Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 250

Tuesday, January 4 2000

• Re: Burying Body Parts
• Re: Sports
• Re[2]: Prayer of Agunoth
• Re: Avodah V4 #247
• Re: Sports
• Sports
• Re[2]: Separation of religion and state in Israel (was Ortho
• Re: Boys will be boys
• Re: Boys will be boys -- some preliminary thoughts
• Re[4]: Shas or SA?
• RYBS and covering hair
• Re: Recreation
• Re: Value of Shas
• Re: Separation of religion and state in Israel (was Ortho
• Re: Funny Money
• RE: murder is crazy (V4#247)
• Re[2]: Burying Body Parts
• Re: Avodah V4 #248
• Re: Mayim achronim
• sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
• Re: murder is crazy (V4#247)

On Tue, Jan 04, 2000 at 07:52:10AM +0200, Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:
:> I am under the impression that they are. I've buried my sons' orlos.

: I also buried my youngest son's orla per instructions from the 
: mohel.

I should have also mentioned that I did so as per the mohel's instructions.
This was in the US. As the mohel for most of my boys, R' Joseph Goldberg
z"l ("Uncle Joseph") was the meivi la'or for most of my greatgrandfather's
published works, this didn't strike me as surprising.

As Carl said, this is usual practice for mohelim.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 30-Dec-99: Chamishi, Shemos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 91b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Shlomo Godick wrote:


> In America professional sports is something that mostly goyim do. In Israel
> professional sports is regarded as something m'chal'lei shabbos do
> (most soccer games are held on Shabbos and are very much part of the
> chiloni culture in Israel).  Hence sports (particularly organized sports)
> have a particularly bad "image" among charedim in Israel.



Here in Baltimore, there's a kid in yeshiva day school who was all the
rage in the local sports section, on the radio, TV, etc. Hottest high
school b-ball player in the state. Courted by colleges with nice offers.

He's going to yeshiva instead.




---sam

<snip>.

Al kol panim, let's look at some of the things the Malbim does not 
say.

1. He discusses neither tenants nor agunos.
2. He assumes that the employee whose salary has been withheld will call out. 
But he does not say that employee will call out for revenge against his 
employer. <snip>
-- Carl
>>

And since she has a CHOICE of how to call out, why not take the "win win" choice
and pray for her own relief and NOT for the death of her opressor?

Using this "win-win", she is invoking Hashem's Rachmonus and not His din. 
Shouldn't we always encourage invoking Hashems' rachmonus on us rather than His 
din upon others?  

Rich Wolpoe

On Tue, Jan 04, 2000 at 01:32:32PM +0000, davidman@ymail.yu.edu wrote:
: Just to add, until the BM was redone about a year and a half ago, there
: was a letter hanging up written by HaRav Schachter Shlit"a hanging in the BM
: regarding this 20 minute mussar seder. Moreover, the past few years in YU,
: once a week, one of the Roshei Yeshiva, Shlit"a gives a "Sichos Mussar" in
: the BM.

A 20 min mussar seider doesn't make it a Mussar Yeshiva.

Mussar is an entire attitude toward yiddishkeit, one that centers about
middos improvement. It's a set of hanhagos lifnim mishuras hadin. It's
batei mussar and cheshbon hanefesh. It's NOT 20 min a day. No more than
being a Chassidishe Yeshiva is.

The fact that some yeshivos today call themselves "mussar yeshivos" on
the basis of a daily 15 min seder in "Shemiras haLashon" just shows how
dead (hopefully just hibernating) the mussar movement truly is.

-mi (RIETS '86)

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 30-Dec-99: Chamishi, Shemos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 91b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

On Tue, Jan 04, 2000 at 02:39:53PM +0200, Shlomo Godick wrote:
: However, at least in my kids' cheder,  informal "pick-up" games of soccer
: (or similar games using an inflated ball) do take place during recess.

In my day and locale (Queens), it was baseball or punchball.

One of my fonder childhood memories is the way Ushie Zagelbaum would
make sure that despite my total lack of coordination and athletic skill,
I wouldn't be the last one picked. (Not that I tried to join the game all
that often.)

Yet another non-sequitor, I know, but you don't come across middos like that
in a 9 yr old all that often. Those of us who want to teach this behavior
to our kids should note to them that Ushie was one of the more popular kids
in the school. Eizehu michubad...

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 30-Dec-99: Chamishi, Shemos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 91b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

David I thought you would hold hockey is a mitzvo!

Kokosuv "Hockey Sakeh "- afilu meio p'omim <smile>

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #244 


I hope that the kosher/parve sports include baseball, ice hockey, tennis, 
soccer, and basketball, not necessarily in that order. What would they not 
include?

David Finch

I guess we might surmise that public violation of Torah is viewed more-or-less 
as mumar lhach'is; while private violations are considered mumar letei'ovon,

and therefore chareid perceive chilonim as being "in-your-face" wrt to public 
chillul Shabbos, etc...

Or perhaps this is an issue of chotei/umachti.  In private, one influens only 
oneself and one's family. While in public, one is influencing socity at large to
disragard Shabbos, etc.

Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<snip>

Not allowing public shabbos violation *is not* the same as religious 
compulsion. What people do in the privacy of their home is their business.

IOW, Protesting the public sale of cheeseburgers in downtown Yerusalayim is 
*not* the same as telling people thay may not make a cheeseburger at home. I 
have *never* heard of anyone in the charedi world here proposing the later.


Akiva

RD Finch write:

<<Anyhow, even watching sports for pure diversion is pretty innocent. It's an 
innocent way of learning to learn -- gathering and analyzing statistics, 
weighing the significance of various modes of comparative performance (see 
also, e.g., our own discussion on who are, and what creates, Gedolim), using 
competitive analogues to describe the relative value of individual 
performances (see, once again, the example of our own discussion on Gedolim, 
among other subjects).>>

I understand your point and have experienced it myself.  I am also not arguing 
that we sould radically change our attitudes (yet).  However, I look at the 
gemara and I look at our lives and I see a difference.  The obvious question is 
why?

The gemara in Avodah Zarah (26b or is it 16b?) lists certain activities that are
assur because of moshav leitzim.  I'm sure historians could help us out in 
understanding exactly what these activities are but I'm pretty sure they consist
of stadium entertainment (probably gladiators) and plays in theatres.  See also 
the Rema in O"C 316:2 and the Magen Avraham in 224:3, 307:22, and 338:8.  The 
She'arim Metzuyanim BaHalachah quotes the Hagahos Maharsham 224:1 who says that 
this prohibition applies also to women.

My question is, why does this not reflect reality in the Jewish community?  Is 
there a good reason?  As RM Torczyner pointed out in the Recreation dialogue, 
any claim that WATCHING sports is relaxing and recharges your proverbial 
batteries could have been said by the gemara but wasn't.

Absolutely!

Don't forget the Brandman Tape Library, with hundreds of available tapes,
including well over 1000 by yours truly, on Halacha, Hashkafa, Tanach, and
Yerushalmi. An old version of the catalog is on the aishdas website, and I
have an updated one available as well (will send it to Micha, but is
available from me as well).

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <Joelirich@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 4:24 AM
Subject: Re: Boys will be boys -- some preliminary thoughts


> Agreed but also keep in mind the plethora of tora tapes available as
well - I
> find it difficult to drive and listen to detailed shiurim but there is
plenty
> of "light" material available as well.
>
> kol Tuv,
> Joel Rich
>

--946998615@tcpgate.ibi.com
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RR Wolpoe wrote:

>>But does one size fit all?  Does your experience NECESSARILY reflect that of 
others?  Is there room for different apporaches for different persoanlity types,
for people's whose brains are organized differently?>>
     
I think my point is that if you want to learn halachah then you can just learn 
Kitzur, Chayei Adam, or R. Chaim Kaniefsky's Shoneh Halachos.  If you want to 
learn the shitos in the rishonim then just learning Beis Yosef without learning 
the gemara is insufficient.  Perhaps that is just my experience (or brain 
organization).




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Gil Student:
I think my point is that if you want to learn halachah then you can just learn 
Kitzur, Chayei Adam, or R. Chaim Kaniefsky's Shoneh Halachos.  If you want to 
learn the shitos in the rishonim then just learning Beis Yosef without learning 
the gemara is insufficient.  Perhaps that is just my experience (or brain 
organization).<<

btw bby brain organiztion, I mean that not everyone goes by chronological time 
lines.

IOW it's true if one starts from Chumash thatn does mihsna then gemor then 
Rishonim etc. one follows all the sugyo by a solid time-line

BUT, let's fact it, shas sometimes "rambles".  The Tur is organized into more 
tightly fit TOPICAL simonim.  And SOME brains learn better by focusing on a 
topic and THEN going into background mode for sources.

Let me give you a historial background based upon my studies at BRGS.

How was TSBP originally organized?  According to my professors (eg R MS 
Feldblum) the earlier Tannaitic organization was by Chumash.  IOW the Mechilto, 
Sifro, Sifrei STRUCTURE (not the actual text) was the way people learned TSBP.  
This is parallel to say the Chumash Torah Temimo.  First you learned the Chumash
and THEN you learned the corresponding TSBP.

The chidush of Rebbe was to RE-ORANIZE these mishanyos into the desorim and 
masechots we have. (and this process can prbably be traced back at least or R. 
Akiva's time)

And while the Mishna has a more-o-less tight topicla structure, teh gemor goes 
off on many tangents.

Notice that the Rambam's Mishna Torah and the Tur follow the topical 
organization of Rebbe's Mishna.  In a snese they recodifed NEW forms of Mishnah,
and  the nos'ei keilim are in effect new gemoros!  But of course they lack 
aggedito and they are not quite as binding, but in terms of derech halimud in 
terms of pedagogical structure the parallels are unmistakable.

This process is continuous.  Note how the SA narrowed down to halaho pesuko and 
along came new no'esi kelim and along came KSA then came new expandsion (eg MB) 
and then came new contractions (eg Shone Halochos)

We also have new seforim (eg Shmiras Shabbos kehilchoso, Pischei Halocho on 
Brochos and Nidda) that are highly focused topical seforim with a lot of depth 
and little breadth.  So it goes on and on.

Certainly - crossing threads - if we can allow little "eisav's" to learn 
baseball in order not to be frustrated - can't we make room for others to learn 
non-Shas Seforim in order to accomodate THEIR personal netiyos and peronsality 
"quirks"?

Rich Wolpoe 


--946998615@tcpgate.ibi.com--

RD Cohen wrote:

<<And I have heard specifically from at least two Rabbonim who were 
Talmidim of the Rav, that he only required women to wear a head covering as 
a sign of their marital status but did not require the covering of all 
their hair. And furthermore, in the privacy of theri own house among 
friends who know of her marital status, hair covering was is not 
required.>>

I heard the second part, about their homes, from others also.  I now 
realize that I was inaccurate in my wording when I said that the Rav held 
that women "must cover all of their hair."  The descendant said that and he 
told me that the Rav said that women must cover their hair (without 
specifying all or some).  Evidently, this descendant disagreed with the 
Rav's psak.  I apologize for my lack of clarity.

Along the lines of RE Clark's thoughts, the Chovos HaLevavos (3:4) lists three 
types of activities - those that are 1] assur, 2] a mitzvah, and 3] neither.  Of
this third category are activities such as eating and sleeping.  If they are 
done in appropriate amounts and leshem shamayim then they are mitzvahs.  
Otherwise they are aveirahs.  The Chovos HaLevavos then concludes that there 
really are only two type of activities - those that are assur and those that are
mitzvahs.

I have heard this extended to sports and other leisure activities and this 
extension seems to flow naturally.  However, these leisure activites must not be
assur (as we are discussing in the thread "Boys Will Be Boys").

On Tue, Jan 04, 2000 at 08:40:26AM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
: It COULD mean that Mikro (not chumash) should be FINISHED by 10 (at least
: once), but not necessarily never learned again

More than that... MUST be learned again, "Al tikri 'vishinantam' ela
'vishilashtam'" (Kiddushin 30a). As to the Rambam's addendum, he clearly
states (1:12) that once one knows mikra and mishnah well, you still don't cut
them out -- you just spend less than 1/3 your time on each. And who among us
qualifies as "lo yehei tzarich lilmod Torah sheBichsav, vilo la'asok tamid
biTorah sheBa'al Peh"? So, from a pragmatic point of view, all of us should
be learning in thirds.

Note also that Tosfos's famous heter by which they justify the practice
(that was already current in Ashkenaz) of learning only Shas is because it
is balul all three -- not because you don't require all three.

Also important to note: we're discussing a quote of a tanna. When it says
"shelish bigmara" it can't possibly mean Shas. For that matter, it's implied
in the Rambam that Shas isn't included. The rest of the quote I started
two paragraphs ago is that if someone knows Tanach and Torah sheBa'al Peh,
and doesn't need to spend 1/3 of his time on each, "yikra bi'itim mizumanim
Torah sheBichsav vidivrei hashmu'a, lefi rochav libo viyishuv da'ato". It
would appear that learning Shas, being divrei hashmu'a, qualifies as mishnah,
not gemara WRT type of learning.

But even if I've gone a bit far with the last paragraph, clearly learning
bi'iyun, being spoonfed gemara in a daf yomi shiur doesn't qualify as
"ushlish yavin viyaskil acharis davar meirishaso, viyotzi davar midavar,
viyidmeh davar lidavar..." (1:10). So even if shas bi'iyun qualifies as
gemara, which I'm not sure it does, bekius certainly doesn't.

We have to distinguish between gemara the verb, a type of talmud Torah that
is more analytical than acquisitional, and Gemara the noun, a collection of
such analyses.

I think the real reason why we center on Shas is because it's fun. As I've
said in the past, many are confusing the joy of intellectual stimulation
with having religious experience. As Carl writes, "I have heard from numerous
Rabbeim that how long a boy is likely to stay in learning is almost totally
dependent on how much he enjoys Gemara" [the noun, not the verb].

Frankly, our community would do well to learn Yeshaiah. His tochachos are
very applicable to the ills of our generation.

MMG"H (mikrah, mishnah, gemara, hashkafah) was based on the idea that
in addition to the three modes of learning the Rambam requires learning
hashkafah as part of the mitzvah of Ahavas Hashem (Yesodei haTorah 2:1;
right before he starts the Aristotileanisms).

As Eli Clark mentions, pre-WWII Jewery learnt a lot more aggadita than we
do. Ein Yaakov, Chayei Adam, even the gemara portion of Chok tends to be
aggadita. We are far more din oriented.

Which brings me to Shlomo Godick's comment in the discussion of academic
scholarship (v4n237):
: Heschel: ... central as is law, only a small part of the Bible deals with
: the Law. The narratives of the Bible are as holy as its legal portions.
: According to one rabbi, "the conversation of the servants of the patri-
: archs is more beautiful than even the laws of the later generations."
: ("Search", p. 324)

: RYBS: The halakha sees in all of the Torah basic laws and halakhic principles.
: Even the stories of the Torah came to establish halakha for the generations.
: "The conversation of the servants of the patriarchs is more beautiful ...
: than even the laws of the later generations." ("Ish Ha-Halakha", p. 710)

Note that what they disagree on is the defintion of "beauty". Heschel assumes
that it refers to hashkafah, lehavdil (*) to the Rav who assumes it's
"halachah". This is very much leshitaso on the part of RYBS, whose hashkafah
is based on "halachic hermeneutics" (as he calls it). To R' Chaim, halachah
is only to be understood in its own terms. You don't bring external principles
to explain it. The Rav extended this logical priority of halachah to the
study of aggadita as well.

(* My apologies to those offended by the "lehavdil". I just couldn't leave the
sentence as though I consider them ch"v comparable.)

I would be unsurprised if a Ba'al Mussar or a Chassidishe seifer understood
the aggadita to refer to hanhagos that are lifnim mishuras hadin and the
ideas that motivate them. To their respective world-views, those priorities
are what is "most beautiful", and lay behind halachah as well.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 30-Dec-99: Chamishi, Shemos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 91b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

I was wondering if this is connected to the discussion of whether a democratic
republic could have a din malchus. After all, a melech is obligated to pass
laws to force shemiras hamitzvos.

Also, do we get into the issur of giving tochacha that won't be heeded?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 30-Dec-99: Chamishi, Shemos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 91b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

As mentioned in earlier threads.

R. S .Schwab has been quoted in blaming "tainted money" as the root cause for 
lack of new gedolim emerging from from the recent doros.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Funny Money 

 May an instatute bend the rules of halacha to for fear of losing 
goverment funding? This brings up a more diffacult question when an 
insatute takes state funding this money might not be kosher and  there is 
a famous quote from the GRA  "If  even a nail in the building  of a 
yeshivah is not kosher then no good will come from it".

moti2@juno.com

Micha Berger wrote:
"I understood it differently. The person is chayav misah NOT merely 
for the cheit itself, but in part for the rebelliousness inherent in being 
willing to die for his "right" to be oveir."

1) If the punishment is for rebelliousness, the same should apply
by chiyuvei makos, why is there a nafka minah in punishment?
2) I have always understood that w/o eidim and hassroh the 
person is chayav misah, just that bais din cannot carry through.
Your implication is that the cheit is not one that is chayav misah (it's
a different chait). Please bring sources.

kol tuv
Sender Baruch

Q: Is there any mention of what to do with children's teeth?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Burying Body Parts 
:> I am under the impression that they are. I've buried my sons' orlos.

: I also buried my youngest son's orla per instructions from the 
: mohel.

I should have also mentioned that I did so as per the mohel's instructions. 
This was in the US. As the mohel for most of my boys, R' Joseph Goldberg 
z"l ("Uncle Joseph") was the meivi la'or for most of my greatgrandfather's 
published works, this didn't strike me as surprising.

As Carl said, this is usual practice for mohelim.

-mi

In response to Michael Frankel's comment, In spite of considerations
afforded their gay students, I was not aware how considerate YU has been
toward the plight of, and discrimination against, Native Americans,
regardless of where they had been trained. Having studied in Ner Israel
myself where virtually all the staff members were Caucasion, I find this
fact astonishing, yet refreshing.

Aaron

"to one where the roshei yeshiva and administartion are completely native
americans and trained essentially locally"

Gil Student wrote <<< It is also possible to compare mayim acharonim to
heseiba at the Pesach seder.>>>

He then explained that comparison: <<< My comparison was of the attitude
towards halachah regarding women. Specifically, allowing them to be
lenient according to minority positions. It could be argued that it was
for sociological reasons, or for tzenius reasons, or for some sort of
kabbalistic kedushah reasons (I'm sure I could make something like that
up) but I was just trying to show a possible pattern.  So far we have two
data points.  That isn't much of a trend but it is the beginning of a
thought. >>>

I am not aware of any general attitude that the Torah has, which would
allow women to be lenient merely by virtue of gender. (I will admit that
over the years, various people have tried to convince me of such a
distinction, but I believe it to be mistaken.)

As R' Student suggested, reclining at the Seder is indeed intertwined
with sociological factors. For example, a student at his teacher's Seder
does not recline unless he gets prior permission from that teacher.
Similarly, there is a dispute between the Mechaber and Rema about women
reclining, but this dispute is based on the sociological status of women
as it relates to this practice of reclining, not on any general carte
blanche for women to be lenient.

Therefore, if there is indeed any comparison to be made regarding women
in Mayim Acharonim and Heseiba at the Seder, it could be that (as others
have pointed out):

-- just as women are exempt from reclining because the obligation to
recline is based on one's status, and the status of women is such that
reclining is not required,
-- so too, women are exempt from mayim acharonim because the obligation
of mayim acharonim is based on dirty hands, and women tend to keep their
hands clean.

But NOT because women are in general allowed to follow minority opinions.

Akiva Miller
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In a message dated 1/4/00 10:04:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

<< 
 Don't forget the Brandman Tape Library, with hundreds of available tapes,
 including well over 1000 by yours truly, on Halacha, Hashkafa, Tanach, and
 Yerushalmi. An old version of the catalog is on the aishdas website, and I
 have an updated one available as well (will send it to Micha, but is
 available from me as well).
  >>
I'd love some detail

Kol Tuv
Joel

On Tue, Jan 04, 2000 at 09:15:02AM -0500, Allen Baruch wrote:
: 1) If the punishment is for rebelliousness, the same should apply
: by chiyuvei makos, why is there a nafka minah in punishment?

Which is a greater act of rebellion: saying "I want to do it even though I
know I could die for it" or "... even though O could get malkus for it"?
This justifies the difference in punishment, but doesn't explain it. The
basis of the nafka minah can't be that circular.

The reason for the chiyuv misah has to do with the severity of the deed itself.
However, the person isn't dying for the deed, he's dying for being willing
to pay drastic consequences in order to do his drastic act.

IOW, it's not (as my words literally read) the rebellion alone. The substance
of the act is part of the rebellion. Rebellion without the act isn't chayav
misah, and the act without the rebellion isn't punishable by beis din. And
we really have little idea how HKBH, "bochein kelayos valeiv" will judge
him.

: 2) I have always understood that w/o eidim and hassroh the 
: person is chayav misah, just that bais din cannot carry through.
: Your implication is that the cheit is not one that is chayav misah (it's
: a different chait). Please bring sources.

No, what I'm saying is that beis din isn't charged with killing someone for
being oveid avodah zarah. That's for HKBH to judge. Beis din is charged with
preserving the kehillah -- for which willingness to worship A"Z even on pain
of death is more damaging than mere worship. They're containing seeds of
rebellion, not meeting out sechar va'onesh.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 30-Dec-99: Chamishi, Shemos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 91b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

*********************


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