Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 247

Monday, January 3 2000

• Re: YU is a Litvishe yeshiva in the mold of Volozhin (?) Curious objections(?)
• Learning Gemorah
• Rambam on Ahavat Hashem
• halacha and baseball
• sefardi minhag
• Re: halacha and baseball
• Re: sefardi minhag
• Re: Boys will be boys
• RE: Malchus vs state
• Re: YU is a Litvishe yeshiva in the mold of Volozhin (?) Curious objections(?), clarification
• Re: YU is a Litvishe yeshiva in the mold of Volozhin (?) Cur
• Boys will be boys -- some preliminary thoughts
• R. Lessin
• R. Hirsch -- Promotional message for his fans
• Re: Boys will be boys
• murder is crazy (was baruch goldstein V4#238)
• Re: Gedolim and ball playing
• Re: murder is crazy (was baruch goldstein V4#238)
• OFF TOPIC - Baruch Yosef

My apologies - the last post was meant to be personal
Kol Tuv,
Joel

R. Moshe Rudner writes:

>The general consensus seems to be that Gemara learning is primary but that
>some students (nebach) can't handle it so we throw them a bone of Tanach,
>Halacha, or Aggada.

>When did this idea of Gemara above all else become one of the Ikkarim? I am
>surprised that even among non chareidim (many of us on this list) it seems
>to be a sacred principle that Gemara learning is of ultra importance.

<snip>

>I would be very interested to hear what exactly the purpose of intensive
>Gemara study is - unless of course that is a principle which we must except
>on faith.

You ask two very different questions.  Historically speaking, the study
of Gemara has been a or the central element in the education of Jewish
religious leaders at least from the time of the Geonim.  The Gemara in
Kiddushin and commentaries thereon are a useful reference point.  There
are some periods when Gemara was less central.  In Moslem Spain, one was
expected to supplement Gemara with Tanakh, classical philosophy, grammar
and belles lettres.   As R. Rich Wolpoe pointed out, study of Rif's
Sefer Halakhot displaced Gemara in certain times and periods, such as
Provence between the late 13th and 14th centuries (pre-Meiri).  And, the
tragic burnings of the Gemara by the Catholic church had the obvious
effect of decreasing Talmud study, and the unintended effect of
increasing the study of Kabbalah (this per S. Assaf).  Notwithstanding
the general consensus you cite, various rishonim saw philosophy,
Kabbalah and Tanakh as necessary supplements of Gemara study.  [This is
an important theme in the researches of R. Yitzhak Twersky, and I will
provide the interested with references upon request.]

Note, however, that we generally do not know how much Gemara was studied
by lay people, i.e. those who were not kelei kodesh.  To a degree, the
general level of Torah scholarship was dependent on economics, and the
more affluent Jewish communities often enjoyed a higher level of Torah
literacy among the populace.  There is every reason to believe that very
few people, except the very wealthy and the scholarly elite, achieved
any mastery of Gemara before the first printing of the Talmud in the (I
think) 16th century.  And, even after this important advance, economics
of course continued to play a role, as did the Church (again).

Maharal proposed an ambitious program of curricular reform, but I do not
believe it was influential.  More recently, publishing histories can
give us a hint as to what works were widely studied, including Ein
Yaakov, Hayyei Adam and various musar-oriented works.

Your second question is what the purpose of Gemara study is.  Here I
think you will find different answers.  For myself, I can say that I
find the activity, beyond its core value as a kiyyum of mitzvat talmud
Torah, uniquely enriching -- intellectually stimulating, spiritually
inspiring, and emotionally gratifying.  First and foremost, the sugya
challenges the mind on different levels: from deciphering the Aramaic to
probing the inner complexities of the text.  Second, the Gemara
inspires.  One learns of the sheer moral heroism of the Tannaim and
Amoraim, their fearless commitment to Torah, their unflagging quest for
amitah shel Torah, their monumental effort to transmit, apply, expand,
and transmute Torah she-be-al Peh.  Third, as R. Soloveitchik has
movingly written, one feels transported into a hallowed sanctum, where
one hears R. Akiva doresh etim; where the Ri struggles to reconcile
sugyot and R. Tam insists on the rightness of his peshat; where Rambam
distills the Gemara into a crystalline Hebrew and Rambam debates the
Ba'al ha-Maor; where the Tur and Bet Yosef survey the hiddushim of
centuries past, where the Ketzot and Netivot revel in baffling puzzles
and mind-bending resolutions; where R. Hayyim Brisker cuts to the core
of the Mishneh Torah with an achingly simple hilluk; and where we,
young, callow and unlearned, are invited to listen, to learn and --
wonder of wonders!  -- to participate in this awesome  discussion.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

Mrs. Gila Atwood writes:

From: Clark, Eli <clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM>

>> What enhanced Rambam's sense of emunah I do not know.  One possible
>> answer can be found in his startling statement in Hil. Teshuvah
>> regarding attaining ahavat Hashem.

>Please enlighten a humble housewife before Shabbos who does not wish to
>disturb (now) sleeping husband.

Thank you for asking; it gives me the opportunity to correct a glaring
error of mine.  Rambam writes in Hil. Yesodei ha-Torah -- NOT Hil.
Teshuvah -- that it is a mitzvah to love Hashem.  He asks: how does one
achieve this?  Then, in a startlingly moving, almost romantic passage,
he describes a person who contemplates creation is overawed by what he
or she sees.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

if my son (and probably the children of other people here) were as m'dakdaik 
about learning gemara and tanach as they are about baseball statistics, then 
we no doubt would be producing a great many more torah scholars!

hilchos baseball has some interesting possibilities.  in fact, i think i did 
something like this for a purim newsletter a few years back, but i've 
forgotten most of the jokes.  the first batter in the lineup, of course, has 
to be a cohen, followed by a levi.  hosafos not allowed unless the game is 
tied.  the strike zone would be measured in t'fachim. 

i'll leave it up to others to add to this list...

michael feldstein 

R. Shlomo Godick asks:

>And I wonder if this impression that Ashkenazi psak tends to be more
>machmir than Sephardi psak is in fact statistically correct.   Anyone
>have any idea?

If one learns Yoreh De'ah, one is struck by the fact that, siman after
siman, the Rema basically disregards all of the different shitot in the
Rishonim and writes the we are noheg le-hahmir.

This point is also made by Mahartz Chajes.

And, for a variety of social and historical reasons, the Sefardi gedolim
as a group demonstrate far less fear and reti'ah from various aspects of
modernity and tend to be less rejectionist of religious Zionism.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

> something like this for a purim newsletter a few years back, but i've 
> forgotten most of the jokes.  the first batter in the lineup, of course, has 
> to be a cohen, followed by a levi.  hosafos not allowed unless the game is 
> tied.  the strike zone would be measured in t'fachim. 
> 
> i'll leave it up to others to add to this list...
> 
> michael feldstein 

In my mind the biggest Nafka Mina (which coaches often say but rarely believe - and I fear this is true of some in our midst) is that by us it truly isn't whether you win or lose but how you play the game. [or as I tell my friends - he who dies with the most toys, dies with the most toys]

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

On Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 01:54:00PM -0500, Clark, Eli wrote:
: If one learns Yoreh De'ah, one is struck by the fact that, siman after
: siman, the Rema basically disregards all of the different shitot in the
: Rishonim and writes the we are noheg le-hahmir.

: This point is also made by Mahartz Chajes.

I hate to re-open the question of Mishnah Berurah and "ba'al nefesh yachmir"...

    Well, wait a moment. I really don't. Just thought that apologetic tone was
    appropriate. Anyway, as I was saying...

... it seems we have here the precedent for paskening lechumrah just to "be
safe". It would appear that contrary to my earlier asumption, this isn't
a 20th century thing.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 30-Dec-99: Chamishi, Shemos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 91b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

RD Finch wrote:

>>I hope that the kosher/parve sports include baseball, ice hockey, tennis,  
soccer, and basketball, not necessarily in that order. What would they not 
include?>>

RG Dubin wrote:

>>My intention was that the kosher/parve label refer to entertainment in 
general.  I assumed that sports were fine unless one can conjure up an egregious
exception.  It's things like TV/video/computer games which need more 
"hashgacha">>

I have thought about it but cannot find any heter baseball games and the like 
(attending, not playing).  There is an issur of moshav leitzim that seems to be 
tailor-made for such things.  Every Rav I've asked has kind of hedged around the
issue and suggested things like "kiruv."  Does anyone have any thoughts or seen 
or heard any teshuvos that would matir these?  [Granted, that probably isn't the
right attitude]

Even for those who are somehow able to get around the various other issues of 
seeing movies, wouldn't it still be moshav leitzim to go to a movie theater?

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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	For what it's worth, Rabbi Moshe Lichtenstien of Gush had a series
of e-mail shiurim on Jewish Political Theory .I believe you can access the
archives by going to the Gush website.
> From: Yzkd@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Altalena
> 
> In a message dated 1/2/00 11:13:35 AM EST, sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu 
> writes:
> 
> >  I would be mechalek between those
> >  functioning within a democracy, trying to sway public opinion, and
> those
> >  breaking the law for their own purposes.
> 
> Once we mix here democracy IOW a Geder Mlucha which is dependent on Rotzon
> 
> Hoam, then the whole Geder of Mrida Bmalchus may depend on Rotzon Hoam as 
> well.
> 
> Kol Tuv
> 
> Yitzchok Zirkind
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> 

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charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
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<TITLE>RE: Malchus vs state</TITLE>
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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">For what it's worth, =
Rabbi Moshe Lichtenstien of Gush had a series of e-mail shiurim on =
Jewish Political Theory .I believe you can access the archives by going =
to the Gush website.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From: Yzkd@aol.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Subject: Re: Altalena</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">In a message dated 1/2/00 11:13:35 AM =
EST, sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">writes:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp; I would be mechalek between =
those</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp; functioning within a =
democracy, trying to sway public opinion, and those</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp; breaking the law for their =
own purposes.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Once we mix here democracy IOW a Geder =
Mlucha which is dependent on Rotzon </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hoam, then the whole Geder of Mrida =
Bmalchus may depend on Rotzon Hoam as </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">well.</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Kol Tuv</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Yitzchok Zirkind</FONT>
</P>

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note- a minor clarification.  in a previous post i had made passing mention
of some of european roshei yeshiva at yu with whom i'd learned and included
r. sheinberg in that list. i should have mentioned that he is actually an
american who went to europe to learn in pre-war mir and got caught with the
rest of them, making the shanghai escape. since he's the father of an avodah
list member and mail jewish moderator, i should probably, while reminiscing,
also have mentioned that i had the pleasure as well of learning from r. meir
simcha feldman when he was a high school rebbe at riets, and some years
later taking a graduate course in talmudic literature with him as well. at
least i had the pleasure, though i'm not sure he did -but happily he
probably wouldn't remember me after the many many hundreds of talmidim
who've had the privelege of learning with him over the years. as to the tone
of my previous post referring to r. lesin and r. zaks and remarked by
rjoelrich, i tried to emphasize my personal respect for their midos and
sincerity and apologize if that didn't come through clearly enough. my
point, such as it was, was an attempt to convey their essential divorcement
from the american talmidim's daily reality, and the sense we talmidim had of
them as something foreign to our world, foreign in a way that the "regular"
rebbes, no less native yiddish speaking europeans, were not since we
interacted with our rebbes and learned from them every day (on a good day
anyway).  a divorcement that was in no way mitigated by their various
titular designations as they in reality neither gave a regular shiur nor
played any administrative role whatever.

Mechy Frankel					W: (703) 325-1277
michael frankeldtra.mil				H: (301) 593-3949
 

RM Frankel wrote:

>>to suggest, as does RYGB, that the presence of a mashgiach in the form of R. 
Lesin somehow put it in the musar camp is to seriously misunderstand the daily 
reality of riets (and an appropriately relevant point to claim my own bona fides
as a been-there-done-that aid re'eyoh- I was intimately associated with RIETS 
for a long time, including an eleven year stint as a talmid min haminyon).>>


Since my experience at RIETS was very different from RM Frankel's, I'll offer 
it.  In my (recent) days at RIETS, a very powerful figure in the Beis Medrash 
was R. Yitzchak Cohen, rebbe and mashgiach in the high school but unofficially 
the mashgiach of the "yeshivish" crowd in the Beis Medrash.  His weekly Thursday
night "fire and brimstone" mussar shmuessen were always well attended and his 
constant presence in the Beis Medrash (unbelievably, he was almost ALWAYS there)
made him a major influence on many talmidim.  He was frequently approaching 
bachurim and talking to them.  [R. Cohen frequently quoted the mashgiach and it 
took me years until I found out he meant R. Lessin]

When I attempted to establish an official "optional" mussar seder in the Beis 
Medrash (for fifteen minutes before Ma'ariv) I asked R. Hershel Schachter to 
write a letter endorsing it which I hung up in the BM.  He was very much in 
favor of it and quoted from the Rav in Halachic Man about the importance of 
learning mussar today.  I then discussed it with most of the rebbeim (R. 
Bronspiegel, R. Rosensweig, R. Parnes, R. Twersky, etc.) all of whom encouraged 
their talmidim to learn mussar during that time.  From what I was told, R. Ahron
Soloveitchik said something to the extent that "If R. Chaim were in America he 
would beg his talmidim to learn mussar."

However, wasn't it very clear from the start that YU was patterned after 
Volozhin?  Wasn't the yeshiva originally named (way back) Eitz Chaim after the 
yeshiva in Volozhin?  I distinctly remember that R. Hershel Schachter, in the 
first lecture in the official Torah U'Madda lecture series, started by saying 
that the yeshiva follows the mesorah of Volozhin.

R. David Finch has raised a very important issue, one that is by no
means limited to boys, although is acutely felt by them.

Can we develop a Torah hashkafah on the subject of recreation?

The earliest treatment of this question that I know of was written in
the 1960's by R. Norman Lamm, and is reprinted in Faith and Doubt.
Although I believe he deserves credit as a pioneer, I did not find the
article as a whole very satisfying.  Part of the problem -- for him and
anyone else -- is that the concept of middle class "leisure" is a very
recent one, and, as a result, one will not find any systematic treatment
of it among Rishonim or most Aharonim.

To map the problem, we can survey the poles of the debate: at one end,
among the very modern Orthodox, one finds an encouragement in pretty
much all areas that do not involve hillul Shabbat or violating the laws
of kashrut.  This is little more than a reflection of the American value
system.  At the other extreme is the position described poignantly by
Mrs. Atwood, that views any and all secular activity as intrinsically
wrong because of bittul Torah or worse.  (I am also reminded of an
American boy I taught who went off to an Israeli yeshiva after high
school, where he was taught, in his words, that "fun is asur.")

For those of us who view the Torah as an etz hayyim la-mahazikim bah,
who live a Torah life in the world, rather than in denial of the world,
who see non-Jewish society as part of the environment in which Torah was
meant to flower, we must be able to formulate a non-apologetic Torah
approach to recreation in all of its forms, including sports.  And
besides apologetics, we should also avoid the natural tendency to
denigrate recreation among those benei Torah who look back somewhat
embarrassedly at what they now consider their wasted youth; the time
spent avidly memorizing batting averages, perfecting a layup, practicing
a plie (sp?) or Fur Elise.

Listmembers have already mentioned that some activities, by their very
nature, require prohibition, restriction or supervision.  This, I think,
goes without saying, although different people will no doubt draw their
lines at different points.  My question is different: what are the
affirmative arguments for engaging in recreational activities?

R. Joel Rich has thrown out "ve-nishmartem me'od le-nafshotekhem" as
implying a mandate to exercise.  Perhaps, though its main focus is
refraining from unhealthy activities.

Our starting point is likely to be the Rambam, who writes that all of
our activities, eating, sleeping, etc. must be viewed as serving our
larger goal of avodat Hashem.  While this perspective applies naturally
to necessary activities, the question is how -- or whether -- we can
apply it to activities that seem less necessary, including baseball,
listening to Mozart, and camping in Yellowstone.

The also raises the question of what is a "necessary" activity.  Here, I
think we can introduce an important variable: subjective standards.
While all of us (men) have a basic obligation in talmud Torah, we
clearly have different capacities and levels of ability, different
attention spans and different areas of interest.  I know no one who can
meet the famous standard of the Vilna Gaon, and I think it is somewhat
wrongheaded for children to be bombarded by his example.  Every one of
us needs time to relax, to recharge our batteries physically,
emotionally and intellectually.  This should not be seen as having value
(nor should it be engaged in) for its own sake, but as a necessary
component of a religious life.  How much time one needs will differ from
person to person, as will the kind of activity that offers solace.

Once we have established that recreation has a role in the life of the
ben or bat Torah, we have to turn our minds to two issues: can we choose
activities that may serve a dual purpose, recreation and spiritual
uplift?  The answer is, I think, not always.  In many European yeshivot,
bahurim were permitted to play chess, which was considered to hone the
intellect, in addition to its recreatinal value.  But, after hours of
wrestling with a dense sugya, I think one may need a purely
non-intellectual activity as a respite from the mental heavy-lifting.
Boys who are blessed (!) with boundless energy should have some kind of
outlet for it, if they are expected to spend many hours a day sitting in
a chair.

On the other hand, there is much to be said for spiritually enriching
activities, for reading Dostoevsky, attending King Lear or seeing "The
Winslow Boy" ( a recent film I saw).  In Israel, one finds many talmidim
spending their ben ha-zemanim going on tiyulim, where the land and
sights they survey are endowed with intrinsic kedushah.  I would say,
further, that a person can develop a kind of spiritual sensitivity, such
that he or she will become increasingly adept at finding some spiritual
value in an activity, whether routine or recreational.  The key is to
tailor one's activities to one's needs and proclivities: as my rebbe
repeatedly emphasized, avodat Hashem does not require all of us to do
the same thing all the time: we have the leeway as individuals to
discover and dedicate special attention ourselves to those mitzvot that
suit our abilities and interests.  If this is true within thee world of
mitzvah, it applies all th emore so when we are supplementing our avodat
Hashem with recreational activities.

Obviously, we must mention the kind of caveats that have already been
mentioned on this thread: there are activities that involve issurim,
that can degrade a person spiritually, that are antithetical to Torah
values.  Care should be taken that recreation not displace the larger
goal that it is meant to serve.  Parents of young people should feel
that they can encourage their children to pursue sports, arts and other
activities, but they must try, by word and more importantly by example,
to teach the children what is ikkar and what is tafel.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

1. The general account of R. Lessin's impact on YU is correct. Let me add
that he offered a nightly Musar limmud in the Bet Midrash before Maariv
for about 15-20 minutes. This was attended by a small number of talmidim
devoted to him. When I first came to YU I attended when I was in the Bet
Midrash simply because I had the impression that it was rude to ignore
someone giving a shiur.

2. Nonetheless R. Lessin's presence did rub off on many who were not part
of his small circle. He was the most graceful man I ever encountered.
Always garbed in dignity, he could, in his eighties, proceed unruffled
down an icy street when everyone else was slipping and sliding. This left
on me an indelible impression of Slobodka seder that I could not have
gotten from books. It was all the more impressive in that he, who had been
an important figure in the Musar world, found himself in a place where he
did not have the influence he might have thought his due. He must have
realized this, and yet was not impaired in his daily rounds.

Yehi zikhro barukh!

R. Hillel Goldberg has written several times about the enormous power of
R. Lessin's example upon him at YU.

3. R. Lessin's presence at YU did not make it a "Musar Yeshiva" in any
way. At most it demonstrates that YU could live with someone like him in
the Bet Midrash. I believe that he was in Boston before coming to YU. This
leads me to wonder whether his hiring at YU was engineered by the Rav out
of respect for an eminent colleague who needed an honorable position.

In general, I suspect that YU, and RIETS in particular, even more than the
average large institution, did not become what it became as the result of
a master plan driven by a vision. Accidental events, the availability of
particular individuals at the right time, are probably more important than
the long range plans of men.

In keeping with Avodah precedent, I would like to inform the list of a
new book that may be of interest:

The Etymological Dictionary of Biblical Hebrew

Based on the writings if R. SR Hirsch, this book defines every Hebrew
root in Tanakh AND identifies the other roots to which it is related.  A
long essay explaining Hirsch's methodology is included.

The book is published by Feldheim.  And the author is a close relative.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

I should have specified:  I meant playing sports,  not watching or
following their professional teams.

Gershon

On Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:18:47 -0500 gil.student@citicorp.com writes:

> I have thought about it but cannot find any heter baseball games and 
> the like  (attending, not playing)

David Finch wrote
"Was the murderer crazy? Committing murder is crazy. Committing 
mass murder is crazier. When is the last time someone in a civilian
setting deliberately killed a bunch of people in a with a gun without 
being at least in some sense "deranged?" 

I heard from R' Weinberg ztl, that when you think about it, for Bais Din 
to put anyone to death via skilah/sreifah/hereg/chenek was 
practically impossible - you needed for the culprit to agree in front 
of 2 aidim that he will be oveir the aveirah even though he 
KNOWS that he will die for it. That person is obviously a shotah.

(Obviously not true nowadays even where the death penalty exists -
everyone knows you can be caught red handed and still get off...)

Kol Tuv
Sender Baruch

In a message dated 1/3/00 6:53:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, David Finch 
writes:
<<What am I supposed to do? Tell him that sports are forbidden? Make him
 read Torah on warm spring afternoons when his friends are playing pick-up
 baseball in the park across the street? Tell him that this is my
 understanding of G-d's undeniable commandment? Do I even have a right to
 tell him such a thing, were I to believe it? How could I inflict such a
 restriction on him -- pain, really -- no matter what I did or did not
 believe? Do these concerns make sense to those of you who, excuse the 
expression, have been frum from birth? >> >>

A friend of mine who was a counselor in Camp Aguda told me that the Bluzhever 
Rebbe (who used to visit camp Aguda), used to sit at the sports fields and 
just watch the kids play ball. When asked about this unusual behavior he told 
them that the most difficult thing for him during the War and in the camps 
was seeing the horrible conditions the poor "tyere yidishe kinderlach" had to 
grow up in (if they had a chance to grow up) and it pained him to see that 
they did not have a chance to run, laugh and play like normal children. He 
therefore just sat and "shepped nachas" from seeing Jewish kids being normal 
and playing in a beautiful outdoor setting and enjoying themselves. (The 
Bluzhever was really an unusual human being).  

Also, it is well known that R. Yakov Kaminetsky used to walk and go swimming 
even in his older years and recommended others to do so.

And finally, the Artscroll R. Moshe book has a story where R. Moshe told a 
class in MTJ that children should play ball but they must make sure to play 
like yidden -- no cursing or fighting.

So if anyone needs reassurance as to the value of ball playing and exercise 
the actions and words of these 3 giants should reassure anyone who perhaps 
feels that such activity is a waste of time.

On Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 03:41:59PM -0500, Allen Baruch wrote:
: I heard from R' Weinberg ztl, that when you think about it, for Bais Din 
: to put anyone to death via skilah/sreifah/hereg/chenek was 
: practically impossible - you needed for the culprit to agree in front 
: of 2 aidim that he will be oveir the aveirah even though he 
: KNOWS that he will die for it. That person is obviously a shotah.

I understood it differently. The person is chayav misah NOT merely for the
cheit itself, but in part for the rebelliousness inherent in being willing
to die for his "right" to be oveir.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 30-Dec-99: Chamishi, Shemos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 91b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

As a rule, no news is good news with Baruch Yosef. But I wanted 
to let you all know that he has MRI's tomorrow (Tuesday) between 
3:30 and 4:30 P.M. Israel time (8:30-9:30 A.M. US Eastern time) 
and again on Sunday from 12:30-2:00 P.M. Israel time (5:30-7:00 
A.M. Eastern US time). Anyone who can say a few Tehillim for him 
then will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

*********************


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