Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 266

Sunday, January 9 2000

• Mamzerim with or without Bes Din
• New Modern Orthodox Rabbinical School
• Registry of who is a Jew
• Re: Avodah V4 #265
• [none]
• Re:Registry of who is a Jew
• Re: Re[2]: value of shas
• Re:Registry of who is a Jew
• Re: Re[2]: value of shas
• Re: Re:Registry of who is a Jew
• Is techeles m'akev a Talis Katan?
• Rabbi Yaakov Kaminetsky's Secret
• Re: Fwd (micha@aishdas.org): Re: Wearing a tallis gadol in public on Shabbos
• Re: Avodah V4 #265
• Re: Mamzer and chilul shabbos needs a beis din?

Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:06:53 +0200
From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada@zahav.net.il>
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #261

<<It's like people saying that someone is a "Mechalel Shabbat
> BeFrehesya" and yet halachically, this is true only if
> someone was warned by Eidim and the court found that he did
> so 7 Shabbatot (I don't have the exact source so the details
> are from memory, and a bit fuzzy).>>

	I think this assertion requires a source,  even if you need to work at
finding it from fuzzy memory.

Gershon

> From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" 
> <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> Subject: Fw: New Modern Orthodox Rabbinical School

<<Fascinating new Development!>>

	What is the purpose of this new school?

Gershon

> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 02:34:18 +0200
> From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
> Subject: Re: Registry of who is a Jew

<<Am I missing something here?  If she had children by the previous
husband,  how can the mitzvah of yibum apply?    Mrs GA>>

You aren't missing anything;  she wrote that they were mamzeirim
de'oraisa.

Gershon

> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 22:19:45 EST
> From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
> Subject: Silver Atara on Tallis Gadol

<<But recently, someone mentioned to me that his family has a specific
minhag *not* to have a silver atara on the tallis. This surprised me, but
he showed me where the Aruch Hashulchan (O"C 8:10, by the end) is opposed
to it.>>

	Most Misnagdim do not have ataros as they consider the mitzvah to be the
tzizis,  not the beged.  Lubavitch do not have an atara,  even of the
type that most talisos come with (i.e. decorative type cloth,  not
silver) because the Ari z"l was not makpid to have the same tzizis always
in front.  I am not sure of how the transition from "not makpid" to
"makpid not" came about.

Gershon

Akiva Miller asks about communities relating to the silver atara on
their talitot.

As an American Jew I wore my talit with conventional silver atara
when I first came to Israel 33 years ago.  When I moved to the
neighborhood where I live and began to daven in the Bet Midrash
haGadol al shem haGra in Shaare Hesed I was told that they did
NOT wear them and discourage their use.

This bet knesset was representative then of the yishuv hayashan,
descended from Ashkenazi Jews who came on aliya in the first
half of the 18th century.

But most of that generation has gone the way of all flesh and
newcomers, especially Americans, do wear them.  I gave up
wearing a silver atara more than 25 years ago.

__Bob Werman
rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il
Jerusalem
__Bob [Robert] Werman

RYGB wrote:
> R'
> Elyashiv, whether you agree with his piskei halacha or not, is one of the
> foremost poskim in Am Yisroel today. He is the premier posek for Ashkenazim,
> at this point in time. As such, an overwhelming number of major she'eilos of
> Mamzeirus, Chalalus, and non-Jewishness come before him. He is, therefore,
> uniquely situated and most acutely aware of what the problems are and what
> the necessary solutions might be.

Ergo the Minister of Health is most acutely aware of the health problems
in his or her country and what the solutions should be and so no
journalist has a right to criticise it. Take that one step further and
do away with a free press. Well, haven't chreidim done that already
which is what makes this list so refreshing.

I would go one further than Rev Teitz in that not only are we entitled
to question Gedolim's views but we are also entitled to answers from the
powers that be. It is a halokhe in khoyshen mishpot that one can
challenge a dayen 'meyheykhon dantoni?'.

This registry, if true, can and should be challenged at every level.

Rav Elyashuv for all his greatness is a yokhid and 'eyn don yekhidi elo
ekhod'.

If such a registry were to be managed by the State of Israel with all
the resources of a state at its disposal it would prove nigh impossible
so how is Rav Elyashuv going to manage it, logistically and financially?
Or will it be run on the basis of 'es vet shoyn git zan'?

There is every reason to suppose that Rav Elyashuv or those who control
access to him have little idea of the sensitivities that people brought
up in free liberal societies would have to being on or off such a list.

The only comparable list run by chareidim though minute in scale to a
registry of Jews is that of Tay Sachs. That unfortunately is corrupt and
a complete shambles, though it claims to have the approval of many
gedoylim.

The problem of yokhsin is not a new one. If I remember correctly from
when I learnt asoro yokhsin in yeshive there were similar problems with
the oyley bovel that there are with the oyley rusiya with various
solutions to the problem. It is strange that always these problems are
from outside the community and never deal with 'incidence' within the
community.

Let those wanting to set up such a registry show that they are competent
and have the courage to set up a registry of reputable botei dinim and
kashrus authorities before they set out to determine who is a Jew.

Dovid Herskovic

Ps I hear that a bes din linyoney makhshevim has been set up in Israel.
Will Avodah be seeking a hekhsher? :-)

PS. Please note my  new e-mail address.

On 5 Jan 00, at 11:14, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> A Few rambles on this 
> 
> 1) What about Tosefta, Mechilto, Sifro, and Sifrei?  What is there relative 
> status?

I think they're considered to be like Mishnayos.

> 2) Does your definition of Shas include yerushalmi?

Yeurshalmi is not as popular to learn, not only because of what 
has become a language gap, but because it is a cryptic style and 
because there are far fewer Rishonim who actually wrote on 
Yerushalmi. It is simply much more difficult to understand pshat in 
the words, which detracts from the "lomdus." There is a Daf Yomi 
Yerushalami here (takes about 3-4 years), but I don't have the 
impression that it is that popular (certainly nowhere near as popular 
as Bavli Daf Yomi).

> some more rambles:
> 
> 1) If TB were the definitve be-all adn end-all, how come so many masechtos are 
> omitted from the original 63 found in the mishna, eg most of Zeroim, most of 
> Kodshim? 

Because they were not so nogea l'maaseh outside of Eretz Yisrael 
and after the Churban.

Actually there is Bavli on most of Kodshim (Zvachim, Menachos, 
Chullin, Bchoros, Erechin, Tmura, Krisus, Tamid, Meila). Did you 
mean Taharos? 

> 2) And as we know that while TY has zeroim and TB does not - what does that say 
> about the Seder halimud in Bovel?  

That they weren't in EY :-) 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 9 Jan 00, at 12:25, David Herskovic wrote:

> There is every reason to suppose that Rav Elyashuv or those who control
> access to him have little idea of the sensitivities that people brought
> up in free liberal societies would have to being on or off such a list.

For the record, one of Rav Elyashiv's meshamshim is an American, 
and another is a South African. Admittedly, neither of them is the 
one who makes the appointments, but I know that I have gotten in 
to see Rav Elyashiv on two occasions (both for brachos for my 
son), so obviously it is not THAT hard to get in to see him. 

> The only comparable list run by chareidim though minute in scale to a
> registry of Jews is that of Tay Sachs. That unfortunately is corrupt and
> a complete shambles, though it claims to have the approval of many
> gedoylim.

On what basis do you make that statement?

> Ps I hear that a bes din linyoney makhshevim has been set up in Israel.
> Will Avodah be seeking a hekhsher? :-)

I don't think Avodah can get one. There were two separate notices 
(amazing how fast word travels - I just saw this on Friday myself). 
One was a total ban on the internet - even for places of business. 
The other was the Beis Din. The former was signed principally 
(maybe even entirely) by the Dayanim of the Eida Charedis, while 
the latter was signed by poskim who included Rav Elyashiv.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

I give, to the best of my knowledge, the only DY Yerushalmi shiur in English
in the world. (There is an Amud Yomi Yerushalmi shiur in Flatbush, which is,
to the best of my knowledge, the only other English language Yerushalmi
shiur in the world). We are about two-thirds of the way through our first
cycle, and it is a lot of fun (not to mention challenging). Highly
recommended! Best of all, you can get everything (well, almost everything.
From time to time I lose masters) we have done on tape. Here is a list,
almost up to date. Next cycle starts in about a year and a half, but get a
head start! Special discount to Avodah members!

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

Daf Yomi in Talmud Yerushalmi
(Generally two blatt per tape.)
Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Berachos:
TY 1. 1-2 TY 2. 3-4 TY 3. 5-6
TY 4. 7-8 TY 5. 9-10 TY 6. 11-12
TY 7. 13-14 TY 8. 15-16 TY 9. 17-18
TY 10. 19-20 TY 11. 21-22 TY 12. 23-24
TY 13. 25-26 TY 14. 27-28 TY 15. 29-30
TY 16. 31-32 TY 17. 33-34 TY 18. 35-37
TY 19. 38-40 TY 20. 41-42 TY 21. 43-46
TY 22. 47-48 TY 23. 49-52 TY 24. 53-54
TY 25. 55-57 TY 26. 58-59 TY 27. 60-61
TY 28. 62-63 TY 29. 64-65 TY 30. 66-67

Pe'ah:
TY 31. Berachos 68 (Siyum)-Pe'ah 1 TY 32. 2-3
TY 33. 4-5 TY 34. 6-7 TY 35. 8-9
TY 36. 10-12 TY 37. 13-14 TY 38. 15-16
TY 39. 17-18 TY 40. 19-21 TY 41. 22-23
TY 42. 24-25 TY 43. 26-27 TY 44. 28-29
TY 45. 30-31 TY 46. n/c32-33 TY 47. 34-35
TY 48. 36-37

Demai:
TY 49. 1-2 TY 50. 3-4 TY 51. 5-6
TY 52. 7-8 TY 53. 9-10 TY 54. 11-13
TY 55. 14-16 TY 56. 17-18 TY 57. 19-20
TY 58. 21-22 TY 59. 23-24 TY 60. 25-26
TY 61. 27-28 TY 62. 29-30
TY 63. 31 (cross linked with Nach tape NB 107)
TY 64. 32-34

Kilayim:
TY 65. 1-2 TY 66. 3-4 TY 67. 5-7
TY 68. 8-9 TY 69. 10-11 TY 70. 12-13
TY 71. 14-15 TY 72. 16-17 TY 73. 18-19
TY 74. 20-21 TY 75. 21-22 TY 76. 23-25
TY 77. 26-27 TY 78. 28-29 TY 79. 30-31
TY 80. 32-33 TY 81. 34-35 TY 82. 36-37
TY 83. 38-39 TY 84. 40-41 TY 85. 42-43
TY 86. 44

Shevi'is:
TY 87.  1-2 TY 88.  3-4 TY 89.  5-6
TY 90.  7-8 TY 91.  9-10 TY 92.  11-12
TY 93.  13-14 TY 94.  15-16 TY 95.  17-18
TY 96.  19 TY 97.  20-22 TY 98.  23-25
TY 99. 26 TY 100. 27-28 TY 101. 29

Terumos:
TY 102. Shevi'is 30 (Siyum)-Terumos 1
TY 103. 2-4 TY 104. 5-6 TY 105. 7-8
TY 106. 9-10 TY 107. 11-12 TY 108. 13-14
TY 109. 15-16 TY 110. 17-18 TY 111. 19-21
TY 112. 22-23 TY 113. 24-26 TY 114. 27-28
TY 115. 29-30 TY 116. 31-32 TY 117. 33-34
TY 118. 35-36 TY 119. 37-38 TY 120. 39-41
TY 121. 42-43 TY 122. 44-45 TY 123. 46-47
TY 124. 48-50 TY 125. 51-52 TY 126. 53-54
TY 127. 55-56 TY 128. 57-59

Ma'asros:
TY 129. 1-2 TY 130. 3-4 TY 131. 5
TY 132. 6-7 TY 133. 8-9 TY 134. 10-11
TY 135. 12-13 TY 136. 14-15 TY 137. 16-17
TY 138. 18-19 TY 139. 20-21 TY 140. 22-23
TY 141. 24-25

Ma'aser Sheni:
TY 142. Ma'asros 26 (Siyum)-Ma'aser Sheni 1-2
TY 143. 3-4 TY 144. 5-6 TY 145. 7-8
TY 146. 9-10 TY 147. 11-12 TY 147a 12-13
TY 148. 13-14 TY 149. 15-16 TY 150. 17-18
TY 151. 19 TY 152. 20-21 TY 153. 22-23
TY 154. 24-25 TY 155. 26-27 TY 156. 28-29
TY 157. 30-31 TY 158. 32-33

Challa:
TY 159. 1-2 TY 160. 3-4 TY 161. 5-6
TY 162. 7-8 TY 163. 9-10 TY 164. 13-14
TY 165. 15-16 TY 166. 17-19 TY 167. 20-21
TY 168. 22-23 TY 169. 24-25 TY 170. 26-27

Orla:
TY 171. Challa 27 (Siyum)-Orla 1 TY 172. 2-3
TY 173. 4-5 TY 174. 6-7 TY 175. 8-9
TY 176. 10-11 TY 177. 12-13 TY 178. 14-15
TY 179. 16 TY 180. 17-18

Bikkurim:
TY 181. Orla 19-20 (Siyum)-Bikkurim 1
TY 182. 2-3 TY 183. 4-5 TY 184. 6-7
TY 185. 8-9 TY 186. 10-11
TY 187 12-13: Siyum Seder Zera'im,
Special Presentation by Rabbi Meyer Magence

Shabbos:
TY 188. 1-2 TY 189. 3-4 TY 190. 5-6
TY 191. 7-8 TY 192. 9-10 TY 193. 11-12
TY 194. 13-14 TY 195. 15-16 TY 196. 17-18
TY 197. 19-20 TY 198. 21-22 TY 199. 22-24
TY 200. 25-26 TY 201. 27-28 TY 202. 29-30
TY 203. 31-32 TY 204. 33-34 TY 205. 35-36
TY 206. 37-38 TY 207. 39-40 TY 208. 41-42
TY 209. 43-44 TY 210. 45-46 TY 211. 47-48
TY 212. 49-50 TY 213. 51-52 TY 214. 53-54
TY 215. 55-56 TY 216. 57-58 TY 217. 59-60
TY 218. 61-62 TY 219. 63-64 TY 220. 65-66
TY 221. 67-68 TY 222. 69-70 TY 223. 71
TY 224. 72-73 TY 225. 74-75 TY 226. 76-77
TY 227. 78-79 TY 228. 80-81 TY 229. 82-83
TY 230. 84-85 TY 231. 86-87 TY 232. 88-89
TY 233. 90-92

Eruvin:
TY 234. 1-2 TY 235. 3-4 TY 236. 5-6
TY 237. 7-8 TY 238. 9-10 TY 239. 11-12
TY 240. 13-14 TY 241. 15-17 TY 242. 18-19
TY 243. 20-21 TY 244. 22-23 TY 245. 24-25
TY 246. 26-27 TY 247. 28-30 TY 248. 31-32
TY 249. 33 TY 250. 34-35 TY 251. 36-38
TY 252. 39-40 TY 253. 40-41 TY 254. 42
TY 255. 43-44 TY 256. 45-46 TY 257. 47-48
TY 258. 49-51 TY 259. 52-53 TY 260. 54-55
TY 261. 56-57 TY 262. 58-60 TY 263. 61
TY 264. 62-63 TY 265. 64-65

Pesachim:
TY 266. 1-2 TY 267. 3-4 TY 268. 5-6
TY 269. 7-8 TY 270. 9 TY 271. 10-11
TY 272. 12-13 TY 273. 14-15 TY 274. 16-17
TY 275. 18-19 TY 276. 20-21 TY 277. 22-23
TY 278. 24-25 TY 279. 26-27 TY 280. 28-30
TY 281. 31-32 TY 282. 33 TY 283. 34-35
TY 284. 36-38 TY 285. 39-40 TY 286. 41-42
TY 287. 43-44 TY 288. 45 TY 289. 46-47
TY 290. 48-49 TY 291. 50-51 TY 292. 52-53
TY 293. 54-55 TY 294. 56-57 TY 295. 58-59
TY 296. 60-61 TY 297. 62-64 TY 298. 65-66
TY 299. 67-68 TY 300. 69

Beitza:
TY 301. 1-2 TY 302. 3-4 TY 303. 5-6
TY 304. 7-8 TY 305. 9-10 TY 306. 11-12
TY 307. 13-14 TY 308. 15-16 TY 309. 17-18
TY 310. 19-20

Rosh HaShana:
TY 311. Beitza 21 (Siyum)-Rosh HaShana 1
TY 312. 2 TY 313. 3-4 TY 314. 5-6
TY 315. 7-9 TY 316. 10-11 TY 317. 12-13
TY 318. 14-15 TY 319. 16-17 TY 320. 18-19
TY 321. 20-21

Yuma:
TY 322. Rosh HaShana 22 (Siyum)-Yuma 1-2
TY 323. 3-4 TY 324. 5-6 TY 325. 7-8
TY 326. 9-10 TY 327. 11-12 TY 328. 13-14
TY 329. 15-18 TY 330. 19-20 TY 331. 21-22
TY 332. 23-27 TY 333. 28-29 TY 334. 30
TY 335. 31-32 TY 336. 33-34 TY 337. 35-36
TY 338. 37-38 TY 339. 39-40 TY 340. 41-42

Sukkah:
TY 341. 1-2 TY 342. 3-4 TY 343. 5-6
TY 344. 7-8 TY 345. 9-11 TY 346. 12-13
TY 347. 14-15 TY 348. 16-17 TY 349. 18-19
TY 350. 20-21 TY 351. 22-23 TY 352. 24-26

Ta'anis:
TY 353. 1-2 TY 354. 3-4 TY 355. 5-6
TY 356. 7-8 TY 357. 9-10 TY 358. 11-12
TY 359. 13-14 TY 360. 15-16 TY 361. 17-18
TY 362. 19-20 TY 363. 21-22 TY 364. 23-24
TY 365. 25-26

Megilla:
TY 366. 1-2 TY 367. 3-4 TY 368. 5-6
TY 369. 7-8 TY 370. 9-10 TY 371. 11-12
TY 372. 13-14 TY 373. 15-16 TY 374. 17-18
TY 375. 19-20 TY 376. 21-22 TY 377. 23-24
TY 378. 25-26 TY 379. 27-28 TY 380. 29-30
TY 381. n/c 31 TY 382. 32-33 TY 383. 33-34-Chagiga 1

Chagiga:
TY 384. 2-3 TY 385. 4 TY 386. 5
TY 387. 6 TY 388. 7 TY 389. 8-9
TY 390. 10 TY 391. 11 TY 392. 12
TY 393. 13 TY 394. 14-15 TY 395. 16
TY 396. 17-18 TY 397. 19 TY 398. 20
TY 399. 21-22

Mo'ed Kattan:
TY 400. 1-2 TY 401. n/c 3-4 TY 402. n/c 5-6
TY 403. 7-8 TY 404. 9-10 TY 405. 11-12
TY 406. 13 TY 407. 14-15 TY 408. 16-17
TY 409. 18-19

Yevamos:
TY 410. 1-2-Siyum Seder Mo'ed TY 411. 3-4
TY 412. 5-6 TY 413. 7 TY 414. 8-9
TY 415. 10-11 TY 416. n/c 12 TY 417. 13-14
TY 418. 15-16 TY 419. 17 TY 420. 18-19
TY 421. 20 TY 422. 21-22 TY 423. 23-24
TY 424. 25-26 TY 425. 27-28 TY 426. 29-30
TY 427. 31-32 TY 428. 33-34 TY 429. 35-36
TY 430. 37 TY 431. 38-39 TY 432. 40-41
TY 433. 42-43 TY 434. 44 TY 435. 45-46
TY 436. 47-48 TY 437. 49 TY 438. 50-51
TY 439. 52-53 TY 440. 54-55 TY 441. 56-57
TY 442. 58-59 TY 443. 60-61 TY 444. 62-63
TY 445. 64-65 TY 446. 66-67 TY 447. 68-69
TY 448. 70-71 TY 449. 72-73 TY 450. 74-75
TY 451. 76-77 TY 452. 78-79 TY 453. 80-81
TY 454. 82-83 TY 455. 84-85

Kesuvos:
TY 456. 1-2 TY 457. 3-4 TY 458. 5-6
TY 459. 7-8 TY 460. 9-10 TY 461. 11
TY 462. 12 TY 463. 13-14 TY 464. 15-16
TY 465. 17-19 TY 466. 20-21 TY 467. 22-23
TY 468. 24-25 TY 469. 26-27 TY 470. 28-29
TY 471. 30 TY 472. 31-32 TY 473. 33-34
TY 474. 35-37 TY 475. 38-39 TY 476. 40-41
TY 477. 42-43 TY 478. 44-45 TY 479. 46-47


----- Original Message -----
From: Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
To: <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com>; <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: value of shas


> Yeurshalmi is not as popular to learn, not only because of what
> has become a language gap, but because it is a cryptic style and
> because there are far fewer Rishonim who actually wrote on
> Yerushalmi. It is simply much more difficult to understand pshat in
> the words, which detracts from the "lomdus." There is a Daf Yomi
> Yerushalami here (takes about 3-4 years), but I don't have the
> impression that it is that popular (certainly nowhere near as popular
> as Bavli Daf Yomi).
>

----- Original Message -----
From: David Herskovic <crucible@talk21.com>
To: Avodah <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 6:25 AM
Subject: Re:Registry of who is a Jew


> RYGB wrote:
> > R'
> > Elyashiv, whether you agree with his piskei halacha or not, is one of
the
> > foremost poskim in Am Yisroel today. He is the premier posek for
Ashkenazim,
> > at this point in time. As such, an overwhelming number of major
she'eilos of
> > Mamzeirus, Chalalus, and non-Jewishness come before him. He is,
therefore,
> > uniquely situated and most acutely aware of what the problems are and
what
> > the necessary solutions might be.
>
> Ergo the Minister of Health is most acutely aware of the health problems
> in his or her country and what the solutions should be and so no
> journalist has a right to criticise it. Take that one step further and
> do away with a free press. Well, haven't chreidim done that already
> which is what makes this list so refreshing.
>

Crucible, huh?

Actually, I would give another mashal. Ministers in the parlimentary systems
are often political appointees. We have here in the USA a rough analog to R'
Elyashiv in the secular Gadol Ha'Dor, i.e., Alan Greenspan, the head of the
Federal Reserve. (He is young for a gadol, 73, but he is probably an illui
:-). ) I would find it equally amusing/distressing if a bunch of laypersons,
non-economists, would armchair quarterback Greenspan with no proof or
evidence.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

R' Harry Maryles wrote <<< I do not use the Chicago Eruv and will not
wear a Talis in the street for Hotzo'ah reasons.  Being a Talmid of R.
Aaron, I follow his (and I assume all Brisker's) logic on the issue. 
Since they hold that a lack of T'cheles is MeAkev the Mitzvah of Tzitzis,
then wearing those fringes sown to the beged sans T'cheles serve no
purpose and it amounts to Hotzo'oh. Since one is not required to wear a
beged of Dalid Kanfos, one simply doesn't.  Otherwise there would be a
D'Oraiso Violation of Shabbos. It seems to me that even if one does not
subscribe to the view that T'cheles is MeAkev (which I believe is almost
the universal view), it would be prudent to be choshesh for this view.
>>>

Would I be correct in presuming that those who follow the logic above
also avoid wearing a four-cornered tallis katan even during the week? For
lack of t'cheles, that shita would say it's assur, no?

Akiva Miller

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Rabbi Yaakov Kaminetsky's Secret
==========================================

Rabbi Yaakov Kaminetsky (1891-1986) was one of Orthodox 
Judaism's greatest leaders.

When he was already in his 90s, some of his students asked 
him how he merited to live so many years.

He answered them, "In my entire life, I have never told a lie."

==========================================
END OF MESSAGE: Rabbi Yaakov Kaminetsky's Secret
==========================================

On Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 12:58:07PM -0800, Harry Maryles wrote:
:                                                 The
: Rishonim discuss (I think the Rambam  Tosephos and the
: Rif??) as to whether Techeles is MeAkev or whether
: Techeles and Lavan are separate mitzvos, and the
: implications thereof. 

Actually, you misremember. They areee they are NOT me'akovos. The question
is whether or not that's a ra'ayah that these are to be counted as separate
mitzvos.

I mentioned an oddity in the Rambam, that he counts them as a single mitzvah
and yet he counts head and arm tephillin, the second half of the mishnah, as
separate mitzvos -- and uses the lack of me'akvus (is that a word?) as a
proof.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  9-Jan-00: Cohen, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 96b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 12

FWIW, I wear an atarah on my talis, three rows of silver plates as a reminder
of the three kisarim of Avos 4:17, and in particular, to remember to earn
the fourth.

It also makes my talis hard to lose. Who else has a white-on-white talis
with techeiles tied lefi the Radziner and an atarah to boot? <grin>

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  9-Jan-00: Cohen, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 96b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 12

In a message dated 1/8/00 6:20:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, Shoshana L. 
Boublil writes:
<< It's like people saying that someone is a "Mechalel Shabbat
 BeFrehesya" and yet halachically, this is true only if
 someone was warned by Eidim and the court found that he did
 so 7 Shabbatot (I don't have the exact source so the details
 are from memory, and a bit fuzzy). >>

I think that this statement is also entirely halachically incorrect. If you 
see someone be mechalel shabbos befarhesya (something like lighting a 
striking a match and lighting and smoking a cigarette in the street) he has 
all the dinim of a mechalel Shabbos whether or not s/he ever was proclaimed 
so by a beis din or not. The only heter is what the binyon tsion and others 
say is that today all are in a category of tinok shenishba. I understand that 
your memory on this is fuzzy, but I have never heard, and have never come 
across in posekim, what you are saying. Teshuva seforim are full of questions 
from baaley teshuvah who return to their parents home and they ask posekim 
even if the parents prepare kosher food can they drink the wine. Never have I 
come across that as long as the parents where never proclaimed to be 
mechalelai Shabbos by a beis din that it is no problem. 

The same is true with mamzerim. Of course if their is any doubt one should go 
to a posek to clarify the status and until that is done the child may not be 
considered a mamzer. But in a clear cut case I have never heard of the 
necessity of a pesak of a beis din.

If any list member knows of such sources that indicate that a mechalel 
Shabbos needs a pesak from a beis din that he was mechalel 7 shabosim, or 
with regard to a Mamzer I would greatly appreciate being made aware of such 
sources. Until I hear such sources it seems to me from that these contentions 
have absolutely no halachic basis.

*********************


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