Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 206

Wednesday, December 22 1999

• Re[2]: Military Halacha
• Re:Not a proof--why not?
• Re[2]: Not a proof---Why not?
• Re[2]: Not a proof---Why not?
• Re: Military Halacha
• Re: problem kids
• Re: problem kids
• Re: problem kids
• Re: Minors and kiddush wine
• Re: Millenium
• Re: Millenium
• a humble pixel
• Re: a humble pixel
• Re: Millenium
• Re: economist's view of charedim
• Is Kollel for the Elite
• Re: Re:BETH DIN
• Re: Military Halacha
• RE: a humble pixel
• Re: problem kids
• Re: Minors and kiddush wine
• Re: Military Halacha

When I took a seminar on chaplaincy this is what they said:

In general, if there only chaplain around is jewish, he is expected to ARRANGE 
but not to conduct services for other denominations.  EG, a Jewish chaplain 
would be responsible to arrange Catholic/Protestant services which could be 
actually  conducted by lay military personnel or non-chaplain clergy.

A combat situation is an extreme case and I'm not sure what the expectations of 
either the militray or of tthe halacho would provide.


Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
 <snip>

True. The military expects all chaplains of all faiths to serve anyone who 
needs it in dire circumstances. So let me pose another halachic question: May 
an Orthodox Jewish rabbi serving as a chaplain in combat comfort a dying 
Catholic soldier by holding his hand and reciting the last rites? May the 
Jewish chaplain carry those little sealed vials of "holy water" to hand out 
for the same purpose? Is this idolatory? Can the rabbi commit the "sin" and 
take whatever punishment HaShem might hand out later? This is real question 
based on a real incident in Vietnam. I'd be most interested in hearing what 
the Avodah participants think.

David Finch 

Rabbi Akiva Eger was not *mispalel* for the death of the mesarev.  He
merely warned him that the Mishna mentions two methods of "konah es
atzmah," get and death, and that if he did not avail himself of the
first, he was risking the second.
Elazar M. Teitz

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>>

Carl I have already explained. We are not praying eg because :"he got 
an aliyah and not me"---we are praying for agunoth. And under such 
circumstances I hold that our past deeds are not remembered. I even 
use Rabbi Akiva Egers story as a proof.

Again...I don't disagree with you that our deeds will be remembered 
if we pray against people. But that is only in ordinary matters. For 
loss of jobs or lack of gets there is no rememberance of our deeds 
since the other party has brazenly taken advantage of helpless people 
and violated a torah threat.

Cf The Koheleth Rabbah
	>And God will seek from the pursued
	>EVEN if the pursuer is righteous and the pursued in wicked!!

Think about it

Russell Hendel; http://www.shamash.org/rashi/ <<

to paste from shoshana B.:
"The first rule is to have proof."

imho:

It would be premature to pray for someone's death unless/until they have been 
heard by BD or at least an OBJECTIVE poseik.

Otherwise the opressed are assuming the role of BD, too.  

IOW it is NOT a function of how heinous is the crime, but of the need to convict
people justly no matter what the crime is.  Praying for someone's death sounds 
like a function of a personal vendetta (goiel hadam) and circumvents a systme of
justice.

Rich wolpoe

Agreed!

Kakosuv:
  Keil Nekomos Hashem
Davka hashem has the right to do nekomo

We ONLY have the right to use DIN, and din requires a fair hearing first.

Rich Wolpoeo


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

That's for Hashem to determine, not for us.

-- Carl

RD Finch wrote:

>>So let me pose another halachic question: May an Orthodox Jewish rabbi 
serving as a chaplain in combat comfort a dying Catholic soldier by holding 
his hand and reciting the last rites? May the Jewish chaplain carry those 
little sealed vials of "holy water" to hand out for the same purpose? Is 
this idolatory? Can the rabbi commit the "sin" and take whatever punishment 
HaShem might hand out later? This is real question based on a real incident 
in Vietnam. I'd be most interested in hearing what the Avodah participants 
think.>>


I am not a rabbi and certainly not a posek.  However, IMHO this would be AT 
BEST lifnei iveir for avodah zarah and is a machlokes rishonim whether it 
is just assur de'oraisa or yehareg ve'al ya'avor.  Performing the last 
rites is actual avodah zarah but carrying the vials to hand out is probably 
"only" lifnei iveir.

There has been a discussion off-line about whether or not Xianity is avodah 
zarah.  Anyone who wants mareh mekomos can e-mail me privately.

RH Maryles wrote:

>>This leads to newer and "better" schools for the precious darlings so 
they won't be tainted.>>

I will be visited this week or next by an interviewer in my home who will 
"check out" my family and home (and presumably my car in the driveway) and 
require me to sign an agreement that I do not and will never own a TV.  I 
don't know how much crazier this can get.

As an aside, is it geneivas da'as to hide some of my more risque sefarim 
like Moreh Nevuchim and Or Hashem?

On 22 Dec 99, at 9:24, gil.student@citicorp.com wrote:

> I will be visited this week or next by an interviewer in my home who will 
> "check out" my family and home (and presumably my car in the driveway) and 
> require me to sign an agreement that I do not and will never own a TV.  I 
> don't know how much crazier this can get.

This is interesting. AFAIK in Yerushalayim (at least) they only ask 
about this stuff - they don't actually come and visit you. Is this 
common in the States?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

RCM Sherer wrote:
     
>>This is interesting. AFAIK in Yerushalayim (at least) they only ask 
about this stuff - they don't actually come and visit you. Is this 
common in the States?>>

It isn't common - yet.  Once one yeshivah does it then all new yeshivahs 
have to.

On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 07:53:27PM -0500, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
> This sounds pretty suspicious to me. I'm not aware of any X-tian 
> denominations in which the use of alcohol is a "big no-no." 

it's actually most of them, particularly protestant.  the stricter ones
don't drink at all.  i live in massachusetts where they don't sell alcohol 
on sundays because they say alcohol is a sinful thing and should not be 
allowed to taint sunday.  i grew up in the home of the women's xtian 
temperance union (the big force behind prohibition) and even many decades 
after prohibition, alcohol was not sold within city limits --- we had to go 
to skokie or chicago for it until about 15 years ago.  even now, they
don't sell it in grocery stores, unlike here in massachusetts where
there's wine next to the onions.  i'm told that in states like minnesota 
(where everyone's lutheran/scandinavian) there's almost no alcohol anywhere.

janet

In a message dated 12/21/99 6:36:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
nwitty@ix.netcom.com writes:

<< I suspected same.  I feared that suggesting an alternate authorship would
 take the edge off of the truth that lays in the words.  Sometimes we suffer
 from refusing to hear truth from those closer to us, but if it originates
 from an unexpected source we/some are more inclined to lend an ear.  I
 posted this because some here and elsewhere had beguun some of the "most
 important <fill in the blank> of the millenium," and in the Jewish education
 context no less. >>

I agree very strongly with Noach's observation about the sensitivity we 
should have to millenium oriented trivia, inasmuch as the Millenium has no 
special import from a Torah perspective. 
I made the observation about the Moynihan - Luchins connection in part as 
praise for Moynihan, who instinctively follows the approach to issues facing 
our community of someone who is a Ben Torah. Dr.  Luchins just also happens 
to have a particular style which is easily identifiable, as any old NCSY 
hands will be glad to confirm.

Jordan  

On 22 Dec 99, at 11:57, TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:

 Dr.  Luchins just also happens 
> to have a particular style which is easily identifiable, as any old NCSY 
> hands will be glad to confirm.

With apologies to Moshe....

Ah, Jordan. You are a sensitive young man with a burning desire to 
spread Torah all over the world. A Torah-true human being. You 
have fought mightily to make Shawnee Mission, Kansas a 
wellspring of Torah :-) 

-- Carl (may well have been an NCSY'er before you were born :-) 


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Gila Atwood's sign-off asserts that "We are pixels in G-d's imagination."

Noah Witty comments:
". . . it seems to me to be aggrandizing G-d by gratuitously belittling
people.  Concurrently and likely more significantly from an emunah and
theological perspective, I am not sure what it means for G-d to have
"imagination". . ."


Firstly, I am deeply greatful to the Atwoods for what is obviously a great
deal of time, effort, and thought spent in sharing so much of their
knowledge and ideas with all of us. I certainly have learned no small amount
form them, and have been provoked and stimulated into areas of hisbonnenus
that I would not have approached, due to the material they've contributed.

But I see a serious problem with the sign-off. I've been taught that very
little of what we see our forefathers (and foreteachers?) do is proper for
us to do; or "Im heim ke'bnei-adam . . ."

The Torah and many places in Neviim contain human-like references to Hashem
ki'vyachol (a word which should be used even if we were capable of saying
such things). We are told by our teachers what is meant by "the Hand of
G-d", "G-d said", even "G-d intended" and "the Will of G-d". But we are also
told that these ideas would be forbidden to us if they weren't written by
the Word of Hashem. Where do we find anywhere after the Neviim a new
attribution of a human quality to the Almighty?

The great deal of knowledge we b"h have access to combine with our G-d-given
ability to absorb information to give us a feeling of superiority which we
should keep in perspective of what we can and are permitted to be mechadesh
over those who came before us.


Yaakov Schachter

In a message dated 12/22/99 1:11:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
schachte@netvision.net.il writes:

<< Gila Atwood's sign-off asserts that "We are pixels in G-d's imagination."
  >>

I think that this sign off is completely frum.  We all know that Hashem is 
michadesh btuvo  bchol yom tamid maaseh breishit and that if he stopped 
concentrating/imagining/mashgiaching... for one second , the whole world 
(including us) would return to tohu vavohu. In todays terms then we are 
pixels(however humble) in hashem's imagination.

``````````````
The great deal of knowledge we b"h have access to combine with our G-d-given
ability to absorb information to give us a feeling of superiority which we
should keep in perspective of what we can and are permitted to be mechadesh
over those who came before us.


Yaakov Schachter
`````````````````
The Rav (JB Soloveitchik) taught that we were commanded to be mechadesh as a 
form of imitato dei.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich 

<< In a message dated 12/21/99 6:36:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
 nwitty@ix.netcom.com writes:
 
 << I suspected same.  I feared that suggesting an alternate authorship would
  take the edge off of the truth that lays in the words.  Sometimes we suffer
  from refusing to hear truth from those closer to us, but if it originates
  from an unexpected source we/some are more inclined to lend an ear.  I
  posted this because some here and elsewhere had beguun some of the "most
  important <fill in the blank> of the millenium," and in the Jewish education
  context no less. >>
  >>

Why not harness the interest in retrospection , no matter what the source , 
and use it for positive ends , rather than pretend it doesn't exist? 

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

In a message dated 12/21/99 3:51:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jerosenb@hcs.harvard.edu writes:

<< 
 I just ran across a pre-publication version of an economic analysis of 
 full-time learning in Israel which will be published in the Quarterly
 Journal of Economics (one of the major journals):
 http://econ.bu.edu/eli/papers/snsa2.pdf
 
 I don't know anything about the author and actually only read the first
 several pages, so all I can do is pass along the paper without comment.  
 
 Janet
  >>
This is a fascinating read - you'll need adobe acrobat to download it.  

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

From: "Shlomo Godick" <shlomog@mehish.co.il>
> Subject: Re: Is Kollel for the Elite	 (was Re: state's  obligation to 
> the poor)		
> 
<< Carl,

 Most of what you write I agree with. >>

	I know that our esteemed listowner will look askance at "haskomos" but I
too,  as one who just defended the kolel system (in the abstract,  not as
presently constituted) on a different list,  I would like to add mine.

<<Carl wrote:

<< But, if we don't allow Yungerleit and their wives to learn about
computers (even 
> Bein HaZmanim in the case of the Yungerleit) and we do things like 
> try to put the net in cherem, we will never enable those who need a 
> parnassa to get one>>

	My reaction as well to the recent call at the Agudah convention to do
just this.  If you
	asser the Internet
	asser girls from working in offices (previous years),  only in chinuch
	pay peanuts to mechanchim/mechanchos (maybe because the parent base is
kollel or mechanchim,  et cetera ad....)

	How then do you insist that everyone "stay in learning"  forever and
ever?  

<< for those who are wondering what I am talking about :-). If they come
out of the army and become Charedi baalebatim who support  the Yeshivos
but are seen by the chilonim as contributing to  society, I think it will
take a lot of pressure off the rest of 
> Charedi  society - both financially (in the long run) and in terms of
the army (almost immediately).>>

	It might also encourage some chutznikim who would like to make aliya but
don't see their way in current Israeli Chareidi society,  nor outside of
it.

Gershon

I know it has happened in the past.  This is my first case dealing with it
as a litigator.  But I have heard about it all too many times.  Proof is
hard to come by as the victims of Beth Din treachery are afraid to go
public.
----- Original Message -----
From: Shoshana L. Boublil <toramada@zahav.net.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 1:54 AM
Subject: Re:BETH DIN


> It isn't _Beit Din_ which is suspect.  What is possible, unfortunately, is
> that there are people who are suspect.
>
> If this has truly happened once -- then it probably isn't the first time,
> and you can make an effort to find other people who have suffered this or
> similar problems from these people, and if you have proof, you can present
> it at a reliable Beith Din -- and there are many such out there, and make
> the issue public.
>
> The first rule is to have proof.
>
> Shoshana L. Boublil
> ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:23:36 -0500
> > From: "Daniel B. Schwartz" <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> > Subject: BETH DIN
> [treachery details deleted]
>
>
>

Just a thought.  In a battle situation when a rabbi is called to give
comfort to a dying non-Jewish soldier and is asked to administer the last
rites, does compassion for the dying soldier play a role?  Is not the horror
of battle enough a "sha'a't had'chak" to carve out a leniency?  I doubt
anyone really believes that a rabbi performing a non-Jewish ritual has any
real meaning (from a point of view of the other religion in question); all
it does is comfort someone dying in the most austere and frightening of
circumstances.  I think anyone would be hard-pressed to deny anyone that
level of peace.  I am not a rabbi; if I were one however, I know that my
conscience would require me to give that comfort.

----- Original Message -----
From: <gil.student@citicorp.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>; <DFinchPC@aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: Military Halacha


> RD Finch wrote:
>
> >>So let me pose another halachic question: May an Orthodox Jewish rabbi
> serving as a chaplain in combat comfort a dying Catholic soldier by
holding
> his hand and reciting the last rites? May the Jewish chaplain carry those
> little sealed vials of "holy water" to hand out for the same purpose? Is
> this idolatory? Can the rabbi commit the "sin" and take whatever
punishment
> HaShem might hand out later? This is real question based on a real
incident
> in Vietnam. I'd be most interested in hearing what the Avodah participants
> think.>>
>
>
> I am not a rabbi and certainly not a posek.  However, IMHO this would be
AT
> BEST lifnei iveir for avodah zarah and is a machlokes rishonim whether it
> is just assur de'oraisa or yehareg ve'al ya'avor.  Performing the last
> rites is actual avodah zarah but carrying the vials to hand out is
probably
> "only" lifnei iveir.
>
> There has been a discussion off-line about whether or not Xianity is
avodah
> zarah.  Anyone who wants mareh mekomos can e-mail me privately.
>
>

Both Noah and Yaakov questiont the use of "imagination" in Gila's Sig.

"Imagination" is *not* the same as "fantasize".

From the Oxford American Dictionary:

IMAGINE: to form a mental image of; to picture in one's mind;
IMAGINATION:  the ability to imagine creatively or to use this ability in a
practical way;

So if I picture an object in my mind, and then create it -- I have used my
imagination.

And we know that HaShem is constantly renewing/creating the world.

> the Word of Hashem. Where do we find anywhere after the Neviim a new
> attribution of a human quality to the Almighty?

Why is "imagine" a new attribute?

The RamChal in Ma'amar Ha'Ikkarim talks about the need to use human terms to
describe God (see the last paragraph of the first chapter). He does *not*
assur it.

==

Furthermore, Noah complains about "gratuitously belittling people" by
comparing them to pixels.

A pixel is the smallest dot on your computer screen -- either Red, Green, or
Blue, each color being one of 256 different values, from 0 (off) to 255
(full brightness). Through the combination of these pixels, beautiful,
complex scenes can be generated. Remove the pixels and you have a black
screen.

In the same way, each of us (either physically or the Divine Spark within
each of us) is a small "dot" in creation -- but through our combining and
interacting with people and things (other dots) we create the complex and
beautiful world we live in. Zoom in to the screen and the pixels appear
larger. Remove us, and the screen is black.

(There is a Yiddish expression "Pinteleh Yid -- the Jewish Dot/Spot.)


> But I see a serious problem with the sign-off. I've been
> taught that very
> little of what we see our forefathers (and foreteachers?) do
> is proper for us to do; or "Im heim ke'bnei-adam . . ."

So we shouldn't do Hachnassas Orchim? After all, Avraham did it, so...

Seriously -- if this is so, that what do we learn (what *can* we learn) from
the Avos HaKadoshim?

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

In a message dated 12/22/99 8:24:55 AM US Central Standard Time, 
gil.student@citicorp.com writes:

<< As an aside, is it geneivas da'as to hide some of my more risque sefarim 
 like Moreh Nevuchim and Or Hashem?
  >>

Just display Rosenzweig's "Star of Redemption," and take bets on the result.

David Finch

In a message dated 12/22/99 9:26:40 AM US Central Standard Time, 
jerosenb@hcs.harvard.edu writes:

<< i live in massachusetts where they don't sell alcohol 
 on sundays because they say alcohol is a sinful thing and should not be 
 allowed to taint sunday.

 i'm told that in states like minnesota 
(where everyone's lutheran/scandinavian) there's almost no alcohol anywhere.
 >>

You're right, up to a point. I forgot about the old New England Presbyterian 
attitude toward liquor. Chicago is overwhelmingly X-tian, but mostly 
down-home black Baptist, Irish Catholic, Eastern European Catholic, etc. 
There are old-time WASPs left in Chicago, maybe six of them. Thus in Chicago 
booze has never been known as a sinful thing.

As for Minnesota, I've played hockey up there. They don't allow beer on the 
rink. The stands, dressing rooms, corridors, concession stands, parking lots 
-- that's another matter. You really wouldn't want to pass up a chance to 
make a decent offer for the Budweiser franchise up there.

David Finch

In a message dated 12/22/99 1:36:38 PM US Central Standard Time, 
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:

<< ust a thought.  In a battle situation when a rabbi is called to give
 comfort to a dying non-Jewish soldier and is asked to administer the last
 rites, does compassion for the dying soldier play a role?  Is not the horror
 of battle enough a "sha'a't had'chak" to carve out a leniency?  I doubt
 anyone really believes that a rabbi performing a non-Jewish ritual has any
 real meaning (from a point of view of the other religion in question); all
 it does is comfort someone dying in the most austere and frightening of
 circumstances.  I think anyone would be hard-pressed to deny anyone that
 level of peace.  I am not a rabbi; if I were one however, I know that my
 conscience would require me to give that comfort. >>

I agree. At least I think I do. Several very thoughful Torah scholars have 
told me that perhaps Orthodox rabbis should decline service as chaplains 
during wartime lest they be forced into such a predicament. Several Jewish 
chaplains served with Army troops in combat during Vietnam; I understand that 
at least one Jewish Navy chaplain ministered to Marines of all faiths during 
a particularly gruesome series of battles during the Tet Offensive. A rabbi 
was, and I think still is, the senior U.S. armed forces chaplain during in 
the Bosnia peacekeeping affair. So the issue is a live one.

David Finch

*********************


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