Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 252

Tuesday, January 4 2000

• Hasivo - humor alert
• [none]
• playing ball
• Re[2]: murder is crazy
• Re[2]: Avodah V4 #249
• moshav leitzim and history
• Re[2]: Boys will be boys
• Re: murder is crazy
• native americans
• R. Lessin
• Registry of Jews
• Re[2]: murder is crazy (was baruch goldstein V4#238)
• murder most foul
• RE: Registry of Jews
• Re: sports
• Re[2]: murder is crazy
• Re: murder most foul
• Re: YU is a Litvishe yeshiva in the mold of Volozhin (?) Curious objections(?)
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re:Brisker Rav and his Nephew
• Re: Re[2]: Baseball halochoh
• Re: Re[2]: Boys will be boys
• Re: murder most foul
• Re: murder most foul

So would you say that women who are NOT mesubin at the Seder are leaning on the 
Rabyo instead <smile>?

Rich Wolpoe

Subject: Re: perogatives of a king

> > > > 
> > > > A Jewish king does not have to justify any expenditure.
> > > > 
> > > I am not convinced of this.
> > > He certainly has the right to spend on his household and on an army
> > > and to build roads.
> > > I would doubt that he can distribute money freely to his friends.
> > > What are legitimate needs can be discussed but I again assume they
> > > have to be rationale.
> > 
> > 
> 
> Rambam Hilchos Melochim Perek 4. says that a king can spend money 
> on battles and for his own and his servants needs.

Carl responded
<<
What are his own needs? Who is to say what a king needs and 
what he doesn't need? That sounds like a pretty open-ended 
spending provision to me. As I read the Rambam, he can take 
whatever he wants from whomever he wants. He is supposed to 
pay for it (kind of like eminent domain), but since he can't be called 
before a Beis Din, I don't see where anyone can contest the value 
he places on whatever he takes. Yes, he is supposed to act l'shem 
shamayim (4:10), but if he doesn't, I don't see where his public has 
the right to take any action against him.

> There is nothing there about a king's right for "civil rule",
> i.e. can a king spend money on public parks?

If he feels that he or his servants need public parks, I would say the 
answer is yes.

> There is certainly nothing i saw that says a king can give money
> to whomever he feels like it.

If it fulfills his needs (whatever they may happen to be) I think he 
can give money to whomever he pleases. Suppose the king wants 
to give me money so he pays me an outrageous sum of money to 
come and keep him company. Wouldn't that be permitted 
according to the Rambam? Isn't that giving money to whomever he 
feels like giving it to?
>>

I am not all convinced. In Melachim 4:6 Rambam says that he gave
fields to his servants when they are in battle. In general Rambam
allows taxes of 10% and for the moshiach 1/13.
I don't see anything that allows a king arbitrary power, see especially
the story with the vineyard of navot.
I still believe that a king can spend money only if he can justify it
not just for any whim for some stranger.

Eli

> 
>  My end point is gedolim do not come from listing to sports games .Like
> RAV Shkop said you want to exercise take long walks and  memorize points
> of gemarah with a chavrusa.

I don't know about gedolim but Rav Lichtenstein was reputed to be
a good basketball player. When I was in camp (eons ago) Rav Dovid
Cohen (then a rav in the camp today a major posek in Flatbush)
sometimes joined us for basketball

I suspect gedolim in America are brought up differently than Rav Shimon Shkop.

Eli Turkel

See Mishna Makkos 1:10



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: murder is crazy 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/4/2000 2:13 PM


On Tue, Jan 04, 2000 at 02:00:04PM -0500, Allen Baruch wrote:
: Why then were they so careful as to lean over backwards in order 
: not to kill?

I originally formed this position while arguing with a Reform Jew about 
Shabbos and chiyuv misah. Mid-polemic isn't really when people tend to 
stand back and think about the consequences of their idea.

Thinking out loud... perhaps if capital punishment were more frequent, 
society would view life as cheap? We also just explained the primary cause 
for that rarity, because we want both elements of: a- a serious act; b- the 
act should be motivated by rebelliousness to the extent that it's more 
important to the person than the consequences.

I'm not sure, though, about my premise. I'd be happier if I found more mekoros 
for saying that beis din is more concerned with organizing society than with 
judging individuals. Anyone want to give me a hand?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 30-Dec-99: Chamishi, Shemos 
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 91b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

You are missing the piece in which someoen questioned if Lamm were advocating 
Torah umadda for everybody at least that's how I understood an earlier post's 
rhehotrical question.

So I was merely illustrating that YU people were aware that Torah umadda is NOT 
for everybody.

This is in contradisctinction to some institutions who apprarently "preach" that
that their derech is correct for all.

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #249 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/4/2000 1:14 PM


What am I missing here? Is there more of a hava amina that YU is for 
everybody than there is that a traditional yeshiva is for everybody?

I think we may be experiencing reverse-elitism here.

Aaron

"IOW, YU - as represented by R. Miller who was more-or-less Dr. Belkin's #2 
man -
was aware it was not for everybody."

> 
> The gemara in Avodah Zarah (26b or is it 16b?) lists certain activities that are
> assur because of moshav leitzim.  I'm sure historians could help us out in 
> understanding exactly what these activities are but I'm pretty sure they consist
> of stadium entertainment (probably gladiators) and plays in theatres.  

On the other hand Rambam seems to say that learning history is a waste of time.

Eli Turkel

Our "local" newspaper - The "Bergen" Record - runs x-rated ads on the sports 
pages.  I understand that they figure that the macho types read the Sports pages
and those macho types are their targeted audience, but it's a shame that I feel 
I need to hide the sports pages from my son....

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Boys will be boys 
 DFinchPC@aol.com writes:

<< With all the real dangerous garbage out there, keeping track of who's 
batting 
 what in the National League is harmless. It might even be beneficial, even 
 for future Torah geniuses who will lead our people back from where we, the 
 wiser ones, have put ourselves. >>

I agree wholeheartedly with R' David's point. I only point out that the 
typical Sports Channels one finds on Television also include a great deal of 
material not appropriate for young B'nei Torah. (Beach Volleyball, Beer 
Commercials, Female Bodybuilding, etc.)

<snip>

Jordan   

Me:
: I'm not sure, though, about my premise. I'd be happier if I found more
: mekoros for saying that beis din is more concerned with organizing society
: than with judging individuals. Anyone want to give me a hand?

On Tue, Jan 04, 2000 at 03:39:34PM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
: See Mishna Makkos 1:10

What does the frequency of applications of capital punishement have to do
with organizing society vs. judging individuals?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 30-Dec-99: Chamishi, Shemos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 91b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

RAaron writes:<In response to Michael Frankel's comment, In spite of
considerations
afforded their gay students, I was not aware how considerate YU has been
toward the plight of, and discrimination against, Native Americans,
regardless of where they had been trained. Having studied in Ner Israel
myself where virtually all the staff members were Caucasion, I find this
fact astonishing, yet refreshing.
Aaron
"to one where the roshei yeshiva and administartion are completely native
americans and trained essentially locally">

i am unable to adequately express my appreciation for r aaron's supportive
comments.  while yu alums do not feel we ought be congratulated merely for
doing the right thing, it is nevertheless good that outsiders should view
these exercises in simple humanity as a positive act.  the only faintly
puzzling element is the notion that someone from ner yisroel might find such
behavior, conforming as it does to a happy confluence of common yosher with
the legal imperatives which undergird our civil society, astonishing.  but
as it was refreshing as well, i'm confident the spirit of tolerance is
beginning to catch on even amidst the insularity of all those baltimore
caucasians, and it can only be a matter of time before kernels of ethnic and
interest group identity nucleate and grow, mi'chayil li'chayil, at ner
yisroel as well. ashrei ayin ro'asoh zos.

Mechy Frankel n"a	(with due aknowledgement to sefaradim)		W;
(703) 325-1277
michael.frankel@dtra.mil						H:
(301) 593-3949

The general tenor of his talks was gentle, despite his habit of ending
every single paragraph with the phrase "ayom ve-nora," and very much in
the Slobodka mold: an orderly schedule, getting up for minyan on time, not
letting "vacation" go to waste. He never raised his voice or showed anger
that I recall.

Also, am I the only person who sees certain parallels in history between 
registeries of Who is A Jew and certain other regimes.  It is especially odd 
considering that the torah parties just got over an Israeli election where 
Shinui rhetoric toward Orthodox Jews was compared to Nazi rhetoric toward 
all Jews.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Agreed.  the af al pi chein is a form of Cheit beyad romo - es hashem hu 
megadeif

Perhaps we can say tghe following:

A hasro'o discerns between a passoinat overi letei'ovon and a willful 
pre-meditation, iow lehach'is. and by saying af al pi chein, the perpetrator is 
mafkir his nefesh to the will of BD.

Rich Wolpoe




______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: murder is crazy (was baruch goldstein V4#238) 

On Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 03:41:59PM -0500, Allen Baruch wrote:
: I heard from R' Weinberg ztl, that when you think about it, for Bais Din 
: to put anyone to death via skilah/sreifah/hereg/chenek was 
: practically impossible - you needed for the culprit to agree in front 
: of 2 aidim that he will be oveir the aveirah even though he 
: KNOWS that he will die for it. That person is obviously a shotah.

I understood it differently. The person is chayav misah NOT merely for the 
cheit itself, but in part for the rebelliousness inherent in being willing 
to die for his "right" to be oveir.

-mi

-- 

Clearly Halakha severely limits the actual application of capital
punishment. The requirement of witnesses and warning is one feature of
this. See Maharal in Beer haGola and elsewhere. It would be unusual
(metaphorically "crazy") for a murderer to flout hatra'a and accept
responsibility even as he readies the deed.

Many years ago the idea that people would disclaim responsibility by using
"mental health" categories was not as widespread in traditional circles as
it is today. Even theological and political liberals used this notion to
excuse other people (e.g. Leopold and Loeb) rather than to set up an
overall moral orientation. in this context, saying that any murderer
liable to halakhic capital punishment "must be crazy," would not carry
with it the broad philosophical implications we recognize today.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-avodah@aishdas.org [mailto:owner-avodah@aishdas.org]On
> Behalf Of Alan Davidson
> Sent: 04 January 2000 23:05
> To: avodah@aishdas.org
> Subject: Registry of Jews
>
>
> Also, am I the only person who sees certain parallels in
> history between
> registeries of Who is A Jew and certain other regimes.
>

You *do* mean Beis Hillel and Beis Shamai, don't you? (with regards to
marriages between them).

(or did you forget to write "lehavdil"?)

Akiva


A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

In a message dated 1/4/00 3:43:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< D Finch: Sports stats are harmless
 
 M Silberstein: they would be a discraction for a gadol
 
 Hocho bami askinon, D. Finch is talking about NOT gedolim, and M Siloti is 
 talkng about Gedlim or potential Gedolim >>

Following sports is a distraction for everybody, future gadol or not. Just 
ask the frustrated wives who are trying to get their husbands attention on a 
Sunday afternoon. In general, the amount of time that even adult Orthodox 
Jews spend "talking sports" is embarrassing and does not speak well for us as 
a mamleches kohanim vgoy kadosh. We were given the koach hadibur to separate 
us from animals, not to obsess on who is the best left hander in the American 
league. I know very few people who follow sports in moderation. The Rama 
paskens in Yore Deah "asur ledaber bisichas chulin". This halacho goes for 
all not just future gedolim. While the achronim say that one may, and should, 
talk a certain amount of sichas chulin in order to relax, the hours spent by 
both children and adults speaking about sports is a colossal waste of time. 

PS  Anyone interested in joining an Avoda Super Bowl pool? Im betting on on 
the Dolphins.

See seifo, RSBG omeir af hein marbin shofchie domim beyisorel.

Isnt' this  - at least loich'orah - a refence to Sanhedrin's job in using 
capital punishemt as a deterrent?

Rich Wolpoe 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: murder is crazy 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/4/2000 4:01 PM


Me:
: I'm not sure, though, about my premise. I'd be happier if I found more
: mekoros for saying that beis din is more concerned with organizing society 
: than with judging individuals. Anyone want to give me a hand?

On Tue, Jan 04, 2000 at 03:39:34PM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote: 
: See Mishna Makkos 1:10

What does the frequency of applications of capital punishement have to do 
with organizing society vs. judging individuals?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 30-Dec-99: Chamishi, Shemos 
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 91b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

On Tue, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:12:35PM -0500, Shalom Carmy wrote:
:                                                 It would be unusual
: (metaphorically "crazy") for a murderer to flout hatra'a and accept
: responsibility even as he readies the deed.

I don't know how literally "crazy" it needs to be. Plenty of people kill, and
even willing to martyr themselves, for ideals not espoused by halachah. Clear
sane decision making, wrong decision.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 30-Dec-99: Chamishi, Shemos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 91b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

I was there from 49 to 50 and can tell you that RMF was right on target.
Kol Tuv
steve

Joelirich@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 1/3/00 12:39:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> Michael.Frankel@dtra.mil writes:
>
> << Michael.Frankel@dtra.mil >>
> Mechy,
> What years were you at YU?
>
> While I agree with your general thrust about R. Lesin and R. Zachs,  Bmchilat
> kvodcha, I think you may have been a bit too sharp in your description(I'm
> not disagreeing with the facts, just the tone). Please forgive me if my
> tochecha is misplaced.
> Kol Tuv,
> Joel

HM says that "there has to be another way".  I agree.

----- Original Message -----
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:59:00 -0800 (PST)
> From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
"It seems that R.
> Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, (along with others in Torah
> leadership positions) has decided to set up  an
> independent registry to keep track of who is Jewish."

The situation today is that while a person who is not
halachically jewish, may have "jewish" written for his
nationality, when he/she comes to wed, as they are jewish
they are subject to the Chief Rabbinate and the Batei Din
Rabaniyim.

Every person who wishes to marry in Israel has to bring to
the local rabbinate 2 kosher witnesses who can bear witness
that the person is single and jewish.

If _any_ kind of question arises (in the case of russians,
for instance, or olim with no witnesses, or a question of
divorce) -- the case is referred to a Beit Din of 3 Dayanim.
Here the documents to prove that the person is jewish and
single have to be presented  + witnesses.

The kind of evidence requested is the grandmother's ketuba;
description of how the grandmother/grandfather described
holidays (you would be surprised how easy it is at times to
discover frauds just from simple questions).  Other evidence
is requested if necessary etc.

If the Beit Din is convinced that the person is jewish -- a
document is issued stating that the person is jewish.  As
this is done by a Beit Din -- this should end the matter.

This is one of  the basic motivations for the battle of the
orthodox in Israel against any encroachment on the status of
the Chief Rabbinate and the Batei Din Rabbaniyim.  As long
as they hold sway -- we can remain a single nation.

Shoshana L. Boublil

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I've been catching up with the list and came upon this thread to which I think I can add a few points.

1) It is a fact that a number of the letters in the back of Hiddushe HaGriz al HaRambam are addressed to the Rav zt'l. I understand
from members of the Soloveitchik family that the two were, in fact, quite close. This is irrespective of differences on secular
education and Zionism.

2) It is NOT true that in Brisk the Rav's Torah is not valued. It is. they only don't quote him directly. Furthermore, things may
be changing. In a new collection of Brisker Torahs ('assufot R. Haym') the Rav is cited directly, as are 'shiurim L'zekher Abba
Mari.' Furthermore, Reb Moshe S. zt'l is cited very respectfully (also a rarity).

3) A number of years ago a close friend of mine, who was also the Rav's mesharet, went to Reb Refoelzt'l to buy the seforim of the
GRiZ for me. When my friend identified himself and noted his connection, Reb Refoelwent on and on about the Rav's gadlus in lomdus
and how due to his efforts the Brisker Yeshiva had survived so many years.

                                    Jeffrey Woolf

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In a message dated 1/4/00 1:39:00 PM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< FWIW one of my rebbe's objected to baseball due to the the bitul zman of 
siting 
 on the bench.  he felt that soccer and basketaball were more effeceint 
sports 
 for excersize... >>

Perhaps the rabbi should have discussed his observation with, say, Sandy 
Koufax, who sat on the bench game after game until his rotation came up. I 
suspect Mr. Koufax would have been amused at the thought that his form of 
exercise -- which, in its utter laxity, caused him to lose around an inch of 
his left arm from stress-induced joint disease before he reached age 33 -- 
involved bitul zman.

David Finch

In a message dated 1/4/00 2:52:05 PM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< Our "local" newspaper - The "Bergen" Record - runs x-rated ads on the 
sports 
 pages.  I understand that they figure that the macho types read the Sports 
pages
 and those macho types are their targeted audience, but it's a shame that I 
feel 
 I need to hide the sports pages from my son....
  >>

I live near Chicago, home of the Cubs (in the basement last year), Sox (the 
basement of the other league), Bulls (27-2 this year), and Blackhawks (won't 
make the playoffs for the second year a row). I have to hide the sports pages 
from my son, too. What's worse: X-rated advertisements or the pain of 
continued and inexorable loss? Is that why two prominent local rabbis 
(Conservative and Orthodox) have pointed to Chicago sports history as a 
metaphor for the fate of the Jews?

David Finch

In a message dated 1/4/00 3:12:26 PM US Central Standard Time, 
carmy@ymail.yu.edu writes:

<< Even theological and political liberals used this notion to
 excuse other people (e.g. Leopold and Loeb) rather than to set up an
 overall moral orientation.  >>

Clarence Darrow did not use the notion of insanity or derangement to excuse 
Leopold and Loeb, whom he represented at trial. He pled them guilty to avoid 
a jury trial. Sentencing was in the hands of a judge. Darrow raised Leopold's 
and Loeb's mental state in mitigation of the death penalty. He argued, in 
essence, that Leopold and Loeb were screwed up by their indulgent but 
demanding parents, and by the upper-class German (Jewish) society in Hyde 
Park that promoted such indulgence. It was a novel legal argument in the 
early 1920s. Darrow was a liberal, a radical even, but he didn't raise the 
argument to promote any political cause. He did it to keep his clients from 
the gas chamber. They were sentenced to life imprisonment. One of them was 
knifed to death a decade later during a homosexual brawl in the shower room 
at Stateville Penitentiary. The other wasn't paroled until middle age, when, 
in feeble heath, he retreated to some place like Puerto Rico.

David Finch

In a message dated 1/4/00 3:35:33 PM US Central Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< 
 I don't know how literally "crazy" it needs to be. Plenty of people kill, and
 even willing to martyr themselves, for ideals not espoused by halachah. Clear
 sane decision making, wrong decision.
  >>

Legally sane, criminally sane, morally culpable, liable for the full 
punishment of the law -- but still deranged, sociopathic, or at least 
demonstrably maladjusted. Some point to the latter. The system still employs 
the former.

David Finch

*********************


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