Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 225

Tuesday, December 28 1999

• Re: G'dolim
• re: An Economist's View of Chareidim
• re: Orthodoxy and the Return of Land
• Re: G'dolim
• Re[2]: Kollel support (was problem kids)
• Re: Treatment of Arabs
• RE: return of land
• RE: G'dolim
• Re: An Economist's View of Chareidim
• Re: May-ain Sheva (MB index)
• Re: Military Halacha question
• Re: G'dolim
• Re: Bes Din
• Re: Beis Din
• Re: Batei Din

On 27 Dec 99, at 22:43, Chana Baila Press wrote:

> It seems pointless to talk about "the right way" to produce
> a godol.
> G'dolim have been produced in many venues - Rav Aharon
> learned
> in Slabodka, Rav Chaim Ozer in Volozhin, the Chazon Ish by
> himself,etc.  Why must we ceaselessly look for the one
> correct
> route?

I agree with you. I don't think there is one correct route to produce 
a Gadol. But much of Israel and many quarters of the States are 
sold today on the Desslerian philosophy (or so it has been 
characterized here - does someone have a cite? Is it in the 
Michtav?) that 1000 go in for each one that comes out as a 
justification for not making a selection at some point in time.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

R. Micha Berger wrote: <<

Is it just my ignorance, or does the study ignore the existence of a yeitzer
hatov?

To put it in less religious terms: He discusses the value added to communal
membership, and therefore can discuss the cost of expressing that membership
in relation to it.

However, he overlooks the fact that many people spend money to assuage their
conscience -- IOW, just to do what they believe to be the right thing.   >>

Not only that, he looks upon the public as a monolith with a single
motivation,
ignoring the fact that it consists of various communities and, within
the communities, sundry individuals each with their sets of attitudes
and convictions, strengths and weaknesses.  And talk about economic
reductionism, as if everything in life can be reduced to dollars and
cents!  If I previously thought that economics was a pseudo-science
(and a questionable one at that), this study has only confirmed that
impression.

KT,
Shlomo Godick

RDFinch wrote: <<
In the meantime, the only way EY isn't going to eaten alive by its Arab
neighbors is if Israelis trust people like Barak and the soldiers who used
to
be under his command. These men and women think dispassionately, they plan
precisely, and if they fail, they die or suffer the guilt of letting other
Jews die. The rest of us get to talk, talk, and talk.  >>

While I sympathize with RYGB's views on this subject,  I must take issue
with the above as being, in my mind, simplistic.  Barak may or may not have
been a good soldier and general.  Most ramatcalim (chiefs of staff) achieve
their position as much due to luck and the right connections as to ability.
We recently saw a highly-regarded general, Matan Vilnai, passed over for
chief of staff because the then-Minister of Defense bore him a personal
grudge. I have heard criticism of Barak's record as an army commander,
in particular regarding his performance during the War in Lebanon.
(And, by the way, you said we should
"trust ... the soldiers who used to be under his command".  Do you mean
that  to include one Binyamin Netanyahu, who served under Barak
in the elite Sayerret Matcal?)

You can find  generals on both sides of the political fence on almost any
security issue you can mention. Why should I trust Barak over and
above other competent generals who
disagree with Barak (including his own Labor Party colleague and
Minister of Sport and Culture (and former general - see above) Matan
Vilnai, who just went on record as opposing withdrawal from the
Golan at this time)?   What makes you think that Barak thinks more
"dispassionately" and "precisely" than they do? There is no clear-cut
military consensus here, only chilukei de'ot and sfekot.

<<<<Why is Barak more trustworthy than Sharon?>>

Character. Outlook. Self-control. Degree of self-absorption. Degree of
narcissistic disregard for pluralistic concerns. Extent to which personal
ambition is treated as HaShem's Holy Plan. Have I missed anything?
>>

Are you personally acquainted with Barak?  With all due respect, I
suspect the above may be a regurgitation of some Newsweek article.
Personally. I don't think it is helpful to reduce this whole discussion
to a black-and-white, Barak/Sharon dichotomy.  There are a lot
more impressive players out there, and the issues are a lot more complex.
(By the way, Barak and Sharon happen to be personal friends, and have
conducted (as reported by the media) a fair number of off-the-record
discussions on security issues in the past months -- confusing the picture
even more!)

<<I certainly take your word for it, as I very little about the Civil War.
Maybe I should have compared Barak to Omar Bradley. I hesitate to say to
whom
I'd compare Sharon. >>

Where is your hakaras ha-tov?   I am no admirer of Sharon and find much
in him to criticize, but the fact remains that the Jewish nation owes him
a debt of gratitude for his role (b'siyata d'shmaya, of course)  in turning
the
tide in the Yom Kippur War, when, in Moshe Dayan's words, we thought
we were witnessing "churban bayis shlishi". Try to see the balanced picture.

RWW wrote: <<
And we can look at the partition of India/Pakistan as analogous; there they
separate Hindus from Moslems, here we separate Jews from non Jews. >>

Are you sure you like that analogy?  India today hosts a sizable, minority
Moslem population today (with attendant bloody conflicts over mosques
and temples, etc.)

David Herskovic wrote: <<
If you're a gung ho Jewish supremacist spouting racist nonsense to
justify your stance and advocating a worshipping of land more akin to
paganism than to Judaism  you would do the same in Ireland without a
Torah to support you. And if you are lucky enough to possess the vision
to realise that war benefits no one and that peace is in everyone's
favour you would probably believe so wherever you lived and whichever
religion you belonged to.  >>

Again, why must complex issues be reduced to such simple-minded
either/or dichotomies?   Meile,  we are used to hearing that style of
talking in the street, where everybody enjoys painting themselves
white and the other side black . Can't we try to avoid it in our "nuanced"
(I like that word), intelligent discussion of the matter on Avodah?


KT,
Shlomo Godick

Economics

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


It seems pointless to talk about "the right way" to produce 
a godol.
G'dolim have been produced in many venues - Rav Aharon 
learned
in Slabodka, Rav Chaim Ozer in Volozhin, the Chazon Ish by 
himself,etc.  Why must we ceaselessly look for the one 
correct
route?

Melech

<snip>

As for beinmg given a chance to learn full time at a 
later stage in life... nothing wrong with that.  If, 
however, one is so inclined he shouldn't ask for 
financial support from the community to do so.  If the 
talent is truly there, he will rise to the occasion 
and "where there is a will - there is a way". In any 
case this is a relatively rare occurance in this day 
and age.

HM<<

I don't know if Harry intended this, but ONE road to excleelence would be to 
throw as much discouragement and obstacles in the way of a prospective Gadol, 
and to let him grow via the muscles he flexes in overcoming them.

I don't know anyone who actually proposes this technique, but, when you think 
about it, adversity did seem to suit Yoseif well!

Rich Wolpoe

please include the first half of the posuk:

Hashem oz l'amo yitein!

Peace thru strength!

I onced gave a drosho showing how Teddy Roosevelt, the saber rattling rough 
rider of San Juan hill, etc. won the Noble Peace Prize! Incongruous?  Not 
really.  This posuk illustrates the important point of peace thru strength.

I'll bet there are quite a few karate blakc-blets who can tell you that their 
inner confidence helped them to avoid being mugged on an occasion or 2.

Or to quote JFK, Let us not neogtiate out of fear, but let us not fear to 
negotiate.

In a real sense, the more strength Hashem grants Israel, the more peace there 
will be in the Middle Eastte.

Rich Wolpoe



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<SNIP>

Hashem yivarech et amo bashalom.

Moshe
______________________________________________________ 
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> Is that the way to feel less different? I should think that concurring
> with the majority of the Israeli electorate means being less not more
> different.

But it *ISN"T* a majority of the israeli electorate -- it's more like
30-40%.

But people don't want to hear that fact.

>
> How times are a changing. In Northern Ireland we have the Rev. Ian
> Paisley who eyn koykhoy elo bepe while in Israel his counterpart Rabbi
> Levinger wields a gun. One wonders who it was that received the
> 'blessing' of al kharbekho tikhye.

I don't know where you get your news, but R' Levinger hasn't been active
(press-wise or politic-wise) for years. I guess you don't keep up to date on
events here.

Stereotypes never go away, do they?

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-avodah@aishdas.org [mailto:owner-avodah@aishdas.org]On
> Behalf Of Carl M. Sherer
> Sent: 28 December 1999 15:33
> To: Chana Baila Press; avodah@aishdas.org
> Subject: Re: G'dolim
>
>
> On 27 Dec 99, at 22:43, Chana Baila Press wrote:
>
> > It seems pointless to talk about "the right way" to produce
> > a godol.
> > G'dolim have been produced in many venues - Rav Aharon
> > learned
> > in Slabodka, Rav Chaim Ozer in Volozhin, the Chazon Ish by
> > himself,etc.  Why must we ceaselessly look for the one
> > correct
> > route?
>
> I agree with you. I don't think there is one correct route to produce
> a Gadol. But much of Israel and many quarters of the States are
> sold today on the Desslerian philosophy (or so it has been
> characterized here - does someone have a cite? Is it in the
> Michtav?) that 1000 go in for each one that comes out as a
> justification for not making a selection at some point in time.

Try Michtav 3 page 356 (according to Low's article).

And read William Low's comments on the letter in ENCOUNTER (Feldheim
Publishers) page 204

Akiva

In a message dated 12/28/99 8:44:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
shlomog@mehish.co.il writes:

<< 
 Not only that, he looks upon the public as a monolith with a single
 motivation,
 ignoring the fact that it consists of various communities and, within
 the communities, sundry individuals each with their sets of attitudes
 and convictions, strengths and weaknesses.  And talk about economic
 reductionism, as if everything in life can be reduced to dollars and
 cents!  If I previously thought that economics was a pseudo-science
 (and a questionable one at that), this study has only confirmed that
 impression.
 
 KT,
 Shlomo Godick
  >>
Economics is the study of the allocation of scarce resources (including time) 
to unlimited demands (at least that's what Samuelson said it was about 30 
years ago).  Every individual and community makes these decisions on a moment 
by moment basis, and for all the philosophy in the world, how you spend those 
resources (especially at the margin -- what you do with your next free moment 
or dollar) empirically defines your priorities. Perhaps that is why the first 
question we'll be asked to give din vcheshbon on is nasata vnatata bemuna.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

PS  alternative explanation as to the reason that charedei men in chutz 
laaretz leave Yeshiva by 25 and in aretz its 40?.  Perhaps it is that they 
are more frum ?

Micha Berger wrote:



> According to RYBS, only "Amein YSh"R" and the final "Amein" are lihalachah,
> the rest are minhag.


Do you have his source for this? I'm curious. I can see limiting it to 
Amen YSh"R, as that's how Kadish is referred to in the Gemara (Berachot
3a), but what makes the final Amen stand out?


> So, for example, he would only give these two responses
> between Ge'ulah liTifilah during ma'ariv. I wonder what he holds WRT hallel.


Is there any way to find out?



> : Modim DeRabanan - Only the words "Modim Anahnu Lach"
> 
> A question about the sevara here:
> Why are these three words different than the rest of Modim diRabbanan?


I don't know that they are. But we have to say something. Avudarham writes
that when the shaliah zibur says Modim, the entire kehilah must bow and
recite the hoda'ah ketanah. The reason he gives is that while it's fine
for a servant to send a shaliah (zibur) to his Master with requests, it is
not proper for the same servant to acknowledge his Master through an
emmisary, so we must all individually accept the sovereignty of Hashem.

So instead of saying the three words have something about them that makes
them stand out, I would say they're probably used as a summation of the
entire paragraph at a time when we should limit our interruptions.

Modim Anahnu Lach. I guess that says it all.



---sam

I forwarded David Finch's original question (V4#204) to the 
chaplain here who is ex-military (and served in Saudi Arabia 
during the Gulf War). 
Here is his response (somewhat edited for length).
"A chaplain may certainly hold the soldiers hand and pray with him.
Since the church abolished last rites in the second Vatican council 
their is only an anointing of the sick which must be done by a priest.  Anything else is just prayers with the dying which would be 
permissible.  As to a more "Christian" final prayer any Christian 
soldier may say that with the dying so it has never been a problem 
not even when we were in Saudi. As for the water issue chaplains
are not issued holy water.  That only becomes "holy" if blessed by
a priest.  As a chaplain I have handed out crosses and Christian 
bibles and considering the halachic dilemma of wether or not 
Christianity is Avodah Zarah makes it even murkier...and 
historically Orthodox chaplains have handed them out with out 
giving it much thought or objection from the gedolim of the past 
few decades and before...

Vol. 3 p. 353
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
To: Chana Baila Press <cbpress@ix.netcom.com>; <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 7:32 AM
Subject: Re: G'dolim


> On 27 Dec 99, at 22:43, Chana Baila Press wrote:
> 
> > It seems pointless to talk about "the right way" to produce
> > a godol.
> > G'dolim have been produced in many venues - Rav Aharon
> > learned
> > in Slabodka, Rav Chaim Ozer in Volozhin, the Chazon Ish by
> > himself,etc.  Why must we ceaselessly look for the one
> > correct
> > route?
> 
> I agree with you. I don't think there is one correct route to produce 
> a Gadol. But much of Israel and many quarters of the States are 
> sold today on the Desslerian philosophy (or so it has been 
> characterized here - does someone have a cite? Is it in the 
> Michtav?) that 1000 go in for each one that comes out as a 
> justification for not making a selection at some point in time.
> 
> -- Carl
> 
> 
> Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
> Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
> Telephone 972-2-625-7751
> Fax 972-2-625-0461
> mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
> mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
> 
> Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
> Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
> Thank you very much.
> 

----- Original Message -----
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 25, 1999 11:29 PM
Subject: Bes Din


> From: "S Klagsbrun" <S.Klagsbrun@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> > Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #210
>
> <<I would urge you  to cease perpetuating the myth that a just resolution
> can be reached in adversarial situations through the use of Batai Dinim
> anywhere in North America.   You may inadvertently cause someone to seek
> justice in a Bais Din,  during the course of which a shtar birurin will
> usually be signed,  permanently diminishing their ability to seek redress
> through a court of law. I would think that as a G-d fearing person you
> would not want this on your conscience on Yom Kippur.>>
>
> Saying blanket loshon horah on all batei din and all of the dayanim who
> comprise them, amounting to a serious number of talmidei chachamim,  is
> an aveira I would not want on my conscience on Yom Kippur.

    Indeed it would seem that way.  This poster however ignores the awesome
responsibilty placed on dayanim.  When that responsibility is abused, even
in one instance, the entire inwitution becomes contaminated.
>
> It is fairly well known that there are batei din that are problematic,
> and Mr. Schwartz,  being an attorney,  may have special knowledge of this
> that the rest of us do not.  I assume Mr. Klagsbrun has like knowledge,
> and is not simply engaging in gratuitious sniping aka hotzo'as shem rah.

    Indeed that is the case.
>
> How wonderful it would be if they used this knowledge to work toward a
> solution rather than dragging all batei din through the mud,  to what end
> we can only speculate.

    The greated end is the reformation of Beth Din.  That can be
accomplished only if both the entire Jewish community demands it, and if the
corrupt Batei Din enact some very important reforms.  The "dragging all
batei din trough the mud" maybe can be understood as two things:  1.  An
expression of intense frustration with the status quo and 2. A sucker punch
to the batei din to improve.
>
> Gershon

----- Original Message -----
From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 1999 10:19 PM
Subject: re: Beis Din


> S Klagsbrun responded <<< Again, you make my argument for me. If we
> cannot depend on the leadership to keep the system honest, we must demand
> a change. >>>
>
> I think I'm missing something. Aren't "the leadership" and "the batei
> din" the same people?

    Fortunitely not.  But there is a grat deal of interchange.  The most
honest of rabbanim stay away from functioning as dayanim.

>
> First (R'? Mr? Mrs?) Klagbrun accuses virtually all batei din of
> corruption ("unless they had first hand knowladge that this particular
> bais din was the exception"). Okay, I understand that the libel laws make
> it difficult to accuse anyone of corruption, but can you suggest any
> batei din which are NOT corrupt? The RCA? Agudah? My local shul? Anyone?
> Such blanket statements suggest that you do not trust anyone. If this is
> so, then which leaders remain untainted? Exactly who are asking to make
> these changes?

    SAdly, since the most batei din not emply full time dayanim, and use
member rabbis and members of the batei din, the possibility for corruption
exists in all batei din.  Beth Din litigation has become little more than a
contest of procuring influence and ability to "speak the truth carelessly"
>
> Akiva Miller
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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See my prior analysis of this issue.

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: M. Press=20
  To: avodah@aishdas.org=20
  Sent: Sunday, December 26, 1999 10:39 PM
  Subject: Batei Din


  It is nothing short of amazing that several posters, based on their =
personal experiences,=20
  have urged list members to violate an unequivocal Issur D'Oraisa.  =
There is no=20
  question that there are corrupt Botei Din and little question that Mr. =
Klagsbrun's=20
  personal experiences are painful. At the same time it is nothing short =
of absurd to=20
  tar all Batei Din because of his experiences (Has he been to EVERY =
BEIS DIN in the US?).
  I can comment from my own experience that I was in an adversarial =
situation in a
  Beis Din and found it to be reasonable and fair - I know of several =
others that are
  regarded as honest.  The appropriate response to this problem is to =
accept reality,
  refuse to go to a dishonest Beis Din, and observe the Halacha.  No =
Beis Din will
  issue a Seruv against someone who says "I insist on going to Beis Din =
Ploni."

  Melech

  M. Press, Ph.D.
  Professor of Psychology, Touro College
  mpress@ix.netcom.com or melechp@touro.edu

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>See my prior analysis of this issue.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:mpress@ix.netcom.com" =
title=3Dmpress@ix.netcom.com>M. Press</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:avodah@aishdas.org"=20
  title=3Davodah@aishdas.org>avodah@aishdas.org</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 26, 1999 =
10:39=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Batei Din</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It is nothing short of amazing that =
several=20
  posters, based on their personal experiences, </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>have urged </FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>list=20
  members to violate an unequivocal Issur D'Oraisa.&nbsp; There is no=20
  </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>question that there are </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>corrupt Botei Din and little question that Mr. Klagsbrun's=20
</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>personal experiences are painful. =
</FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2>At the same time it is nothing short of absurd =
to=20
  </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>tar all Batei Din because of his =
</FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2>experiences (Has he been to EVERY BEIS DIN in =
the=20
  US?).</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I can comment from </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>my own experience that I was in an adversarial situation in=20
  a</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Beis Din and found </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>it to be reasonable and fair - I know of several others that=20
  are</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>regarded as honest.&nbsp; The =
appropriate=20
  </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>response to this problem is to =
accept=20
  reality,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>refuse to go to a dishonest Beis Din, =

  </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>and observe the Halacha.&nbsp; No =
Beis Din=20
  will</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>issue a Seruv against someone who =
says=20
  </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"I insist on going to Beis Din=20
  Ploni."</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Melech</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>M. Press, Ph.D.<BR>Professor =
of=20
  Psychology, Touro College<BR><A=20
  href=3D"mailto:mpress@ix.netcom.com">mpress@ix.netcom.com</A> or <A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:melechp@touro.edu">melechp@touro.edu</A></FONT></DIV></DIV=
></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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