Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 249

Tuesday, January 4 2000

• Re: Kevurah For Body Parts
• Funny Money
• Re: boys will be boys
• Re: Avodah V4 #248
• RYBS and covering hair
• Re: Avodah V4 #248
• Re: Boys will be boys -- some preliminary thoughts
• Burying Body Parts
• Re: Avodah V4 #247
• playing ball
• Re: Boys will be boys -- some preliminary thoughts
• Re: Avodah V4 #247
• Re: Kevurah for Body Parts
• re: Sports
• Re[2]: Shas or SA?
• Re[2]: Value of Shas
• Re: Altalena
• Re[2]: Value of Shas
• Re: Boys will be boys -- some preliminary thoughts
• Re[2]: Value of Shas
• Re[2]: YU is a Litvishe yeshiva in the mold of Volozhin (?)
• Re[2]: Prayer of Agunoth
• Re: Re[2]: Shas or SA?
• Re: Mayim achronim

--- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 06:26:34PM -0500,
> gil.student@citicorp.com wrote:
> : Are tonsils and other removed body parts required
> to be buried?  Why or why
> : not?
> 
> I am under the impression that they are. I've buried
> my sons' orlos.

When my father underwent surgery for removal of a
cancerous bladder, I asked R. Aaron Soloveichik if we
needed to bury it.  His answer was no since it did 
not contain bone.  Apparently, the only body part that
one is required to bury is a limb.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com

 May an instatute bend the rules of halacha to for fear of losing 
goverment funding? This brings up a more diffacult question when an
insatute takes state funding this money might not be kosher and  there is
a famous quote from the GRA  "If  even a nail in the building  of a
yeshivah is not kosher then no good will come from it".

moti2@juno.com

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DFinchPC@aol.com writes
>With all the real dangerous garbage out there, keeping track of who's 
>batting 
>what in the National League is harmless. 
 
  In keeping track of sports  may be harmless from the start ,but it
gradually keeps going. For example like you said people watch\see the
game  then why do people listen on the radio for the "play by play". This
is not only by young boys turning into  adults who would then quit when
they get older but completely grown people during davining talking about 
jets,giants etc.
 
   Rabbi Matisyahu Solomon said  on tisha beav  " That bacharim debate
more feverishly who is better  in sports  then a psak in halacha in the
bais medrash."It totally throws away your concentration on a sunday
morning when it is 2:30pm and your favorite team started playing at
1:00pm and  you start wondering  id my team wining or losing(some even
have pocket radios).

 My end point is gedolim do not come from listing to sports games .Like
RAV Shkop said you want to exercise take long walks and  memorize points
of gemarah with a chavrusa.
Moti Silberstein 

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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:34:24 EST
From: DFinchPC@aol.com
Subject: Re: Kevurah For Body Parts

In a message dated 1/3/00 5:28:53 PM US Central Standard Time,
gil.student@citicorp.com writes:

<< Are tonsils and other removed body parts required to be buried?  Why or
why not? >>

How does one say Kaddish for tonsils? Must one tear a hole in one's neck, or
may one rely on the hidden surgical scar in one's throat? Can you bury
tonsils in a sealed biohazard-proof container (see the United States EPA's
rules on this subject) or must you use a small pine box with holes in the
bottom? If the latter, do we not run into a major issue of church vs. state?

I'll stop now.

David Finch

------------------------------
Perhaps you should have stopped before you started. You have managed to
trivialize the rather unpleasant work of the dedicated members of chevrai
kadisha the world over.

The questions are legitimate ones and deserving of discussion and answers.

Simcha Klagsbrun

>>Before I got married I broached the subject with a descendant of RYB 
>>Soloveitchik who, despite his negiah bedavar, said explicitly that women 
must 
>>cover all of their hair.  He also told me that the Rav had responded the 
same to
>>his talmidim.  He (not the Rav) was willing to be lenient about less than a 
>>tefach.<<

    And I have heard specifically from at least two Rabbonim who were 
Talmidim of the Rav, that he only required women to wear a head covering as a 
sign of their marital status but did not require the covering of all their 
hair. And furthermore, in the privacy of theri own house among friends who 
know of her marital status, hair covering was is not required.
    Now, i did not here this directly from the Rav, but I know enough couples 
who follow this shitah that there must be some validity to it. Any comments?
    David I. Cohen

In a message dated 1/3/00 8:32:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, David 
Finch@aishdas.org writes:

<< You can't play unless you also watch, and 
 watch carefully, especially team sports where role-playing is important. >>

From my personal experience, I know many excellent Chasidish and Yeshivish 
basketball players who never watched even one minute of an NBA game. 

Also, is the goal to have kids play ball "exceedingly well" or to get 
exercise and mental and physical relaxation. Of course one should aim to do 
anything he does well but is it really worth the time watching games to 
imitate the "moves" of the players? Is this a Jewish attitude or is it that 
since all kids watch sports and it may not be technically assur, we 
rationalize allowing our kids to do it as well? Also lets be real. Most 
sports have advertisements and cheerleaders that I don't think young 
impressionable Jewish boys should be watching. Also very frequently kids 
don't only analyze the STATS but idolize and analyze their heroes every move. 
This is obvious to advertisers who pay millions to have athletes endorse 
their products. From my experience, for whatever its worth, the benefits of 
sports are far outweighed by the negatives.     

I srongly suggest combining exercise with mind expansion. For example, I
recently completed Ivanhoe (and two other books by Scott) War and Peace
(Tolstoy), Is Paris Burning and O Jerusalem (Collins and Lapierre),
Gulliver's Travels, and several other books (now I mostly doing
non-fiction), by listening to books on tape while exercising and driving
(beats my old Radio staples by miles and miles). Renting tapes is a tad
expensive, but I would never actually read these books in print.

I don't know how much weight I am actually losing, but I'm actually enjoying
the exercise time!

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

R. Micha Berger writes:

> On Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 06:26:34PM -0500, gil.student@citicorp.com wrote:
> : Are tonsils and other removed body parts required to be buried?  Why or why
> : not?
> 
> I am under the impression that they are. I've buried my sons' orlos.

I also buried my youngest son's orla per instructions from the 
mohel. My two older sons had their brissin in America and there 
the mohel took care of it himself. We know one mohel in 
Yerushalayim who has a place behind his apartment building that 
he calls Givat HaAralos :-) 

> My greatgrandfather, R' Yisrael Avraham Abba Krieger (Rav of Kashduri,
> Litta; Frankfurt-am-Mein; Boston; talmid and ben-bayis of the Or Samei'ach)
> was noheig to save and bury fingernail clippings and barber cuttings as well.
> My grandfather clarified that his father did NOT consider this to be din.

See Mishna Brura 260:6 and the Prisha OH 241:4 who also seem 
not to consider it din.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 15:41:59 -0500
> From: "Allen Baruch" <Abaruch@SINAI-BALT.COM>
> Subject: murder is crazy (was baruch goldstein V4#238)
>
> David Finch wrote
> "Was the murderer crazy? Committing murder is crazy. Committing
> mass murder is crazier. When is the last time someone in a civilian
> setting deliberately killed a bunch of people in a with a gun without
> being at least in some sense "deranged?"
>
> I heard from R' Weinberg ztl, that when you think about it, for Bais
Din
> to put anyone to death via skilah/sreifah/hereg/chenek was
> practically impossible - you needed for the culprit to agree in front
> of 2 aidim that he will be oveir the aveirah even though he
> KNOWS that he will die for it. That person is obviously a shotah.

One must assert that David Finch's position is unacceptable from a
Torah, or
indeed, from any moral perspective.  It is the inevitable outcome of the
penetration of Torah thought by the mental health ideology common in
contemporary American society which asserts that evil MUST be a
consequence of psychological disturbance.  Believers in human
responsibility for moral action have no choice but to assert that sane
people commit evil and that evil is no evidence of insanity. (Chazal's
reference to a ruach shtus misleading the sinner has nothing to do with
this issue.)
Rav Weinberg was too great a gadol to have said what was attributed to
him.  I do not believe that he ever made such a statement, at least not
as
understood by the poster.

Melech

M. Press, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology, Touro College
mpress@ix.netcom.com or melechp@touro.edu

<<
A friend of mine who was a counselor in Camp Aguda told me that the Bluzhever
Rebbe (who used to visit camp Aguda), used to sit at the sports fields and
just watch the kids play ball. When asked about this unusual behavior he told
them that the most difficult thing for him during the War and in the camps
was seeing the horrible conditions the poor "tyere yidishe kinderlach" had to
grow up in (if they had a chance to grow up) and it pained him to see that
they did not have a chance to run, laugh and play like normal children. He
therefore just sat and "shepped nachas" from seeing Jewish kids being normal
and playing in a beautiful outdoor setting and enjoying themselves. (The
Bluzhever was really an unusual human being). >>

It reminds me of a story I heard that in the 1930's the Mezhitzer Ilui
was teaching in YU. He also used to watch the boys play ball during recess.
He was once asked why and he replied that when he grew up he constantly
learned and never had a childhood. Hence, he gets enjoyment from seeing
other kids have a good time.

Eli Turkel

In a message dated 1/4/00 12:19:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

<< I srongly suggest combining exercise with mind expansion. For example, I
 recently completed Ivanhoe (and two other books by Scott) War and Peace
 (Tolstoy), Is Paris Burning and O Jerusalem (Collins and Lapierre),
 Gulliver's Travels, and several other books (now I mostly doing
 non-fiction), by listening to books on tape while exercising and driving
 (beats my old Radio staples by miles and miles). Renting tapes is a tad
 expensive, but I would never actually read these books in print.
 
 I don't know how much weight I am actually losing, but I'm actually enjoying
 the exercise time!
 
 Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer >>
Agreed but also keep in mind the plethora of tora tapes available as well - I 
find it difficult to drive and listen to detailed shiurim but there is plenty 
of "light" material available as well.

kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

gil.student wrote:
>>When I attempted to establish an official "optional" mussar seder in the Beis 
>Medrash (for fifteen minutes before Ma'ariv) I asked R. Hershel Schachter to 
>write a letter endorsing it which I hung up in the BM.  He was very much in 
>favor of it and quoted from the Rav in Halachic Man about the importance of 
>learning mussar today.  I then discussed it with most of the rebbeim (R. 
>Bronspiegel, R. Rosensweig, R. Parnes, R. Twersky, etc.) all of whom encouraged 
>their talmidim to learn mussar during that time.  From what I was told, R. Ahron
>Soloveitchik said something to the extent that "If R. Chaim were in America he 
>would beg his talmidim to learn mussar."<<

Just to add, until the BM was redone about a year and a half ago, there was a letter hanging up written by HaRav Schachter Shlit"a hanging in the BM regarding this 20 minute mussar seder. Moreover, the past few years in YU, once a week, one of the Roshei Yeshiva, Shlit"a gives a "Sichos Mussar" in the BM.

The Nishmat Avraham YD 362 # 1 sums up the opinions of acharonim:

Those who say body parts do NOT need kevurah mitzad hadin include:
Shvut Yaakov 101; Noda Beyehuda mahadura Tanina YD 209; Melamed L'Ho'il
YD 118; Kol Bo al Aveilut pg. 184; Hesher hachaim Chelek Alef 16:2 s"k bet;
Yabia Omer Chelek Gimmel YD 22 #2.

IGGROT MOSHE YD I 232  one can use the severed organ for experimentation but
afterwards the organ must be buried. In IM YD III 141 he states that organs
that have sinews or bones must be buried; but organs such as intestines,
kidneys, spleen, etc., don't need kevurah.

TZITZ ELIZER Chelek Yod 25:8: doctors can experiment with the severed organ
and students can study anatomy from it but one can't simply throw it in the
garbage afterwards. It must be hidden away (l'hatzniyo) or buried.

Josh

RAAtwood wrote: <<
That is the reason the cheder system here discourages soccer and basketball.
They feel that the boys will inevitably be drawn to fandom.  >>

True, but I have a feeling its more than that.

In America professional sports is something that mostly goyim do. In Israel
professional sports is regarded as something m'chal'lei shabbos do
(most soccer games are held on Shabbos and are very much part of the
chiloni culture in Israel).  Hence sports (particularly organized sports)
have a particularly bad "image" among charedim in Israel.

However, at least in my kids' cheder,  informal "pick-up" games of soccer
(or similar games using an inflated ball) do take place during recess.

Regarding RDFinch's comment that professional sports have to be
observed/attended in order to perfect one's game, I think that is
precisely where the line should be drawn.  IMHO sports should be a
hechsher mitzvah, an opportunity for recreation and recharging
batteries (as per REClark's missive), not an aggressively
competitive arena for physical self-perfection.    Performance in
sports should never become an end in itself.

KT,
Shlomo Godick


KT,
Shlomo Godick

Gil Student:
>>Allow me to offer my experience.  I've tried it all ways with different 
masechtas/sugyos.  I've tried learning halachah straight from the Shulchan Aruch
and Nosei Keilim.  I've tried it with just SA and Mishnah Berurah.  I've tried 
learning through gemara with rishonim and stopping there.

When I started to learn Yoreh Deah-inyanim (incidently after I had started 
working full-time) I went through gemara and rishonim, then Tur, BY, SA, Nosei 
Keilim, and assorted seforim and teshuvos (like Pri Chadash, Tevuos Shor, and 
Beis Halevi), and then went to a Sunday morning shiur with a respected Talmid 
Chacham.

There is no question to me that the last way is the proper way.  When I started 
going to the shiur, despite the tremendous chiddushim and bekius of this talmid 
chacham, I still felt that I had gone in knowing the halachos and was even bored
a lot of the time.  I was able to answer a lot of the difficult halachah 
lema'aseh shailos that he brought up and argue (albeit usually unsuccessfully) 
with his chiddushim.

You can't really know the halachah unless you learn gemara with basic rishonim. 
You have to know the gemara before you start Tur and BY otherwise you don't 
fully appreciate what the rishonim quoted by the BY say.

Of course, this brings into question all of the other things that I have learned
in the past.

<<

But does one size fit all?  Does your experience NECESSARILY reflect that of 
others?  Is there room for different apporaches for different persoanlity types,
for people's whose brains are organized differently?

Rich Wolpoe   

It COULD mean that Mikro (not chumash) should be FINISHED by 10 (at least once),
but not necessarily never learned again

Also the Rambam seems to think once one has finsihed Mikro and Mishno the focus 
should be on Gemoro

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: re: Value of Shas 

Carl Sherer wrote <<< I think what the Mishna in Pirkei Avos is telling 
us when it says "ben eser shanim laMishna, ben chamesh esrei laGmara" and 
then doesn't mention any text we are supposed to learn beyond that, is 
that between the ages of 10 and 15, we are supposed to develop a bkiyus 
in Mishna, which stays with us when we start learning Gmara at 15. >>>

According to this, we should stop learning Chumash when we turn ten.

I don't think so. I think the mishna is merely telling us the starting 
ages, and they should *all* continue lifelong.

Akiva Miller

>
> > Again, assuming Amir pulled the trigger (which is an assumption
> > that is called into question by Chamish), I agree with you 1000%.
> > But what if someone else pulled the (or a) trigger? What if
> > someone else was involved who has gone unpunished? Doesn't
> > that bother you? It bothers Leah Rabin and her children.
> >
As I understand it, normally only an act is chayav but not a definite
intention.  However, in the case of shfichas damim, which is "yehareg velo
ya'avor"  we're stricter.  The intention also counts.  He probably wouldn't
get mitas beis din but one would expect he'd be chayav in Beis din shel
ma'alah. What would a Sanhedrin do with him, I wonder?
In other words-  from the point of view of YA it doesn't matter if someone
else pulled the trigger-  he's still chayav.
From the point of view of mishpat-  yes of course we should be concerned if
someone else got off scot free-   tzedek tzedek tirdof.
Some others would be over on shfichas damim and would have to account.

Mrs. GA

When I first came to YU from Ner Yisroel, R. Israel Miller and I discussed 
hashkofo and he questioned if YU was the correct place for ME.

IOW, YU - as represented by R. Miller who was more-or-less Dr. Belkin's #2 man -
was aware it was not for everybody.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Value of Shas 


In a message dated 12/31/99 1:04:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, R. Wolpoe 
writes:
<< FWIW R. M. Heinemaan told me much the same in 1968. >>

Thanx for the Tanya D'misaya ley
>>No doubt that the "mainstream apporach is to master Shas, and it would be a 
disservice for me to promote any other agenda for the vast majority of 
talmidim. However,  not every Talmid is a mainstream Talmid>>

I agree
I wrote: R. Lamm did such a good job explaining torah lishmah that after 
reading his book it was hard for me to  understand why he is such an advocate 
of torah umadda.
Joel Rich wrote:
Or perhaps you might rethink why someone else who believes in Tora lshma is 
not?
My reply:Without Judging which one is correct (although as is probably 
obvious I prefer his earlier work) the Torah Lishmah described by R. Lamm is 
not at all compatible with what he describes in Torah Umadda.
<snip>
Good Shabbos, 
Aharon Y.

At the other extreme is the position described poignantly by
> Mrs. Atwood, that views any and all secular activity as intrinsically
> wrong because of bittul Torah or worse

I liked your post but for one little detail-  my name!
Perhaps I'd better make my position a *little* bit clearer <g>

I have no argument at all against many kinds of secular activities-
swimming,  jogging, breeding pigeons, camping in the Galil, family movies,
studying natural history and similar -  all in their time and measure for
health, fitness and general balance and done with derech eretz-  I'm all for
it.

I only protest (strongly) against involvement in activities which can insert
non-Torah hashkafahs in our psyches.  Playing football for fitness,
enjoyment and teamsmanship is fine.  Attending big matches and going to the
pub afterwards, (and perhaps getting into a row with fans of the other team
on the way) is obviously not fine, but is the result of serious secular
football - (well, it was in England!)   Physical activities are to some
extent a mitzvah, but naming a sports team "the Maccabees", bearing in mind
the Hellenistic accent on organized sports-  is a hashkafic joke. Many books
and movies are harmful for our neshamas etc etc etc. We have to use our
powers of discrimination (birur) to the utmost, and be totally honest about
where we're at and where we want to be.    Mrs. GA

FWIW: when I was a young bochur in her Yisroel one "elter bochur" - one of THE 
most seniopr Talmidim in the Rosh Yeshiva's shiur said he di NTO do Snayim mikro
v'echod Targum, that he considered his limud of shas pre-empted that.  I took 
this to be a MAINSTREAM hashkofo amongst the senior talmidim in Ner Yisroel at 
that time, although to be honest I extrapolated that.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Value of Shas 
<snip>
Joel Rich wrote:
Exclusive? To the exclusion of Tora shebektav?(or as the old joke goes - 
learn chumash as a perush on the gemora)
My Reply: Not Exclusive, nearly exclusive. Everybody is required to learn 
Shnayim Mikra and be "adorned" with all 24 seforim (see Rashi on Vayiteyn el 
moshe kichaloso). But the emphasis should be on Shas. And it is not a Joke 
but rather Shitas Rabbeinu Tam in Kidushin 30a brought down by RAMA in SA 
hilchot TT.

Good Shabbos, 
Aharon Y.

Or did R. Gifter "re-model: Telshe based upon YU and thereby came full cirlce 
<smile>

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: YU is a Litvishe yeshiva in the mold of Volozhin  (?) 


Curious objections, RMF. I am ot sure I even understand them.

I would think Rabbi Lessin, longtime Mashgiach at YU, would probably differ 
with you on the issue of mussar.

And, of course YU was patterned on Telshe. That is where Dr. Revel 
originated.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Almost.  how about her praying for releif rather than for the death of her 
opressor?

I recall the a maase of the Chofetz Chaim:
Ploni:  Bless me so that I will win the lottery 
Ch.Ch.: Why do you need to win the lottery?
Ploni: So that I will have enough time and money to learn 
Ch. Ch.: May Hashem grant you enough time to learn
Ploni: No, I want to win the lotteryh...

IOW the Chofetz Chaim refused to pray for the man to win the lottery, rather heh
did pray for him to get the positive benfits as if he had won the lottery.


Why can't the aguno or other opressed person pray to have their oppression 
stopped and leave miso bidei shomayimn in Hashem's hands?

Rich Wolpoe



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RE: Prayer of Agunoth 
<snip>
Hope this clarifies everything
Russell http://www.shamash.org/rashi

RR Wolpoe wrote:

>>But does one size fit all?  Does your experience NECESSARILY reflect that of 
others?  Is there room for different apporaches for different persoanlity types,
for people's whose brains are organized differently?>>
     
I think my point is that if you want to learn halachah then you can just learn 
Kitzur, Chayei Adam, or R. Chaim Kaniefsky's Shoneh Halachos.  If you want to 
learn the shitos in the rishonim then just learning Beis Yosef without learning 
the gemara is insufficient.  Perhaps that is just my experience (or brain 
organization).

I wrote:

<< It is also possible to compare mayim acharonim to heseiba at the Pesach 
 seder.>>

RC Brown wrote:

<<What does one thing have to do with another?>>

As usual, an excellent question.  [I remember once in yeshivah I offered 
you an obscure comparison to explain an odd psak and you said "Where do you 
think we live, pilpul land?"]

My comparison was of the attitude towards halachah regarding women.  
Specifically, allowing them to be lenient according to minority positions.  
It could be argued that it was for sociological reasons, or for tzenius 
reasons, or for some sort of kabbalistic kedushah reasons (I'm sure I could 
make something like that up) but I was just trying to show a possible 
pattern.  So far we have two data points.  That isn't much of a trend but 
it is the beginning of a thought.

*********************


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