Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 212

Saturday, December 25 1999

• Re: Avodah V4 #210
• Re: Avodah V4 #210
• Net Access
• Re: Chronology of Judah's children
• Re: Re[2]: problem kids
• Re: a humble pixel
• Re: Kollel and sustenance
• Re: Re[2]: problem kids
• Re: Re[2]: problem kids
• RE: Avodah V4 #210
• Re: a humble pixel
• Re: Avodah V4 #210
• Re: a humble pixel
• Re: a humble pixel
• Fundementalist Christians
• Re: Kollel and sustenance
• Wedding customs
• Child Raising Issues
• Re: problem kids
• Re: problem kids
• The use of laser for Eruv

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:46:33 +0200
From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject: Re: Beth Din

Subject: re: Beth Din


> R' Daniel Schwartz wrote <<< The Beth Din, it seems, doctored the
> contracts to confer it with authority to arbitrate visitation...  In
> short, the Beth Din falsified documents, and there is eyewitness
> testimony that the documents produced in court are not those signed by my
> client. >>>
>
> Why is no one willing to name names? Who are these people?
>
If we check out the halachos of loshon hara leto'eles in the Chafetz Chaim
we'll see that we're first obligated to be sure an avera has really been
done and to speak directly to the offenders.  If we suspect a Beis Din of
tampering with documents we have to go directly to the Rebbeim in that Beis
Din- preferably take along another Rav not connected with the case- (or his
hascama), and find out exactly what was done and why.
If it's still clearly not kosher and those Rebbeim don't want to listen,
then we may have an obligation to publish their names-  loshon hara
le'toeles.  We should also be sure we are free of any unworthy emotions and
agendas.   Mrs. G. Atwood.

------------------------------
From experience I can tell you that hiding from unpleasant facts regarding
the state of the Frum community behind a volume of Shmiras Halashon may be
very comforting but it also allows for the unchecked progression of inui
hadin, aivus hadin, and a host of other societal perversions cloaked in the
daylight repelling garb of piety.
Although as an adult in a free country you do have the right to indulge in
the fantasy that your naive suggestion for reversal of the obscenity
perpetuated under the guise of Din in the case cited by Mr. Schwartz would
have even the slightest benefit, I would urge you  to cease perpetuating the
myth that a just resolution can be reached in adversarial situations through
the use of Batai Dinim anywhere in North America.
You may inadvertently cause someone to seek justice in a Bais Din, during
the course of which a shtar birurin will usually be signed, permanently
diminishing their ability to seek redress through a court of law. I would
think that as a G-d fearing person you would not want this on your
conscience on Yom Kippur.

In all fairness, I must take very slight issue with RSK's statements.  I can
think of one totally honest mesader Gittin in New York.  If anyone wishes to
know who it is, pls inquire privately.
----- Original Message -----
From: S Klagsbrun <S.Klagsbrun@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>; <avodah-digest@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #210


>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:46:33 +0200
> From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
> Subject: Re: Beth Din
>
> Subject: re: Beth Din
>
>
> > R' Daniel Schwartz wrote <<< The Beth Din, it seems, doctored the
> > contracts to confer it with authority to arbitrate visitation...  In
> > short, the Beth Din falsified documents, and there is eyewitness
> > testimony that the documents produced in court are not those signed by
my
> > client. >>>
> >
> > Why is no one willing to name names? Who are these people?
> >
> If we check out the halachos of loshon hara leto'eles in the Chafetz Chaim
> we'll see that we're first obligated to be sure an avera has really been
> done and to speak directly to the offenders.  If we suspect a Beis Din of
> tampering with documents we have to go directly to the Rebbeim in that
Beis
> Din- preferably take along another Rav not connected with the case- (or
his
> hascama), and find out exactly what was done and why.
> If it's still clearly not kosher and those Rebbeim don't want to listen,
> then we may have an obligation to publish their names-  loshon hara
> le'toeles.  We should also be sure we are free of any unworthy emotions
and
> agendas.   Mrs. G. Atwood.
>
> ------------------------------
> From experience I can tell you that hiding from unpleasant facts regarding
> the state of the Frum community behind a volume of Shmiras Halashon may be
> very comforting but it also allows for the unchecked progression of inui
> hadin, aivus hadin, and a host of other societal perversions cloaked in
the
> daylight repelling garb of piety.
> Although as an adult in a free country you do have the right to indulge in
> the fantasy that your naive suggestion for reversal of the obscenity
> perpetuated under the guise of Din in the case cited by Mr. Schwartz would
> have even the slightest benefit, I would urge you  to cease perpetuating
the
> myth that a just resolution can be reached in adversarial situations
through
> the use of Batai Dinim anywhere in North America.
> You may inadvertently cause someone to seek justice in a Bais Din, during
> the course of which a shtar birurin will usually be signed, permanently
> diminishing their ability to seek redress through a court of law. I would
> think that as a G-d fearing person you would not want this on your
> conscience on Yom Kippur.
>
>

Question: Is koshernet a program that filters access to the Internet?

If yes, then why don't some-one come up with a Kosher ISP instead.  

If a household's only access was via a kosher ISP, it would probably prevent 
more abuse than via a fileter or firewall that might be more circumventable.

Rich Wolpoe 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Net Access 

	I am not looking for Koshernet style programs;  even if every site they 
go to is glatt kosher,  I'd rather they not be on when I am not aware of 
it.  This is both because of the fallibility of filters and pure time 
wasting.

	Suggestions?

R' David Glasner wrote:
> Would anyone care to take a stab at this one?

See the Ibn Ezra on Bereishis 38:1; this problem convinces him that the story 
recounted there actually occurred before the sale of Yosef.

Mordechai Torczyner
Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf

In a message dated 12/23/99 4:07:24 PM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< My Impression wrt RSR Hirsch was that we need BOTH tracks, an elitist 
track for 
 teh Yakovs of the world to be protected and sheltered in the tents of Torah 
and 
 a more inclusive track for those "Eisavs" who can be molded or influnced to 
go 
 in the right direction. >>

You might also think of schools that accommodate children of a ba'al teshuva, 
or someone who dreams of becoming one, or someone who could be taught that 
dream. Most American Jews are so far removed from the essence of this debate 
that they wouldn't know whether to make heads or tails of it. They need to be 
brought to the beauty of HaShem. As long as we worry about who owns a TV, 
we'll never be able to focus on educating the Jewish community at large. If 
we don't do that, we won't survive. It doesn't matter how many kids we 
procreate.

David Finch

In a message dated 12/23/99 4:45:50 PM US Central Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< To quell David Finch's objection: Gila isn't calling a person a pixel of
 the Divine "Image", she's calling us pixels in an image G-d is drawing,
 one that runs from Adam to Techiyas haMeisim (and beyond?). >>

Each of us is a complete image of HaShem's drawing, as well as a pixel within 
that drawing. That's the paradox.

David Finch

--- gil.student@citicorp.com wrote:

> 
> My point is simple.  Why is it relevant whether
> kollel was or was not for 
> the elite in Europe?

Because the model for everything the RW does is the
European model.  There IS some psuedomystical
attachment to "Die Alte Guta Tzeiten".  Indeed it was
R. Ahron Kotler's goal to transplant in it's entirety
the European Yeshiva and Kollel.  That meant that the
Transplanted American version was originaly elitist,
too.  And so it was during R. Aharon's tenure.  He
sought the "Best and the Brightest".  It was only
during the tenure of his son, R. Shneur,that the doors
of the yeshiva opened up.  This was likely due to, 1)a
supply/demand issue: an increased population of
students (demand) and a limited number of Yeshivos
Gedolos (supply)... and 2) the Desslarian philosophy
of throwing a 1000 students into the grinder in order
to produce one Gadol.  

IMHO, both the elitist approach and the need to
produce gedolim are both valid.  I don't think you
need to waste 999 students to get one Gadol.  Gedolim
become Gedolim through their own merit.  

I don't think the Vilna Gaon was in a Beis Hamedrash
with 1000 students.

He turned out OK

HM
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

--- richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
 
> My Impression wrt RSR Hirsch was that we need BOTH
> tracks, an elitist track for 
> teh Yakovs of the world to be protected and
> sheltered in the tents of Torah and 
> a more inclusive track for those "Eisavs" who can be
> molded or influnced to go 
> in the right direction.
> 
> My Mom was always vocal about supporting Jewish
> Trade Schools.  She would say 
> waht's wrong with being an electrician or plumber? 
> Indeed what is wrong if we 
> train frummer yiddn to make an honest living w/o
> having to be an Einstein or an 
> Illuy?  forgetting the Torah aspect, why should
> honest, sincere kids who are not
> scholarly be pressed into becoming
> Doctors/Laywer/CPA's/etc.  What's wrong with 
> a community that welcomes and accepts frum 
> builders/contractors/handymen/technicians/repairmen?

Don't get me wrong.  I am a major supporter of mass
torah education.  All members of Klal Israel born post
WWII should ideally receive or should have received a
general Torah education starting with the dayshool and
continuing post high school through at least one year
of Torah study without distraction, prefferably in
Israel. My quarrel is with does who go beyond 2 or 3
years of post high school study without a
corresponding secular education, whether in academia
or in the trade schools.  This is where elitism should
take over.  Only the best and the brightest should be
encouraged to continue on the Torah only track and
only if they so desire.  This is where high standards
and Bechinos for Avreichim should be established.

Also, in order to reconcile what may seem to be a
contradictory attitude on the part of some of my
posts, I'd like to add the following:

There is a time for elitism when trying to acheive
Gadlus and attracting top talent.

But when it comes to elitist schools at the elemenary
or high school level, this is counter-productive,
IMHO.

HM

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

In a message dated 12/23/99 9:44:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<<  Only the best and the brightest should be
 encouraged to continue on the Torah only track and
 only if they so desire.  This is where high standards
 and Bechinos for Avreichim should be established.
  >>
We've disagreed on this before.  Why exactly is intellectual ability to be 
the determinant of continued tora only learning - is the mitzvah of talmud 
tora a function of our efforts or accomplishments?  Is your statement limited 
to those who the public should support and to those who will go on to teach 
or be gdolim?  Should those who fail out have to repay the public support?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

>lthough as an adult in a free country you do have the right to indulge in
>the fantasy that your naive suggestion for reversal of the obscenity
>perpetuated under the guise of Din in the case cited by Mr. Schwartz would

Halacha forbids (with a few exceptions) accepting as truth anything told by
only *one* person (Mr. Schwartz in this case).

*Especially* when that person is an involved party.

> You may inadvertently cause someone to seek justice in a Bais
> Din, during
> the course of which a shtar birurin will usually be signed,
> permanently
> diminishing their ability to seek redress through a court of
> law.

Beis Din -- it's not just a good idea, it's *the law*.

Akiva

Oh, and might I suggest "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale
Carnegie?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671723650/o/qid=946015335/sr=8-2/002
-1056204-3880242

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.

----- Original Message -----
From: <DFinchPC@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: a humble pixel


> In a message dated 12/23/99 4:45:50 PM US Central Standard Time,
> micha@aishdas.org writes:
>
> << To quell David Finch's objection: Gila isn't calling a person a pixel
of
>  the Divine "Image", she's calling us pixels in an image G-d is drawing,
>  one that runs from Adam to Techiyas haMeisim (and beyond?). >>
>
> Each of us is a complete image of HaShem's drawing, as well as a pixel
within
> that drawing. That's the paradox.
>
> David Finch

So perhaps we're more like a hologram in G-d's imagination?
>

 ------------------------------
> >From experience I can tell you that hiding from unpleasant facts
regarding
> the state of the Frum community behind a volume of Shmiras Halashon may be
> very comforting but it also allows for the unchecked progression of inui
> hadin, aivus hadin, and a host of other societal perversions cloaked in
the
> daylight repelling garb of piety.
> Although as an adult in a free country you do have the right to indulge in
> the fantasy that your naive suggestion for reversal of the obscenity
> perpetuated under the guise of Din in the case cited by Mr. Schwartz would
> have even the slightest benefit, I would urge you  to cease perpetuating
the
> myth that a just resolution can be reached in adversarial situations
through
> the use of Batai Dinim anywhere in North America.
> You may inadvertently cause someone to seek justice in a Bais Din, during
> the course of which a shtar birurin will usually be signed, permanently
> diminishing their ability to seek redress through a court of law. I would
> think that as a G-d fearing person you would not want this on your
> conscience on Yom Kippur.

Hiding?  Chalila! On the contrary-  we're interesting in moving towards
constructive  solutions with wisdom, discretion and courage.
Let's take the halachos of loshon hara further.  In a case where a proved
guilty party will definitely not listen we are not obliged to approach him
directly.  In some cases publication can do more harm than good.  Daniel
Schwartz is concerned about libel suits. If that is a valid concern, it may
be da'as Torah to advise people davka not to go to a particular Beis Din
which has PROVEN to be corrupt.  Obviously it can't end there- appropriate
discrete action must be taken. "Where there is no man- be a man".

Let's also not be naive re the litigants.  Many parties are simply looking
for the best deal.  In some cases they NEED a better deal than the Beis Din
might give them, In other cases they just stand to gain more money or lose
less-  a powerful incentive. Where's the respect for din Torah in such
cases?  In the former cases-  again- make a real appeal to the relevant
authorities- or take some other appropriate action.
In the case of child support a man may prefer the secular court since there
he will be obligated to give according to his earnings rather than according
to his x wife's needs. I've heard of lawyers advising a man to lose his job
so that his payments will be less. I suppose a lot depends on where you are
and who you're dealing with- each case is going to be different.  How much
can a Beis Din do al pi halacha to keep clients within the bounds of Din
Torah?  This is worth exploring. If you're on site and you know for sure
they're  going  outside these bounds, then again-  get organized & do
something specific about it.  "Raising awareness" by armchair blanket
condemnations is not the real solution.

In terms of Yom Kippur and yiras chet-  list members should  be very careful
of general  accusations of corruption on the part of Batei Dinim and
Rebbeim. A good and peaceful Shabbos. Mrs. GA
>
>

--- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> RHM writes:
> :                                           [Bishop
> Berkley]
> : therefore posited that all of our perceptions of
> : corporealism  are nothing more than the mind of
> G-d. 
> 
> I understood his position to be that all that exists
> are our perceptions.
> There is no "underlying reality" being perceived. I
> don't remember a
> theological aspect to it.

Berkley further stated that since perceptions rely
solely upon the senses, then if the 5 sesnses would be
totally eliminated there would be nothing. He
therefore, concluded that all of existence is only a
"thought" of G-d's.

HM
_________________________________________________________
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In a message dated 12/24/99 3:30:15 AM US Central Standard Time, 
gatwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< So perhaps we're more like a hologram in G-d's imagination? >>

I dunno. Maybe each of us is, in our completeness, no more than a figment of 
G-d's imagination, pixel or otherwise. His power is as wide as his 
imagination, which is limitless. Our power is nonexistent, unless G-d wills 
it, i.e., "imagines" it for purposes of His own. Anyhow, G-d doesn't have to 
rely on a crude, gimmicky device like a hologram. He can borrow the really 
sophisticated computerized stuff at Lucasfilms and make "Star Wars: The 
Absolute, Final Chapter" -- all on His own.

David Finch

I couldn't find it in the internet addition for some
reason but in todays print addition of the Chicago
Tribune, there is a front page story (Incuding a large
front page color picture) about the nature of present
day thinking on the part of Christian Fundementalists
clearly delineating what I have said about them, i.e.
that they are most interested right now in rebuilding
the Beis Hamikdash.  To that extent they are
associating themselves with the Temple mount faithful
and like organizations in Israel. 

This is the way they read their biblical prophecy. 
Required before the second coming: 1) the Jews must
regain possesion of the Holy land (acheived in 1948 );
2)recapturing controll of Jerusalem (achieved in
1967); 3) building of Bayis Shlishi, which many of
them are working very hard to acheive.

So, in light of that recent post forwarded to Avodah
on why we are not doing anything about the matzav in
Eretz Israel and the exhortation to protet loudly,
"It's the israeli way", it behoves us to have some
restraint and reflect on the possible consequences of
our action.  If anyone outside Chicago can get a copy
of today's Tribune it would be very useful to read the
above mentioned article to gain perspective on what
Christian Fundementalists want, and the extent they
are willing to got to acheive it.

HM
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

I need to apologize for a lot of inaccuracies in my earlier post about 
Europe.  Of course there really were yeshivas before Volozhin.  My point 
was and remains that decisions about what is appropriate today should not 
be made based on one person's recollection of their or their grandfather's 
life in Europe.

> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:32:22 EST
> From: Joelirich@aol.com
> Subject: Re:Wedding customs 

> PS I believe there was previous discussion on the source of the term 
> "vort" for an engagement gathering - could some kind soul remind me -
was there anything besides giving a dvar tora and/or exchanging family 
> commitments?

	It's the committment,  not the dvar Torah.
	
	written agreement to marry = Tenoyim
	oral agreement to marry =  vort (as in giving your word [vort])

Gershon

> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:11:18 +0200
> From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
> Subject: Child Raising Issues (was Re: Problem kids)

<< I think both of my older sons have learned most of the facts of life
through learning Mishnayos. (Unlike their school, I did not make them
skip the third perek of Brachos (or for that matter any other Mishnayos
they 
> encountered along the way)).>>

	I remember my father using this to explain the rule of "yavo'u tehorim
veya'asku betahara" for learning Vayikra first with children.  His point
was that when the child finds out what various averos mentioned in
Vayikra mean in a practical sense,  he has already assimilated the
Torah's issur on it.  

Gershon

It's one thing to learn and to continue to learn and surely we agree that every
Jew should (can you really be an OJ and not learn.) But for every young man who
wants to sit in a BM and be supported, that's an entirely different story. In
that regard RHM is on target.
Shabbat Shalom
steve
Joelirich@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/23/99 9:44:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:
>
> <<  Only the best and the brightest should be
>  encouraged to continue on the Torah only track and
>  only if they so desire.  This is where high standards
>  and Bechinos for Avreichim should be established.
>   >>
> We've disagreed on this before.  Why exactly is intellectual ability to be
> the determinant of continued tora only learning - is the mitzvah of talmud
> tora a function of our efforts or accomplishments?  Is your statement limited
> to those who the public should support and to those who will go on to teach
> or be gdolim?  Should those who fail out have to repay the public support?
>
> Kol Tuv,
> Joel Rich

In a message dated 12/24/99 3:38:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
katzco@sprintmail.com writes:

<< But for every young man who
 wants to sit in a BM and be supported, that's an entirely different story. In
 that regard RHM is on target.
 Shabbat Shalom
 steve >>
But why the "best and the brightest"? Again - what is the source  for this 
being the determinant for public support?

Kol Tuv and Shabbat Shalom,
Joel Rich

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Is one able to use a laser beam as an eruv?

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