Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 238

Friday, December 31 1999

• Re: Baruch Goldstein
• RE: Slap in the Face
• RE: baruch goldstein
• Impeding Rather Than Inspiring (was Academic scholarship by Orthodox Jews -- Heschel)
• Re[2]: Value of Shas
• Bes din
• Re: baruch goldstein
• Re: Slap in the Face
• RE: baruch goldstein
• Re: baruch goldstein
• RE: baruch goldstein
• Re:
• Re: Baruch Goldstein
• Conspiracy and Baruch Goldstein
• Goldstein
• Learning Gemorah
• Re: Moshe Rabbeinu's Free Will
• Re[2]: Avodah V4 #232
• Re[2]: Avodah V4 #235
• Re[2]: Baruch Goldstein
• Re: Learning Gemorah

I do not think that whether Goldstein was the sole gunman or whether there
were other individuals firing from the grassy knoll makes any difference.
Just like it mystifies me what difference it makes whether Yigal Amir was
provoked by someone to assassinate Rabin or not. The fact is that
unequivocal revulsion of the act, as an act, must follow. At best,
conspiracy theories mitigate the crime somewhat - but they cannot turn the
individual in question into a martyr or hero, even worse, into a ZTVKL and
Neli Kapai'im u'Bar Leivav.

V'sofo hochi'ach al techilaso. If: "a militant settler, taunted the police
and soldiers through a loudspeaker, giving them a Nazi salute. 'You don't
have to speak German to take apart Jewish graves,' he said. 'God will take
his revenge on you. God willing, you won't make it through the year, and
we'll have the privilege of dancing on your blood.'" and: "Others shouted:
'Wreck Rabin's grave! Rabin's next!'" then we must respond stridently: This
is not what we, Orthodox Jews represent. The admirers of a true tzaddik,
following in that tzaddik's footsteps, would never allow such words to
escape their mouths.

Perhaps someone might respond: "You don't understand because you do not live
in Kiryat Arba." My response would have to be that: "Well, then I guess they
should retreat from Kiryat Arba."

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Shlomo Godick <shlomog@mehish.co.il>
To: Avodah List <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 8:50 PM
Subject: re: Baruch Goldstein


> As skeptical as I generally am of conspiracy theories, events of recent
> years in Israel have convinced me to reserve judgment in many cases.
> If my memory serves me correctly, I clipped the following from a Yated
> Neeman email news report.   I apologize for its length, but in light of
the
> recent discussion on this topic, I felt obliged to share this (without
> opining one way or another as to its validity).
>

> can say that of any felon. The term "derangement" is
> meaningless, at least in
> American law. If a defendant is sane enough to form the
> requisite intent --
> if he knew what he was doing -- then his psychic confusion
> will not get him
> off the hook.

NOt true -- "temporary insanity", the inability to know that your action was
wrong, will get you off in the US.

> I'll bet that true in Torah as well.

I'm fairly certain it *would* get you off. Mental illness is considered
acting under duress (according to many poskim).

Akiva


A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

> throughout Jewish history who died "al kiddush hashem."  It's

AFAIK, anyone who is killed *because they are Jewish* is considered one who
died "al kiddush hashem."

Akiva

> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 01:43:06 +0200
> From: "Shlomo Godick" <shlomog@mehish.co.il>
> Subject: Academic scholarship by Orthodox Jews -- Heschel
> 
> Joel Rich wrote: <<
> I do suggest that individuals may from time to time feel that Rabbinic
> leadership (past or present) is going down the wrong track (eg the
> famous gemora re the date of yom kipppur) and still remain in the camp
> of "tora true" .  >>
> 
> Agreed.  But the gemora there is talking about a technical
> disagreement. Rabbi Yehoshua did not accuse Rabban Gamliel of
> "impeding rather than inspiring greater joy and love of G-d", r"l.

I don't know about that. The Gemara there goes on to discuss 
about how on that day they opened the Beis Medrash to anyone 
who wanted to come in, whereas Rabban Gamliel had limited 
access to the Beis Medrash to people who were "tocho k'voro." 
And in several places in Shas, the Gemara makes a point of telling 
us that a certain halacha or drasha was learned "bo bayom" 
referring to that day. Is that an accusation against Rabban Gamliel 
for impeding rather than inspiring love of G-d in those who were 
excluded from the Beis HaMedrash? Tzarich iyun.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 19:04:18 -0500
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: Re[2]: value of shas 
> 
> Anecodte:  the late cheif rabbbi of Amsterdam R. Periera visited
> Hartford circa 1970.  He claime he had just completed shas Mishnayot. 
> I mentioned this to my chaveirim in yeshiva and they wer unimpressed,
> big deal shas mishnah!  But truly how many of us have finished hsas
> mishnah?  

I think what the Mishna in Pirkei Avos is telling us when it says 
"ben eser shanim laMishna, ben chamesh esrei laGmara" and then 
doesn't mention any text we are supposed to learn beyond that, is 
that between the ages of 10 and 15, we are supposed to develop a 
bkiyus in Mishna, which stays with us when we start learning 
Gmara at 15. But it's the Gmara which is meant to be the lifelong 
learning. BTW - there are several Chadarim here which actually 
follow the methodology set out in that Mishna.

And even dafyomi types who have leanred all of TB often skip
> the mishna for those masechos not in TB -except for the TY Shekolim. 

Actually, no. The "official" Daf Yomi schedule also includes Kinim 
and Midos (which have no Gemara) and a few other Mesechtos 
that have very little Gemara. But the Daf Yomi schedule does in 
fact skip most of Zeraim, a few mesechtos of Mishnayos in 
Nezikim (Eduyos and Avos), most of Taharos.

> So completing shas mishna is not quite THAT common after all. IOW why
> did they denigrate that acheivement? 

There is a program run by the Aguda in the States for kids to finish 
Shisha Sidrei Mishna by their Bar Mitzva. Here, the kids are 
encouraged to learn Mishnayos by heart with contests and prizes. 
But I think it is largely seen as a younger person's achievement.

lich'ora becasue they had an
> all-or-nothing focus upon shas. While Shas is primary, I don't think
> ti should be all-or-nothing.

I have heard from numerous Rebbeim that how long a boy is likely 
to stay in learning is almost totally dependent on how much he 
enjoys Gemara. Whether that is because of the way the Yeshiva 
system is today, or whether the Yeshiva system is the way it is 
because Gemara provides the most opportunity for learning is 
debatable. But I think that the importance of boys having exciting 
Rebbeim in the early years of Gemara learning cannot be 
underestimated. Too bad so many guys only want to be Roshei 
Yeshiva of Yeshivos Gdolos instead....

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:19:50 -0500
> From: "Daniel B. Schwartz" <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> Subject: Re: Bes Din
> 
<<Obtain written, signed waivers from dayanim that they will hold me
harmless from any liability arising from my disclosing their wrong
doings,  and I will be glad to provide an earful of information.>>

	I am not a lawyer and do not know what the implications are if you
reveal information which is factually correct.  

	However,  you do urge the readers of this list to act.  I ask again and
again,  bottom line,  what should any of us do?  Those with information
are not sharing it,  but you would have us do battle with virtually every
beis din in America on virtually no facts.

	Please propose a reasonable course of behavior.

Gershon

Do you have proof?

In any event, this individual was not killed because he was Jewish, he was
killed because he murdered...

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 11:57 PM
Subject: RE: baruch goldstein


> > throughout Jewish history who died "al kiddush hashem."  It's
>
> AFAIK, anyone who is killed *because they are Jewish* is considered one
who
> died "al kiddush hashem."
>
> Akiva
>
>

In a message dated 12/30/99 11:02:34 PM US Central Standard Time, 
atwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< NOt true -- "temporary insanity", the inability to know that your action 
was
 wrong, will get you off in the US.
  >>

"Insanity," temporary or not, will get you off the hook under American law if 
it goes to the ability to understand what you are physically doing. It's no 
defense, however, to temporarily lose one's moral compass -- to know that 
you're pulling the trigger, to appreciate that by doing so you're killing 
people, but to believe "temporarily" that the deaths are justified 
politically. There's a legal difference, I understand, between "G-d told me 
to do it," and "G-d wanted me to do it." But I'm not a criminal lawyer, and 
the type of insanity I routinely encounter in civil litigation is immaterial 
to this discussion.

David Finch

First off -- I NO NOT SUPPORT his actions, not the actions or words of the
Kiryat Arba settlers. I find them repulsive.

>
> Do you have proof?

Only incidental -- during the Gulf War the one direct victim of a SCUD was
driving on Shabbat when he was killed by broken glass.

In several drosos after the war, I heard several different Rabbanim say that
even he died AKH for the reason I mentioned.

>
> In any event, this individual was not killed because he was
> Jewish, he was killed because he murdered...

Maybe -- do you have two aidim?

(remember the gemara about seeing someone walk into a ruin carrying an ax --
you follow him in and see him standing over a corpse with the ax bloody...)



Akiva


A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

In a message dated 12/31/99 12:53:59 AM US Central Standard Time, 
atwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< 
 > In any event, this individual was not killed because he was
 > Jewish, he was killed because he murdered...
 
 Maybe -- do you have two aidim?
 
 (remember the gemara about seeing someone walk into a ruin carrying an ax --
 you follow him in and see him standing over a corpse with the ax bloody...)
  >>

I like your point on circumstantial evidence, at least where the 
circumstances create reasonable doubt. But without the two aidim you can 
still execute the murderer. Just hire someone to do it. 

Was the murderer crazy? Committing murder is crazy. Committing mass murder is 
crazier. When is the last time someone in a civilian setting deliberately 
killed a bunch of people in a with a gun without being at least in some sense 
"deranged?" 

The Goldstein incident was and is a horrible embarrassment. I don't think 
there's much more to say about it.

David Finch

> The Goldstein incident was and is a horrible embarrassment. I 
> don't think 
> there's much more to say about it.

Agreed.

Akiva



A reality check a day keeps 
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274  

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.

----- Original Message -----
From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 12:11 AM


> >
> > I know Micha has requested we refrain from the EY issue, but I could not
> > resist noting my utter dismay at the Chilul Hashem nora v'ayom staring
at me
> > from the pages of The New York Times this morning leynei kol ha'amim:
Baruch
> > Goldstein's matzeiva, adorned with: "ZTVKL"! and "Neki Kapa'im u'Bar
Levav"!
> >
The ingenious conspiracy theories of Barry Chamish have a bunch of RZs  (but
NOT all) convinced that Baruch Goldstein (& Yigal Amir) were set up and
framed (beyond the instigation of Raviv).  People believe what they want to
believe.  I don't have the precise info to refute these theories for those
convinced, as if that would help, but the 'pshat' seems much more likely-
and it's clear that YA doesn't want to be deprived of the "credit".  I'm
sure some of you remember the furore concerning BC's book on Steimatzky's
shelves.  GA

> FromShlomo Godick <shlomog@mehish.co.il>
> 
> > As skeptical as I generally am of conspiracy
> theories, events of recent
> > years in Israel have convinced me to reserve
> judgment in many cases.
> > If my memory serves me correctly, I clipped the
> following from a Yated
> > Neeman email news report.   I apologize for its
> length, but in light of
> the
> > recent discussion on this topic, I felt obliged to
> share this (without
> > opining one way or another as to its validity).


Puh-lease!

Are you sure this article wasn't written by Oliver
Stone?

HM
__________________________________________________
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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Though I do not think that Avodah is the place to discuss Israeli
politics, the conspiracy thinking that has become a staple in some
religious circles should be confronted.  Besides the article quoted in
Avodah, I was sent today details of a new conspiracy produced by the
same source linking Syria and Barak to the Rabin assassination and other
deaths as well.  To accept these theories one has to assume that all the
various investigations were frauds and part of the conspiracy.  Since
the Netanyahu government, which could have only benefited from exposing
the left, did not uncover the truth then they must have been of the plot
as well.
The friends of Baruch Goldstein, fellow members of Kach, have justified
his actions rather then denying the possibility that he could have
committed the murders.  According to them he prevented a massacre of
Jews in Chevron.
By denying responsibility for the massacre of Arabs at prayer in Chevron
and the assassination of Prime Minister Rabin we do not need any self
evaluation.  Everything was done by the evil Shin Bet, a tool of the
secular leftists, and the discussions that many of us heard about
moserim and traitors did not mean anything.  This mentality is dangerous
and can lead to further acts of murder from within religious circles
since the enemy, which is basically these traitorous and treacherous
Jews, is so clearly totally evil.
Earlier versions did not mention Ehud Barak because he was not the one
who was the Prime Minister who conducted the negotiations with the
Palestinians, nor was Syria a factor.  Now that this is the critical
issue facing Israel the conspiracy simply adds Barak to Peres and Assad
to Arafat.  The fact that a large segment of the Israelis, perhaps a
majority, views relations with Arabs in different terms is irrelevant
since they are simply being duped by the conspirators.
This is dangerous non thinking and reflects terribly on religious Jews
and Judaism.  We deny all wrong doings and have no difficulty in
assigning all blame to the leaders of Israel who are not in our camp.
For all these conspiracies to be true a very large number of people have
to know and withhold the truth if not be actual plotters.  Fifteen years
ago when the machteres attacked Arab mayors and planned to blow up the
mosque on the Har Habayis  the participants accepted responsibility for
their actions and did not claim that they were manipulated by the Shin
Bet.  Yigal Amir is proud of what he did and instead of dealing with the
implications of his act and his open motivation a conspiracy theory is
still being spread.
Sincerely yours,
Yosef Blau

I will not discuss whether Goldstein was framed or not. However,
it was obvious that those who were crying over his grave and calling
him a tzaddik and yelling at soldiers were not doing so because
they thought he was framed but rather because they agreed with
the actions.

Eli Turkel

Shalom,

The general consensus seems to be that Gemara learning is primary but that 
some students (nebach) can't handle it so we throw them a bone of Tanach, 
Halacha, or Aggada.

When did this idea of Gemara above all else become one of the Ikkarim? I am 
surprised that even among non chareidim (many of us on this list) it seems 
to be a sacred principle that Gemara learning is of ultra importance.

Taking this belief as an axiom, we then discuss the pros and cons of kollel, 
problem children (those who for some crazy reason don't understand the 
purpose of learning Gemara), and other issues.

I would be very interested to hear what exactly the purpose of intensive 
Gemara study is - unless of course that is a principle which we must except 
on faith.

Shabbat Shalom Likulam.

Moshe

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

On Fri, Dec 31, 1999 at 01:45:59AM +0200, Mrs. Gila Atwood wrote:
:>: Shemos 7:3. He writes "USheneihem Emes," too, indicating he accepts removal
:>: of Bachirah as a punishment (or a means to punishment, much as Moshe's loss
:>: of Bechirah is a means to a higher level).

:> I sit corrected. However, I do not agree with your transmutation from
:> "punishment" into "a means to punishment".

: Perhaps you mean rather "Moshe's loss of Bechira is a RESULT of attaining a
: higher level" ?

Yes, I do. But that's my whole understanding of sechar va'onesh as well.
HKBH metes out reward and punishment by setting up a system where certain
acts cause reward, and others cause otherwise. For that matter, we can
take this position from the opposite angle and say that the whole meaning of
nitztaveh or assur-ed is that HKBH wanted to guide us toward spiritually
healthy activities and away from self-injurious ones. Such injuries cause
pain -- which is what we call onesh. I'd compare mitzvos to doctor's orders,
not military ones.

:                  It seems we're talking about two different processes here.
: Moshe's anava & work of spiritual refinement led him to be zocheh to a
: degree of yedias Hashem which enabled him to see through  a clear
: aspaklaria.

You describe two layers that I'd identify as one. Seeing "b'aspaqlaria
hami'irah" means being able to understand that much about HKBH. Hainu
hach. The aspaqlaria refers to the layer of human limitation that prevents
man from fully perceiving the Infinite.

[The rest snipped and agreed with.]

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 30-Dec-99: Chamishi, Shemos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 91b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Did I send any of these?!

I do not recall sending either?!

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #232 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    12/30/1999 7:20 PM


You should pardon my saying so, but fat chance.  Messieurs Schwartz and 
Klagbrun, with first hand knowledge and hard facts about the situation, 
refuse to do more than wave their hands and state that there are no 
honest dayanim.  So the rest of us should walk into shul,  bang on the 
bima, and ask if anyone has any juicy loshon hora about batei din?   I 
don't follow how the process is supposed to work.


Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 16:31:39 -0500 
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Re[2]: Beis Din

Excuse, me, but I did not say that there are no honest dayanim. I did not 
ask you to engage in any discussion of botai din at all. Furthermore, when 
you feel the need to misquote me, please use a little more imagination and 
flair. It will make the 'quote' more believable. Any propagandist worthy of 
the common folks' naive loyalty knows that big lies are easier to spread 
than small fibs.

>>

Just to keep the record straight, Rav Moshe TZK"L ZY"A was already 
considered a gadol when Rav Ahron TZK"L  ZY"A arrived in America, and Rav 
Yosef Ber TZK"L ZY"A had already spent several months giving shiurim to Rav 
Wachtfogel and several other future gedolim at the Westchester Bais Medrish 
which would eventually move to a small town in New Jersey. ( I think the 
name was 'Lakewood').

Despite the popular version of events currently repeated in many yeshivos, 
there were gedolim and torah in America before WWII.<<

Also R. Eliezer Silver...

Rich Wolpoe

FWIW I concur.  Even if we have rachmanus on BG the individual and consider him 
not guilty by reason of insainty, the action itself must be condemned. (IOW Hate
the sin and not the sinner).

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Baruch Goldstein 



I do not think that whether Goldstein was the sole gunman or whether there were 
other individuals firing from the grassy knoll makes any difference. Just like 
it mystifies me what difference it makes whether Yigal Amir was provoked by 
someone to assassinate Rabin or not. The fact is that unequivocal revulsion of 
the act, as an act, must follow.
<snip>
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Great question!

It really deserves a full essay - How did learning Gemoro become the primary 
focus of Yeshivos.

here are a few quick points:

1) girso dyankusa.  There is value in getting students into Gemoro early and 
often.  The window of oppurtunity to "think like a Talmudist" is - as the Mihsan
in Avos points out - a fuction of late teens.  IOW, strike while the iron is hot
and get bachrim ino Gemoro and the most opportune time.

2) Gemoro really is the ikkar repository of TSBP.

Heres' my spin: what about those talmidim who are not mainstream and find hours 
of Gemoro onerous yet get excited by other limuddim?

No question in my mind that for the vast majority under the bell cure that 
Gemoro should be the main focus

The innovation that may be needed are for those at the ends of the curve, those 
for whom Gemoro is over-whelnig and those who have tremendous talents elsewhere.

Perhaps some future Ibn Ezra should be cofusing on Tanach.

And perhaps some future Shach should be focusing on TUR/SA and no'sie keilim.

Even so, those who are focusing on otehr areas should learn SOME Mishna/Gemoro, 
maybe En Yaakov, etc.

I once posted tnat Dr. Grinstein - the former Dean of YU's TI, saw later in life
how Gemoro after all was THE most important limud. (TI was YU's program which 
focuse on preparing teachers and focus upon Ivrit/Tanach etc. and had a minimum 
of Gemoro).  My impression was that Dr. Grinstein felt once the chance to learn 
Gemoro was lost it was too late.  While Tanach, etc. could be picked up later in
life.

I think the program in Avos makes a lot of sense.  
Mikro agres 5-10
Mishan age 13
Mitzvos -13 - how about Sefer ha chinuch, Rambam's Sefer mamitzvos, Smag, etc?
Gemor - 15  if one has a solid background in mikro mishna and a working 
knowledge of Trayag mitzvos they are ready to go.

And as we learned from the Levi'im - you give a stuend 5 years to succeed. If 
after a few yeats he cannot cut it in gemoro, offer the other course on the 
menu, adanved Tanach, Tur/BY, Teshuvos, etc.

Also FWIW, one of my professors told us that for "recreation" talmidim in Europe
used to read Teshuvos. That was their "light" reading?

Wouldn't it be great if some yeshiva somehwere had a program that leraned all of
the Igros Moshe from beginning to end?  

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Learning Gemorah 

Shalom,

The general consensus seems to be that Gemara learning is primary but that 
some students (nebach) can't handle it so we throw them a bone of Tanach, 
Halacha, or Aggada.

When did this idea of Gemara above all else become one of the Ikkarim? I am 
surprised that even among non chareidim (many of us on this list) it seems 
to be a sacred principle that Gemara learning is of ultra importance.

Taking this belief as an axiom, we then discuss the pros and cons of kollel, 
problem children (those who for some crazy reason don't understand the 
purpose of learning Gemara), and other issues.

I would be very interested to hear what exactly the purpose of intensive 
Gemara study is - unless of course that is a principle which we must except 
on faith.

Shabbat Shalom Likulam.

Moshe

*********************


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