silence.

Yes, frum shuls can't have "decorum" in that sense. Davening should be a
raw emotional experience, something that happens at whatever volume it
happens. Too much decorum and you've formalized the emotion out of it.

Kind of like a beis medrash. The cacaphony of everyone else learning adds to
the experience.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 12-Jan-00: Revi'i, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 98a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 12

Rabbi YGB is right in bringing to our attention the recent turn to
spirituality in religious circles in Israel.  The new spirituality is a
world wide phenomonon (new age, cults, Eastern religions).  In Reform and
Conservative circles it is in and it is beginning to take roots in
Orthodoxy.  In a materialistic world searching for meaning and spiritualty
is a positive development but one that can easily lead to a distortion of
religion. 
Contemporary Orthodox is dominated by the ethos of yeshivos but many do not
find spiritual nurishment in limud hatorah, including some who are
successful in their studies.  Many find halachic observance dry and formal
and are searching for warmth and spirituality.  Carlbachian minyanim are
appealing and there is talk about a neo-hassidut.
However there is significant risk in a subjective spirituality which
focuses on the individual and his feelings.  The essential difference from
other religions which defines Judaism, is a committment to an objective
system of behavior (halacha) which governs our actions. Unbridled
spirituality has antinomian tendencies, and unchecked feelings can lead to
all kinds of distortions and increase vulnerability to Gurus.
The delicate balance between intellect and emotion that exists in a
halachic system which requires objective behavior standards as a basis for
religious experience gets lost in a frenzy of feeling inspired and spiritual.
Orthodox women who are looking for expression through creating new rituals
are particularly vulnerable.  The religious Zionist community that saw
Messianic potential in the land of Israel movement has elements who feeling
discouraged are escaping to an extremely individualistic vague spirituality.
The famous Ramban on Kedoshim tihiyu builds the expression of kedusha in
the realm of the permissable on a foundation of observance of halachic
norms. The eclectic mix captured in the word Habbakukk (Chabad, Breslove,
Kook and Carlebach) which attracts many otherwise disaffecred, lacks a
consistent perspective and the positive vibrations can lead to a form of
self-worship which can border on idolatry.
How to respond to legitamite religious needs that are not being met and yet
remain within our tradition is much more difficult today then it was when
Hassidut started. 
Sincerely,
Yosef Blau   

>About a month and a half 
>ago I was at an Orthodox(not MO) shul on Shabbos and the gabai at the foot
of 
>the bimah was very openly discussing- during the haftarah if I recall 
>correctly- some business venture, or stock tip, with one or two other 
>people.Someone came over and complained,and he said half -jokingly, half 
>- -seriously-and in Yidddish no less- that it's a shul, not a cemetery. 
>A cavalier attitude to talking in shul very easily leads to this kind of 
>situation.Besides constituting sicah beteilah in shul and disturbing others' 
>concentration on the haftarah or whatever other part of davening is
involved, 
>it was also a very public violation of dabeir davar.

It's a chillul haShem in another manner . . . it plays into the stereotype
that observant Jews are machmir about ritual, but lax in other areas,
particularly person-to-person mitzvot.  What makes it such that the same
person who would never ever touch a light switch on shabbos would talk
business at the bima on shabbos?  What does that tell our less observant
brethren?

-- Eric

Please expand on HOW?

Maybe we can pop up an ad for Aisdas Society! <smile>

Rich Wolpoe 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


You needn't do an ISP, you can do it using the same technology as those firms 
that pay you to keep their ad window up. However, as KosherNet is history, 
there's no hasagas gevul problem with your proposal.

-mi

I'm game to put down some $$$$




______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Haredim and Internet 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/12/2000 11:21 AM


richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:



> Let's  created a kosher ISP, that flashed little diveri torah or reminders suc
h 
> as shovisi or other mnemonics, that might keep a person focused and prevent hi
m 
> from straying into questionable web-sites.  If the problem is getting lost in 
> the web, then the solution is a guidance system that keeps us from getting 
> lost.


This is easily do-able. Know where I can find investors?

Really. I mean it.

You're right. It would take real huzpah to access inappropriate sites with 
a pop-up Shiviti window.


---sam

w/o discounting your experiences...

Being in a shul like KAJ/Breuer's wherein several hundred people are singing in 
unison (and mostly on key) can be a very rousing experience.

One of the most moving expiernces for me is when they sing l'Dovoid boruch after
Shabbos and the place was ringing wiht hundreds of voices - berav am hadras 
melech...

Rich wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking 

Yes, frum shuls can't have "decorum" in that sense. Davening should be a 
raw emotional experience, something that happens at whatever volume it 
happens. Too much decorum and you've formalized the emotion out of it.

Kind of like a beis medrash. The cacaphony of everyone else learning adds to 
the experience.

-mi

I think people are missing the point -- which IMHO is not about respect 
for Hashem (which *is* a personal matter), but respect for *other 
people.*  If you're comfortable conversing about your stock trades during 
the Torah leyning, that's fine for you, but what about the effort and 
kedusha of the person who's doing the leyning?  What about the desires of 
the people who actually want to *hear* the leyning?  And -- here's a 
woman's concern -- how can we possibly teach our children, who are also in 
shul, *respect for other people,* if their own fathers show such 
disrespect?  And then excuse it with what sounds like self-serving 
rationalizations, which any smart kid can spot a mile away?  Come on, guys!

<frustrated former female shul-attender's rant-mode off>

BTW, on a brief visit to Atlanta I attended one Orthodox shul (not MO) 
whose services seemed to combine the best of both worlds).  This was a 
*huge* shul, packed full for Shabbos services.  The kavana was 
wonderful.  *Everybody* was singing full voice, at the appropriate times, 
and then praying at their own rate; there was *no* distracting extraneous 
talking (what conversations there were, were quiet, and drowned out by the 
davening, instead of the other way around), and most important, there was 
something useful and helpful for the kids (or at least the boys) to do -- 
stand in the front of the shul, right up next to the two rows of 
distinguished Ravs, to hold up a placard with the current page number, so 
that the whole congregation could follow the service, a different kid with 
each turn of the page.  This is a function which is useful and important, 
which was an obvious source of pride and pleasure to the children -- and it 
involved them directly in the conduct of the services.   I was very 
impressed with this simple and effective way of focusing the boys' 
attention where it ought to be, in a way that was pleasurable to them, and 
helpful to everybody.  Whether because of this, or for some other reason, 
the girls too seemed to understand that they were as included in these 
services as their mothers were, and they either davened, watched and 
listened, or went elsewhere to play.  It was one of my best Shabbos shul 
experiences ever.

Cynthia
------------------------------------------------------
Meru Foundation   http://www.meru.org   meru1@well.com

So how can we replicate this experience into other shuls?

How Can  make our davening more inspiring? Reduce disctractions?  This is MORE 
than decorum which might be seen as merely an absence of rude talking.

This is more about getting the entire kehillo focused and on the same page...

This is about group dynamics...

In addtion to the KAJ experience I have attended Hebrew Insitute of Riverdale 
for kabbolo shabbos.  They often do the Carlebach davening and there would beere
hundreds of people singing along and then dancing in the aisles during lecho 
dodi.  Now while dancing in the aisle is not my style <rhyme>  neverthless it 
was a very powerful experience to behold when hundreds of people are into it 
intensely!  Ruach a capella (what a mechaye  w/o a loud band banging away 
,smile>)

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Shul attendance and talking 

BTW, on a brief visit to Atlanta I attended one Orthodox shul (not MO) 
whose services seemed to combine the best of both worlds).  This was a 
*huge* shul, packed full for Shabbos services.  The kavana was 
wonderful.  *Everybody* was singing full voice, at the appropriate times, 
and then praying at their own rate; there was *no* distracting extraneous 
talking (what conversations there were, were quiet, and drowned out by the 
davening, instead of the other way around), and most important, there was 
something useful and helpful for the kids (or at least the boys) to do -- 

<snip>

Cynthia
------------------------------------------------------ 
Meru Foundation   http://www.meru.org   meru1@well.com

In a message dated 1/12/00 8:30:37 AM US Central Standard Time, 
shlomog@mehish.co.il writes:

<< And presumably if the Gedolim were younger or Sephardic or living
 in chu"l their opposition to Internet would be a good idea? >>

I understand that the Sephardim are not taught to see the Internet as quite 
the dire Western threat that the Israeli Ashkenazi do. Perhaps its because 
over the centuries the Sephardim have established a healthier and more 
constructive distance from Western civilization. 

As you correctly infer, I believe that if the Israeli Ashkenazi religious 
elite were younger and living in golus, they'd have a more flexible attitude 
toward the Internet. Maybe they'd be able to put the Internet into a more 
realistic context. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what they think. The forces 
of the 21st century will be terrific. The rabbis' rather macabre isolationism 
doesn't stand a chance.

David Finch

On Wed, Jan 12, 2000 at 12:24:43PM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
: w/o discounting your experiences...
: 
: Being in a shul like KAJ/Breuer's wherein several hundred people are singing
: in unison (and mostly on key) can be a very rousing experience.

Group singining is a major part of a Carlebach minyan too, no one would call
that formalized decorum.

I'm talking about expecting things like pesukei dizimra to be inaudible to
others.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 12-Jan-00: Revi'i, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 98a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 12

well said

In a message dated 1/12/00 11:08:01 AM US Central Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< Davening should be a raw emotional experience, something that happens at 
whatever volume it happens. Too much decorum and you've formalized the 
emotion out of it. >>

Davening, yes. Idle social gossip, stock tips, arguments over who's going to 
be the NBA's MVP -- no. Most complaints about "talking in shul" relate to the 
latter, I think. I've never heard of anyone whining about loud, freewheeling 
davening, except when it comes from an attention-seeking show-off.

David Finch

On Wed, Jan 12, 2000 at 12:06:46PM -0500, Rabbi Josef Blau wrote:
: However there is significant risk in a subjective spirituality which
: focuses on the individual and his feelings.  The essential difference from
: other religions which defines Judaism, is a committment to an objective
: system of behavior (halacha) which governs our actions.

There's the famous Ramban on the gifts of the nesi'im. He explains that each
nasi and his gift are listed separately even though they each gave the same
thing -- because each gave it with a different kavanah. (It's beautiful how
he ties the same gift to that particular shevet. Worth a look even if it
isn't Chanukah.)

I'd like to see a very nomian spirituality. One based on tying kavanah to the
ma'asei mitzvah, and keeping other acts to the role of purpura shel Torah.
Which was the intent behind naming this organization AishDas. To quote myself
in the opening of the charter:

   "Miymino AishDas lamo." AishDas is read from the Torah as two words.
   Aish, the fire of faith, a soul aflame, striving for fulfillment, seeking
   its creator. Das, ritual, the precision of halachic law, understanding
   and grasping the details of the mission for which Hashem chose us. It is
   written as a single word, unique in Tanach, untranslatable. AishDas is the
   synthesis of the fire and the law, a whole that is greater than its parts.

   To burn with AishDas means to learn from and grow with the mitzvos. To
   be observant not merely out of habit or upbringing, but to connect with
   the deed on intellectual and emotional levels.

   In order to reach this level, Torah must become the whole life. It is
   not enough to pursue the depths of the soul to reach the fire within.
   Das must not be limited to the synagogue or the charity box, but an entire
   lifestyle. Halachah defines our primary relationships -- with our fellow
   man, with Hashem, and with ourselves.

   This is the goal of The AishDas Society: to assist one another and create
   societal tools that will teach the fundamentals of Torah, Avodah, and
   Gemillus Chassadim, and how these basic principles can develop hislahavus,
   inner spiritual feeling.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 12-Jan-00: Revi'i, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 98a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 12

Naaseh - the Action aspect of of Mitzvos.
Nishma - the experiencing of those actions both intelletually/analytically as 
well as emotionally!

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Spirituality 


I'd like to see a very nomian spirituality. One based on tying kavanah to the 
ma'asei mitzvah, and keeping other acts to the role of purpura shel Torah. 
Which was the intent behind naming this organization AishDas. To quote myself 
in the opening of the charter:

   "Miymino AishDas lamo." AishDas is read from the Torah as two words. 
   Aish, the fire of faith, a soul aflame, striving for fulfillment, seeking 
   its creator. Das, ritual, the precision of halachic law, understanding 
   and grasping the details of the mission for which Hashem chose us. It is
   written as a single word, unique in Tanach, untranslatable. AishDas is the 
   synthesis of the fire and the law, a whole that is greater than its parts.

   To burn with AishDas means to learn from and grow with the mitzvos. To 
   be observant not merely out of habit or upbringing, but to connect with 
   the deed on intellectual and emotional levels.

   In order to reach this level, Torah must become the whole life. It is 
   not enough to pursue the depths of the soul to reach the fire within.
   Das must not be limited to the synagogue or the charity box, but an entire 
   lifestyle. Halachah defines our primary relationships -- with our fellow 
   man, with Hashem, and with ourselves.

   This is the goal of The AishDas Society: to assist one another and create 
   societal tools that will teach the fundamentals of Torah, Avodah, and 
   Gemillus Chassadim, and how these basic principles can develop hislahavus, 
   inner spiritual feeling.

-mi

In a message dated 1/12/00 12:55:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

> There's the famous Ramban on the gifts of the nesi'im. He explains that each
>  nasi and his gift are listed separately even though they each gave the same
>  thing -- because each gave it with a different kavanah. (It's beautiful how
>  he ties the same gift to that particular shevet. Worth a look even if it
>  isn't Chanukah.)
>  
The Mokor is the Medrash Rabboh Al Asar.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

Idle social gossip during davening - is that idle (idol) worship?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking 


Davening, yes. Idle social gossip, stock tips, arguments over who's going to 
be the NBA's MVP -- no. Most complaints about "talking in shul" relate to the 
latter, I think. I've never heard of anyone whining about loud, freewheeling 
davening, except when it comes from an attention-seeking show-off.

David Finch

I wrote <<< this is a good example of the harm that can come from the
"orthodox" label. I have too often seen cases where "orthodox conversion"
means tevilah but not much in the way of accepting mitzvos. >>>

And Mrs. Gila Atwood responded <<< This is indeed true in some cases. How do
you suggest we should go about validating "Orthodox" conversions?
Incidentally, I know someone who converted through the Israeli Rabbinate. At
the ba'alas tshuva school she attended she was advised to go through a giur
with a private beis din, but without a bracha on the tevila. Effectively she
upgraded her 'hechsher' from "Rabbinate" to "Agudah"  :-)  The school saw
she was sincere and knew that a Mattersdorf Beis Din would be better for her
in terms of shidduchim-  this proved to be correct. >>>

Her story seems to be a practical example of how I feel on many of these
sort of issues. Namely, the reality (for better or for worse) is a lack of
unanimity in the "Orthodox" community, which leads to differing standards
for each sub-community.

It doesn't matter what the issue is: Is a particular get valid? Is a
particular giyur valid? Is this person a mamzer? Is that person's claim to
Jewish ancestry believable? Is the other person's claim to NON-Jewish
ancestry believable?

Mrs. Atwood asks my suggestion on how to "validate" a conversion, and my
response is that her very story proves such validation to be categorically
impossible. You can't satisfy everyone. I often wonder why so much political
energy is invested in how the Israeli government defines "Jew", when in
actual practice, their definitions are not accepted anyway. For example,
recent posters have given examples of cases where the Interior registers a
person as Jewish, but the Rabbinate refuses to marry the person.

It seems that we are already living in a situation where relatively few
people will have their yichus unquestioned. Unless one is from a famous
family, (and maybe even then,) any responsible rav - of any stripe - will
conduct at least a minimal inquiry into the family history. I do realize
that the situation is getting progressively worse, but I believe we are well
past the point where the typical person can take anything for granted.

I have been looking for a way to explain why I have stayed out of the
"Registry" debate, and this is it. As important as the Registry might be, I
believe it absurd to consider that it can acheive the universal acceptance
it needs. It could become a source of information which would lead to
further inquiries, but would not answer any questions in and of itself.
Anyone who might manage to set up a registry which all groups would have
confidence in, would immediately --- and deservedly --- be proclaimed as the
Moshiach.

Akiva Miller

--- Allen Baruch <Abaruch@SINAI-BALT.COM> wrote:

> 
> Harry Maryles wrote
> ""In Lita zennen mir nit geven makpid" (In Lithuania
> we weren't 
> Makpid)  "
> 
> In Lita who came to the seudah? I doubt it was more
> than family 
> and a few close friends. And I would agree that if I
> had my family 
> over for a meal that I would not ask them to sit
> separately. But 
> nowadays a simcha oftentimes is a huge social
> occasion. Is it OK
> to have a mixed seating social event? Is it proper
> for men and women 
> to socialize together?

The above statement made by R. Rogov to his Talmid, 
R. Giffin was given in response to a question R.
Giffin asked about his own impending wedding, which
took place in the 1960's, in Chicago and was pretty
well attended, certainly more than a few friends and
family. It was, indeed, a huge social occasion. 

His wedding had mixed seating. When R. Zvi Hirsch
Meisels, ZTL, a Posek of some renoun and a Satmar
oriented Chasidic Rebbe, put pressure on him to have
seperate seating, R. Giffin asked this Shaila to R.
Rogov, his Rebbe at the time and received the above
response.

As to your question, "Is it proper for men and women
to socialize together?"... What's the problem? As long
as there are no Isurei Ervah violations or Tznius
violations.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

> Unless one is from a famous
> family, (and maybe even then,) any responsible rav - of any
>

FYI, a while back there was a case in Mea Sharim (Batei Ungarin) with one of
the more well-known families, where it turned out they were not Jewish (and
hadn't been for a few generations) due to an improper conversion.

Akiva




A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

--- "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
wrote:

> Incidentally, I know someone who converted through
> the Israeli Rabbinate.
> At the ba'alas tshuva school she attended she was
> advised to go through a
> giur with a private beis din, but without a bracha
> on the tevila.
> Effectively she upgraded her 'hechsher' from
> "Rabbinate" to "Agudah"  :-)
> The school saw she was sincere and knew that a
> Mattersdorf Beis Din would be
> better for her in terms of shidduchim-  this proved
> to be correct.

Am I the only one who finds this troubling? 

What's next? Perhaps the Eida HaCharedis needs to have
their own "Hechser Tvilah"! 

Or is this only a Shiddach thing? Which in and of
itself is pretty disgusting.

Isn't it true that Rabbanut conversions are accepted
by Agudah et al?  Isn't this what the fight about
conversion is all about... to leave conversions only
in the hands of the Rabbanut so that we can prevent C
and R conversions? Aren't we all supposed to be on the
same side on this thing?

HM


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

Just a quick comment on R. michael frankel's exposition of the origins of YU 
as anti-mussar.
    It should be noted that before his move to Chicago, R. Aaron Soleveitchik 
gave a mussar shiur once a week at YU (at least when I was ther during the 
late 60's, 70's)
which was so popular that the number of talmidim attempting to attend spilled 
out of the largest room available into the hallways. 
    David I. Cohen

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]