Avodah Mailing List
Volume 04 : Number 215
Sunday, December 26 1999
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 15:58:07 EST
From: C1A1Brown@aol.com
Subject: Re: concern
<< As to the Old City, so far as I know, this was not an Old City issue but a
Har ha'Bayis issue. Since the '67 war the State of Israel has consistently
refrained from asserting its authority over the HhB. Ma ha'yom me'yomayim?<
There is a big difference between refraining from excercising your authority
and conceding that that authority is de facto invalid and illegal.
>>>Of course they are our concern. The Galil is just as kadosh as Yehuda
v'Shomron.<<<
I leave it to you to get that statement to jive with your original one that
'it is not for Orthodox Jewry to concern itself with the "return" of land to
the Arabs.' My point wasn't to take sides in the land-peace controversy, but
to take issue with your lack of concern. Unforunately far too many people
take an apathetic approach to issues in Eretz Yisreal, in effect creating a
religious Jewish identity with no national connection.
-CB
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Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 23:08:19 +0200
From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject: RE: Slap in the Face
> Indeed, Rashi is not relevant to our discussion. In fact,
> when the Shiv'im
> Zekeinim translated that pasuk for Ptolmey they changed that
> pasuk, as well
> as countless others (OK, they are countable). (I think we
> have noted this as
> precedent for Artscroll :-) .) The reason that in Lashon
> Ha'Kodesh that
> pasuk is written the way it is, is because of the overriding value of
> teaching the yesodos that Chazal and the Meforshim note there.
>
So in your opinion that Rashi is *only* relevant to that specific posuk, and
doesn't teach us a clal with regards to teaching Torah (and the possible
misinterpretation of those teachings)?
Akiva
===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274
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Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 14:20:30 -0500
From: "M. Press" <mpress@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: kolel
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As I have previously noted here,there is something of a straw man in =
HM's discussion of
Kolelim and their funding, at least in the US. First, the vast majority =
of Americans do not
remain in kolel past the age of 25, give or take some time. They then =
take jobs in Torah,
get secular training, etc. Secondly, the significant majority of =
students in non-selective
kolelim are supported not by the public but by their families (parents, =
in-laws, wives, etc.)
Those kolelim which are heavily dependent on public support are also =
generally highly
selective. Third, it is not at all evident that it is a harm either to =
the individual or to the
community to produce bnei Torah who will be baalei batim. I do not =
accept that all
those who learn for some years are doomed to poverty or beggary; =
certainly my
own experience both in the Flatbush community and at Touro College is =
that many
who have learned for some years then go on to training which prepares =
them for a
reasonable occupation. This is not to say that I disagree that there =
are some
who learn in kolel SOLELY because of communal pressure and not because =
of
any interest in becoming learned before they face the outside world. =
This latter
fact is irrelevant, though, in view of the fact that these kolelniks are =
most likely
to be in the settings where they are suported by family.
Melech
M. Press, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology, Touro College
mpress@ix.netcom.com or melechp@touro.edu
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<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As I have previously noted here,there =
is something=20
of a straw man in HM's discussion of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kolelim and their funding, at least in =
the=20
US. First, the vast majority of Americans do not</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>remain in kolel past the age of 25, =
give or take=20
some time. They then take jobs in Torah,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>get secular training, etc. =
Secondly, the=20
significant majority of students in non-selective</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>kolelim are supported not by the public =
but by=20
their families (parents, in-laws, wives, etc.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Those kolelim which are heavily =
dependent on public=20
support are also generally highly</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>selective. Third, it is not at all =
evident that it=20
is a harm either to the individual or to the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>community to produce bnei Torah who =
will be baalei=20
batim. I do not accept that all</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>those who learn for some years are =
doomed to=20
poverty or beggary; certainly my</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>own experience both in the Flatbush =
community and=20
at Touro College is that many</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>who have learned for some years then go =
on to=20
training which prepares them for a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>reasonable occupation. This is =
not to say=20
that I disagree that there are some</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>who learn in kolel SOLELY because of =
communal=20
pressure and not because of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>any interest in becoming learned before =
they face=20
the outside world. This latter</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>fact is irrelevant, though, in view of =
the fact=20
that these kolelniks are most likely</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>to be in the settings where they are =
suported by=20
family.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Melech</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>M. Press, Ph.D.<BR>Professor of =
Psychology, Touro=20
College<BR><A =
href=3D"mailto:mpress@ix.netcom.com">mpress@ix.netcom.com</A> or <A=20
href=3D"mailto:melechp@touro.edu">melechp@touro.edu</A></FONT></DIV></BOD=
Y></HTML>
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Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 15:46:32 -0600
From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject: Re: Slap in the Face
Yes. It needs, of course, to be reconciled with the Gemara in BK about
"ziyuf ha'Torah", v'yesh l'yashev.
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila ygb@aishdas.org
----- Original Message -----
From: Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 1999 3:08 PM
Subject: RE: Slap in the Face
> > Indeed, Rashi is not relevant to our discussion. In fact,
> > when the Shiv'im
> > Zekeinim translated that pasuk for Ptolmey they changed that
> > pasuk, as well
> > as countless others (OK, they are countable). (I think we
> > have noted this as
> > precedent for Artscroll :-) .) The reason that in Lashon
> > Ha'Kodesh that
> > pasuk is written the way it is, is because of the overriding value of
> > teaching the yesodos that Chazal and the Meforshim note there.
> >
>
> So in your opinion that Rashi is *only* relevant to that specific posuk,
and
> doesn't teach us a clal with regards to teaching Torah (and the possible
> misinterpretation of those teachings)?
>
> Akiva
>
> ===========================
> Akiva Atwood
> POB 27515
> Jerusalem, Israel 91274
>
>
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Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 15:49:22 -0600
From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject: Re: concern
----- Original Message -----
From: <C1A1Brown@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 1999 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: concern
> I leave it to you to get that statement to jive with your original one
that
> 'it is not for Orthodox Jewry to concern itself with the "return" of land
to
> the Arabs.' My point wasn't to take sides in the land-peace controversy,
but
>
When I said concern, I did not mean to preclude our theoretical and
emotional interest. I meant practical expression and involvement.
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila ygb@aishdas.org
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Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 16:54:15 -0500
From: "S Klagsbrun" <s.klagsbrun@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #214
From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Subject: Beis Din
A poster recently wrote <<< As for the fact that the state of 'botai din'
in general is one of complete perversion, corruption, ineptness and often
well intentioned naiveté, d'vorim hayiduim b'alma are generally exempt
from the rules of lashon harah. >>>
How did these things get to be "d'vorim hayiduim b'alma"?
Sorry, I cannot tell you the day this occured, but the situation is well
known. Even were it not, one who was aware of the situation would be
required to refrain from advising anyone to bring a case to a 'bais din'
unless they had first hand knowladge that this particular bais din was the
exception to the rule.
Somehow, despite fear of lawsuits and such, word gets out to the public
that Kashrus Hashgacha ABC is unreliable, with loads of stories to back
it up, whereas Hechsher XYZ is very reliable, with stories to back it up.
Initially, we take both stories with the appropriate salt, but as the
years go on and the stories add up, reputations are built or destroyed,
and - hopefully - deservedly so.
That is NOT what is happening with the Beis Din situation. Instead,
people are claiming that ALL Batei Din in general are corrupt. People
need to find a way to get these stories out to the public. I invite you
all to spread such stories with the same zeal as you do regarding
kashrus, and then perhaps we will succeed in educating the public as to
who is honest and who is corrupt, as has been done in the kashrus field.
My point exactly. The time has come (twenty years ago) to demand that our
leadership speak out against the abuses in the 'botao dinim' in this
country.
That poster continued, <<< If one were to feel the (lemming-like) need to
hold open some doubt as to the severity of this situation, one should do
so for themselves, not build fantastic images of available justice to be
shared with unfortunate litigants inexperienced enough in real-world
events to understand the nature of these fantasies. >>>
Count me in as one of your naive lemmings. WHAT ELSE DO YOU EXPECT? You
have experienced the horror stories, but I have not. If I ever need to go
to a Beis Din for something, I would go to one recommended by my rav, or
one led by some well-known rav/posek. What other options would I have?
Again, you make my arguement for me. If we cannot depend on the leadership
too keep the system honost, we must demand a chage.
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Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 14:18:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:Kollel support (was problem kids)
--- Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 12/24/99 3:38:39 PM Eastern
> Standard Time,
> katzco@sprintmail.com writes:
>
> << But for every young man who
> wants to sit in a BM and be supported, that's an
> entirely different story. In
> that regard RHM is on target.
> Shabbat Shalom
> steve >>
> But why the "best and the brightest"? Again - what
> is the source for this
> being the determinant for public support?
Who should we support... The "worst and the
stupidest"?
Another poster put it well. When it comes to Schar
than EFFORT is what counts. The gemmorah talks about
the three month journey to the Beis Hamedrash to
learn for just one day and then three months back.
That person gets Schar as if he learned the entire
year. But this schar is Min Hashomayim. We mortals on
earth who pay financial compensation want the best and
brightest because we want to produce the best Kle
Kodesh for society... whether it be Gedolei Hatorah,
Gedolei HaPoskim, Roshei Yeshiva, Roshei Kollel,
Rebbeim in high schools or mechanchim in elementey
school, or people involved in Kiruv. You name it the
list of jewish societal requirements is huge. If we
support less thean the best we are going to reap less
than the best. We don't need second rate poskim any
more than we need second rate doctors, or second rate
anything.
HM
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Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 14:25:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: problem kids
--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> As R' Steve Katz and R' Herschel Maryles rarely
> agree on anything in Daf
> Yomi, it is nice to see them agre on Avodah :-).
>
> I must, however, provide what I believe is called a
> "wet towel".
I believe the expression is "wet blanket"
>
> When I was in Sha'alvim, the Rosh Yeshiva told us
> that he once asked RSZ
> Auerbach if he was required to maintain in the
> Sha'alvim Kollel avreichim
> that would put in their "9-5", but were not
> exemplary scholars nor destined
> to become such. RSZA answered in the affirmative,
> that in our day and age it
> is necessary to provide near universal access to
> Kollel (to those who seek
> it) "kdei she'la'rechov yihyeh tzura".
What does "kdei she'la'rechov yihyeh tzura" mean?
HM
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Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 14:33:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: a humble pixel
--- Noah Witty <nwitty@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> I am happy that I was able to generate some thought
> on the topic. I am
> troubled by RHM's assertion that a certain
> philosopher or the ba'al Tanya
> "posited that all of our perceptions of corporealism
> are nothing more than
> the mind of G-d.
>
> The question is who thought of it first, Bishop
> Barkley or the Baal HaTanya?
> I'm not sure when Barkley
> lived."
>
> My question is: "If that is a true statement of
> existence, what is it
> exactly that obligates Jews to obey the Torah? It's
> all imaginary anyway."
>
> I await your response (or that of anyone else).
>
> NW
I'm not saying whether Berkley is right or not. But
even if you buy into that philosophy, the entire
system of Torah Hashkafa is included in it, including
our obligation to the Torah and are bechira ability to
reject it.
HM
HM
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Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 17:34:07 EST
From: DFinchPC@aol.com
Subject: Re: Kollel support (was problem kids)
In a message dated 12/26/99 4:18:37 PM US Central Standard Time,
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:
<< If we
support less thean the best we are going to reap less
than the best. We don't need second rate poskim any
more than we need second rate doctors, or second rate
anything. >>
The problem is not merely whether weed out all but the best and brightest.
The problem is overcoming the vast secular attractions the best and brightest
face. Had they been born in America in this era, the great Gedolim of the
past -- the Vilna Gaon, Rambam, Rashi, etc., etc. -- might well have ended up
running Wall Street law firms, or teaching at Yale, or doing brain surgery at
(literally) $75,000 a crack. If the Orthodox community can attract first-rate
minds to full-time Torah study, then lots of problems will take care of
themselves.
David Finch
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Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 14:37:08 PST
From: "Alan Davidson" <perzvi@hotmail.com>
Subject: Who gets to stay in Kollel?
Why should the kollel world be any different from the academic world (or any
other profession like law and medicine) whose existence and definition of
success depends more on the ability to successfully produce clones of
oneself than social utility to the broader society or community. Of course
I am not implying that kollelniks or University Professors or lawyers are
parasites but there becomes a point beyond which too many of them aren't a
good idea -- i.e., Kollel graduates who wind up having to attend college to
obtain parnossa versus teaching in yeshiva, Ph.D.'s in the social sciences
and humanities who teach at 5 different colleges for $2K per course, etc.
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Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 17:37:42 EST
From: DFinchPC@aol.com
Subject: Re: a humble pixel
In a message dated 12/26/99 4:33:37 PM US Central Standard Time,
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:
<< I'm not saying whether Berkley is right or not. But
even if you buy into that philosophy, the entire
system of Torah Hashkafa is included in it, including
our obligation to the Torah and are bechira ability to
reject it. >>
Not necessarily so. Berkeley said the tree didn't (at least in some sense --
no pun intended) exist. He didn't say G-d didn't exist, or even that he
didn't exist. He knew he existed, a la Descartes. His Idealism was less
all-encompassing that HM makes it out to be.
David Finch
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Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 18:28:20 -0500
From: "Noah Witty" <nwitty@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: May-ain Sheva (MB index)
Dear Reb Mordechai/Reb Daniel:
Here's another one for the index. And it comes with a story.
This past Friday night, I noticed that during May-ain Sheva, the sha+ACI-tz was
moving/dancing around and +ACI-shockling+ACI- be'eekur raglayim both while waiting
for the congregation to finish its part as well as during his solo.
After davening, I brought his attention to the fact that since may-ain sheva
acts as a chazaras ha-sha+ACI-tz, it should probably be treated as a shmoneh
esrai and one's feet should remain together and still (relatively).
To my surprise, he countered with +ACI-Well, that's why it's +ACo-may-ain+ACo- sheva.+ACI-
I said, +ACI-Not any more than may-ain shalosh.+ACI- Then he wanted to know where
it says so in the Mishna Brura. I also found this last comment surprisingly
provincial (lots of surprises): there are many things that are in the Bais
Yosef and Rama that are not in MB.
1) Anyway, If Rabbis Shiller/Eidensohn could determine a citation either
supporting or refuting my contention, I'd appreciate it.
2) I got the same type of response--but reversed--from someone who insisted
that it says somewhere in MB that a hefsek in Hallel Shalem (it was
Chanukah) for kedushah, amen-yehay shmaih rabba, etc., is +ACo-not+ACo- permitted.
I thought it odd that Hallel should be more chamur in this respect than
Krias Shma in the middle of the paragraph. And so again, a cite would be
appreciated. (Of course, Reb Morty, when I get to YU's seforim sale, I
expect that the index will be there+ACE-)
3) Comments pro and con are welcome on the responses of my Friday evening
sha+ACI-tz.
Respectfully,
Noach Witty
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Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 17:53:49 -0600
From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject: Re: problem kids
----- Original Message -----
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 1999 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: problem kids
> I believe the expression is "wet blanket"
>
Corrected.
>
> What does "kdei she'la'rechov yihyeh tzura" mean?
That Orthodox Jewish Society should have a more elevated character.
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila ygb@aishdas.org
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Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 23:55:20 +0200
From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject: Re: a humble pixel
> My question is: "If that is a true statement of existence, what is it
> exactly that obligates Jews to obey the Torah? It's all imaginary
anyway."
>
> I await your response (or that of anyone else).
>
> NW
Very very much b'kitzur- >
>You could say that from the point of view of G-d it is like imagination or
"virtual reality". However, from our point of view it is reality. You could
say we're like running programs in a great computer- though again, that
would seem to diminish us. We have to try to imagine a computer beyond scale
of the Universe. ( Let's forget "the Matrix" and even "Hitchhiker's Guide"
for this.) We all accept that the universe was designed and created by G-d-
but not out of independent energy. Rather we were created as it were,
WITHIN G-d. (Please consult "Inner Space"- Rav Aryeh Kaplan, and the Tanya
for explanation of tzimtzumim) Clearly, G-d must write the rules for the
entities in his virtual reality to follow. The difference between man and a
computer program is obviously qualitative beyond sophistication, since we
were designed with free choice in order to eventually be zocheh to the
shchina- (Ramchal- Derech Hashem). Our obligation in mitzvot is a means
for G-d to give to us in the most ultimate way. "mitzva" is a commandment,
but it is also based on the same root as "tzavta" = connection.
You might also want to check out some posts in my archives entitled "binary
reality" for more of the computer analogy. It's just a model. Mrs. G.
Atwood.
>
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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 02:43:13 +0200
From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject: Re: Slap in the Face
> >
> > > otherwise Rabbis So;oveitchik and ylctv"a Yosef
> > > would not have held that "returning" land is permissible.
> >
> > In exchange for a *true* peace.
> I do not believe that was or is part of the basis for their position.
There
> is no way to know if a peace is true or not when you sign the dotted line.
> One is permitted to risk an operation that is experimental and potentially
> fatal if it may save the patient's life (a famous teshuva by R' Chaim Ozer
> Grodzhenski in the Achiezer). Hu ha'din b'nidon didan.
When you know that part of the surgical team are convicted murderers with
very incomplete charata, I wouldn't want to be under the knife. And here
we are.
I trust you are keeping up to date with the news here.
I agree that it is possible to treat the kotel as an avodah zara. It is also
possible to gain a historical and spiritual perspective on Eretz Israel,
Jerusalem and Har haBayit and understand their true value in Yiddishkeit.
Our tefilas are filled with references. Surely we all agree on this. When we
daven with any kavana, do we take these as allegorical or abstract? Of
course we should care about these places.
Yes, of course we agree that we should behave with the highest standards of
derech eretz and ahavas habrios in all these issues. We should also expect
the same standards from our Arab cousins if we are truly together in a peace
process. We're not suggesting we should behave obnoxiously and dismiss the
reaction of the goyim- . We're suggesting we should act with the utmost
wisdom regarding pikuach nefesh and not worry that that may not be PC.
>
> Actually, I belive the sugya in Nedarim 54 states that all kelim in the
Beis
> Ha'Mikdash are subject to the halacha of "ba'u ba peritzim
va'yechaleluha",
> i.e., unlike the actual karka of the HhB they lose their kedusha when
seized
> by Goyim. So, no.
According to the midrash on the Megillah, the vessels from the Beis
hamikdash were used for wine without measure at Achashverosh's party. We
can say intellectually that, OK, the vessels weren't kodesh anymore anyway,
so why should that bother us? Doesn't it touch us at all anywhere?
Can we please get in touch with what we're talking about here? Can we
please just look at our sidurim and see what we're davenning for? One of
the worst aspects of galus is that we don't even realize how deep we are.
The kelim aren't just pieces of metal - they are remnants of an age of
superior spiritual consciousness. If we don't believe that, then we're
really in trouble. Would anyone allow the remains of a loved one to be
disturbed by a hostile party- even as much as a fingernail, because, hey,
it doesn't have any chius anymore so why object? Intellect is great, but we
have to operate with ten unified sephirot, not with just two or three.
Mrs. G. Atwood.
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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 00:54:27 +0200
From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject: Re: Fundementalist Christians
If anyone outside Chicago can get a copy
> of today's Tribune it would be very useful to read the
> above mentioned article to gain perspective on what
> Christian Fundementalists want, and the extent they
> are willing to got to acheive it.
>
> HM
Do you mean that Christian organizations are pulling the strings behind
Women in Green & Zo Artzenu? No way- not those people. They have enough
zeal from a Jewish perspective, I'm pretty sure they're not being
manipulated. Sure, "they" are watching...
> _________________________________________________________
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Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 20:06:07 EST
From: Joelirich@aol.com
Subject: Re: Kollel support (was problem kids)
In a message dated 12/26/99 5:18:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:
<<
> << But for every young man who
> wants to sit in a BM and be supported, that's an
> entirely different story. In
> that regard RHM is on target.
> Shabbat Shalom
> steve >>
> But why the "best and the brightest"? Again - what
> is the source for this
> being the determinant for public support?
Who should we support... The "worst and the
stupidest"? >>
One might conclude that you see only 2 possibilities - the best and the
brightest or the worst and the stupidest. IMHO there are actually other
possibilities - for example the one who "wants it" the most or a lottery for
that matter. So I ask you again - what is the source for the best and the
brightest being the determinant?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
We mortals on
earth who pay financial compensation want the best and
brightest because we want to produce the best Kle
Kodesh for society... whether it be Gedolei Hatorah,
Gedolei HaPoskim, Roshei Yeshiva, Roshei Kollel,
Rebbeim in high schools or mechanchim in elementey
school, or people involved in Kiruv. You name it the
list of jewish societal requirements is huge. If we
support less thean the best we are going to reap less
than the best. We don't need second rate poskim any
more than we need second rate doctors, or second rate
anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And so I assume that only the best and the brightest will make first rate
poskim and mechanchim - Can you support that from actual data? Would you
have allowed an illiterate like young Akiva into your Kollel? Why start at
kollel level - we all know that a great deal of community funds are used to
subsidize all levels of Yeshiva education and that there are clear signs that
many of the students won't make the big leagues - why not start weeding them
out as early as we can, teach them some practical halacha and send them on
their way.
I guess my real question is do we use the same standards of objective
potential and accomplishment in tora and "secular" areas.
Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich
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