Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 209

Thursday, December 23 1999

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:57:15 +0200
From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
Subject:
Re: Is Kollel for the Elite


On 22 Dec 99, at 14:31, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> << But, if we don't allow Yungerleit and their wives to learn about
> computers (even 
> > Bein HaZmanim in the case of the Yungerleit) and we do things like 
> > try to put the net in cherem, we will never enable those who need a 
> > parnassa to get one>>
> 
> 	My reaction as well to the recent call at the Agudah convention to do
> just this.  If you
> 	asser the Internet
> 	asser girls from working in offices (previous years),  only in chinuch
> 	pay peanuts to mechanchim/mechanchos (maybe because the parent base is
> kollel or mechanchim,  et cetera ad....)
> 
> 	How then do you insist that everyone "stay in learning"  forever and
> ever?  

Here if the Aguda issued such a call they would be put into cherem 
in many circles. 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.


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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:57:16 +0200
From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
Subject:
Re: Kollel and sustenance


On 22 Dec 99, at 21:11, Zeliglaw@aol.com wrote:

 RIETS has written 
> bchinos for its Kolleleit. This is the best method of accountability for 
> people who are somech al shulchan aviv. Do other yeshivos have this and if 
> not why not? 

Some do and some don't. But then, we all know people who don't 
test well and we all know people who test brilliantly without putting 
in the effort. 

I am more than happy to trust Roshei Yeshiva to make the 
determination of who should stay in Kollel and be supported, and 
who should support himself if he wants to stay. I am familiar with 
Kollelim in the States where that is done. In Israel, because of the 
social issues, I don't see it happening.

BTW - the web site posted by Janet Rosenbaum on here yesterday 
is an excellent read on this subject. I got through about 20 pages 
of it (it's 54 pages), and although I didn't "chap" all the technical 
economics (despite the MBA, my mind goes blank when I start 
seeing variable coefficients :-), it was really interesting. One thing 
the article harps on, which may help a lot of people understand the 
difference between Kollel in the US and in Israel, is that in the US 
there are a negligble number of avreichim over the age of 25. In 
Israel, a majority of the Charedi community is in Kollel at the age of 
40 - five years after most people already have a complete 
exemption from the draft (you get it at 35 and five kids or at 41). 
The article offers some theories as to why - I won't spill the beans 
by reciting them here.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.


Go to top.

Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:57:16 +0200
From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
Subject:
Re: state versus individual tzedakah


On 22 Dec 99, at 16:13, Joelirich@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/22/99 4:04:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> turkel@math.tau.ac.il writes:
> 
> << A state uses collective money and so has to justify its use of tax
>  money. >>
> Source? Would you differentiate between a Jewish King/State and others?

A Jewish king does not have to justify any expenditure.

Whether the Jewish state and the Jewish king have the same 
status is a separate issue. Most poskim today - even in DL circles -
 hold that the State does not have the halachic status of a King. 
One prominent exception - Rav Yisraeli zt"l - retracted a few 
months before he was niftar.

I once constructed an argument on why the State of Israel does not 
have the status of Melech based on the Rambam in Hilchos 
Melachim. It's on our old 486 at home, and if anyone is interested 
(it was done in private correspondence resulting from a post on 
mljewish) I can try to dig it out.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.


Go to top.

Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 06:06:59 -0500
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Subject:
Re: visitation right (wing)


On Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:03:39 +0200 "Carl and Adina Sherer"
<sherer@actcom.co.il> writes:

<<Of course you could never have kids in so many different Yeshivas 
> here either, as you may recall from a post I did a couple months 
> ago.>>

	No I don't remember.  But the number of schools doesn't work out to more
than about two per. This includes KG to Bais Medrash/Seminary,  so it
isn't like I move them around every zman.

Gershon


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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 06:14:55 -0500
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Subject:
Re: Net Access


<<> There are "net minder" programs that will at least keep them out of 
> pornographic sites. Netscape has one - I think it's called "Net 
> Nanny." If you do their Smart Update and go through all of the 
> choices, I think it is one of the choices you will be offered. Not 
> foolproof, I am sure but better than nothing.>>

	As mentioned, I am concerned at how fool proof they are;  I am also
concerned about time wasting.
> 
<< Don't you need an ISP in the US? How do you dial in if you do not 
> have an account? If you need an account, wouldn't you also need a 
> password (that you can keep from your kids)?>>

	Madison Avenue marches on.  This was true when you paid for service, now
advertising pays for it.  Three providers that I know of,  probably more
to follow,  offer access for free in exchange for your being a captive
audience for their advertising.  This changes the rules:  if you don't
have to pay for access,  what's to stop a savvy kid from setting him/her
self up?  
 
<< Our kids have no idea how to log into the net. The oldest (16-year 
> old girl) has email through hotmail, but we do not allow her on it 
> unless we are home. >>

	My kids have email through Juno, which is a free email only service. 
Was.  Their paid ISP service,  which they offered as an add-on to the
email,  just became free.  They don't know it yet,  but I have no
illusions.  Hence my question.

Gershon


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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 06:32:15 -0600 (CST)
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
Subject:
Re: Net Access


: 	It has been relatively easy for the last few years to keep the kids off
: the net unless you let them on, by simply keeping the password to
: yourself and logging them on when and as you see fit.

I put the family PC in my bedroom. They can't get on without our knowledge, and
they know that I'm at least yotzei vinichnas.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 23-Dec-99: Chamishi, Vayechi
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 88a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         


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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:34:04 +0200
From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
Subject:
Re: visitation right (wing)


On 23 Dec 99, at 6:06, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> On Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:03:39 +0200 "Carl and Adina Sherer"
> <sherer@actcom.co.il> writes:
> 
> <<Of course you could never have kids in so many different Yeshivas 
> > here either, as you may recall from a post I did a couple months 
> > ago.>>
> 
> 	No I don't remember.  But the number of schools doesn't work out to more
> than about two per. This includes KG to Bais Medrash/Seminary,  so it
> isn't like I move them around every zman.

I was referring to the idea that you sent each child to a different 
school that is (was?) presumably appropriate for him/her. This is 
difficult to do in Israel. If one child is in a school stream, you are 
expected to send all of your children to that school stream (or to its 
opposite sex counterpart). The flip side is that once one of your 
children is accepted to a school, they will generally accept the rest 
of them.

I will bounce you my post about the divisions in Israel (which is 
why the schools are the way they are) under separate cover so as 
not to repeat it for the whole list.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.


Go to top.

Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 06:40:54 -0600 (CST)
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
Subject:
Re: Net Access


: The simple answer: you need a firewall. Norton sells one as part of their
: internet utility package.

I don't think "firewall" is the right term, as that has to do with routers,
and controlling network traffic. For example, my firm installed a firewall
to present any incoming connections of any sort except web, email and ftp
access to a particular gateway machine.

I think you're talking about filters, and the original poster said he didn't
think they were sufficient.

They certainly do nothing toward eliminating bitul z'man.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 23-Dec-99: Chamishi, Vayechi
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 88a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         


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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:18:27 +0200
From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada@zahav.net.il>
Subject:
Problem kids


I'm putting on a layer of Aloe vera -- it's safer, healthier
and doesn't have the cancer-related side effects of an
asbestos suit <g>.

That said,

Do you believe your kid when he says he is going to friend
X?  Does he go off to a nearby magazine shop for a peak at a
playboy?  Anyone remember the scene in Haim Potok's "The
Chosen" where the Chasidische kid goes to the public
library?

This is the same kind of question.  There is no "good"
answer.  A friend of mine owns a book store somewhere in
Israel, he has various magazines, and despite putting them
where people should feel funny picking them up -- he has
told me that there are still men in Ultra
Orthodox/Chassidische dress who pick them up and go to the
back of the store.  We don't live in a closed society, and I
truly don't think that by hiding things we are immunizing
our kids.

When the subject of AIDS first came up, most of the
discussions were about HOS.  All kids in Israel could walk
down any street and see bus signs advertising "safety"
devices (Ve'Hameivine Yavine).  There was a limit to how
long I could continue to ignore the issue.  Luckily, someone
in the states put together a film about a child who had
hemophilia and his story after he contracted AIDS.  So I sat
down with my kids (Bat Mitzvah age at the time), we saw the
movie and discussed the issues that bothered them.  So the
TV (which many demonize) was for once an excellent
educational device which was of great assistance.

Besides Avodah, I use the Net as an excellent reference
library for my various projects.

I know this doesn't answer your question -- but it's the
best I can do.  Maybe someone else can help.

Shoshana

----- Original Message ----- >
 I am not looking for Koshernet style programs;  even if
every site they
> go to is glatt kosher,  I'd rather they not be on when I
am not aware of
> it.  This is both because of the fallibility of filters
and pure time
> wasting.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Gershon
> PS....Now, where is that asbestos suit?


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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:18:01 EST
From: Joelirich@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Controlling the Net and Charedi Aliya (was Re: Is Kollel for the Elite)


In a message dated 12/23/99 6:02:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:

<< 
 Shlomo, you and I are both here and we both see that. But people 
 who are not here and who are what I like to refer to as "American 
 Charedim" feel that they won't fit in here socially - whether because 
 of their secular education levels or their jobs or their incomes or 
 what things they are willing to discuss with their kids or many, 
 many other ways in which Israeli Charedi society is very different 
 from American Charedi society. 
  >>
Interestingly, this point is supported in the recent study referred to by 
Janet Rosenberg - the average Israeli charedi in Yeshiva stays untill age 40 
(or 45 - I don't have the paper here) while the chutznik charedi is out by 25 
or so.  The paper posits societal(and alternative option) reasons for the 
difference(not more intense religious beliefs)

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich


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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:22:39 EST
From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Subject:
re: Net Access


<<< Don't you need an ISP in the US? How do you dial in if you do not
have an account? >>>

There are many ISP's now who offer free service, in exchange for a
portion of the screen which constantly shows various advertising. Some
even track exactly which sites you go to, and that is very valuable to
them, which pays for the free service. The way to get these services is
by using someone else's PC to download their software, which you then
install on your own machine.

Here are some ideas for policing the children:

Depending on how your system is set up, there is probably a folder of
Temporary Files which gets filled up while they are on line. Even if they
don't deliberately save any files, they still get loaded into these
temporary work area to make them easier to display on screen. Check the
dates of those files to see when they we online, and many of those files
can be viewed for content as well.

That idea will only help after the fact. To prevent them from getting on
in the first place, consider renaming some critical file to render it
unusable. This could be your main internet program if the kids are not
too savvy; eg., rename "aol.exe" to be "aolx.exe", and the PC will think
that it got deleted. If the kids will figure that out, play the same
trick on something deeper, like the modem driver file, and they'll think
the computer needs to be brought in for servicing.

Akiva Miller

___________________________________________________________________
Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.


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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 06:17:01 -0500
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Subject:
Re: Is Kollel for the Elite


On Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:57:15 +0200 "Carl M. Sherer"
<cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> writes:

<< Here if the Aguda issued such a call they would be put into cherem in
many circles. >>

	Pardon my ignorance,  but by whom for what?

Gershon


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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:42:33 EST
From: Joelirich@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Kippot in the US Army


In a message dated 12/22/99 11:56:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
kennethgmiller@juno.com writes:

<< 
 Many people have risked much in order to defend their ability to keep
 their head covered. I'm not saying they are wrong for doing so, but I
 wonder if some of them are misinformed as to the true importance of this
 practice. Or maybe *I* am the misinformed one. Any comments?
 
 Akiva Miller >>
micro - you're basically correct, macro - at least in the eyes of the outside 
world kippa has taken the place of tzitzit in identifying one as an oved 
hashem.  How do you put a $ price on that?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich


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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:45:17 -0500
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Subject:
Re: visitation right (wing)


<<I was referring to the idea that you sent each child to a different 
> school that is (was?) presumably appropriate for him/her. This is 
> difficult to do in Israel. If one child is in a school stream, you 
> are expected to send all of your children to that school stream (or to 
> its opposite sex counterpart). The flip side is that once one of your 
> children is accepted to a school, they will generally accept the 
> rest of them.>>

	Leaving the definition of school stream (wide) open,  the schools I sent
to were basically in the same stream but in different flavors.  I am not
sure if even this exists in Israel.

Gershon


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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:24:20 +0200
From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject:
Re: : TOAYVAH=UNNATURAL or CONTEMPTABLE


> Natural means appearing in nature.  Homosexuality can be
> said to be "natural" inasmuch as it is a form of
> human sexuality that appears in nature

FWIW  many birds are known to exhibit this behaviour IN CAPTIVITY-  when
they're in full breeding condition but birds of the other gender are absent.
The drives are perverted because of unusual environmental conditions.  In
the wild-  I don't know, but I've heard that it does occur in parts of
California-  don't know how well documented that  was. "Hishchis kol basar"
re the mabul comes to mind.  Mrs. GA


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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:46:33 +0200
From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject:
Re: Beth Din


Subject: re: Beth Din


> R' Daniel Schwartz wrote <<< The Beth Din, it seems, doctored the
> contracts to confer it with authority to arbitrate visitation...  In
> short, the Beth Din falsified documents, and there is eyewitness
> testimony that the documents produced in court are not those signed by my
> client. >>>
>
> Why is no one willing to name names? Who are these people?
>
If we check out the halachos of loshon hara leto'eles in the Chafetz Chaim
we'll see that we're first obligated to be sure an avera has really been
done and to speak directly to the offenders.  If we suspect a Beis Din of
tampering with documents we have to go directly to the Rebbeim in that Beis
Din- preferably take along another Rav not connected with the case- (or his
hascama), and find out exactly what was done and why.
If it's still clearly not kosher and those Rebbeim don't want to listen,
then we may have an obligation to publish their names-  loshon hara
le'toeles.  We should also be sure we are free of any unworthy emotions and
agendas.   Mrs. G. Atwood.


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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:20:14 +0200
From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject:
Re: Problem children, Alcohol, and Depression


>
> I personally believe that much of what we are calling
> problem children, especially those who come from good
> homes, are really children with undiagnosed clinical
> depressions masquerading as rebelliousness.              HM

Rabbi Manis Friedman said something very similar to the English N'shei
Chabad in Jerusalem during Chanukah. The child is UNHAPPY-  he's acting out
negatively.  There may be many reasons including  emotional neglect,  grief,
shalom bayis problems, contradictory messages at home and school, hormone
problems,  and also possibly neurotransmittor problems as you said.  The
parents have to get to the root of the problem, sometimes with professional
assistance.    Mrs. G. Atwood
>


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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:32:18 +0200
From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject:
Re: problem kids


> This leads to newer and "better" schools for the
> precious darlings so they won't be tainted. What's to
> be done with these poor wretched children?  They are
> treated like Kiruv projects at best and at worst,
> written off.  The result? The RW is ever moving to the
> right only to reject the old less frum school which
> was perfectly frum last year before the new school was
> created.

This happened in our neighbourhood. We davka kept our girls in the original
Beis Yaakov.  Rav Scheinberg actually sent a letter to support for our
school.  My daughters benefit from the diversity in their classes. The
majority of  Sephardi/native Israeli girls help their fluency as well as
enhance their understanding of culture differences- even differences in
observance in some cases. This does not mean that our girls should lower
their standards-  I make it clear to them at home what our standards are.
The new "purer" school has mainly girls from English speaking families, has
become a bit of a monoculture and is in danger of producing snobbish
attitudes.   Mrs. GA


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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:45:55 +0200
From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject:
Re: a humble pixel


===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
Are we only pixels in G-d's imagination?
>
> The great deal of knowledge we b"h have access to combine with our
G-d-given
> ability to absorb information to give us a feeling of superiority which we
> should keep in perspective of what we can and are permitted to be
mechadesh
> over those who came before us.
>>
> Yaakov Schachter

I hear your point,  and apologize if the sign off seems to be flippant and
belittling.  It was not intended that way.  In terms of the idea of
"imagination"-  this concept was derived from the Tanya.  We are created and
totally encompassed in the machshava- the "thought" of G-d. We're also made
in G-d's "image".  Hashem creates forms, entities- but all are actually part
of His emanation.  If we relate this to computer concepts we see the
association-   "pixel" is a unit of the perceived tapestry of creation, but
you're right, this may well be too small a concept to define man-  a much
more
important kind of creation & emanation which has real effect on other
aspects of creation.
If this signature is presumptuous and offensive to avodah members, I will
omit it. MGA.
btw  re the post "GA's idea of G-d"-   I don't think we would ever have a
problem aggrandizing G-d too much! Perhaps it should have been titled "GA's
idea of man" <g>


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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:11:18 +0200
From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
Subject:
Child Raising Issues (was Re: Problem kids)


On 23 Dec 99, at 15:18, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:

> Do you believe your kid when he says he is going to friend
> X?  Does he go off to a nearby magazine shop for a peak at a
> playboy?  Anyone remember the scene in Haim Potok's "The
> Chosen" where the Chasidische kid goes to the public
> library?
> 
> This is the same kind of question.  There is no "good"
> answer.  A friend of mine owns a book store somewhere in
> Israel, he has various magazines, and despite putting them
> where people should feel funny picking them up -- he has
> told me that there are still men in Ultra
> Orthodox/Chassidische dress who pick them up and go to the
> back of the store.  We don't live in a closed society, and I
> truly don't think that by hiding things we are immunizing
> our kids.

I have heard third hand a similar story from someone who owns a 
video store.

That said, I think there's a difference between your kids coming and 
asking you about it, your kids seeing it on the street (where it is 
often unavoidable), and having your kids surf the net and LOOK for 
it or stumble over it accidentally. 

If a child comes and asks you about it, then I think you have to 
answer honestly on the child's level. Treating it in a matter of fact 
manner takes a lot of the mystery out of it. I think both of my older 
sons have learned most of the facts of life through learning 
Mishnayos. (Unlike their school, I did not make them skip the third 
perek of Brachos (or for that matter any other Mishnayos they 
encountered along the way)). 

I don't think it's possible to prevent your child from seeing or 
hearing every inappropriate billboard, advertisement, etc. At some 
point, they are going to see or hear something that you did not 
want them to see or hear. (My personal pet peeve is the "clinica 
on" ads which run all day on the news radio here, vehameivin 
yavin). I'm not sure how much a young child notices, but if the child 
does notice, I think you can turn it around by pointing out that this 
is not the way a fruhm person is supposed to behave. And when 
they're older, if you have removed the mystery from it, they are 
more likely to react appropriately.

That does not mean I would let my kids surf the net in an 
unrestricted fashion. It's too easy to click on a link, even by 
accident, and find yourself in a place that could make a lasting 
immpression on an impressionable mind. That's an impression that 
would be very difficult to erase, and the net tends to be much more 
explicit than what you see in the streets. I have seen many links 
that are misleading and worse....

That is NOT because I don't trust my kids. I trust my kids until they 
prove to me that they're not worthy of that trust. That doesn't mean 
I have to be an accomplice in letting them get into situations where 
their judgment will be tested. We have this argument with our 
eldest (16) regularly, and she has come to accept that until she is 
old enough to live on her own, there are some decisions that we 
are going to make for her. She has even thanked us for some of the 
decisions we have made for her. YMMV.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.


Go to top.

Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:11:18 +0200
From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
Subject:
re: Net Access


On 23 Dec 99, at 8:22, Kenneth G Miller wrote:

> Here are some ideas for policing the children:
> 
> Depending on how your system is set up, there is probably a folder of
> Temporary Files which gets filled up while they are on line. Even if they
> don't deliberately save any files, they still get loaded into these
> temporary work area to make them easier to display on screen. Check the
> dates of those files to see when they we online, and many of those files
> can be viewed for content as well.

I think you can do the same thing using the history function in 
Netscape (it's under tools).

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.


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