Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 269

Monday, January 10 2000

• Re: Silver Atarot
• Baseball Halachah #1--Alternative to Eli Clark
• RE: Prayers of Anguished woman
• Re: Conservatives
• New Modern Orthodox Rabbinical School
• Yichus data base
• atoros
• Re: Conservatives
• R. Eliyashiv
• techelet
• atarah
• Re: atarah
• Re: Avodah V4 #255
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: techelet
• Re: techelet
• Kavana BeTfilah and Shelo Asani Isha
• RE: Avodah V4 #263
• Re[2]: Fwd (micha@aishdas.org): Re: Wearing a tallis gadol i
• Re[2]: Fwd (micha@aishdas.org): Re: Wearing a tallis gadol i
• Re[2]: Wearing a tallis gadol in public on Shabbos

R. Moshe DovBer Rivkin, "Ashkavta DiRebi", ff. 17 discusses the Chabad
custom of not wearing an Atarah on a Talis Gadol; he notes that Chasidei
Chabad ARE Makpid to have their Tzitzis in front of them (evidently based
on the SheLaH, cited in Magen Avraham 8); the Levush cites the issue of
an Atarah for the head making the Talis a garment for the head (and not
the body) rendering it exempt from Tzitzis and writes that the custom in
the lands of Yishmael NOT to have ANY Atarah is a Minhag Yafeh [so a
white-on-white Talit with an Atarah would be anomalous if not oxymoronic
. . . ]; anecdotally he cites a tradition that when the Alter Rebbe was
arrested all of his Chasidim removed their silver Atarot to collect funds
for him [the document of the Takanah is in Heilman's "Beis Rebbi"]; he
conjectures that they never put them back on since.

Nachman Levine
Nachman and Hindy Levine
NachmanL@Juno.com

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I thank everybody (Mechy, Eli, Michael) for their suggestions

I was actually thinking of something more serious but not as
serious as Eli's posting.


The first halacha has to do with Murder (Rambam chapter 2).

It turns out that Murder does not require INTENT TO KILL but
rather INTENT TO COMMIT A LETHAL ACTION.


So the Rambam is very clear that if 2 people warned a pitcher
of a hardball that he might kill somebody and he responded "I 
know but it is a negligible risk of the game" and then threw
and killed someone he would be liable to a death penalty (His
defense that he intended to play ball and not to kill is irrelevant
since his intended action (of throwing the ball) was lethal


If some people think I have read too much into this halachah let me
know. There are still two other halachas left

By the way to answer Eli, I wrote an article TOWARDS A DEFIINTION OF
TORAH (AOJS,1976) (Reprints available if you give me your snail address)
where I suggested that instead of "sanctifying ones life" one can 
alternatively "expand the domain of Torah to include new activities"

In this example a person who learns Nezikin while playing Baseball is
not doing anything secular (And from the Yeshiva boys I spoke to the
halachoth are real and not known)

...Try guessing on serious halachah number 2

Russell
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Richard Walpoe writes
>>>>>>>
<snip>.

Al kol panim, let's look at some of the things the Malbim does not 
say.

1. He discusses neither tenants nor agunos.
2. He assumes that the employee whose salary has been withheld will call
out. 
But he does not say that employee will call out for revenge against his 
employer. <snip>
-- Carl
>>

And since she has a CHOICE of how to call out, why not take the "win win"
choice
and pray for her own relief and NOT for the death of her opressor?

Using this "win-win", she is invoking Hashem's Rachmonus and not His din.

Shouldn't we always encourage invoking Hashems' rachmonus on us rather
than His 
din upon others?  

Rich Wolpoe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I clearly stated that
	>I agree with Rich/Carl IN THE BEGINNING (LCHATCHILAH) that she should
	>be advised to seek human intervention, just pray for her relief etc

	>HOWEVER (and this is has not being answered yet) if her anguish is 
	>so great (after trying other methods) that she has symptons of eg
	>depression, withdrawal etc then we SHOULD advocate her praying ON
	>THEM to use the Biblical term

Richard should also note that the Biblical phrase does not say
	>lest she PRAY
but the Biblical phrase says
	>lest (s)he PRAY **ON** them

This is the same question I asked Carl (who conceded that PRAY ON
probably
does mean something but he is not yet sure what). So I ask Richard also
(and
anyone else) what the phrase PRAY ON means. Thruought tnach it is used
for
praying AGAINST/ON somebody.

To summarize my whole position I am **only** talking about the case where
the woman is suffering severely and has withdrawal symptoms etc. In such
a case I see a clear Heter to pray on her anguisher. 

The numerous statements (some cited form the Gmarrah) to the contrary are
not being disputed by me since they apply to MOST OTHER SITUATIONS. 


I perhaps could make this clearer by rephrasing the issue as 
	>Do we have here a heter for certain types of abnormal prayer 
	>when a person is so emotionally anguished that it has 
	>adversely affected their personality (This is what is being
	>discussed)

Hope this clarifies everything

Russell
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On Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 06:09:29PM -0500, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
> On the other hand, I've meet a number of recent JTS graduates who are 
> extremely sharp academically, and who are familiar with more Orthodox 
> esoterica than you'd think. I don't know where they picked it up -- maybe 
> from other Jews. [..] They believe in 
> halacha, and have learned to see the world through halacha, [..]
> It might be useful to focus on the core of yiddishkeit around which many 
> Conservative rabbis and laymen alike have tried to shape their lives, instead 
> of emphasizing all the ways they fall short. That way one might be able to 
> show them the light, instead of making them feel like self-deluded impostors.

is this realistic?  
the fact that there are some who would be on the left wing of o if that 
weren't such an insecure place to be, and so move to c instead, seems to
point to a divergence.  at the end of the day, even (especially?) looking 
within o, what sticks out in one's mind is the difference.  

it will be interesting to see how r weiss's yeshiva will affect this
dynamic, if at all.  

janet

> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 15:37:37 -0500
> From: j e rosenbaum <jerosenb@hcs.harvard.edu>
> Subject: Re: New Modern Orthodox Rabbinical School
	> 
<<On Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 12:59:49AM -0500, Gershon Dubin wrote:
 	What is the purpose of this new school?
> 
> i get the sense that it will be similar in outlook to the hebrew
> institute of riverdale.  it would be interesting if the traditional
> conservatives joined somehow, though i've not heard that they would 
> take any part.>>

	I did not ask its orientation;  I asked its purpose.

Gershon

> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:13:57 -0500
> From: "S Klagsbrun" <S.Klagsbrun@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> Subject: Re: Yichus Data Base

<<The opinion of the leading rabbinical authority in Anglo - Jewish
history concerning the proposed database should not be hard to
extrapolate from this incident.>>

	I would be very hesitant to put words into Rav Moshe's mouth.  Each
situation was treated by him on an individual basis and generalizations
on his psokim in dvorim ha'omdim berumo shel olam are fraught with
danger.  For this reason,  ein lecha elah shofet shebeyamecha.

<<Let us not overlook the fact that most of our ancestors lived for
hundreds of years in societies where the 'first rights' of the local lord
was taken for granted, v'hamaivin yavin.>>

	That this was the gezera is true;  I don't know that it existed for
hundreds of years.  Also,  it was not uniformly carried out,  see Gemara
beginning of Kesubos.

Gershon

> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:15:20 -0800 (PST)
> From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #265

<<Far be it from me to speak for Lubavitch but I believe that the reason
they correctly have no Atoros whatsoever is because of the the idea of
not having an "up" or "down" side to the Beged.  i. e. you should be able
to wear the beged with either end up.  I am reletively certain that
that's the correct psak in theSA, but, LeHefech, for some reason, Ataros
of the cloth kind are universally worn by all denominations except
Lubavitch.>>

	I don't know what basis you have for saying that not having an atoro is
correct.  The Magen Avraham brought by the Baer Hetev and Mishna Brura
says,  beshem the Shaloh, that you should have an atoro.  (One of the
nice things about this list is that you are forced to look up things you
thought you remembered.)

	The purpose is to keep the same tzizis in the same positions,  because
keresh shezocho bedarom,  etc.  The Ari z"l was not makpid on this. 
Therefore,  it appears that having one is correct,  unless one follows
the Ari z"l which, I believe, Lubavitch does.
	
	My question on Lubavitch was that the Ari z"l was NOT MAKPID on this, 
meaning he did not consider it important but it is certainly OK if you do
have such an atoro.   Lubavitch has taken this to mean he was MAKPID NOT
to have it this way.  This appears IMHO to be a distortion of the Ari
z"l's position.

<<Interestingly,  whenever I am the "Shatz" at Bnei
> Ruven (the main  Chabad Shul here) and ask for a Talis
> they give me one of the Shul's which of course, has no
> Atarah.  So I figure... I can put it on without regard
> to which end is up.  Apparently, there IS an "end up".
> I once put it on the "wrong way" and someone chided me
> for putting it on upside down.  How was I supposed to
> know? He told me to look on the inside of the tallis
> and find the lining which is used for purposes of
> putting the talis on the head.  So, they do have an
> "up" end after all.>>

	I thought you could tell by looking which side was sweated up <g>.  You
have made my kasha stronger;  obviously in practice they do follow the
M"A but use a lining on the inside instead of the outside.

Gershon

Micha, Harry Weiss, Jonathan Baker, Shoshana Boublil and I are active
participants on the USENET group soc.culture.jewish. I have been there
for over 12 years. The past 4 years have been a eye-opener vis a vis the
Conservative movement. I had foolishly thought that the only thing that
separates C from Orthodoxy was their mixed seating and driving on shabbat.
Until a C clergyman and a self-proclaimed C spokesperson both joined
the list and started posting the beliefs of the C movement.

I was stunned.

I learned that they beleive that:
1) Ezra wrote the Torah from accumulated sources
2) Yetziat Mitzraim *never* happened; as the clergyperson (tm) wrote,
   "it's all aggaditah" [I kid you not]

I found out how they disingenuously distort or misquote texts to fit an
agenda (e.g the infamous Tshuvat haREMA purported to permit stam yeinam.
Upon reading this tshuva, virtually EVERY line stated how chas vechalila
what he was writing wasn't to be taken as a heter for stam yeinam. Yet
some C clergyperson used the text to claim how stam yeinam was permitted).
BTW I actually had the tshuva optically scanned and posted on someone's
website to show the chicanery of these people.

As Micha indicated, I had prepared some exams in gemara and in hilchot shabbat
and hilchot kashrut for our Regents College BA (see: www.jewishbible.org
under "American college degree") based on course syllabi from Touro, YU and
Stern College. In August I had given these relatively simple, basic exams
to 4 Conservative rabbis in Jerusalem. The only reason they received grades
hovering around 10/100 instead of zero for both halacha exams was because
the syllabus required adding 7-8 questions that even my 8 year nephew
would know.

And we're not talking about anything complicated on taarovot (e.g. shitot
of Taz, Shach, Pri Chadash, Pri Megadim, Meharshal on a topic); we're talking
about the most basic elementary cognitive level: that of RECOGNIZING the
term. And they still failed.

TALMUD: after studying their catalog  www.jtsa.edu and checking the course
descriptions, it is obvious that what they do in their senior year of
rabbinical school is on the level of what we did in 10th grade in yeshiva
high school.

Josh

> 
> For the record, one of Rav Elyashiv's meshamshim is an American, 
> and another is a South African. Admittedly, neither of them is the 
> one who makes the appointments, but I know that I have gotten in 
> to see Rav Elyashiv on two occasions (both for brachos for my 
> son), so obviously it is not THAT hard to get in to see him. 
> 
While it mat not be THAT hard it is nevertheless very hard to see
R. Eliyashiv. He is not as available as other poskim were.
I go go to a shiur of R. Silberstein who is a son-in-law and constantly
hear stories about how careful he is with each question and how long
he can stay on a visit. It is clear that if one doesn't understand a
answer you work it out later, you don't ask a second time.

In most cases questions are presented to R. Eliyashiv by his meshamshim
rather than hearing the question directly from the questioneer.
I have seen or heard of several teshuvot recently of R. Eliyashiv which
seem to me to indicate that that he did not understand the question.
This is what happens when many questions are presented by the meshamshim
rather than by personal meeting.

Eli Turkel

> - -mi
> 
> It also makes my talis hard to lose. Who else has a white-on-white talis
> with techeiles tied lefi the Radziner and an atarah to boot? <grin>
> 
Are the techelet Radziner or only the way if tying?
I personally prefer the Gra.

Why would anyone today use the techelet of Radzin after research has shown
that its color comes from the dyes added and not from the chilazon?

Eli Turkel

> 
> I personally dislike them because in some shuls they seem to generate a 
> competition of who can afford a bigger and more expensive atara.  A 
> purpose of wearing a Talis and tzitis is to make us think of Hashem and 
> His Mitzvot and not to show off one's wealth.
> 
I where an atarah croucheted (sp?) by my wife, is that better?

Eli Turkel

In a message dated 1/10/00 8:23:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
turkel@math.tau.ac.il writes:

<< urkel@math.tau.ac.il  >>

Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> wrote:
>and there are a limited number of C and R rabbis who
>actually have certification to conduct weddings here (although I
>think in the latter case the couple would still need the normal
>license through the Rabbanut).

I was not aware of this.  Can you provide details?

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
<daniel@cfd.ame.arizona.edu>
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ

RYGB wrote:
> David Finch wrote:
>> Is the registry halachically required, or just a real good idea?
>
> If R' Elyashiv feels it may be required, then it is required.

Kudos to RYGB for defending emunas chachamim, but I think this thread
has been sidetracked into a discussion of the correct semantics for
discussing this type of announcement.  I assume that RYGB's comment
above is a typo, if R' Elyashiv feels it _may be_ required, then it "may
be required," not it "is" required.

With all due respect to Yated, I would feel a whole lot better if I had
independent confirmation on what R' Elyashiv actually holds on this
issue.  (Especially what he means by "may" if he indeed made the comment
in that form.)

One thing that occurs to me is that there is a vast difference between
using presence on a list as prook of kashrus, and using absence on from
a list as chezkas posul.  The former is a useful aid in a time when
records are becoming confused.  The latter is a very dangerous and
devisive method thatwill inevitably cause difficulty for kosher Jews and
exclude some kosher individuals from the klal.  My fear would be that an
attempt to institute the former might quickly degenerate into the
latter.

One thing that I could use clarification on (perhaps some of our
resident congregational Rabbis could help here) is la'maseh how is this
handled today vis a vis BTs?  What info does a Rav actually ask for?
More importantly, there must be many people today who can't bring any
documentation.  What is done if someone traces themselves to a giyores
(or child of a second marrige) where the documentation of the conversion
(or the get) is not available, the comunity where it happened no longer
exists, and the children of the giyores (or second marrige) left
frumkeit?  I would think that this is a relatively common senario.  Do
we have a chazakah that gerius and gitten were k'halacha in pre-war
Europe?  Can we rely on the knowledge that they principles were (at
least) nominally frum to create such a chazakah?

If I understood the answer to these questions, I think I could better
understand exactly the usefullness of such a registry.

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
<daniel@cfd.ame.arizona.edu>
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ

On Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 03:21:44PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Are the techelet Radziner or only the way if tying?

Only the way of tying. My reason is twofold:

1- While I think he was the victim of deception by his chemist, he is still
   the most authoritative posek to present a halachah lima'aseh ruling for
   the public on how to tie tzitzis with chulyos.

2- RSRH (Collected Writings III) shows how the Rambam's shitah dovetails very
   well with RSRH's ta'am hamitzvah. The Radziner's shitah is his opinion of
   the Rambam's p'sak. The knots the Rambam was talking about is orthogonal
   to the 5 double knots we make to accomodate the medrash. On this first part,
   he is agreeing with the Ba'al haTanya. First and last winding are white,
   and only one of 8 strings are techeiles.

: I personally prefer the Gra.

Which is how my father's are tied.

: Why would anyone today use the techelet of Radzin after research has shown
: that its color comes from the dyes added and not from the chilazon?

I can't argue this one very well, as I wouldn't. However, the color comes from
the nitrogen in the original fish combined with the other chemicals. This means
that it *does* use the proposed chilazon. The problem is that the same process
would extract the nitrogen and make a dye out of nearly any other chemical --
not just a single kaleh ilan.

See http://israelvisit.co.il/beged-ivri/techelet/misnagid.htm for an
anti-murex polemic. He is even-handed enough to provide a link to Amutat
P'til Techelet http://tekhelet.co.il (the murex trunculus people, our chaver
Saul Guberman is given by the web site as their person to contact in the US)
on the page. Off of http://israelvisit.co.il/beged-ivri/ are a number of links
about the Radziner, including a complete translation of Sefunei Temunei Chol.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 10-Jan-00: Levi, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 97a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

----- Original Message ----- > : Why would anyone today use the techelet of
Radzin after research has shown
> : that its color comes from the dyes added and not from the chilazon?
>
> I can't argue this one very well, as I wouldn't. However, the color comes
from
> the nitrogen in the original fish combined with the other chemicals. This
means
> that it *does* use the proposed chilazon. The problem is that the same
process
> would extract the nitrogen and make a dye out of nearly any other
chemical --
> not just a single kaleh ilan.
>

Because they are Chassidim. Chassidim do not always do things because they
are right, but because the Rebbes did them and emulating the Rebbes is a
path to kedusha. They often cite, in Lubavitch, for example, the Gemara in
Sukkah by Hadas Shoteh of "Ho'il v'nafak me'puma d'Rav."

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

--- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

> 
> The number of people who are nichshol (which, I
> think you'd agree is at least
> close to rov of O) argues in favor of the idea that
> daily prayer of a fixed
> texts tends to degerate into mindless rote.
> 
> This is 180deg from the stated purpose, and yet what
> many of us see lima'aseh.


I agree. This is the unfortunate nature of repetitive
prayer that ultimately becomes rote. Only recently,
within the last couple of years have I been trying to
concentrate on the peirush Hamilos of the first part
of Shmoneh Esreh (SE), now realizing that I may not
even be Yotze tfilah without such Kavanah.  For years
my mind would automaticly wander as I began to say the
Amidah  by rote. Trying to have Kavanah on the same
words 3 times a day is very difficult, at least it is
for me. I once heard R. Zucker, Rosh Kollel of the
CKK, say that one Bal HaBos told him that he "travels
around the world 3 times a day"... when he davens
Shmone Esreh.  I wonder if anyone else on this list
has the same difficulty as me.  Or... is it just ME!  

What about the women on the list?  Whenever I observe
my daughters davening SE, it seems they have
tremendous Kavanah.  But when I observe men, usually
it is only the Kle Kodesh that seem to have this type
of Kavana.  If women DO have more kavanah when they
Daven,  Why is that so?  Is it because they are Aino
Metzuveh VeOseh? And Why would that be a reason? Is
there another reason?  Are Women more spiritual
beings? Are they a more perfect creation of G-d's..
therefore not requiring Mitzvos Aseh She HaZman Grama?
Doesn't this put them in category with a Shotah as
they are also patur in Mitzvos, therefore, even more
perfect in the eyes as G-d? Is it better to be more
perfect?  If this is why we say Shelo Asani Isha,
because it is better to be less perfect and to require
more mitzvos to acheive perfection? Should women be
upset that they are more perfect?

I've been grappling with these issues as far back as I
can remember and I have yet to find answers that
satisfy me.

HM


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	I have seen meforshim discuss your question. The answer given is
that the fact that Eisav wanted to jump out of his mother's womb to attend
church doesn't mean that he was predestined to become an idol worshipper.
Rather, what it shows is that he had a nitiyah toward avodah zarah. However,
if he had been able to channel his nitiyos in the right direction, than he
would have become an equal partner with Yaakov in building klal yisroel.

> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:49:38 -0500
> From: moti silberstein <moti2@juno.com>
> Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #258
> 
> Did he   not want to jump out of his mother stomach to go to church.Did
> he not try to kill yakkov and tr y to close rachels womb,so this is not
> so pshat how he can channel himself to be like david 
> 
> 

Is it R. Aaron's shito to be chocheish for view of a Meiuta?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Fwd (micha@aishdas.org): Re: Wearing a tallis gadol in p
Otherwise there would be a D'Oraiso Violation of 
Shabbos. It seems to me that even if one does not 
subscribe to the view that T'cheles is MeAkev (which I 
believe is almost the universal view), it would be 
prudent to be choshesh for this view.

HM
__________________________________________________ 

Believe it. This Brisker shito flies in the fact of a Stam Mishnoh...

That's one of the reaons that prompted me to reject the halacho lemaaseh 
implications of a lot of brisker Torah.  I felt I oculd not deny the insights 
but I refused to uproot established practices based upon theory - no matter how 
much illuyishketi is behind it.

rich wolpoe 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Fwd (micha@aishdas.org): Re: Wearing a tallis gadol in p
<snip>

But back to the point, a stam mishnah and the Rambam among others, take 
it as a given that techeiles is NOT me'akeves. I never heard otherwise 
until this email.

In addition, if it were me'akeves, how would it be mutar to wear four 
cornered garments bizman hazeh? (Except for those who feel that techeiles 
has been identified bivadai.)

-mi

FWIW R. Gorelick used to wear hi stallis koton over his shirt and then a vest 
over his TK

Yet he opposed the practice of most bochurim wearin their tzitzis out.

(I heard this wnd hand, here goes anyway:)

It seems that R. Gorelick was makpid on keaping his arbo kanfos literally in all
4 corners (I believe this hakpada goes backto the GRO).  Therefore he wore is 
beged over his shirt NOT for display puroses but in order to keep the arbo 
kanfos lined up straight down in all 4 corner. This is difficult to do when 
tucked in.

OTOH, most bochurim wore their tzitis out 2 per side which violated the Gro's 
principle of keeping all 4 corners discreet; even more than had they been simply
tucked in.  Therefore, in order to keep a "supposed" chumro of displaying the 
tzitzisthey were doing damage to an ikkar haDin  -att least according to this 
shito.

I cannot say for sure that R. Gorelick did this al pi Brisk, but that would have
been typical.

Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Wearing a tallis gadol in public on Shabbos 

I believe that Briskers (certainly Chicago Briskers) 
do not wear their Tzitzis out, because they feel it is 
Yuharah. I know that R. Aaron Soloveichik doesn't.

HM 

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