Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 265

Saturday, January 8 2000

• Re: Avodah V4 #264
• Re: Registry of who is a Jew
• Fw: New Modern Orthodox Rabbinical School
• tzitzis
• Re: tzitzis on Shabbos
• Jewish Registry
• Tzitzit on Shabbos
• Silver Atara on Tallis Gadol
• Tzitzis and T'cheles
• Da'as Torah
• Re: Da'as Torah
• Re: Tzitzit on Shabbos

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 1:14 AM
Subject: Avodah V4 #264
>
> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 18:58:47 +0000
> From: Chana/Heather Luntz
<Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: Registry of who is a Jew
>
> Without getting into the question of whether or not we
should have such
> a registry, has anybody considered what seems to me to be
a fundamental
> problem - namely Money!
[del]
> And while proving that people are posul is often
reasonably easy,
> proving that they are kosher is far more difficult.
Clearly certain
> standards would need to be set (eg Jewish as far back as
the mid 1800s
> or some such) which may be realistic target (at least in
the areas of
> the world with which I am familiar) - but would take
serious time and
> effort.  But, if you are having to deal with establishing
> Jewishness/kashrus over that time scale, the two witnesses
approach is
> not sufficient,and most documentary sources available
within Europe are
> non Jewish ones (eg Czarist revision lists of Jews).  On
the other hand,
> if you make the date of kashrus more recent (eg 1940s-50s)
you will have
> to exclude most of Russian Jewry and American Jewry, or
rely on even
> more dubious sources.

During a discussion on these issues a few years ago, I heard
that after WWII it was paskened that the Pinkasei HaKehilot
which had tracked Mamzerim for hundreds of years, and which
had been lost during the war -- were not to be
re-opened(sorry, no written source that I know of), so that
it's quite possible that descendants of those families have
been living amongst us as kosher families -- and will now
suddenly find themselves in an awful position!

How would such a decision play out with the kind of problems
Chana and others have raised?  How do you prove anything
about people who don't have any paperwork b/c they fled
Europe even earlier and the places they went to didn't have
registers like they do in the States?

I don't know.

Shoshana L. Boublil

> No, it is not R' Elyashiv alone. And, it is plain 'ol common sense (the
> fifth volume of SA). And, it is precedented. See below.

Re. the remarks of Rav Elyashiv, shlita.  -  is this considered a psak? If
so, then it would certainly have the force of halacha for all those
following his rulings.  Or is it a strong etza?

A yichus registry has obvious merits, to be sure.  It also has its problems.
Will these add to the tremendous problems already existing or streamline the
process of
research and save time and anguish?  Will the registry keep a record of
everyone's certificates?.  All of our concerns should be addressed to the
Rebbeim who would be initiating registry. I'm sure Rav Elyashiv has
considered most of these, but even he is not
omniscient. The potential plurality of the registry makers could the major
potential problem!  A new challenge for achdus.
The budget would be the other major problem...
>
.........
> A family from the country in whose rabbinate I once served, emigrated to
> Eretz Yisroel. This family's children are mamzeirim mideOraisa: the father
> married his brother's widow, despite the fact that she had living children
> from her previous husband. It was a clear case of marrying a brother's
wife
> without a mitzvah of yibum.

Am I missing something here?  If she had children by the previous husband,
how can the mitzvah of yibum apply?    Mrs GA

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Fascinating new Development!

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org=20




NEW YESHIVA TO TRAIN MODERN ORTHODOX RABBIS

New York - Yeshivat Chovevei Torah, a new Modern Orthodox yeshiva =
located=20
near New York's Columbia University, will begin training students for =
the=20
rabbinate next September, according to Rabbi Avi Weiss, Dean of the =
yeshiva=20
and spiritual leader of the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale. "The mission =
of=20
the new rabbinic program," said Rabbi Weiss, "will be to train men to =
enter=20
professionally into Jewish religious leadership, in order to shape the=20
spiritual and intellectual character of the Jewish community in =
consonance=20
with modern, open Orthodox values and commitments."

The yeshiva will offer a full-time course of study over four years, one =
of=20
which will be spent in Israel. The program will provide students with =
the=20
intellectual, spiritual and communal training to become successful =
rabbis.=20
Students will be prepared to meet the high standards of ordination tests =

given by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel. The yeshiva will admit up to 10=20
students a year, each of whom will receive a full remission of tuition =
and a=20
substantial stipend. In return, these students will make a commitment to =

serve in the rabbinate for a minimum of three years after completing the =

program. Registration for the rabbinical school will commence January =
17,=20
2000.

Yeshivat Chovevei Torah has attracted a highly-qualified faculty. Rabbi =
Dov=20
Linzer has been appointed Rosh HaYeshiva. He is currently the Rosh =
HaYeshiva=20
of the undergraduate program, and previously headed the Judaic Fellows=20
Program, the kollel of Boca Raton, Florida. Recognized as a brilliant =
Torah=20
scholar, Rabbi Linzer noted, "The method of study at Yeshivat Chovevei =
Torah=20
will focus on the conceptual underpinnings of Jewish law, how these =
unfolded=20
over time, and the creative contribution of each generation of Torah =
sages."=20
"In addition to gaining mastery of such traditional fields as kashrut,=20
Shabbat and family law, " he continued, "students will study other =
areas,=20
such as business and interpersonal ethics, and women in Jewish law."

Rabbi Saul Berman will head the school's rabbinic curriculum committee =
and=20
will also teach contemporary halakhic issues. Rabbi Berman, on the =
faculty of=20
Yeshiva University's Stern College for Women and Director of Edah, said, =
"We=20
will strive to teach Jewish law as the merger of intellectual excellence =
and=20
spiritual meaning in the reality of Jewish living."=20

Rabbi Weiss will be teaching Jewish Thought and Prayer, and will shape =
the=20
training components in rabbinic, communal and spiritual leadership. He=20
stressed that during their rabbinic training, students will be expected =
to=20
contribute to the educational and spiritual growth of the community =
through=20
internships. Their engagement in this process will strengthen their=20
preparation for the rabbinate and will contribute to Jewish communal =
unity.

The new rabbinical school is a natural outgrowth of the highly =
successful=20
Yeshivat Chovevei Torah Undergraduate Program. This program, directed by =

Rabbi Dov Weiss, opened in September, 1999. In its first semester it has =

attracted 50 students, mainly from Columbia University and Barnard =
College.=20
Students involved in this program commit two and a half hours each day =
to=20
serious Torah study. Rabbi Dov Weiss is a past rabbinic intern of the =
Jewish=20
Center of Manhattan, and a former Wexner Graduate Fellow.

The founding board of Yeshivat Chovevei Torah includes acting chairman =
Howard=20
Jonas, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of IDT; Stewart Harris, of =
Miami,=20
Florida; Dan Katz, of Milwaukee, Wisconsin; and Lewis Bernstein and =
Hillel=20
Jaffe, of Riverdale, New York.

Yeshivat Chovevei Torah is located at Congregation Ramath Orah, 550 West =

110th Street, in New York City. Persons interested in registration or =
further=20
information should contact the yeshiva's office at (212) 666-0036.



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<BODY><FONT size=3D2>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>Fascinating new Development!</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer<BR>Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 =
W.=20
Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila">http://www.aishdas.org/baistef=
ila</A>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<A href=3D"mailto:ygb@aishdas.org">ygb@aishdas.org</A></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><BR></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>NEW YESHIVA TO TRAIN MODERN =
ORTHODOX=20
RABBIS<BR><BR>New York - Yeshivat Chovevei Torah, a new Modern Orthodox =
yeshiva=20
located <BR>near New York's Columbia University, will begin training =
students=20
for the <BR>rabbinate next September, according to Rabbi Avi Weiss, Dean =
of the=20
yeshiva <BR>and spiritual leader of the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale. =
"The=20
mission of <BR>the new rabbinic program," said Rabbi Weiss, "will be to =
train=20
men to enter <BR>professionally into Jewish religious leadership, in =
order to=20
shape the <BR>spiritual and intellectual character of the Jewish =
community in=20
consonance <BR>with modern, open Orthodox values and =
commitments."<BR><BR>The=20
yeshiva will offer a full-time course of study over four years, one of =
<BR>which=20
will be spent in Israel. The program will provide students with the=20
<BR>intellectual, spiritual and communal training to become successful =
rabbis.=20
<BR>Students will be prepared to meet the high standards of ordination =
tests=20
<BR>given by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel. The yeshiva will admit up to =
10=20
<BR>students a year, each of whom will receive a full remission of =
tuition and a=20
<BR>substantial stipend. In return, these students will make a =
commitment to=20
<BR>serve in the rabbinate for a minimum of three years after completing =
the=20
<BR>program. Registration for the rabbinical school will commence =
January 17,=20
<BR>2000.<BR><BR>Yeshivat Chovevei Torah has attracted a =
highly-qualified=20
faculty. Rabbi Dov <BR>Linzer has been appointed Rosh HaYeshiva. He is =
currently=20
the Rosh HaYeshiva <BR>of the undergraduate program, and previously =
headed the=20
Judaic Fellows <BR>Program, the kollel of Boca Raton, Florida. =
Recognized as a=20
brilliant Torah <BR>scholar, Rabbi Linzer noted, "The method of study at =

Yeshivat Chovevei Torah <BR>will focus on the conceptual underpinnings =
of Jewish=20
law, how these unfolded <BR>over time, and the creative contribution of =
each=20
generation of Torah sages." <BR>"In addition to gaining mastery of such=20
traditional fields as kashrut, <BR>Shabbat and family law, " he =
continued,=20
"students will study other areas, <BR>such as business and interpersonal =
ethics,=20
and women in Jewish law."<BR><BR>Rabbi Saul Berman will head the =
school's=20
rabbinic curriculum committee and <BR>will also teach contemporary =
halakhic=20
issues. Rabbi Berman, on the faculty of <BR>Yeshiva University's Stern =
College=20
for Women and Director of Edah, said, "We <BR>will strive to teach =
Jewish law as=20
the merger of intellectual excellence and <BR>spiritual meaning in the =
reality=20
of Jewish living." <BR><BR>Rabbi Weiss will be teaching Jewish Thought =
and=20
Prayer, and will shape the <BR>training components in rabbinic, communal =
and=20
spiritual leadership. He <BR>stressed that during their rabbinic =
training,=20
students will be expected to <BR>contribute to the educational and =
spiritual=20
growth of the community through <BR>internships. Their engagement in =
this=20
process will strengthen their <BR>preparation for the rabbinate and will =

contribute to Jewish communal unity.<BR><BR>The new rabbinical school is =
a=20
natural outgrowth of the highly successful <BR>Yeshivat Chovevei Torah=20
Undergraduate Program. This program, directed by <BR>Rabbi Dov Weiss, =
opened in=20
September, 1999. In its first semester it has <BR>attracted 50 students, =
mainly=20
from Columbia University and Barnard College. <BR>Students involved in =
this=20
program commit two and a half hours each day to <BR>serious Torah study. =
Rabbi=20
Dov Weiss is a past rabbinic intern of the Jewish <BR>Center of =
Manhattan, and a=20
former Wexner Graduate Fellow.<BR><BR>The founding board of Yeshivat =
Chovevei=20
Torah includes acting chairman Howard <BR>Jonas, Chairman and Chief =
Executive=20
Officer of IDT; Stewart Harris, of Miami, <BR>Florida; Dan Katz, of =
Milwaukee,=20
Wisconsin; and Lewis Bernstein and Hillel <BR>Jaffe, of Riverdale, New=20
York.<BR><BR>Yeshivat Chovevei Torah is located at Congregation Ramath =
Orah, 550=20
West <BR>110th Street, in New York City. Persons interested in =
registration or=20
further <BR>information should contact the yeshiva's office at (212)=20
666-0036.<BR></P></FONT><FONT size=3D2></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BF5A06.F4F58D20--

In response to Reb HM's question re tzitzis on shabbos, it is actually the 
shita of the baal hamaor that holds that techeiles is meakev and the simple 
reading of the baal hamaor is that he didn't wear tzitzis at all because of 
this.  Although the first mishna in perek techeiles does say that techeiles 
aynah meakeves, the gemara brings a machlokes between the rabbanan and rebbe. 
and the baal hamaor paskens like rebbe.  Almost all the other rishonim, 
especially the Ramban in the milchamos, disagree.  The maharam miruttenberg 
actually was choshesh for the shita of the baal hamaor on shabbos when a 
dioraysah was involved (but he did wear tzitzis during the week).  This chumra 
is brought by the Rosh and the Tur and others.  The fact that the briskers are 
machmir probably also has something to do with their shita that our cities do 
contain reshus harrabim doraysahs.  But the mekor for the chumra was the 
maharam miruttenberg.  If anyone on the list would like a copy of a complete 
review of this subject that I have written, I would be happy to forward it to 
you.  However, I wrote it as part of something I am working on, so it is 
biased towards the issue of techeiles bzman hazeh.  In fact, one of the 
radziner's arguments for putting on his techeiles was this maharam. 
Shaul Weinreb

In a message dated 00-01-08 18:17:08 EST, you write:

<< Can anyone help us out here? Does it have something to
 do with being Meakeves only l"gabey Shabbos?
 
 Never the less I can assure you that R. Aaron does not
 wear Tzitzis in Reshus HaRabim on Shabbos. 
   >>
The Ba'al Hamaor paskens that techeiles is meaeiv lavan. R.Ahron said that as 
far as the issur of carrying on Shabbos he is chosheish for that opinion even 
though its a minority one, but not as far as beracha or as far as wearing a 
four-cornered garment without tzitzis. Note, however, that, in the days when 
Rav Ahron was ablew to walk around outside on Shabbos, although he did not 
wear his tzitzis outside, he did wear thm while he was at home.He wore them 
over his shirt so that he would remember to take them off before he went 
outside. 

It is not my custom to debate with qualified Rabbanim on the internet.
However RYGB's critique of my posting on this subject has left some
misconceptions that I need to address.  First, I never questionned the
capabilities of Harav Eliashiv on deciding whether a yichus registry is
necessary or not.  Nor did I even venture an opinion on whether such a
registry was or will be a good idea.  I merely suggested that attempting
to discourage divergent views on the subject by bringing Harav
Eliashiv's views as authoritative was a bad idea.  When I characterized
the quoted statement by Harav Eliashiv as political rather than
halachic, I was merely describing the implication of the quoted phrase
that such a registry might be needed (in the future).  If this were a
pesak halacha, then it would state that a registry is now needed.  As
far as the future is concerned, such a determination would be presumably
based on those future conditions, not on speculation on what the future
holds.  Otherwise we are dealing with a Takanah.  But the quoted
language of Harav Eliashiv is definitely not the language of a takanah.
Instead, it is a public policy statement (political statements are not
merely statements made by politicians), which Rav Elazar Meir Teitz has
characteized in this forum as not being authoritative.  Note, that I am
by no means attempting to lessen the authority and respect that Harav
Eliashiv enjoys today in the torah world.  Nor was I comparing him
unfavorably with Harav Moshe Feinstein.  I merely used Harav Moshe as an
example of  what I believe is needed for someone to rise to the status
of a posek hador.  That is, to have his teshuvot widely disseminated and
accepted by frum Jews everywhere, not just in some yeshiva circles and
not just by some morei horaah.  Qualified Rabbanim such as REMT and RYGB
are in a much better position than I to evaluate the contribution that
Harav Eliashiv makes today to the world of halacha.  When I spoke of
contemporary poskim and Roshei Yeshivot requiring cogent arguments for
general acceptability, I was not thinking specifically of Harav
Eliashiv.  It is possible that he already has sufficient stature that
his piskei halacha have halachic force without further explanation
(unless you wish to rely on a comparable posek who disagrees).  I was
thinking of the more general phenomenon in the yeshiva world where their
rosh yeshiva or the posek that they rely on is deemed to have universal
authority.  Such an attitutude when carried over into the much freer
spirit of the internet world is bound to cause reactions and
controversy.

I would not have commented on the 1943 article by Rav Mertzbach on the
alleged problem of mamzerut caused by the then recent immigrations to
Palestine had it not been for the quoted sentence on mamzerim being the
apparent cause of WWII (and the near-destruction of European Jewry).   I
find that statement to be offensive and would rather it had been
omitted. [ If it does not add to the author' argument, why include it -
unless you agree with it?  If a complete citation is deemed necessary
for the sake of accuracy, then why do we not have a fuller citation of
Harav Eliashiv's position?]

Respectfully,

Yitzchok Zlochower

> 
> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 12:58:07 -0800 (PST)
> From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Fwd (micha@aishdas.org): Re: Wearing a tallis gadol in public on Shabbos
> 
> - --- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> > On Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 11:24:19AM -0800, Harry
> > Maryles wrote:
> > :                                            Being a
> > : Talmid of R. Aaron, I follow his (and I assume all
> > : Brisker's) logic on the issue.  Since they hold
> > that a
> > : lack of T'cheles is MeAkev the Mitzvah of Tzitzis,
> > : then wearing those fringes sown to the beged sans
> > : T'cheles serve no purpose and it amounts to
> > Hotzo'oh.
> > 
> > I'm a bit surprised. There's a stam mishnah
> > "techeiles eino me'akaves es
> > halavan" (and visa versa, if that's ever lima'aseh).
> > There is much Torah
> > on the Rambam who says that even so, they are
> > considered only one mitzvah
> > of the 613; yet on the same mishnah he uses the fact
> > that shel rosh isn't
> > me'akev the shel yad (and visa versa) to prove they
> > are different mitzvos.
> > After all, can you be yotzei part of any one chiyuv?
> > Lulav without esrog?
> 
> To be honest with you I don't remember that mishna,
> but I do know that it is not so pashut and I think
> there is a Machlokes in the Gemorrah about it.  The
> Rishonim discuss (I think the Rambam  Tosephos and the
> Rif??) as to whether Techeles is MeAkev or whether
> Techeles and Lavan are separate mitzvos, and the
> implications thereof. 
> 
> Can anyone help us out here? Does it have something to
> do with being Meakeves only l"gabey Shabbos?
> 
> Never the less I can assure you that R. Aaron does not
> wear Tzitzis in Reshus HaRabim on Shabbos. 
>  
> > In addition, if it were me'akeves, how would it be
> > mutar to wear four
> > cornered garments bizman hazeh? (Except for those
> > who feel that techeiles
> > has been identified bivadai.)
> 
> Again, I think that is part of the discussion by the
> Rishonim. 

Another question is that if wearing Tzitzit is carrying re a Talis Gadol 
would not the same apply to a Talis Katan.

Are you saying Reb Aharon does not wear a Talis Katan on Shabbos. 
What about those Chassidishe gedolim who wear their tzitit out and you 
see them wearing them outside on Shabbos.

As long as we're talking about t'cheles, I figured I'd ask this...

Over the years, I've seen many people who have a fancy silver atara on
their tallis, and others who have a colorful embroidered one, while still
others have only a plain piece of silky cloth. I had always thought that
these styles were based purely on personal taste, just as one may choose
among many materials for his Chanuka menorah.

But recently, someone mentioned to me that his family has a specific
minhag *not* to have a silver atara on the tallis. This surprised me, but
he showed me where the Aruch Hashulchan (O"C 8:10, by the end) is opposed
to it.

I am wondering what others think about this. Are there specific
communities which have developed clear minhagim in favor of such ataros,
or against them? And if so, what are the reasons behind such minhagim?

Akiva Miller

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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In thinking it over, I come to the following conclusion, and if anyone
wants to support it or contest it, please do --

If someone HOLDS that t'cheles is m'akev the tzitzis, then there is no
difference between weekdays and Shabbos. Just as wearing the tzitzis
outside on Shabbos would be assur because they are non-mitzva tassels, so
too they'd be assur during the week, because they are insufficient to
allow the 4-cornered beged to be worn. The only difference is that
outside on Shabbos would be 2 sins instead of one.

But if one merely QUESTIONS that PERHAPS t'cheles is m'akev, then it is
quite possible that during the week, or indoors on Shabbos, one might
rely on the majority opinion that white tzitzis are indeed sufficient to
allow the 4-cornered beged to be worn. Outdoors on Shabbos, however,
involves a possible chiyuv misa, and so it is quite understandable that
one might want to wear only those tzitzis which meet ALL opinions, rather
than just a majority. Therefore, given the easy option of wearing no
4-cornered beged at all (neither tallis gadol nor tallis katan) that
would easily be the choice.

Akiva Miller

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

Carl has critiqued my posting on a yichus registry where I questioned
the authority of roshei yeshiva who enter the political sphere by giving
their views on elections.  Specifically, I cited the 1972 elections for
US president where some roshei yeshiva were said to have called for
Nixon's reelection.  Carl agrees with those roshei yeshiva and calls
George McGovern, the Democratic candidate, an anti-semite who would not
have aided Israel in the 1973 Yom Kippur war.  He maintains this stance
despite his conclusion that Nixon was a crook and the election was won
through "dirty tricks".   Would not one of those dirty tricks have been
to spread some rumor among orthodox Jewish circles about the supposed
unfriendliness of McGovern.  What evidence can be cited from the many
years of McGovern's political career as a senator and earlier that would
implicate him as a Jew hater?  I, certainly, am not aware of any such
stance.  More to the point, Nixon's overwhelming victory (which had no
need for "dirty tricks" - that was just Nixon's paranoia and need for
complete control) soon created a very serious constitutional crisis in
this country resulting from the burglary of the Watergate office of the
Democratic party and the subsequent Nixon cover up of that crime.
Nixon, himself, as the White House tapes reveal was no friend of Jews.
With his California "mafia" buddies, Haldeman and Ehrlichman, he speaks
disparingly of Jews, including Kissinger.  Nor was the assistance to
Israel given in the 1973 war until ammunition was getting perilously low
(Dayan even implied that Israel might have to sue for peace under Arab
terms) and after the USSR had begun a massive airlift of war supplies to
Syria.  What McGovern would have done instead is obviously not something
that anyone could know.

I do not question the right of roshei yeshiva and other religious
figures to publicize their views on political matters.  I just question
the authoritativeness of such views when it does not deal with specific
halachic matters.  For example, the promise of a candidate to see that
yeshivot have more financial assistance from the government is not, I
feel, an halachic basis for promoting that candidacy.  Voters are
supposed to vote for whom they feel will be best for the city, state,
and country - depending on the office - not just out of some parochial
pocket-book concern that may or may not materialize.  Halachic issues do
tend to appear more in Israeli elections, as Carl observed.  Again,
religious figures must be circumspect in their political pronouncements
lest they lose credibility in the eyes of  the more informed
electorate.  It is more important, it seems to me, that religious
figures engender a kiddush hashem atmosphere than any short-term gains
by religious parties.

Yitzchok Zlochower

In a message dated 1/8/00 9:28:28 PM US Central Standard Time, 
zlochoia@bellatlantic.net writes:

<< Nixon, himself, as the White House tapes reveal was no friend of Jews.
 With his California "mafia" buddies, Haldeman and Ehrlichman, he speaks
 disparingly of Jews, including Kissinger.   >>

I agree. Nixon's anti-semitism was vocal and unambiguous, although he seems 
that at one time or another he expressed similar hatred for a variety of 
minority groups, including blacks, Hispanics, Asian-Americans, centrist 
Republicans, Eastern European immigrants, the Harvard-Wall St.-Washington 
WASP elite, and fading old-time liberals, who are probably the smallest of 
all minority groups.

Who knows about McGovern's views? More the point, who really cares?

David Finch

Harry Weiss wrote:

> >
> > Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 12:58:07 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: Fwd (micha@aishdas.org): Re: Wearing a tallis gadol in public on Shabbos
> >
> > - --- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 11:24:19AM -0800, Harry
> > > Maryles wrote:
> > > :                                            Being a
> > > : Talmid of R. Aaron, I follow his (and I assume all
> > > : Brisker's) logic on the issue.  Since they hold
> > > that a
> > > : lack of T'cheles is MeAkev the Mitzvah of Tzitzis,
> > > : then wearing those fringes sown to the beged sans
> > > : T'cheles serve no purpose and it amounts to
> > > Hotzo'oh.
> > >
> > > I'm a bit surprised. There's a stam mishnah
> > > "techeiles eino me'akaves es
> > > halavan" (and visa versa, if that's ever lima'aseh).
> > > There is much Torah
> > > on the Rambam who says that even so, they are
> > > considered only one mitzvah
> > > of the 613; yet on the same mishnah he uses the fact
> > > that shel rosh isn't
> > > me'akev the shel yad (and visa versa) to prove they
> > > are different mitzvos.
> > > After all, can you be yotzei part of any one chiyuv?
> > > Lulav without esrog?
> >
> > To be honest with you I don't remember that mishna,
> > but I do know that it is not so pashut and I think
> > there is a Machlokes in the Gemorrah about it.  The
> > Rishonim discuss (I think the Rambam  Tosephos and the
> > Rif??) as to whether Techeles is MeAkev or whether
> > Techeles and Lavan are separate mitzvos, and the
> > implications thereof.
> >
> > Can anyone help us out here? Does it have something to
> > do with being Meakeves only l"gabey Shabbos?
> >
> > Never the less I can assure you that R. Aaron does not
> > wear Tzitzis in Reshus HaRabim on Shabbos.
> >
> > > In addition, if it were me'akeves, how would it be
> > > mutar to wear four
> > > cornered garments bizman hazeh? (Except for those
> > > who feel that techeiles
> > > has been identified bivadai.)
> >
> > Again, I think that is part of the discussion by the
> > Rishonim.
>
> Another question is that if wearing Tzitzit is carrying re a Talis Gadol
> would not the same apply to a Talis Katan.
>
> Are you saying Reb Aharon does not wear a Talis Katan on Shabbos.
> What about those Chassidishe gedolim who wear their tzitit out and you
> see them wearing them outside on Shabbos.

That is correct. RAS does not wear talis katan on shabbos except in his house. When he is
elsewhere he wears a talis gadol for davening mincha or maariv as well as for shacharis
because  he holds you need tzitzis for tevilah.
sk

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