Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 260

Thursday, January 6 2000

• Conservatives (was: Registry of Who is a Jew)
• Registry of Who is a Jew
• labor law
• Subject: boys will be boys
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• How a learning-disabled child can help achieve G-d's Perfection (was Boys will be boys)
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Registry of who is a Jew
• Re: Gerus for Marriage
• Re: Conservatives (was: Registry of Who is a Jew)
• Re: Gerus for Marriage
• Re: Conservatives (was: Registry of Who is a Jew)
• Conservative movement: knowing diddly
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"

> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:38:46 EST
> From: DFinchPC@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
> 
> In a message dated 1/5/00 5:01:12 PM US Central Standard Time, 
> jerosenb@hcs.harvard.edu writes:
> 
> << i thought the whole part of conservatism was that there weren't any
>  required beliefs.  
>   >>
> 
> Nope. In principle, Conservative Judaism is big on lots of required beliefs, 

> The differences are both smaller and larger than they might at first seem. 
> The big one: Egalitarianism. 

I think the biggest one is that Conservatives do not accept Torah 
l'Moshe miSinai, and instead believe that it was divinely inspired. 
This is the starting point for the "license" to alter halacha to fit the 
times R"L.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

I'd like to thank RYGB for posting R. Mertzbach's article. It was 
most enlightening to read that the problems sixty years ago were 
similar to the problems we face today (although I wonder if they 
were on anything approaching today's scale). 

Permit me a few observations from the article:

>  Opinion & Comment
> A Call To Save Our Pure Yichus
> by HaRav Yonah Mertzbach
> 
> [In Adar II, 5703 (1943) HaRav Yonah Mertzbach zt'l published the following
> article in the chareidi publication HaDerech, dealing with the disastrous
> halachic problems created by the aliya from Europe. This immigration
> included people disbarred from Jewish marriage, as well as bogus converts to
> Judaism who threatened to mix with the general populace in the Holy Land.
> Because of judicial decisions concerning fictitious conversions and
> recognition of the Reform Movement's activities, and the general problems of
> bogus conversion among Reform, Conservative and Orthodox rabbonim, this
> article has renewed relevance today.]

I think that the Russian aliya poses a much bigger problem (at 
least in terms of numbers) than does the problem of Reform 
conversions from the States. For the last few years, a vast majority 
of the aliya from Russia has been goyim l'chol hadeos. Not even a 
pretense. We read articles in the papers here every day about how 
the "solution" is to give these goyim "Jewish education" in Russia 
so that they will be interested in converting as soon as possible 
after they get here... because once they get here they lose 
interest. Hashem Yishmereinu!

> I approached Agudas Yisroel in order to discuss the problem, and attended
> its conference in Petach Tikva; but nothing at all resulted from that.
> Political questions took precedence there over everything else. 

One factor with which fruhmmer yiddin did not have to contend in 
1943, which is definitely a major factor in Israel today, is the 
Supreme Court. The court has ruled that C and R conversions from 
outside EY must be accepted without question. And while this only 
legally applies to *registration* as a Jew with the Interior Ministry, 
as things currently stand these people cannot marry in Israel. 
Some solution to allow them to marry will likely have to be found. If 
that happens, then IMHO R. Elyashiv and other gdolei Torah are 
likely to conclude that there is no choice and that we must have a 
registry.

> A family from the country in whose rabbinate I once served, emigrated to
> Eretz Yisroel. This family's children are mamzeirim mideOraisa: the father
> married his brother's widow, despite the fact that she had living children
> from her previous husband. It was a clear case of marrying a brother's wife
> without a mitzvah of yibum.

There was a story like this in the papers a couple of years ago - 
involved a family in Beer Sheva if I remember correctly that had 
originally come from one of the Arab countries. 

They wrote bills of divorce
> not according to the halocho and even against the husband's will, as if they
> were Heaven's emissaries to carry out justice. 

I didn't know that "Beis Din" had been around for so long..... 
<cynical grin>

> The nonobservance of Jewish marital laws within the secular leftist
> kibbutzim in Eretz Yisroel is a strict secret that can only partly be
> revealed. 

This is what I alluded to yesterday when I mentioned how my 
Rebbe had told me about using posul witnesses in the Kibbutzim.

> Yirei Shomayim -- the rabbonim in Eretz Yisroel -- have already conferred
> together about what should be done to prevent the many severe aberrations
> that have happened in past marriages. They have made some takonos: two
> witnesses must testify about the chosson and the kallah, 

This is still true today, although as both RAA and I mentioned 
yesterday, it isn't all that it appears to be (and so R. Mertzbach 
notes below).

and the names of
> the intended pair are printed in local newspapers. (Though what have they
> gained by printing the names in the papers if their original homeland is not
> printed too?)

This is done in the Charedi newspapers (I know that HaModea and 
Yated both publish such notices), and I think it is done in HaTzofeh 
(the Mafdal paper) also. But these announcements are a small 
fraction of the marriages that take place in Israel and I'm not sure 
that even all of the fruhm marriages are announced (I didn't even 
know this was a takana until I read this article).

Fascinating article. Thanks for posting it.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

if anyone knows of tshevuot or sources regarding child
labor, benefiting from labor done in third world
nations under cruel working conditions, rights of
workers to decent conditions, etc. could you please
send them to me?  either at this address or fax them
to +972-2-589-9898 c/o Ben Waxman

Thanks in advance

__________________________________________________
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----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 5:04 AM
Subject: Avodah V4 #258
> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 00:52:37 +0200
> From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
> Subject: boys will be boys

First, in the spirit of community, while the majority on
this list are men -- well, there are girls out there that
have the same high-spirits and extra energy that needs to be
channeled constructively.

I think Mrs. Atwood's comment on David HaMelech as  a
positive role model for energetic youth is  to the point.

As to what to do, I have found, from discussions with other
parents (I have girls) that finding a good judo/karate
class, where the teacher spends time on teaching
self-control and not just the "footwork" (and of course with
no Sa'memanim of Avoda Zara) is a great way to postively
channel agressive behavior.

In good classes the teachers emphasize that the purpose of
learning Judo/Karate etc. is _not_ to hit someone -- but to
learn control and _avoid_ direct physical confrontation (but
to be prepared if you have no other choice).  If started
young enough (even 5 yrs. old) this can help agressive kids
gain self-respect and control over their actions.


> > Maybe if Eisav channeled his agressive behavior onto a
football field he
> would
> > have been ok - though never a Yaakov Avinu?
>
> He could have been more than OK, he could have been like
Dovid Hamelech.
> I learned that both these figures in our history had
pretty much the same
> potential which included strong drives needing expression.
Chabad teaches
> that davka Esav's soul had a higher source than Yaakov's-
and fell lower.
> If the boy can harness that inner fire and free himself
from his klipos, he
> can reach a place of great kedusha. Of course, that will
take more than
> football.  (ice hockey might even be necessary- joke)
>
> Can anyone think of appropriate ways to channel this
nature-  aside from
> slinging stones at wolves and taunting giants, not readily
available.
> Dovid Hamelech used music and song for example-  this can
be very powerful
> stuff.
[del]
If David
> hamelech is presented as an alternative, she won't feel
she has a second
> class child because he needs a swimming chug for his extra
energy.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 5:04 AM
Subject: Avodah V4 #258
> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:25:43 -0600
> From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> Subject: Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
>
> Just as there is realpolitik there is realhalacha. If the
halachic reality
> requires an unpleasant resolution, it's tough luck for us.
It becomes, by
> defintion, wise, regardless of potential reprecussions,
real as they too may
> be.

Forgive me, but I really must add my 2 cents worth.

First,  in Israel we have a registry, and it's held by the
Chief Rabbinate/Misrad HaDatot and is based on the psika of
actual court (Beit Din) cases and Eduyot.

Second, what Yated reported (if true!) is setting up a
private registry which by definition divides Am Yisrael
beyond the question of Halacha.   In a country where
chareidi kids sometimes call someone with a Kippa Sruga or a
woman with a  no hair covering a Goy/Shiksa in the street --
I can just imagine them growing up and having to register
"such" people as jewish.

Third, the issue of Yichus is at times dependant on the Psak
of a Beit Din.  Once the issue is handled by too many hands,
people who in the normal course of Psikat Beit Din would
have been declared kosher -- may find themselves kosher in
half the lists and not-kosher for marriage in the other
half.  This will further divide the nation and IMHO is not
justified.

As to the comment of "who are we?" then, while I am far
below the majority on this list as to knowledge, I do know
Pirkei Avot and the ideal Talmid Chacham is _not_ the
sponge....


Shoshana L. Boublil

In line with our discussion about sports, this story shows how
baseball can be a heichi timtza for achieving great things.

Shlomo Godick


-----Original Message-----
From: JMansbach@aol.com <JMansbach@aol.com>
>
>                 Achieving God's Perfection
>                 --------------------------
>
> In  Brooklyn,  New York,  Chush is a school  that  caters to
> learning-disabled  children.  Some children  remain in Chush
> for  their  entire  school   career,  while  others  can  be
> main-streamed into conventional Jewish schools.
>
> At a Chush fund-raising  dinner, the father of a Chush child
> delivered a speech that would never be  forgotten by all who
> attended.
>
> After extolling the school and its dedicated staff, he cried
> out, "Where is the  perfection  in my son Shaya?  Everything
> G-d  does  is done  with  perfection.  But my  child  cannot
> understand  things as other  children  do.  My child  cannot
> remember  facts and figures as other  children do.  Where is
> God's perfection?"
>
> The  audience  was  shocked by the  question,  pained by the
> father's  anguish  and  stilled by the  piercing  query.  "I
> believe," the father answered, "that when G-d brings a child
> like this into the world, the perfection that He seeks is in
> the way people react to this child."
>
> He then told the following story about his son Shaya:
>
> One afternoon  Shaya and his father walked past a park where
> some boys Shaya knew were  playing  baseball.  Shaya  asked,
> "Do you think they will let me play?"  Shaya's  father  knew
> that his son was not at all  athletic  and  that  most  boys
> would  not  want  him on  their  team.  But  Shaya's  father
> understood  that if his son was chosen to play it would give
> him a comfortable sense of belonging.
>
> Shaya's father  approached  one of the boys in the field and
> asked  if  Shaya  could  play.  The boy  looked  around  for
> guidance from his team-mates.
>
> Getting  none, he took matters  into his own hands and said,
> "We are  losing  by six runs and the  game is in the  eighth
> inning.  I guess he can be on our team and  we'll try to put
> him up to bat in the ninth inning."
>
> Shaya's father was ecstatic as Shaya smiled  broadly.  Shaya
> was told to put on a glove and go out to play  short  center
> field.
>
> In the bottom of the eighth  inning,  Shaya's  team scored a
> few runs but was  still  behind by three.  In the  bottom of
> the ninth inning, Shaya's team scored again and now with two
> outs and the bases loaded with the potential  winning run on
> base, Shaya was scheduled to be up.  Would the team actually
> let Shaya bat at this juncture and give away their chance to
> win the game?
>
> Surprisingly,  Shaya was given the bat.  Everyone  knew that
> it was all but impossible because Shaya didn't even know how
> to hold the bat  properly,  let alone hit with it.  However,
> as Shaya  stepped up to the plate, the  pitcher  moved a few
> steps to lob the ball in softly so Shaya  should at least be
> able to make  contact.  The  first  pitch  came in and Shaya
> swung clumsily and missed.  One of Shaya's  team-mates  came
> up to Shaya  and  together  they held the bat and  faced the
> pitcher  waiting for the next pitch.  The pitcher again took
> a few steps forward to toss the ball softly toward Shaya.
>
> As the pitch came in, Shaya and his team-mate  swung the bat
> and  together  they hit a slow ground  ball to the  pitcher.
> The pitcher  picked up the soft  grounder  and could  easily
> have thrown the ball to the first baseman.  Shaya would have
> been out and that  would have ended the game.  Instead,  the
> pitcher  took the  ball and  threw it on a high arc to right
> field, far beyond reach of the first baseman.
>
> Everyone  started  yelling,  "Shaya,  run  to  first. Run to
> first!"  Never  in his  life  had  Shaya  run to  first.  He
> scampered  down the baseline wide eyed and startled.  By the
> time he reached first base, the right  fielder had the ball.
> He could have  thrown  the ball to the  second  baseman  who
> would tag out  Shaya, who was still  running.  But the right
> fielder understood what the pitcher's intentions were, so he
> threw the ball high and far over the third baseman's head.
>
> Everyone  yelled, "Run to second, run to second."  Shaya ran
> towards second base as the runners ahead of him  deliriously
> circled the bases  towards  home.  As Shaya  reached  second
> base, the opposing  short stop ran to him, turned him in the
> direction  of third base and  shouted,  "Run to  third."  As
> Shaya rounded third, the boys from both teams ran behind him
> screaming,  "Shaya  run  home!"  Shaya ran home,  stepped on
> home plate and all 18 boys lifted him on their shoulders and
> made him the hero, as he had just hit a "grand slam" and won
> the game for his team.
>
> That day," said the father  softly  with  tears now  rolling
> down his face,  "those 18 boys reached  their level of G-d's
> perfection."
>

This article is a classic example of the difference between
judging cases in a Beit Din B'fnei Hashem and discussing
them from a theoretical point of view.

He brings 2 examples:

a)  a family in which the husband an wife were forbidden to
marry and have offspring
b) a woman who is an arusa and appears to need a Get prior
to marrying in Israel.

While the learned rabbi apears to be correct in his
characterization of the kids as mamzerim, he is obviously
not a Dayan for he would then know that _A person is NOT a
mamzer until a Beit Din declares him/her to be one_!!!!

So his stating categorically that the kids are mamzerim can
actually be considered as coming under the header of Lashon
HaRa.   What he should do (and I think he did) was to go to
a Beit Din and give Eidut that this is the situation (you
need 2 eidim!) and if he has documentation he should bring
it.

It would then be up to the Beit Din to notify the official
existing Israeli registry and when the kids wish to marry --
further Eidim and documentation will probably make it's way
to court and the Beit Din will decide if indeed they are
mamzerim or not.

I know of cases where it appeared obvious that the kids were
mamzerim, but further investigation proved that
_halachically_ the kids were _not_ mamzerim.  I have seen
other, tragic cases where a child who the mother, from
russia, approached rabbis in Israel about what to do with
her eldest daughter, thinking that the girl was a mamzer --
and discovered that this girl was fine, but there was a
question about the kids from her second marriage (B"H this
too turned out to be a false alarm after all the evidence
was in).

So we see that a private registry would not only _not_ have
solved the problem -- but would have caused people to think
that someone who was kosher -- was a mamzer.

The second case too needs  a competent Beit Din and Eizer
Hashem to determine if there were Kosher Eidim etc. before
paskening so easily that she is an halachic Arusa that needs
a Get.

Don't forget -- this is the power of Beit Din to declare
Tahor or Tameh, Mamzer or Kosher (for marriage).  This is
Dinei Nefashot.  This should not be left in the hands of
anyone but expert Dayanim who sit together, 3, and with
Eizer Hashem hear the evidence and pasken.

After reading this article I am even more convinced that a
private registry will be a disaster to the Jewish Nation.

Shoshana L. Boublil

RYGB quoted from a Yated article: <<
For a year or two the Jewish Agency did not even bother asking the religion
and faith of the immigrants' wives when they handed them a certificate of
aliya. They and their Christian wives, and their halachically non-Jewish
children, made aliya, and more children were later born here.  >>

To bring a concrete example, in an interview with the press a couple of
years ago the former Ramatcal (Chief-of-Staff of the Israel Defense Forces)
and then-Minister of Agriculture Rafael ("Raful") Eitan admitted that his
mother was an evangelical Christian who came to Eretz Yisrael after
fleeing religious persecution in the former Soviet Union.  (At one point
Eitan was considered a serious candidate for Prime Minister.)

KT,
Shlomo Godick
 

R' Micha Berger wrote:
> I looked at the Sh"A Y"D 268:12, didn't take long, the lashon is identical 
to
>the Rambam's. With the same maskanah, as I read it: Conversion for marriage
>isn't inherently pasul. However, since we have reason to believe that he
>was not mekabeil ol mitzvos, "chosheshin lo ad sheyisbareier tzidkaso".

I don't see your reading. The Shulchan Aruch says:
"If he was not checked out, or if he was not informed of the reward for 
Mitzvot and their punishments, and he was circumcised and he immersed before 
three regular Joe's, he is a convert, even if it is known that he converted 
for some reason. Since he was circumcised and he immersed, he has left the 
class of idolaters."

Wait - I see your problem (but I'm not letting my translation here go to 
waste)!

"veChoshishim Lo Ad sheYisbareir Tzidkaso" is a throwback to the beginning of 
the Se'if - it is talking about someone who has not yet converted.

For simple proof (aside from the inherent contradiction that your reading 
would introduce in the line), see Beiur HaGra 28 there.

Mordechai
Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf

On Thu, Jan 06, 2000 at 09:25:17AM +0200, Carl Sherer wrote:
: I think the biggest one is that Conservatives do not accept Torah 
: l'Moshe miSinai, and instead believe that it was divinely inspired. 

I agree. Despite the other poster who said there is a variety of opinion on
the matter, Documentary Hypothesis is what is taught at JTSA -- not only in
a course on that subject alone, but also as a given in other courses. Their
understanding of the text isn't based on the notion of derashos being miSinai,
but on differing authors, editing mistakes, etc... Derashos are portrayed
as a Rabbinic device for changing halachah and yet still claiming loyalty
to the text.

According to a more vocal C Rabbi on soc.culture.jewish, it's possible to
believe in Torah miSinai and still be a C Rabbi, but your beliefs would be
considered by your peers to be odd or quaint.

: This is the starting point for the "license" to alter halacha to fit the 
: times R"L.

More like a post-facto justification. The "historical approach" started before
Shechter brought DH to JTS.

Derashos are portrayed as a Rabbinic device for changing halachah and yet
still claiming loyalty to the text, r"l. As Carl writes, it fits their claim
that halachah always changed in the ways they are changing them now.

The fact they they do things to tannaitic precedent that an Amora never would
is overlooked, of course.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  6-Jan-00: Chamishi, Vaera
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 95a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

On Thu, Jan 06, 2000 at 08:59:27AM -0500, Pawshas@aol.com wrote:
:                " Since he was circumcised and he immersed, he has left the 
: class of idolaters."
...
: "veChoshishim Lo Ad sheYisbareir Tzidkaso" is a throwback to the beginning of 
: the Se'if - it is talking about someone who has not yet converted.

I disagree, obviously. First, there's no reason to say that the Mechabeir,
and before him the Rambam, went from one case to another and then jumped
back to the first.

: For simple proof (aside from the inherent contradiction that your reading 
: would introduce in the line), see Beiur HaGra 28 there.

No, my reading is "he left the *kelal* of goyim and you worry about him..."
IOW, he loses the vada'us of being a non-Jew, and enters the realm of safeik.
The Gra is pretty clear that we hold both sides lechumrah.

My understanding was formed when seeing it in the Rambam, who clearly
states in an earlier halachah that the wives of Shimshon and Shelomo were
not described by the pasuk as Jews. He very clearly states that bidi'eved,
someone who went through the rituals of conversion solely for the purpose
of marriage is not a Jew. It's proving that it was *solely* for that purpose
that is near impossible, and therefore creates cheshash.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  6-Jan-00: Chamishi, Vaera
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 95a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 1/6/00 1:23:31 AM US Central Standard Time, 
sherer@actcom.co.il writes:

<< I think the biggest one is that Conservatives do not accept Torah 
 l'Moshe miSinai, and instead believe that it was divinely inspired. 
 This is the starting point for the "license" to alter halacha to fit the 
 times R"L.
  >>

I agree that the Conservative movement tolerates those whose attitude is, 
"Well, something happened at Sinai, but we really don't know what it was." 
There are, however, many Conservative Jews who sincerely believe in Torah 
l'Moshe m'Sinai. Their belief is tolerated, even commended, within the 
Conservative movement. The big problem is that in the end the movement really 
doesn't care what its members (and rabbis) think about this point. 

David Finch

"The big
problem with the Conservative movement is it's
theological basis. Without getting into details,
Orthodoxy considers the Conservative movement's
beliefs to be heretical.  The most extreme example opf
this is the Reconstructionist Movement (a branch
within the Conservative movement). The
Reconstructionists do NOT believe in G-d.  They
believe G-d is not an external G-d but an
internal/personal one, or some such nonsense.  Yet
theirs is accepted as legitimate thought within their
Halachic framework.  How ridiculous is that!! So, by
proclaiming themselves loyal to the Torah they argue
that they are just interperating the Torah differently
then we are.(But of course so do the Christians.) The
argument that they are Halachists rings true to an
innocent member of the movement who doesn't know
diddly (sp?) about his own movement."

It seems you don't know diddly about the Conservative movement.
Disagree with it if you want, but your inclusion of the phrase "or some such 
nonsense" and your comparison of C Judaism to Christianity (!) betray an 
ignorance of the theology which you seem to know is heretical.  Your 
characterization of Reconstructionism as a branch of Conservatism is also 
inaccurate.

Sholem Berger
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--- j e rosenbaum <jerosenb@hcs.harvard.edu> wrote:
> 
> > The real question is with the Conservative
> movement. 
> > They claim to be Halachists.  The degree of
> Mitzvah
> > observance amongst them runs the entire spectrum
> of
> > virtually complete observance to almost none. The
> big
> > problem with the Conservative movement is it's
> > theological basis. Without getting into details,
> > Orthodoxy considers the Conservative movement's
> > beliefs to be heretical.  
> 
> i thought the whole part of conservatism was that
> there weren't any
> required beliefs.  

I believe you are correct.  There was a battle royal
amongst the founding fathers in the early days of the
movement whether to keep Conservatism Halacha based or
not.  The Halachists won the day as long as Louis
Finkelstien was chancelor, but from the days of Gerson
Cohen and onwards, there was sort of a creeping
abandonment of Halacha until they came out with their
statement of doctrine entitled (I believe) "Emunah
V'Deah", which in effect accepts non-belief (ie does
not require belief), while still claiming Halacha as
the guiding principle.
> 
> > The most extreme example opf
> > this is the Reconstructionist Movement (a branch
> > within the Conservative movement). The
> > Reconstructionists do NOT believe in G-d.  
> 
> reconstructionism is not within the conservative
> movement.  
> i believe that mordechai kaplan (its founder) even
> had orthodox smicha
> before deciding that god was a metaphor.

I believe you are correct about Kaplan's Orthodox
smicha.  I think he was a practicing Jew, but an
apostate, until the day of his death.  

Reminds me of a joke. 

A young apostate who was a rabble rouser wanted to
create havoc by publicly desecrating as much Halacha
as possible.  He heard about an old apikores who lived
in another town and embarked on a journey to see if he
could inlist his aid in dioing so. When he arrived he
went to the shul where he was told he could find the
old apikores.  As he walked into the Shul and the
apostate was pointed out to him he saw the apikores
Davening Shmone Esreh with a talis on his head
"shuckling" like a Yeshiva bachur. Obviously, the
young man was disturbed by what he saw. When the old
man took his three steps back, the young man said to
him, "I don't understand. I heard that you were the
formost Apostate in the land and here I walk in and
find you davening like this.  So the Old man turned to
him angrily and  said,  I'm an Apikores, NOT a
Shegetz!

I think that Mordecai Kaplan was an Apikores not a
Shegetz.

In any case I believe that you are correct here, too.
Reconstructionism has broken with Consevatism and
declared themselves an independant branch.
 
> presently, very few reconstructionists follow
> kaplan's thought in this
> respect --- the current motto of reconstructionism
> is "the past should
> have a vote, not a veto" (kaplan's motto), and this
> is what attracts 
> most people.  they want to have a semi-halachic
> observance which is 
> "progressive" and "meaningful."  i'm not sure of all
> the consequences 
> of this, though one of the results is that it's
> socially liberal and
> more common in university towns.  among some groups,
> this might be the 
> only difference between reconstructionism and
> conservatism.  i have 
> the sense that it attracts those coming from the
> right who might 
> otherwise leave judaism entirely.

If I am not mistaken Reconstructionists are more
ritual oriented than Conservatives.

HM 
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