Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 226

Tuesday, December 28 1999

• RE: Orthodoxy and return of land
• Re: Re[2]: Kollel support (was problem kids)
• Re: Orthodoxy and return of land
• Re: Orthodoxy and return of land
• Re[4]: Kollel support (was problem kids)
• Re[2]: Military Halacha question - humor
• NIMBY
• Chaf Teives - The Yom Hilula of the Rambam
• Re: Orthodoxy and the Land of Israel
• Re: School visits/inspections
• Re: Jews of yesteryear and wigs
• Re: Orthodoxy and the Return of Land
• Re: Orthodoxy and the Land of Israel
• Re: Orthodoxy and the Return of Land
• Re: Orthodoxy and return of land
• Re: Orthodoxy and return of land
• Re: Orthodoxy and the Return of Land
• Re: Orthodoxy and the Land of Israel

--- Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> past year.
> 
> Arabic Educational TV for kids under 12 years old is
> *full* of Jihad
> messages. Praises for the martyrs who blow
> themselves up killing Jews.
> Scenes of kids holding rifles and bombs pledging to
> liberate palestine with
> their blood. Poems about how the Jews came and
> slaughtered palestinians.
> 
> what message are these kids growing up with?
> 
> Are they promoting peace or hatred?

How often I remember as a child using "Shvartzes" as
an example of evil on the part of Rebbeim, especially
those Rebbeim who were originally from NY!

I can tell you prejudice works both ways.  We are all
guilty of stereotyping at best and villifying at worst
those who are different from us.  

That the Arabs hate us is not a Chidush.  That they
villify us to their children is a sad but true fact.

We all preach the platitudes of tolerance but
practicing tolerance usually ends up with the slogan:
NIMBY whether this refers to "shvartzes" or Arabs.

Hopefully, there will come a time that the ultimate
good of tolerance will overcome the constsnt battering
of intolerance that is instilled in those Arab kids. 
The more Arabs are extracted from their primitive and
insulated world through contact with the world outside
of Islam, the more that tolerance will be come a way
of life. This wiil happen because of the explosion of
mass telecommunications. No longer can anyone be
insulated completely from the outside world. TV,
movies, radio, music, and the the internet all
contribute. Iran has tried to isolate it's people from
western culture and is ultimately failing.

Lest you use the Bir Zeit argument, i.e. that better
education of Arabs has made them even more rabidly
ant-Jewish, please understand the nature of this
eduction.  It is not objective. Islamic Fundementalism
drives universities like Bir Zeit. I believe that,
with rare exception, when exposed to enlightened
western twentieth century, standards of tolerance,
over substantial periods of time, Arabs are weaned
away from the primitive rigid concepts of Muhamed and
move toward tolerance.  

HM
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--- richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> I don't know if Harry intended this, but ONE road to
> excleelence would be to 
> throw as much discouragement and obstacles in the
> way of a prospective Gadol, 
> and to let him grow via the muscles he flexes in
> overcoming them.


I don't advocate this.  Obstacles should NEVER
purposely be put in the way of someone who strives
toward Gadlus.

I do, however, agree that obstacles, when they do
occur, very often do enhance one's chance of rising
above them to Gadlus.  I've often noted that some of
the people I admire the most and who are the most
successful in Torah endeavors, are those who go
through and overcome adversity on their journey.

That doesn't however mean we have to throw obstacles
in front of our students.  They could have a very
debilitating oppossite effect, and, can and do produce
militant Apikursim, RL.

HM
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Harry Maryles wrote:


> We all preach the platitudes of tolerance but
> practicing tolerance usually ends up with the slogan:
> NIMBY whether this refers to "shvartzes" or Arabs.


What does NIMBY mean?



I'm not at all comfortable with the sentiments expressed in this post.
Replace all the instances of "Arab" with Jew, "Islam" with Judaism, and
Iran with the Eida Haredit, and you have exactly what the hilonim say
about us. Closed society, intolerant, primitive. What's the difference
then?




> Hopefully, there will come a time that the ultimate
> good of tolerance will overcome the constsnt battering
> of intolerance that is instilled in those Arab kids. 
> The more Arabs are extracted from their primitive and
> insulated world through contact with the world outside
> of Islam, the more that tolerance will be come a way
> of life. This wiil happen because of the explosion of
> mass telecommunications. No longer can anyone be
> insulated completely from the outside world. TV,
> movies, radio, music, and the the internet all
> contribute. Iran has tried to isolate it's people from
> western culture and is ultimately failing.
> 



---sam

--- Sammy Ominsky <sambo@charm.net> wrote:

>
> What does NIMBY mean?

Not In My Back Yard
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not at all comfortable with the sentiments
> expressed in this post.
> Replace all the instances of "Arab" with Jew,
> "Islam" with Judaism, and
> Iran with the Eida Haredit, and you have exactly
> what the hilonim say
> about us. Closed society, intolerant, primitive.
> What's the difference
> then?

As I said, we are all guilty of stereotyping.  The
Chilonim stereotype us we stereotype them, etc. I'm
not comfortable with steotyping either and I admit
that I am just as guilty.  I DO try not to, and
appreciate it when it's pointed out.

As for the Chilonim stereotyping Caharedim etc.  It's
high time we did something about that.  It's time to
stop bashing each other and to find ways so that we
can live together.  We have to stop shiving religion
down their throats and they have to stop forcing
chilulul Shabbos and Tarfus down our throats.  

More to be said... No time.

HM
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Neither do I, it's more of an observation rather than a recommnedation..

Though don't we all agree that the best soldiers are those tested in battle?

Rich wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________



I don't advocate this.  Obstacles should NEVER 
purposely be put in the way of someone who strives 
toward Gadlus.

<snip>

HM

is this a case of Don't Ask Don't Tell? <smile>

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
and historically Orthodox chaplains have handed them out with out 
giving it much thought or objection from the gedolim of the past 
few decades and before...

NIBMY= Not in my backyard

Rich W.

Something interesting that just came my way...

Rich W/


______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________
Subject: Chaf Teives - The Yom Hilula of the Rambam 

Directives For Teives 

Chaf Teives - The Yom Hilula of the Rambam 

The Rambam intended his masterpiece, Mishneh Torah, to be learned by all 
Jews in all generations. Certainly, his yahrtzeit, the day commemorating 
the histalkus of such a great tzaddik, should be observed by and lead to 
an increase in Torah and mitzvos by everyone. (Sicha Motzaei Chaf Teives 
5750) 

One of the best ways to observe the Rambam's yahrtzeit is to learn 
Mishneh Torah, because it discusses the laws of the entire Torah. It 
even discusses laws pertaining to the times of the Beis HaMikdash 
[which other works of halacha do not mention because of it's limited 
practical application at the moment], as well as the laws that will 
apply when the Beis HaMikdash is rebuilt. To observe the day in the 
proper spirit, it is a good idea to begin to participate in the study 
of the Mishneh Torah, or to increase the quality of one's present 
study. Some people are able to learn regularly three chapters a day, 
some one chapter a day, and some learn Seifer HaMitzvos instead. It is 
especially apropos to learn the laws pertaining to Moshiach, which are 
found in the final two chapters of "Hilchos Melachim" at the end of 
Mishneh Torah. (Sicha Shmos 5752) 

In addition, it is a good idea to convince others - men, women, and 
children - to do everything mentioned above. The Rambam's yahrtzeit is 
a good time to mention again that those who have the opportunity should 
exert greater effort in promoting the daily study of Mishneh Torah, [by 
organizing or teaching shiurim, or] by studying three chapters a day, 
in order to complete the whole seifer each year. (Sicha Motzaei Chaf 
Teives 5750) 

<snip>

In a message dated 12/28/99 12:06:36 AM US Central Standard Time, 
sherer@actcom.co.il writes:

<< 
 With all due respect to RYGB (and I have great respect for him and 
 don't in any way mean to cast doubt upon his motives), he is 
 making an argument that is much easier to make from Chicago 
 than from almost anyplace here in Israel. 
  >>

Nothing about RYGB's argument was "easy," especially for a Torah scholar of 
his reputation. RYGB lives in Chicago. It would have been better for him had 
he made his argument while on vacation in, say, Tasmania.


<<Eight years of living here and becoming more and more of a cynic 
with each passing day has taught me that the IDF isn't what it 
used to be either.
>>

Maybe not. Military organizations have to keep reforming themselves into 
order to avoid bureaucratic staleness and retain high battle standards. I'd 
guess that the IDF's battle standards remain extremely high, but internal 
reform has given it the outward appearance of disorder. 

Armies are also intensely political. Sometimes this means that complete 
idiots get promoted to high positions. Sometimes it means that relatively 
junior officers get promoted over the heads of their superiors. This can be 
good as well as bad. Eisenhower, for example. Whatever any of us might think 
of him as an American president, his extraordinary talents at holding the 
Allied armies together during World War II had as much as anything to do with 
the ultimate victory. That's why you and I are alive. Those talents 
themselves were largely bureaucratic and political -- and therefore as 
available for cynical comment as anything Barak or other IDF bureaucrats have 
done. 

Maybe it was Eisenhower's native-born optimism. Optimism is a much-maligned 
American characteristic. Perhaps you are making an argument that is much 
easier to make from EY than from almost anyplace here in America.

<<The "Palestinians" are a creation of the Arab states. They don't exist as 
an independent entity except to the extent that they have been built up by 
the Arab 
States and their apologists in the west. Look at the true stories of Arafat's 
and Said's backgrounds (among others) which have come out in places like 
Commentary over the last couple of years. To the extent that there are Arabs 
who are indigenous to the Land of Israel, most of them are willing to live in 
peace with us, and most of 
them have nothing to do with the PLO leadership.
>>

No question that as a people and a pseudo-nation (or a nation and 
pseudo-people) the Palestinians are a creation of intra-Arab politics and 
propaganda. On the other hand, they're there, and they aren't going away. If 
Israel doesn't deal with them one way, it'll have to deal with them some 
other way -- but deal Israel must. Kicking and screaming about PLO duplicity 
isn't going to help. Of course the PLO is beneath contempt. We all know that. 
Now what, actually and pragmatically, are you going to do about it?


<<So you're suggesting that we should all stay in golus? That we can 
throw away the mitzvos of Yishuv Haaretz and all of the mitzvos 
hatluyos baaretz until Mashiach comes? Maybe you want to 
reinstate the Shvuous? Maybe those of us who have had the guts 
to move here should pick up and come back because Judaism is 
being reborn in the American golus?
>>

No. I admire anyone who has made Aliyah. But the majority of Jews are going 
to continue living in places other than Israel. I am unaware of any teaching 
to the effect that HaShem will reward us with the rebuilding of the Temple on 
the basis only of the conduct of Jews living in EY. In other words, like it 
or not, the "merit" of Kol Yisrael will as a practical matter depend on what 
we do in golus. 

Also, the experience of golus has created the rules of observance that make 
up Orthodox Judaism. Yiddishkeit is golus, period. We have yet to earn the 
promise of EY. In that respect, all of us -- Israelis included -- remain 
metaphorically in golus.

David Finch

RD Finch wrote:

>>Why do so many observant Jews shun modern scholarly works on Jewish 
religiosity? I'm thinking of Isadore Twersky, Marvin Fox, Menachem Kellner, 
Gershom Scholem, Benzion Netanyahu, etc., all of whom understand and accept 
Orthodoxy. (I'm not thinking of Jacob Neusner, although personally I'd include 
him in that group.)>>

I don't know that Scholem should be in that list.


>>Nothing in these books really undermines frumkeit. The intellectual challenges
they pose are quite exciting. Is it because these authors assume the reader is 
somewhat knowledgeable about history, secular and X-tian philosophy, etc.?>>

First of all, they freely introduce Christian and kefirah-dik concepts which are
assur for most people to learn.  See the back-and-forth between Rabbi Yehudah 
Parnes and Rabbi David Berger in the first few issues of the Torah U'Madda 
journal.  Even RD Berger agrees that these topics are only mutar for yechidim 
who are prepared to handle these issues.  RY Parnes assurs them entirely.

>>Is it because the authors ask too many of the wrong questions? Is it because 
they compete intellectually in the secular marketplace?>>

I recently read Menachem Kellner's book Must A Jew Believe Anything?  I was 
appalled by it.  Not by his conclusions which, despite his claims of a "new 
approach," seem fairly standard if not almost identical with the Sefer 
HaIkkarim's.  What I found wrong is 1) his dealing with the famous mishnah in 
Chelek and 2) his laughable assumption that Rabbi Yehudah Parnes, Rabbi Mayer 
Schiller (!), and Rabbi J David Bleich are representative of normative modern 
orthodoxy.  I'm not kidding.  3) He also dismissed the opinion of Rabbi Elchanan
Wasserman out of hand (in a footnote) with a mistaken understanding of his 
position and 4) totally dismissed what he called "Brisker pan-halakhism."

In other words, like most secular scholars he tries to find a "new approach" 
while trampling on the traditional approaches we are supposed to respect.  Yes, 
I learned my lesson.

In general, the authors use too much obscure terminology and references to 
appeal to the average (or above average) yeshiva bochur.

RH Maryles wrote:

>>>> (Sheitels:)
>>>>  Are we blindly going along, because
>>>> that's today's standard 
>>>> uniform, or is this a requirement and the Rabbi's
>>>> wives were sinners? 

>>It's a requiremant. They were all sinners.

Before I got married I broached the subject with a descendant of RYB 
Soloveitchik who, despite his negiah bedavar, said explicitly that women must 
cover all of their hair.  He also told me that the Rav had responded the same to
his talmidim.  He (not the Rav) was willing to be lenient about less than a 
tefach.

In a message dated 12/28/99 7:44:09 AM US Central Standard Time, 
shlomog@mehish.co.il writes:

<< <<<<Why is Barak more trustworthy than Sharon?>>
 
 Character. Outlook. Self-control. Degree of self-absorption. Degree of
 narcissistic disregard for pluralistic concerns. Extent to which personal
 ambition is treated as HaShem's Holy Plan. Have I missed anything?
 >>
 
 Are you personally acquainted with Barak?  With all due respect, I
 suspect the above may be a regurgitation of some Newsweek article.
 Personally. I don't think it is helpful to reduce this whole discussion
 to a black-and-white, Barak/Sharon dichotomy.  There are a lot
 more impressive players out there, and the issues are a lot more complex.
 (By the way, Barak and Sharon happen to be personal friends, and have
 conducted (as reported by the media) a fair number of off-the-record
 discussions on security issues in the past months -- confusing the picture
 even more!)
  >>

I have, on occasion, regurgitated Newsweek articles, shortly after reading 
them, turning green, and running to the washroom while holding my hand 
against my face. My views on Barak and Sharon, however, come from other 
sources. What I know of Barak comes strictly from what I've read and heard, 
and might therefore be incorrect. (I certainly hope not, for all our sakes.) 
Sharon, however, is another matter. I've been following his career for 35 
years. He's a really scary character, not just in comparison with Barak. I 
won't try to defend what I think of him; it's all unprintable anyway.

The fact, however, that Barak and Sharon get along with each other is very 
heartening. Without pragmatism, Israel would be long gone by now.

David Finch

On 28 Dec 99, at 11:33, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/28/99 12:06:36 AM US Central Standard Time, 
> sherer@actcom.co.il writes:

> <<So you're suggesting that we should all stay in golus? That we can 
> throw away the mitzvos of Yishuv Haaretz and all of the mitzvos 
> hatluyos baaretz until Mashiach comes? Maybe you want to 
> reinstate the Shvuous? Maybe those of us who have had the guts 
> to move here should pick up and come back because Judaism is 
> being reborn in the American golus?
> >>
> 
> No. I admire anyone who has made Aliyah. But the majority of Jews are going 
> to continue living in places other than Israel. I am unaware of any teaching 
> to the effect that HaShem will reward us with the rebuilding of the Temple on 
> the basis only of the conduct of Jews living in EY. 

See the Ramban al HaTorah in numerous places (I don't have a 
Ramban with me, but "zeh shaar hashamayim" in Parshas 
VaYetzei and the last Ramban in Acharei Mos come to mind) 
where he says that keeping mitzvos anywhere other than Eretz 
Yisrael is only for practice.

BTW - I think there may be as many Jews in EY today as there are 
in golus, and with the rate of hisbollelus in golus R"L the 
percentage of Jews who live in EY is likely to increase in the future.

In other words, like it 
> or not, the "merit" of Kol Yisrael will as a practical matter depend on what 
> we do in golus. 

I question whether that is true today. We have discussed at length 
before the amount of Torah learning going on in EY as compared 
with golus, the number of Torah scholars being produced in EY as 
opposed to those being produced in golus. I think the center of 
gravity of Orthodoxy has shifted dramatically towards Eretz Yisrael 
in the last 30 years or so.

> Also, the experience of golus has created the rules of observance that make 
> up Orthodox Judaism. Yiddishkeit is golus, period. We have yet to earn the 
> promise of EY. In that respect, all of us -- Israelis included -- remain 
> metaphorically in golus.

I do not question that metaphorically we in Eretz Yisrael are still in 
golus (ha raaya that last night a demonstration was held on Har 
HaTzofim to protest desecration of the Har haBayis to which we 
are forbidden access). I do question whether Yiddishkeit today can 
be defined as golus.

I refrained from answering the rest of your contentions out of 
deference to the list moderator's request that the topic be dropped.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Shlomo Godick wrote:

> KT,
> Shlomo Godick

  Kol HaKavoud
steve

Carl M. Sherer wrote:

> Very Well Said. Kol HaKavoud

steve

> Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
> Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
> Thank you very much.

R Hershel, you keep repeating the same line without answering any of R
Carl Sherer's well stated points.

Harry Maryles wrote:

> How often I remember as a child using "Shvartzes" as
> an example of evil on the part of Rebbeim, especially
> those Rebbeim who were originally from NY!
>
> I can tell you prejudice works both ways.  We are all
> guilty of stereotyping at best and villifying at worst
> those who are different from us.
>
> That the Arabs hate us is not a Chidush.  That they
> villify us to their children is a sad but true fact.
>
> We all preach the platitudes of tolerance but
> practicing tolerance usually ends up with the slogan:
> NIMBY whether this refers to "shvartzes" or Arabs.
>
> Hopefully, there will come a time that the ultimate
> good of tolerance will overcome the constsnt battering
> of intolerance that is instilled in those Arab kids.
> The more Arabs are extracted from their primitive and
> insulated world through contact with the world outside
> of Islam, the more that tolerance will be come a way
> of life. This wiil happen because of the explosion of
> mass telecommunications. No longer can anyone be
> insulated completely from the outside world. TV,
> movies, radio, music, and the the internet all
> contribute. Iran has tried to isolate it's people from
> western culture and is ultimately failing.
>
> Lest you use the Bir Zeit argument, i.e. that better
> education of Arabs has made them even more rabidly
> ant-Jewish, please understand the nature of this
> eduction.  It is not objective. Islamic Fundementalism
> drives universities like Bir Zeit. I believe that,
> with rare exception, when exposed to enlightened
> western twentieth century, standards of tolerance,
> over substantial periods of time, Arabs are weaned
> away from the primitive rigid concepts of Muhamed and
> move toward tolerance.
>
> HM
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://messenger.yahoo.com

In a message dated 12/27/99 10:08:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
DFinchPC@aol.com writes:

<< 
 I certainly take your word for it, as I very little about the Civil War. 
 Maybe I should have compared Barak to Omar Bradley. I hesitate to say to 
whom 
 I'd compare Sharon.
  >>

Sharon?  Hmm...John Bell Hood. Lost Atlanta to Sherman. Devastating Brigade 
and Division commander, failure as a grand strategist.

Jordan

In a message dated 12/28/99 11:14:58 AM US Central Standard Time, 
cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:

<< See the Ramban al HaTorah in numerous places (I don't have a 
 Ramban with me, but "zeh shaar hashamayim" in Parshas 
 VaYetzei and the last Ramban in Acharei Mos come to mind) 
 where he says that keeping mitzvos anywhere other than Eretz 
 Yisrael is only for practice.
  >>

I guess that's what we mean when some of us say we are "practicing" Jews! 

Do you think that in this context, the Ramban was referring to our exile from 
the real estate that comprises Israel? Or did he mean the state of exile from 
which HaShem has promised us redemption based on repentence? My reading of 
Ramban's commentary on "aph ani e'eseh zoth lachem" (Parshat Bechukothai) 
suggests the latter. Even in the Ramban's view, we're all still carrying out 
mitvos "only for practice," even if we live in Mea Sharim. Anyhow, this isn't 
baseball. Our conduct during the warm-ups count. What else will redeem us?


<>

As I understand the term, Yiddishkeit is an historical phenomenon. It 
describes the way of life that evolved within Ashkenaz, the intellectual 
foundations of which owe just about everything to the pain and yearning we 
suffered in European golus. To the extent RW Orthodoxy sets out to preserve 
the Ashkenaz way of life by warding off modern influences (be they Israeli, 
American, British, or otherwise), there's still Yiddishkeit, but it is no 
longer influenced by the evolution of place or time. So I'm not sure one can 
say that Yiddishkeit has escaped golus. 

David Finch

*********************


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