Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 255

Wednesday, January 5 2000

• Prerogatives of a King
• Re: Sports
• RE: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• RE: Avodah V4 #252
• RE: murder most foul
• RE: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• RE: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: LeChumrah/LeKulah
• MURDER-IS-CRAZY
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• RE: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Body parts
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Moshe Rabbeinu's Free Will
• Re: Moshe's free will, objective psak, some other issues
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re[2]: LeChumrah/LeKulah

On 4 Jan 00, at 22:28, Eli Turkel wrote:

> > Rambam Hilchos Melochim Perek 4. says that a king can spend money 
> > on battles and for his own and his servants needs.
> 
> Carl responded
> <<
> What are his own needs? Who is to say what a king needs and 
> what he doesn't need? That sounds like a pretty open-ended 
> spending provision to me. As I read the Rambam, he can take 
> whatever he wants from whomever he wants. He is supposed to 
> pay for it (kind of like eminent domain), but since he can't be called 
> before a Beis Din, I don't see where anyone can contest the value 
> he places on whatever he takes. Yes, he is supposed to act l'shem 
> shamayim (4:10), but if he doesn't, I don't see where his public has 
> the right to take any action against him.
> 
> > There is nothing there about a king's right for "civil rule",
> > i.e. can a king spend money on public parks?
> 
> If he feels that he or his servants need public parks, I would say the 
> answer is yes.
> 
> > There is certainly nothing i saw that says a king can give money
> > to whomever he feels like it.
> 
> If it fulfills his needs (whatever they may happen to be) I think he 
> can give money to whomever he pleases. Suppose the king wants 
> to give me money so he pays me an outrageous sum of money to 
> come and keep him company. Wouldn't that be permitted 
> according to the Rambam? Isn't that giving money to whomever he 
> feels like giving it to?
> >>
> 
> I am not all convinced. In Melachim 4:6 Rambam says that he gave
> fields to his servants when they are in battle. In general Rambam
> allows taxes of 10% and for the moshiach 1/13.
> I don't see anything that allows a king arbitrary power, see especially
> the story with the vineyard of navot.
> I still believe that a king can spend money only if he can justify it
> not just for any whim for some stranger.

The Rambam does seem to limit the taking of fields to places 
where they are in battle and where there is no other place from 
which to take food. 

But the Nosei Keilim on the Rambam seem to start from the 
premise that Kerem Nevos would have been mutar had Achav done 
it correctly or had Achav been a king on all of Klal Yisroel and not 
just on part of it. The Hagohos Maimoni on that halacha brings two 
teirutzim from Tosfos in Sanhedrin 20b - that Achav could have 
taken it for his servants but not for himself, and that Achav could 
have *taken* the field (for free) but that he tried to purchase it 
instead. Tosfos there brings two other teirutzim, one that Achav 
was punished because he wanted the field for Avoda Zara, and 
another because it was a sdei achuza and that the halacha of the 
king taking fields applies only to a sdei mikne and not to a sdei 
achuza. The HM brings the latter teirutz in the name of R. 
Vardemas. He brings another teirutz b'shem R. Shimon Meibel, 
which says that the reason Achav could not take the field was that 
he was not the king on all of Israel. The Ridvaz would place 
limitations on the King's ability to take property (only for his 
servants in wartime), and the Radak (Mlochim 1 21, 10) would limit 
it further to taking only the fruits and not the field itself. But the 
other teirutzim all seem to place few limitations on a king's power 
to take other people's property.

The implications of this for my other argument on this list regarding 
melech are IMHO staggering.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:


> I understood that kid had actually enrolled at Maryland but that the 
> school reneged on the promise that he wouldn't have to play on 
> Shabbos. Glad to see he had the principles to leave.



Actually, I was corrected. He's going to a different state school here in
Baltimore. 

Maybe I should read the sports pages? But that would mean I'd have to get
the newspaper.


---sam

> how does one apply the dictum that one shouldn't uncover a mamzer?
> (in sanhedrin?)  it seems clear from this that one shouldn't look too
> deeply into another's past, but certainly those making the
> proposal must have another view.


That's when Rov Israel Kasherim -- which is the real problem today (and in
the future).

Akiva


A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

> 
> Was there a community before this one that had access to madda and yet
> questioned the correctness of including it?
> 

Would you include "Greek Wisdom" in madda? 

Akiva


A reality check a day keeps 
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274  

> Legally sane, criminally sane, morally culpable, liable for the full

Doesn't "legally insane" mean the inability to distinguish between right
actions and wrong action (as defined by society)? That was the definition I
learned 20 years ago in psych.


Akiva

>
> Every person who wishes to marry in Israel has to bring to
> the local rabbinate 2 kosher witnesses who can bear witness
> that the person is single and jewish.

I know from first hand experience that this check is basically worthless --
when I was in yeshiva (A BT yeshiva) all a choson would do was ask two
friends to go down with him. No background check, no knowledge of his
background, no questions.

Akiva


A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

>  The more I think
> about it, the more of a nightmere it seems to become.

And the alternative isn't a worse nightmare?

Akiva


A reality check a day keeps 
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274  

The Nishmat Avraham (YD 69 # 1) discusses permissibility of salt
substitutes in Melicha. He rules to permit use of potassium chloride
or ammonium chloride withthe proviso that the patient is on a strict
salt-restricted diet. An article in  NOAM (Chelek Yod p. 180) with the
proviso that a much larger amount of the salt substitute is used than
usual for melicha. He also quotes Rav Neuberth as permitting this.

However, he also brings down a contrary position (SHU"T Tirosh V'Yitzhar
218) that mentioned that a meeting of the Agudat HaRabbanim (80 years ago ?)
forbade the use of salt substitutes for melicha.

BTW a recent abstract in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology
(1997) indicated that paradoxically salt actually improves heart rate
variability. So IMHO this further limits the permissibility of allowing
salt substitutes in melicha.

Josh

Based on the pasuk in Isaiah 1:18, "Come now,
let us reason together [n'vachacha], saith the
Lord," haRav, Y.D.Soleveichik held that all sin
derives from a lack of analysis.  If one were to
examine the consequences thoroughly, no one would
sin, uneconomical spiritually and morally, not to
speak of materially, too.

What a powerful analysis!  Brisk?

__Bob Werman
rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il
Jerusalem

On 5 Jan 00, at 0:34, j e rosenbaum wrote:

> 
> On Tue, Jan 04, 2000 at 07:16:31PM -0800, Harry Maryles wrote:
> > This is the crux of the argument that is used by the
> > Orthodox when trying to persuade the Conservative and
> > Reform that All coversions should be done by The
> > Orthodox Rabbinate.  The argument is that only in this
> > way will ALL denominations consider the convert to be
> > a Jew, since the Orthodox cannot, and do not acccept
> > Conservative and Reform conversions, but both of those
> > denominations accept Orthodox conversions.  So why not
> > just have one standard that everyone accepts?
> > (Insurance, if you will)  
>  
> the Neeman commission is trying.  their first converts should come out
> within the year or so?

The Commission's converts still have to be converted by the 
Rabbanut which will have sole power to say yes or no. So being in 
the institution is not a guarantee that you will be able to convert.

Furthermore, the institution established by the Neeman 
Commission did not (unless there was a last minute change - but 
my facts are correct as of Monday's Post) receive any funding in 
the government budget for 2000. That makes it unlikely that it will 
last very long.

> > But we know what the response of the Conservative and
> > Reform has been: NO WAY.  They consider it an insult
> > to the integrity of the movement and will never accept
> > Orthodox criteria as the only method of conversion. 
> > And so do they preach to their flock.  Of course, any
> > sincere convert would want acceptance by all
> > denominations and would accept the "insurance" of an
> > Orthodox conversion. 
> 
> if they could promise to be (orthodoxly) observant in the first place, 
> why would they be converting to reform or conservative?  

Because they see it Conservative and Reform conversions as 
quicker and easier. 

Many of the converts here in Israel are foreign workers who are 
converting only so that they can stay here, or people who are 
coming in under the unfortunate amendment to Chok HaShvut (the 
Law of Return) which provides that *grandchildren* of converts are 
considered Jewish (that lets them into the country but does not let 
them marry). They are willing to do whatever they have to be 
considered "Jewish." 

BTW - for those who didn't realize it - Conservative and Reform 
conversions outside of Israel are ALREADY recognized here for 
purposes of the Law of Return, but are not recognized by the 
Rabbanut for purposes of marriage.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 5 Jan 00, at 0:21, j e rosenbaum wrote:

>  
> > The kind of evidence requested is the grandmother's ketuba;
> > description of how the grandmother/grandfather described
> > holidays (you would be surprised how easy it is at times to
> > discover frauds just from simple questions).  Other evidence
> > is requested if necessary etc.
> 
> Russian olim can pass these tests?  

There are lots of forgeries. Russians tend to come in through the 
Shlichim in Russia who are much more lenient with them. Often 
they are allowed to pass by saying that the documents were lost in 
Russia. Once they have documents from a Shaliach of the Jewish 
Agency in Russia, those documents are the only ones checked 
until they try to marry. This is why Sharansky wanted so badly to 
be Interior Minister - Shas and before it Mafdal, who held the 
Interior Ministry for many many years, refused to register these 
people as Jewish on their identity cards.

I think it's important to realize that the standard of living in Israel 
has risen so much in the last 10-15 years that we are an attractive 
destination for many Eastern Europeans. When you add to that the 
fact that between 1992-96 thousands of foreign workers were 
admitted (to replace the Palestinians who could not work because 
of closures) and that Israeli industry became dependent upon 
them, people coming from countries like Romania will find whole 
communities here. Those people are trying to avoid being deported 
by converting (the government is ostensibly making an effort to 
deport them).

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 5 Jan 00, at 8:53, Akiva Atwood wrote:

> >
> > Every person who wishes to marry in Israel has to bring to
> > the local rabbinate 2 kosher witnesses who can bear witness
> > that the person is single and jewish.
> 
> I know from first hand experience that this check is basically worthless --
> when I was in yeshiva (A BT yeshiva) all a choson would do was ask two
> friends to go down with him. No background check, no knowledge of his
> background, no questions.

I can also confirm this based on an experience when I was working 
in Tel Aviv. Unless something arouses their suspicions, it is often 
the case that no questions are asked. Once the Beis Din becomes 
suspicious, however, they can send you running around in circles 
(I've had that happen too).

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 4 Jan 00, at 19:16, Harry Maryles wrote:

> But we know what the response of the Conservative and
> Reform has been: NO WAY.  They consider it an insult
> to the integrity of the movement and will never accept
> Orthodox criteria as the only method of conversion. 
> And so do they preach to their flock.  Of course, any
> sincere convert would want acceptance by all
> denominations and would accept the "insurance" of an
> Orthodox conversion. 
> 
> Problem is... many if not most conversions aren't
> really sincere.

I think it's more than just that.

Even when conversions are sincere, I think there are a lot of people 
out there who don't know, who think this is "just politics" and other 
such platitudes. I question whether the average convert truly 
appreciates that there is a difference. 

BTW - on the aliya list in which I participate, most people will (non-
judgmentally) warn someone who comes on and says they are 
(becoming) a convert that they will have problems marrying here if 
they come as any kind of non-Orthodox convert.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 4 Jan 00, at 22:25, Isaac A Zlochower wrote:

> As a new subscriber to the avodah list I have already encountered a
> chidush - that some people bury orlahs and, even, baby teeth.  I have 4
> sons, and the mohel for the oldest is a well-known talmid chacham.  No
> mohel ever informed me what I should do with the foreskins, nor have I
> previously heard of their burial.  In fact, some Sephardim consider the
> orlah a segulah for something or other.  Perhaps this is a secret that
> mohelim have.  They just keep the foreskins and bury them.

To tell the truth, the only reason I heard about it with my third son 
is that the bris was on Shabbos and therefore the Mohel could not 
take the orla with him. He left it in a cup of dirt (that I prepared for 
him before Shabbos) in a corner of the shul, and told me to come 
back after Shabbos and bury it. My oldest son was a Yom Tov bris 
(Rosh HaShanna) but the mohel stayed for Rosh HaShana which is 
probably why I didn't hear it then; I'm sure he took care of it 
himself. My second son was a Chol HaMoed bris, so I would not 
have heard it then either. The mohel would have taken care of it 
himself.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 4 Jan 00, at 23:43, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:

> HM says that "there has to be another way".  I agree.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> > Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:59:00 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
> "It seems that R.
> > Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, (along with others in Torah
> > leadership positions) has decided to set up  an
> > independent registry to keep track of who is Jewish."
> 
> The situation today is that while a person who is not
> halachically jewish, may have "jewish" written for his
> nationality, when he/she comes to wed, as they are jewish
> they are subject to the Chief Rabbinate and the Batei Din
> Rabaniyim.
> 
> Every person who wishes to marry in Israel has to bring to
> the local rabbinate 2 kosher witnesses who can bear witness
> that the person is single and jewish.

That's true if they wed (a) in Israel and (b) through the Rabbanut. 
However, many Israelis wed in Cyprus, many wed via proxy in 
Paraguay, and there are a limited number of C and R rabbis who 
actually have certification to conduct weddings here (although I 
think in the latter case the couple would still need the normal 
license through the Rabbanut). 

Also, I suspect civil marriage in Israel may be inevitable - that's 
where this whole fight is really leading (for those of you in chu"l 
who are now totally confused - in Israel all matters of "personal 
status," i.e. marriage, divorce, burial and so on, are governed by 
the religious court of your religion. Thus a Jew cannot legally marry 
in Israel except through the Rabbinate. Many secular Israelis avoid 
the Rabbinate by travelling to Cyprus to marry - about an hour 
away by plane - or by marrying in Paraguay via proxy. You then 
take your marriage certificate to the Foreign Ministry and you are 
considered legally married).

Add another problem to the mix - mamzeirus - which someone 
alluded to last night. Twenty plus years ago when I was a bochur 
one of my Rebbeim told me that when the Rabbanut conducted 
weddings in the frei kibbutzim where they suspected that people 
might "sleep around" they specifically took posul witnesses to 
avoid mamzeirus problems R"L. I don't know if that still goes on 
today.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 4 Jan 00, at 22:43, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> I'd think that in the Chicago area, for instance, a modern Orthodox 
> north-suburban rabbi could do a nice business handling conversions within the 
> Conservative community, because his work carries a guarantee. Conservative 
> conversions do not, at least not necessarily in Israel. 

This was tried about 15 years ago in another community a bit west 
of Chicago. It fell apart when (a) it became public through an 
expose in the local Jewish newspaper and (b) the Rabbanut in 
Israel found out about it and refused to recognize ANY conversions 
from that city until it was resolved and the arrangement disbanded. 
BTW it was "official." There was more than one O rabbi involved.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.

----- Original Message -----
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: Moshe Rabbeinu's Free Will


> On Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 02:43:19PM +0200, Mrs. Gila Atwood wrote:
> : Re Micha Berger's post-  I'm not sure what you mean by your
identification
> : of two levels as one.
> : Please enlighten me.
>
> That's what I intended to do with the following (which you quote).
>
> :> Moshe's anava & work of spiritual refinement led him to be zocheh to a
> :> degree of yedias Hashem which enabled him to see through  a clear
> :> aspaklaria.
>
> IOW, one doesn't *earn* "seeing" HKBH bi'aspaklaria hame'ira by having a
> certain level of yedi'ah. Rather, that level of yedi'ah is what the
expression
> "aspaklaria hame'ira" refers to. They aren't two steps, but one.

I agree-  that's what I was trying to say.  The "enables" does not imply
another step but is an aspect of the same step.

>
> I don't understand. If in the ideal Moshe should have taken initiative,
then
> his *choosing* to receive a directive was (lulei dimitztafina hayisi omer)
an
> incorrect use of his bechirah.

Could he really choose to receive?  The directive, the nevuah is not linked
to MR'sl, but is part of G-d's ratzon.  Before MR receives the directive he
wouldn't be chayav for violating ratzon Hashem, but he could blow an
important  potential as Reb Brown suggests. (This potential is crucial.  It
seems that G-d left this in MR's hands to test his leadership-  to test that
"yesh" I mentioned in a previous post) This is the idea discussed in Likutei
Mehoran #20.  It's quite a long discussion, but I'll bring it to the list if
members are interested.     Mrs. GA
>

Someone wrote:
>  If you find out afterwards that the person went
>  through the motions for ulterior motives and was no mekabeil ol mitzvos,
>  the conversion never occurred.

This is untrue. See Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 268:12.

Mordechai Torczyner
Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf

#1 Undoubtedly R. Weiss was/is a machmir. My point was that despite his 
tendency, he could be decisive and take a position that cuts both ways.  I will 
take more of this off-list if you wish... 

#2  Consider it an illustration not an extgrpolation. It was my impression, 
mostly from R. Gorelick, that the Brisker Derech was about finding a precise 
definition. (never mind Brisker shiurim etc.!)

IOW, we were prodded and pushed to get to a definition that "cut both ways"

Another EG.  The Rav's shito on aveilus during Sefiro 

Music is ok (in private)

Socializing is not even w/o music, EG Baseball games - sorry no football during 
Sefiro <smile>)

IOW, by defining "Simcha Mmerieus" as THE criteria, the chumros and kulos flowed
forth naturally.

My general impression re: YU's derech was to get at root definitions and 
principles via analysis (usually but not necessarily - Brisker style).  Once the
salient point was discoverd, it became the operative principle.

I would suggest that YU musmachim are by and large far more independent than are
Musmachim from other Yeshivos.  This was - imho - based upon being encouraged to
analyze and decide things independently and to take clear-cut stands.

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


Two observations:
1. I also learned Yoreh Deah by Rav Weiss Shlita (who was also the Rav at my 
Bris!), and there were times when he ruled leHachmir both ways on Inyanim.

2.  Why extrapolate a "YU" position from Rav Weiss's position? There were 
many things YU did of which he did (and I imagine still does) disapprove. 
Further, R' Genack also teaches Yoreh Deah; perhaps he would disagree?

Mordechai Torczyner

*********************


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