Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 205

Wednesday, December 22 1999

• Re: meaning of to'evah
• Gila Atwood's idea of G-d
• Re: Not a proof---Why not?
• Is Kollel for the Elite (was Re: state's obligation to the poor)
• Re: Kippot in the US Army
• (Fwd) NEW SUPER-INDEX TO MISHNA BERURA
• Re: Kippot in the US Army
• Re:BETH DIN
• re: : TOAYVAH=UNNATURAL or CONTEMPTABLE
• Re: Is Kollel for the Elite (was Re: state's obligation to the poor)
• Re: Is Kollel for the Elite (was Re: state's obligation to the poor)
• Re[2]: state's obligation to the poor

>
> Melech writes
>
> Russel Hendel suggests that toevah means unnatural.  That is clearly
> incorrect, as is abundantly evident from many psukim, in which the root
means "contemptible" or "to hold as contemptible".

Russel writes
> I think
> >comtemptable because of unnaturalness
> is a fair translation.
>
> I may be wrong but I am not "clearly wrong". The posookim
>
> (In passing....How would YOU (Melech) explain the fact that
> the Bible calls
> >homosexuality a toayvah
> >does not call adultery a toayvah

Melech responds

Sorry, Russel, but unnaturalness is "clearly" wrong.  Proof psukim are such
as
"Lo sesa'ev Edomi",  "Ki soavas Mitzrayim kol ro'eh tzon",  "Lo sizbach
laShem...
shor voseh asher yihyeh bo mum...ki soavas...",etc. Secondly, the Torah does
call adultery a to'evah - see, for example, the concluding posuk in Acharei
Mos after
the arayos "V'lo sa'asu mikol hatoevos ho'aleh" and the following psukim.

Melech

M. Press, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology, Touro College
mpress@ix.netcom.com or melechp@touro.edu

Gila Atwood's sign-off asserts that "We are pixels in G-d's imagination."

My question is whether this is actually true in some respect or whether this
is (at the polar opposite) gidduf or some aspect of gidduf?  Or is it
somewhere in between?  (To those of you who think I'm over-reacting, allow
me the overstatement to at least get your attention and get you to think
about the topic!) I'm actually not quite sure what the point of her
assertion is, but it seems to me to be aggrandizing God by gratuitously
belittling people.  Concurrently and likely more significantly from an
emunah and theological perspective, I am not sure what it means for God to
have "imagination."  Since there are other vaguenesses and/or ambiguities in
the assertion and since the assertion appears regularly before our eyes, I
thought to bring out the topic for some discussion insofar as it relates to
our individual obligations concerning belief ("chovot halevavot") and
anywhere else the discussion may lead us.

Respectfully,
Noach Witty

On 22 Dec 99, at 0:50, Russell J Hendel wrote:

> Carl writes to my question as follows
> 
> On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:35:53 +0200 "Carl M. Sherer"
> <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> writes:
> > On 20 Dec 99, at 22:31, Russell J Hendel wrote:
> > 
> > > Could Sender kindly tell me why the attached is not a proof?
> > 
> > Because we ordinary people are not on the madreiga of R. Akiva 
> > Eiger, and when we daven for our enemies to suffer or die, and 
> > HKB"H looks at our maasim, most of us will fail R"L.
> > 
> > -- Carl
> > 
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:38:07 -0500
> > > From: "Allen Baruch" <Abaruch@SINAI-BALT.COM>
> > > Subject: RE: Davenning re the wicked
> > > 
> > > While I don't believe this is a raayoh to anything, they do tell 
> > > a story about (pretty sure it was) R' Akiva Eiger where he 
> > reminded 
> > > a man who refused to give his wife a get that the mishna says 
> > > "v'koneh as atzmah b'get uv'missas haball". The man still rudely 
> > > refused and when he left the building , fell down the stairs and 
> > died.
> > > 
> > > kol tuv
> > > Sender Baruch
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Carl I have already explained. We are not praying eg because :"he got 
> an aliyah and not me"---we are praying for agunoth. And under such
> circumstances I hold that our past deeds are not remembered. 

On what basis do you determine when someone's aveira is chamur 
enough to allow us to daven for his death. On what basis do you 
determine that it's okay to daven for the death of someone who 
leaves his wife an aguna, but not for the death of someone who is 
over on arayos, shfichus damim or for that matter gezel? 

I even
> use Rabbi Akiva Egers story as a proof.

We are not on the madreiga of R. Akiva Eiger (at least I know that I 
am not). I think that what R. Akiva Eiger's story proves is either (i) 
R. Akiva Eiger was on such a madreiga that even when Hashem 
was medayek in his maasim, he still did not deserve to die or (ii) 
that what he said was not a tfilla but some sort of revelation of 
ruach hakodesh.

> Again...I don't disagree with you that our deeds will be remembered
> if we pray against people. But that is only in ordinary matters. For
> loss of jobs or lack of gets there is no rememberance of our deeds
> since the other party has brazenly taken advantage of helpless people
> and violated a torah threat.

Why loss of jobs? Why not (since you don't mention them, I 
assume you don't count them) cheating on one's spouse, drunken 
driving that results in the death of another, or stealing from tzedaka 
pushkes? What is your basis for determining when we can daven 
for someone's death and when we can't?

> Cf The Koheleth Rabbah
> 	>And God will seek from the pursued
> 	>EVEN if the pursuer is righteous and the pursued in wicked!!

That's for Hashem to determine, not for us.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 22 Dec 99, at 1:13, Shlomo Godick wrote:

> Carl Sherer wrote: <<
> Yes, but learning Torah full time is a job. And the people who do 
> learn Torah full time, and who are serious about it, put in more 
> hours at it than most other jobs. Of course, that doesn't have to 
> mean that one's ability to hold a job learning Torah cannot be 
> judged on merit. The Leviyim in the Beis HaMikdash were also 
> subject to being kicked out of the Meshoririm after five years if they 
> were not talented enough.  >>
> 
> Seriousness and merit would seem to be valid criteria, but talent?
> Isn't that a Western criterion foreign to Judaism?  

No more so than the musical ability of a Levi is a western criterion. 
And what is "merit" other than a combination of seriousness, talent 
and middos? 

Just to set the record straight, by "talent" what I mean is ability to 
conquer Torah, to be able to be mechadesh chidushim in Torah 
and to be able to convey Torah to others. Any or all of the above. I 
don't think that's a western criterion at all. How were the members 
of the Sanhedrin chosen? Was it not on their brilliance, on their 
ability to speak 70 languages? Was seriousness and shkida alone 
enough?

It seems that
> most of the mussar seforim tell us that it is the effort, the degree
> of hishtadlus that is important, not necessarily the results.   

Yes, it is. But that's what's important in terms of each of us in his 
own learning Torah. That's what's important in terms of the schar 
that Hashem will give us in the Olam HaEmes for our efforts in 
Torah. But I don't think that it means that we as a sociey are 
obligated to financially support every yungerman who accomplishes 
shmiras hasdorim (coming on time to seder - which is at least a 
determinable criterion), let alone every yungerman who claims to 
be serious about his learning.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing for elites where only a small 
number of academics engage in Torah study. Aderaba. I would 
argue that each yungerman who wishes to be supported in Torah 
study would (in an ideal world) be supported by society to learn full 
time for (e.g.) five years or three children (whichever came first) 
after his wedding. (Note - I take five years or three children because 
of a Kollel I know in the States that has that as an unofficial 
criterion and because five years or three children is generally 
around the time that an oldest child would be starting school). But 
at some point, society cannot support everyone who wants to go 
on learning full time perpetually, and society's leaders have an 
obligation to choose those who have the most potential in terms of 
being the best talmidei chachamim and the best mechanchim. 

The alternative is that we end up with a society that lives in abject 
poverty, that is mevazeh itself to schnorr at home and abroad, or, 
alternatively, seeks marriage partners solely based on how much 
money the father in law can put into the marriage. Neither of those 
alternatives strikes me as being a society that can hope for a long 
term kiyum.

A
> child with a low IQ that gets a 70 in an exam after hours of studying,
> is surely more meritorious than a child with a high IQ who gets a
> 95 after barely preparing.   

More meritrious in the eyes of Shamayim, because he has worked 
harder and with Torah we get schar in Olam HaEmes for ameilus, 
even if we don't succeed. That doesn't mean I (as a baalebus) have 
to work 16 hours a day and learn 2-3 hours a day so that I can 
support his ameilus for 16 hours a day. I'd like to sit and learn full 
time too, but no one will support me while I learn (I'm never going to 
be the gadol hador or even poshuter mechanech), so I have no right 
to go to society and say "bishvili nivra haolam" and therefore since 
I want to learn, you have to support me. And especially if I won't 
even recognize a Yissachar-Zvulun relationship between myself and 
society (which is really what is happening when a school won't 
admit kids because their fathers work - who does that school think 
is supporting its parent body anyway?).

Similarly an avreich not blessed with
> intellectual talent who nonetheless puts in a full day of rigorous
> study l'shem shamayim is surely deserving of financial support. 

Deserving, yes. But from whom? Where does it say that we as a 
society are required to financially support someone for his shmiras 
hasdorim and nothing else? Even the Biur Halacha in 231, which is 
considered by many to be the basis for learning in Kollel today, 
talks about "leharbos gvulo b'talmidim." He isn't talking about 
someone who is learning only for himself. He isn't talking about 
someone who isn't interested in or able to convey what he learns to 
others. If someone is not talented and wants to study l'shem 
shamayim, that's fine. But let him do it on his own cheshbon and 
not on yener's.

> Who is to say which ben kollel has the most merit?  (I am obviously 
> *not* referring to the benchwarmers.)   

I think the Roshei Yeshiva and Roshei Kollel know who are the top 
talmidim and who are not. If you went into the Mir (to take a large 
example) and told the Roshei Yeshiva to choose 500 out of the 
2500 yungerleit over the age of 25 (and I'm throwing out numbers 
here - the only number I have heard is that there are about 2500 
yungerleit and bochrim in the Mir bli ayin hara) who would be able 
to be supported by the community, and that the rest would have to 
go out and work, I am willing to bet that the lists of 500 the various 
Roshei Yeshiva would give you would be awfully similar. 

Look at the out of town Lakewood Kollels in the States. As I 
understand it (and if there is someone on this list who learned in 
one of them, please pipe up), the communities that have them 
agreed to take a limited number of yungerleit and to support them 
sufficiently so that they could live like mentchen and their wives 
would not have to work (full time?). In return, they agreed to be 
maavir shiurim to the community at night while they were in the 
Kollel, to remain in the Kollel for a limited number of years (with the 
exception of the Roshei HaKollel) and to take Rabbinic/leadership 
positions in the community after their time in the Kollel was up. A 
final condition was that no yungerman could have a position in a 
Kollel in a community in which he or his wife had grown up. That 
way, they would be forced to meet the entire community and not 
be insulated with a few friends. (At least those were the criteria I 
heard when those Kollelim started 10-15 years ago). Aren't those 
the same kind of criteria I was discussing? Do you think they took 
serious guys who got 70's on their exams after hours of studying 
for those Kollelim, or did they take guys who got 95's and 100's 
who were also willing and able to teach in the community? Did they 
take the guys who would sit in Beis Medrash all day but couldn't 
figure out the tosfos, or did they take the guys the Rebbe picked to 
say chazoras hashiur? I think the answer is obvious.

This notion of
> allowing  only the "best and brightest" to learn in kollel and 

I advocate everyone being able to learn in Kollel until they become 
a financial burden to society. At that point I think there has to be a 
selection process. In Israel today, the only selection process is 
that the guys who cannot afford it anymore leave when they're 35 
and can go out and work without having to deal with the army. If 
they can find a job that doesn't require more secular education than 
they have. IMHO that is too much and the Charedi community is 
being crushed under the financial burden. Not to mention that there 
may be people leaving because they cannot afford it anymore who 
actually are worthy of being supported.

> relegating the rest to being balabatim 

Why is being a baalebus being "relegated?" Why do you use a 
term that says, it's second class? There have to be Zvulun's so that 
there can be Yissochor's. If someone is honest enough to admit 
that he doesn't have the talent to be the next R. Moshe, he doesn't 
have the cheshek to be a mechanech (and this is without even 
considering how much of our community considers it a bizayon to 
be a mechanech on anything less than a Yeshiva Gdola level), 
what is wrong with his making a parnassa, being kovea itim every 
day, davening with a minyan every day and giving his fair share of 
maaser money to support aniyim and learning (which unfortunately 
have become too close to synonymous in Israel today)? The 
Gemara says that after 120 you are asked "Nososo v'nosato 
b'emes? Kovato itim laTorah?" The baalebus i described can 
answer both of those questions in the affirmative. What is wrong 
with that? Why do you think that's being "relegated?" Note that in 
your din after 120 you are not asked whether you learned 2 or 10 or 
16 hours a day and that the first question is not even whether you 
learned at all....
 
is a foreign import, and 
> to my mind has no place in Jewish hashkafa.

Tell that to the Rambam, to R. Shamshon Refael Hirsch and to 
many many others (sorry, I don't have them in the office, but the 
Biur Halacha in 231 brings many of the mekoros).

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

See what the Aruch Hashulchan writes in Orach Chaim 2:10 toward the end:
"U'bmakom ha'hechrech kmo b'ercha'oht ha'KIRA .... EIN leylech b'kisui rosh".

Josh

I thought this might be of interest to the group....

-- Carl

------- Forwarded message follows -------
Date sent:      	Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:02:28 +0200
To:             	Informal Aliyah discussion group 
<tachlis@shamash.org>
From:           	Mordechai Schiller <morty@mortyschiller.com>
Subject:        	NEW SUPER-INDEX TO MISHNA BERURA

I just got a new sefer that's really incredible. It was put together by 
my
friend and former chavrusa (and former roommate in Sh'or Yoshuv, 
30-odd
years ago!)... Daniel Eidensohn.

If you ever gave up after trying to find something in the Mishna 
Berura
using the table of contents, you need this sefer.  It's called "Yad
Yisrael" and Daniel calls it an "Index to the Mishna Berura." (You 
may have
seen the earlier English edition. But this is more than a translation. It's
completely re-edited and expanded.)

But when you see it, you'll see that calling it simply an "Index" is an
obvious understatement. It's more like a directory or search-engine! It's a
massive 800 pages of painstaking (should I say loving?) detail that leads
you to every Halacha in the Mechaber (the Shulchan Aruch), the Mishna
Berura, and all the commentaries--the Shaar Hatziyun, the Biur Halacha and
the Baer Heitev. And it's fully cross-referenced. 
If it's not in the "Yad Yisrael," it's just not there!

Daniel doesn't want to advertise. He says the seforim stores in
Yerushalayim and B'nai Brak are selling it by word of mouth. So this isn't
an advertisement. I just told you about it!

Mordechai


------------------------ tachlis@shamash.org -----------------------+
Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium  http://shamash.org
------------------------ tachlis@shamash.org -----------------------=


------- End of forwarded message -------


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 22 Dec 99, at 12:05, BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:

> See what the Aruch Hashulchan writes in Orach Chaim 2:10 toward the end:
> "U'bmakom ha'hechrech kmo b'ercha'oht ha'KIRA .... EIN leylech b'kisui rosh".

You could also see Igros Moshe OH 4:2 which comes to pretty 
much the same conclusion.

OTOH everyone has his own definition of hechrech, and if you are 
able to obtain permission to wear one without suffering for it at 
work, why not do it?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

It isn't _Beit Din_ which is suspect.  What is possible, unfortunately, is
that there are people who are suspect.

If this has truly happened once -- then it probably isn't the first time,
and you can make an effort to find other people who have suffered this or
similar problems from these people, and if you have proof, you can present
it at a reliable Beith Din -- and there are many such out there, and make
the issue public.

The first rule is to have proof.

Shoshana L. Boublil
----- Original Message ----- > Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:23:36 -0500
> From: "Daniel B. Schwartz" <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> Subject: BETH DIN
[treachery details deleted]

Russel Hendel wrote: <<
(In passing....How would YOU (Melech) explain the fact that
the Bible calls
>homosexuality a toayvah
>does not call adultery a toayvah
Don't you have to at least include unnaturallness in your definition.
(Note I have no problem modifying my definition with an added component
of contemptible but I still think you need unnaturalness)   >>

Natural means appearing in nature.  Homosexuality can be 
said to be "natural" inasmuch as it is a form of
human sexuality that appears in nature.  Remember, 
notwithstanding Madison Avenue and the opinion makers,
"natural" does not necessarily mean good or acceptable. 
Nature is given and non-normative, lacking any inherent
purpose or direction.  The point of the normative halacha is
to *transcend* the givenness of nature, to rein in or re-direct 
natural impulses. A contributor to the H-JUDAIC discussion list cited
a contribution by Rav Shmuel Boteach that develops this line of 
reasoning.  While I don't agree with everything he writes, I think  the
article is worth reading (it can be found at
gopher://shamash.org:70/00/lists/oxford-judaism/homosexuality).
 
I think the word "toeivah" adds an almost aesthetic dimension to the issur.
(In fact I get the impression that your use of the word "unnatural" has an
aesthetic connotation to it.)  I think the Torah wants to tell us that
it has as it were an aesthetic objection to homosexuality, inasmuch as it
opposes the order and purpose and plan in creation.

Kol tuv,
Shlomo Godick 

Carl,

Most of what you write I agree with.  I too think limits should be placed
on the years in kollel, and I bemoan the socioeconomic aberrations
in chareidi society caused by the reality of army service in Israel.  I 
also agree that schools that accept only children of bnei kollel are
acting wrongly.   My point (and I think you agree with it)
is that we should not go to extremes in applying a utilitarian
yardstick in determining who gets to learn in kollel (as the left in Israel
currently do with their call to limit the yeshiva population to 700
gifted talmidim).  I emphasized that I am not referring simply
to shmiras hasdorim (I called it "bench warming"), but to
a higher level of learning with kavanna leshem 
shamayim.  I think that this kind of learning also has 
utility for society, and protects am Yisrael in eretz Yisrael from 
its enemies -- even when the well-meaning learner is not the
most gifted. 

Another point worth making: in a sense, the entire kollel phenomenon
can be seen as a kind of horaas shaa that was promulgated to
rehabiliate Orthodox Jewry after the Holocaust.  (This is not my idea --
I heard it from a rav in Rehovot.)  If you recall, Ben
Gurion was convinced at the time that the total demise (r"l) of
religious Jewry was a matter of a few years time.  Chaim Weitzman
spoke of the necessity of having to sacrifice the "dust" of European
Jewry in order to build the new Jewish nation in EY.   Our matzav
then was really bad, and b"h through our educational institutions we
managed to create a new generation of lomdei torah and learned
balabatim.   Now perhaps the time has come to normalize chareidi
society a bit and maybe even scale down here and there.  But 
obviously in the interim a lot of vested interests have been created that
are not going to go away so quickly.   And maybe, in light of the Chazon
Ish's dictum that today's midbarios (where one flees when the pritzus of 
society is overwhelming) are the yeshivos, it is still not so clear how 
much "normalization" chareidi society can allow itself.  And,
returning to the original topic, it could be that an avreich that feels 
he lacks the "kochos ha-nefesh" to withstand the temptations 
and moral depravity of secular society, may  be halachically
required to remain in the "midbarios" of the kollelim.

How did you phrase it, Carl?  Should I wrap myself up in my asbestos
suit and wait for the flames to start?

Kol tuv,
Shlomo Godick




 
 


        

On 22 Dec 99, at 14:24, Shlomo Godick wrote:

> Most of what you write I agree with.  I too think limits should be placed
> on the years in kollel, and I bemoan the socioeconomic aberrations
> in chareidi society caused by the reality of army service in Israel.  I 
> also agree that schools that accept only children of bnei kollel are
> acting wrongly.   My point (and I think you agree with it)
> is that we should not go to extremes in applying a utilitarian
> yardstick in determining who gets to learn in kollel (as the left in Israel
> currently do with their call to limit the yeshiva population to 700
> gifted talmidim).  

Yeah, I think we're splitting hairs here. I hadn't heard the 700 
number; I'm surprised they're willing to give us that many. Where 
did it come from? 1948?

I emphasized that I am not referring simply
> to shmiras hasdorim (I called it "bench warming"), but to
> a higher level of learning with kavanna leshem 
> shamayim.  I think that this kind of learning also has 
> utility for society, and protects am Yisrael in eretz Yisrael from 
> its enemies -- even when the well-meaning learner is not the
> most gifted. 

No question.

> Another point worth making: in a sense, the entire kollel phenomenon
> can be seen as a kind of horaas shaa that was promulgated to
> rehabiliate Orthodox Jewry after the Holocaust.  (This is not my idea --
> I heard it from a rav in Rehovot.)  

I've heard it before too. The only problem with that is placing the 
Biur Halacha in a chronological context, but given how many 
comments I have heard about how the Chafetz Chaim foresaw what 
was to happen to European Jewry during the war, that is not so 
hard to do.

If you recall, Ben
> Gurion was convinced at the time that the total demise (r"l) of
> religious Jewry was a matter of a few years time.  Chaim Weitzman
> spoke of the necessity of having to sacrifice the "dust" of European
> Jewry in order to build the new Jewish nation in EY.   Our matzav
> then was really bad, and b"h through our educational institutions we
> managed to create a new generation of lomdei torah and learned
> balabatim.   Now perhaps the time has come to normalize chareidi
> society a bit and maybe even scale down here and there.  But 
> obviously in the interim a lot of vested interests have been created that
> are not going to go away so quickly.   And maybe, in light of the Chazon
> Ish's dictum that today's midbarios (where one flees when the pritzus of 
> society is overwhelming) are the yeshivos, it is still not so clear how 
> much "normalization" chareidi society can allow itself.  

That depends on how much we're willing to work to create 
workplaces where pritzus is minimized or doesn't exist. It seems to 
me that one area where we could be doing this is just about 
anything connected to programming. My wife works for a group of 
technical writers where nearly all the writers are Charedi and most 
of their work is done at home. I have heard of a programming shop 
where the men and women work on separate floors. But, if we don't 
allow Yungerleit and their wives to learn about computers (even 
Bein HaZmanim in the case of the Yungerleit) and we do things like 
try to put the net in cherem, we will never enable those who need a 
parnassa to get one.

I'm really pretty optimistic about the Charedi nachal. So far, they 
have not taken a single kid out of Yeshiva, they have strictly 
Charedi units, these kids have food with the best of the best 
hashgochos, sufficient time to daven, and Rabbanim who come to 
give them shiurim and chizuk every week (these are the most 
common complaints about the army from the Charedi community 
for those who are wondering what I am talking about :-). If they 
come out of the army and become Charedi baalebatim who support 
the Yeshivos but are seen by the chilonim as contributing to 
society, I think it will take a lot of pressure off the rest of Charedi 
society - both financially (in the long run) and in terms of the army 
(almost immediately).

And,
> returning to the original topic, it could be that an avreich that feels 
> he lacks the "kochos ha-nefesh" to withstand the temptations 
> and moral depravity of secular society, may  be halachically
> required to remain in the "midbarios" of the kollelim.

Yes, but does that mean that the rest of us are required to 
financially support him? Or does it mean that he has to work on 
strengthening his neshama? Or should the two be conditioned on 
each other (no idea how you would do that)?

> How did you phrase it, Carl?  Should I wrap myself up in my asbestos
> suit and wait for the flames to start?

I was actually surprised there were none waiting in my box this 
morning. Maybe I should go back to writing about Agunos R"L? :-) 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

What about the principle of Kin'as Sofrim marbe chochmo?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
   This notion of
allowing  only the "best and brightest" to learn in kollel and 
relegating the rest to being balabatim is a foreign import, and 
to my mind has no place in Jewish hashkafa.

Kol tuv,
Shlomo Godick  

*********************


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