Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 204

Wednesday, December 22 1999

• re: Beth Din
• Re[2]: websites
• Re: Beth Din
• Problem children, Alcohol, and Depression
• Re: state's obligation to the poor
• Re: problem kids
• Millenium
• Re: Avodah V4 #203
• Re: Military Halacha
• Re: Avodah V4 #198
• Re: Davenning re the wicked
• Re: Sociology of To'eivah
• Re: state's obligation to the poor
• fake dybbuk
• Kippot in the US Army
• Re: Kippot in the US Army
• fish and dairy
• TOAYVAH=UNNATURAL or CONTEMPTABLE
• Re: Not a proof---Why not?

R' Daniel Schwartz wrote <<< The Beth Din, it seems, doctored the
contracts to confer it with authority to arbitrate visitation...  In
short, the Beth Din falsified documents, and there is eyewitness
testimony that the documents produced in court are not those signed by my
client. >>>

Why is no one willing to name names? Who are these people?

Much has been written on these pages about how we must work hard to solve
the Aguna problem. Well, here is a related problem, and perhaps if we
solve this one, it will accomplish much for that one as well. Namely, we
need to publicize the names of the people who are perverting the Beis Din
system.

Whether the fear is of lawsuits, or of physical retaliation, there's got
to be some kind of safe workaround. I can't think of a way myself, but
the halachos of gitten seem to be so ironclad, that somehow I suspect
this has got to be easier.

Akiva Miller
___________________________________________________________________
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publist.com did very well for me thank you!
Rich W.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: websites 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    12/21/1999 2:40 PM


For info on Jewish journals/magazines try: www.publist.com  (under social 
science/religion/jewish). For getting the index or table of contents of 
thousands of Jewish oriented journals (including journals like TECHUMIN, etc.) 
try RAMBI at Hebrew University  telnet aleph.huji.ac.il  login as aleph
then access RAMBI.

PUBLIST will list the website of the journal if the publisher has provided 
the needed information. If not, and you know the name of the journal, try: 
//alltheweb.com

Josh

I can't do public due to client confidentiality and the fear of a libel
suit.  Batei Din are very willing to sue secularly to protect their "good
name"

----- Original Message -----
From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 4:59 PM
Subject: re: Beth Din


> R' Daniel Schwartz wrote <<< The Beth Din, it seems, doctored the
> contracts to confer it with authority to arbitrate visitation...  In
> short, the Beth Din falsified documents, and there is eyewitness
> testimony that the documents produced in court are not those signed by my
> client. >>>
>
> Why is no one willing to name names? Who are these people?
>
> Much has been written on these pages about how we must work hard to solve
> the Aguna problem. Well, here is a related problem, and perhaps if we
> solve this one, it will accomplish much for that one as well. Namely, we
> need to publicize the names of the people who are perverting the Beis Din
> system.
>
> Whether the fear is of lawsuits, or of physical retaliation, there's got
> to be some kind of safe workaround. I can't think of a way myself, but
> the halachos of gitten seem to be so ironclad, that somehow I suspect
> this has got to be easier.
>
> Akiva Miller
> ___________________________________________________________________
> Why pay more to get Web access?
> Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
> Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

> On Sat, 18 Dec 1999 20:59:21 EST Zeliglaw@aol.com
> writes:
> > In our generation, perhaps the simcha from alcohol
> is a chumra smavei 
> > lididai kula(good intentions yielding a poor
> result). perhaps, we
> should 
> > avoid the potential for real Chilul Hashem and
> urge that we discourage 
> > unsupervised teenagers from getting drunk. 

I couldn't agree more.  There is a difference between
learning to consumed wine for Kidush and teaching
young people to drink heavily on Purim or Simchas
Torah.  Drunken teenagers even at those specified
times of the year are symptomatic of a far greater
problem.  Alcohol  used in this way is nothing more
than a drug used for the purpose of "drowning one's
sorrows" in the same way that any narcotic is used. 
Alcoholism or any other form of drug addiction is a
direct result (amongst many possible results) of
clinical depression.  When a teenager needs to resort
to this type of behavior it is both a cry for help and
means of numbing the pain.  It behoves all of us to be
aware of any behavior patterns that our children
display that is anti-social.  

Getting drunk on Purim is indeed social because
"everyone does it" and is even encouraged by mentors
(Rebbeim, Peer-role-models, and the like).  The
problem is that when a drunk teenager has approval, it
disguises what may be a more severe problem.  

Clinical depression has many causes some psychological
like a bad home environment, or, as is most often the
case, the cause may be biological, where there is a
chemical imbalance in the brain, and neuroreceptors
are "missfiring" and seretonin is either not
transmitted to othyer cells or re-absorbed into the
neurons that are supposed to be transmitting them.  

Either way,  the resulting clinical depression can be
devastating and should be handled only through a
qualified mental health proffessional, prefferebly a
psychiatrist knowledgeable in psychopharmocology. 

The one way it shouldn't be handled is through fear,
whether one fears the disease itself or the
repercussions of someone finding out that their child
is seeing a psychiatrist.  Fear will only lead to
ignorance which leads to self medication by the child
in the form of alcohol or illegeal drugs.  

I personally believe that much of what we are calling
problem children, especially those who come from good
homes, are really children with undiagnosed clinical
depressions masquerading as rebelliousness.

It's time we destigmatized mental illiness and sought
help for those who need it at the earliest possible
stages of the disease so we can nip it in the bud, and
save both the child and his family from a lifetime of
despair. 

HM 
__________________________________________________
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Carl Sherer wrote: <<
Yes, but learning Torah full time is a job. And the people who do 
learn Torah full time, and who are serious about it, put in more 
hours at it than most other jobs. Of course, that doesn't have to 
mean that one's ability to hold a job learning Torah cannot be 
judged on merit. The Leviyim in the Beis HaMikdash were also 
subject to being kicked out of the Meshoririm after five years if they 
were not talented enough.  >>

Seriousness and merit would seem to be valid criteria, but talent?
Isn't that a Western criterion foreign to Judaism?  It seems that
most of the mussar seforim tell us that it is the effort, the degree
of hishtadlus that is important, not necessarily the results.   A
child with a low IQ that gets a 70 in an exam after hours of studying,
is surely more meritorious than a child with a high IQ who gets a
95 after barely preparing.   Similarly an avreich not blessed with
intellectual talent who nonetheless puts in a full day of rigorous
study l'shem shamayim is surely deserving of financial support. 
Who is to say which ben kollel has the most merit?  (I am obviously 
*not* referring to the benchwarmers.)   This notion of
allowing  only the "best and brightest" to learn in kollel and 
relegating the rest to being balabatim is a foreign import, and 
to my mind has no place in Jewish hashkafa.

Kol tuv,
Shlomo Godick  
  

    

--- "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> wrote:
> On 20 Dec 99, at 12:48, Alan Davidson wrote:
> 
> > never mind the TV test? I just think yeshivos (or
> Crown Heights or Boro Park 
> > and definitely not Flatbush) are the airtight
> vacuum-sealed containers folks 
> > make them out to be (or would like to assume they
> are).
> 
> Did you mean that they are NOT the airtight vacuum
> sealed 
> containers etc.? 
> 
> I think you may have misunderstood my question. You
> said that 
> you don't believe that non-fruhm kids "infecting"
> fruhm kids is a 
> problem. Obviously, many schools believe that it IS
> a problem, and 
> that's why they make litmus tests like does the
> mother cover her 
> hair, is there a TV in the house, does the father
> work for a living, 
> etc.

It is the above mentioned "litmus tests" that are the
single biggest cause of creating the fractious society
we have today.  Nothing has contributed more to
factionalism than these types of "tests" being
employed by schools to "separate out" the
"Wheat"(Children to be raised "Al Taharas HaKodesh")
from the "Chafe" (The rest of our so called orthodox
children who have been made Tameh by their TVs). 

This leads to newer and "better" schools for the
precious darlings so they won't be tainted. What's to
be done with these poor wretched children?  They are
treated like Kiruv projects at best and at worst,
written off.  The result? The RW is ever moving to the
right only to reject the old less frum school which
was perfectly frum last year before the new school was
created.  The new school syphons off the RW children
and the old school attracts more LW children.  All is
fine and good for the new school until some in the new
school decides that it's school is not operating "Al
Taharas HaKodesh" enough for some other reasons
(perhaps there is too much english). So a new school
starts.  Now there are three schools. And so it goes
ad nauseum.

HM
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Jordan Hirsch responded to Senator Moynihan's words as follows:

"Knowing as I do his literary style, I would venture to guess that this
reply
was probably penned by David Luchins.

Jordan Hirsch "

I suspected same.  I feared that suggesting an alternate authorship would
take the edge off of the truth that lays in the words.  Sometimes we suffer
from refusing to hear truth from those closer to us, but if it originates
from an unexpected source we/some are more inclined to lend an ear.  I
posted this because some here and elsewhere had beguun some of the "most
important <fill in the blank> of the millenium," and in the Jewish education
context no less.

NW

Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 20:39:13 +0200
From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject: RE: Was re: Reb Shlomo Carlebach and Carlebach minyanim, Now R'
Avrohom Elya Kaplan

> That's about seven blatt a day with Rif and Rosh plus all of
> Shulchan Aruch etc. Doesn't sound like a lot of time for depth.
>

Keep in mind these things were *not* taught for the average bal-ha-bayis.
The chassidim of that time were talmidei chachamim of a *high* degree.

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

------------------------------

Most early chasidim were talmidai chachomim??!! You seem to be confused
between early chasidim and chasidim harishonim. If not for the lack of
univeral Jewish education the Ba'al Shem Tov TZK"L, ZY"A, would not have
found a void to fill.

In a message dated 12/21/99 10:21:10 AM US Central Standard Time, 
jerosenb@hcs.harvard.edu writes:

<< in any case, observant judaism has been in the military for well over 
 30 years and not everyone is used to it.   >>

True. The military expects all chaplains of all faiths to serve anyone who 
needs it in dire circumstances. So let me pose another halachic question: May 
an Orthodox Jewish rabbi serving as a chaplain in combat comfort a dying 
Catholic soldier by holding his hand and reciting the last rites? May the 
Jewish chaplain carry those little sealed vials of "holy water" to hand out 
for the same purpose? Is this idolatory? Can the rabbi commit the "sin" and 
take whatever punishment HaShem might hand out later? This is real question 
based on a real incident in Vietnam. I'd be most interested in hearing what 
the Avodah participants think.

David Finch 

From the point of view of strict
> > definition we could use initials HOS as opposed to MZ, (though we know
the
> > former usually, not always, implies the latter.
>
> This is precisely the the type of misinformation I have been writing
about.
> Sexual
> attraction to same-sex individuals does not usually lead to MZ.  A
> significant majority
> of adolescents who have such feelings ultimately identify and function as
> heterosexuals.
> Sexual orientation, sexual attraction and MZ are very different phenomena.
> If we are
> careless in our dealings with these issues we risk being shofech damim.

I hear your point and respect your professional knowledge on this issue.
By HOS I'm not referring to the passing adolescent fancies of many young
people in boarding schools etc, or the passive disposition of those heroic
people who manage to restrain their forbidden impulses.  I'm referring
instead to the phenomenon we see expressed today by those people who are
identifying themselves by their orientation. If you tell me that according
to the statistics even this does not usually involve MZ, I could only ask
why  the spread of AIDS seems to support my assumption.  I'm sorry I wasn't
clear-  I just didn't want to enter the fray on this one-  simply support
the ideal of loshon nekiah.

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.

----- Original Message -----
From: Allen Baruch <Abaruch@SINAI-BALT.COM>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 4:38 PM
Subject: RE: Davenning re the wicked


> While I don't believe this is a raayoh to anything, they do tell
> a story about (pretty sure it was) R' Akiva Eiger where he reminded
> a man who refused to give his wife a get that the mishna says
> "v'koneh as atzmah b'get uv'missas haball". The man still rudely
> refused and when he left the building , fell down the stairs and died.

Fine-  this is G-d's final verdict. G-d knows if a person is incapable of
tshuva- we don't. If the person gets mita bidei shamayim this is really
nothing to do with our obligation to daven one way or another. R. Eiger was
delivering a warning rather than a threat- giving the mesarev one last
chance to capitulate.
In the case of Dovid hamelech's Shira-  this is very much after the fact.
At this point one thanks G-d for a y'shua. If they'd all run away and/or
done tshuva wouldn't Dovid hamelech have sung Shira then also? The main
point for rejoicing at that time was that Israel was delivered. At the time
of yetziat mitzrayim and at certain other times in our history it was
appropriate for G-d to harden the hearts of Israel's enemies for His
ultimate greater glory and for other reasons. This is G-d's  call, not ours.
We could cover all bases and daven something along the lines of "please G-d-
help ploni do tshuva. If there's no chance of that-  please REMOVE him. "
Which reminds me-  there's a story of a corrupt lawyer who went out on a
lake in an aluminium boat when the storm clouds were gathering, stood up and
challenged G-d-  "If You think I'm a lousy person,  come and get me!".
There was a very bright flash....



>
>

Can't we at least
> admit that we are more frightened, personally and as a group, by the idea
> that our neighbor is a homosexual than we are by the idea that he doesn't
pay
> his taxes?
>
> David Finch

Honestly?  No, I wouldn't find it personally threatening or frightening to
live next door to someone who identifies himself/herself as a homosexual.  I
have been well acquainted with a few over the years-  one simply establishes
boundaries.  One of these acquaintances died of AIDS.  I cried for him, and
for his horrible foolishness in following his impulses when he knew the
Torah view and kept many other mitzvos.  This does not contradict my
convictions and feelings of revulsion re MZ & znut as acts in themselves-
whether any particular individual is guilty or not is a separate issue.  I
would advise my older children to keep a certain distance, however, since
tznius halachos and codes (negiah, yichud, extensive conversation etc) apply
differently.
I'd feel much more uncomfortable living next to a liar, cheat or thief,
probably mainly because of the potential for unpleasant incidences.  In the
case of the man blowing shofar after a scandal, if we knew about it in time
we'd go and hear shofar at another shul and we'd express our disapproval to
the gabbai of the first shul-  and encourage others to do the same. Brushing
things under the carpet should not be tolerated.  Mrs. GA

Graduate school is a full-time job as well -- but after a while the system 
doesn't support everyone so new blood can get in,  A perhaps more 
appropriate comparison would be to look at the Lubavitcher Rebbe's sichos on 
Parshas Shelach and the spies -- it wasn't that they were not spiritual 
enough it was because they were too spiritual and didn't want to leave the 
world of the midbar where everything was provided for them for eretz Isroel 
(which was their makom avodah as far as the aibishter was concerned).


>From: "Shlomo Godick" <shlomog@mehish.co.il>
>Reply-To: avodah@aishdas.org
>To: "Avodah List" <avodah@aishdas.org>
>Subject: Re: state's  obligation to the poor
>Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:13:17 +0200
>
>Carl Sherer wrote: <<
>Yes, but learning Torah full time is a job. And the people who do
>learn Torah full time, and who are serious about it, put in more
>hours at it than most other jobs. Of course, that doesn't have to
>mean that one's ability to hold a job learning Torah cannot be
>judged on merit. The Leviyim in the Beis HaMikdash were also
>subject to being kicked out of the Meshoririm after five years if they
>were not talented enough.  >>
>
>Seriousness and merit would seem to be valid criteria, but talent?
>Isn't that a Western criterion foreign to Judaism?  It seems that
>most of the mussar seforim tell us that it is the effort, the degree
>of hishtadlus that is important, not necessarily the results.   A
>child with a low IQ that gets a 70 in an exam after hours of studying,
>is surely more meritorious than a child with a high IQ who gets a
>95 after barely preparing.   Similarly an avreich not blessed with
>intellectual talent who nonetheless puts in a full day of rigorous
>study l'shem shamayim is surely deserving of financial support.
>Who is to say which ben kollel has the most merit?  (I am obviously
>*not* referring to the benchwarmers.)   This notion of
>allowing  only the "best and brightest" to learn in kollel and
>relegating the rest to being balabatim is a foreign import, and
>to my mind has no place in Jewish hashkafa.
>
>Kol tuv,
>Shlomo Godick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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see Wed  HAaretz for expose of the 'dybbuk' that was exorcised in Israel
this year...

Ms. Janet writes;
"in any case, observant judaism has been in the military for well over 
30 years and not everyone is used to it.  e.g., the first rabbi chaplain 
was given a uniform with a cross on it because that was the standard
chaplain uniform.  there's also no clear kipah precedent.  one soldier wanted
to wear a kipah, so the rabbi-chaplain told him to get the largest, most
colorful kipah.  the soldier wore the bright kipah for a day before his 
commanding officer called in the rabbi and said that he wouldn't allow any 
soldier of his to wear such a BEANIE.  so the rabbi told the c.o. that the 
soldier might be persuaded into wearing a non-descript black knitted one.  
the c.o. was amazed.  "really?  do you think he would agree to do that?"
"maybe," said the rabbi."

This is interesting because a frum friend of mine in the US Army told me
that he wears a US Army regulation size kippa.  Maybe the origin of the
Arny issued regulation kippa is from the events recorded in your story?

Shaul Weinreb

I believe the origin of the regulation regarding the military kippah is fallout
from the U.S. Supreme Court decision in Goldman v. Weinberger, 475 U.S. 503, 106
S.CT. 1310 (1986) in which  an Air Force officer who was serving as a clinical
psychologist at a mental health clinic on an Air Force base, and who was an
Orthodox rabbi, had been wearing a kippah while he was on duty indoors, and he
had been wearing a service cap over his kippah while he was outdoors. The
officer was informed by his hospital commander that wearing a kippah while on
duty indoors was a violation of an Air Force regulation relating to uniforms,
the officer was ordered to discontinue wearing a kippah while on duty indoors,
and was warned that failure to obey the regulation could subject him to a
court-martial. The officer brought suit against the Secretary of Defense and
others, claiming that application of the Air Force regulation to prevent him
from wearing his kippah infringed on his First Amendment right to free exercise
of religion.

 In a 7-2 decision (Justices Brennan and Marshall, dissenting) the Supreme Court
upheld the constitutionality of the Air Force's regulation:

"The First Amendment does not prohibit the challenged regulation from being
applied to petitioner even though its effect is to restrict the wearing of the
headgear required by his religious beliefs. That Amendment does not require the
military to accommodate  such practices as wearing a yarmulke in the face of its
view that they would detract from the uniformity sought by dress regulations."
[taken from the Supreme Court's summary]

As a consequence of this decision, I believe there was either a change in the
law, allowing for the wearing of a kippah, or pressure was exerted by Congress
on the military to change its regulations in this matter.  Nat Lewin was the
lead counsel for Dr. Goldman in this case.

//Avi

Avram Sacks





From: Saul Weinreb <sweinr1@uic.edu> on 12/21/99 09:05 PM

To:   avodah@aishdas.org@SMTP@cchntmsd
cc:

Subject:  Kippot in the US Army

Ms. Janet writes;
"in any case, observant judaism has been in the military for well over
30 years and not everyone is used to it.  e.g., the first rabbi chaplain
was given a uniform with a cross on it because that was the standard
chaplain uniform.  there's also no clear kipah precedent.  one soldier wanted
to wear a kipah, so the rabbi-chaplain told him to get the largest, most
colorful kipah.  the soldier wore the bright kipah for a day before his
commanding officer called in the rabbi and said that he wouldn't allow any
soldier of his to wear such a BEANIE.  so the rabbi told the c.o. that the
soldier might be persuaded into wearing a non-descript black knitted one.
the c.o. was amazed.  "really?  do you think he would agree to do that?"
"maybe," said the rabbi."

This is interesting because a frum friend of mine in the US Army told me
that he wears a US Army regulation size kippa.  Maybe the origin of the
Arny issued regulation kippa is from the events recorded in your story?

Shaul Weinreb

see Shach Yoreh Deah 87:5 who quotes the Levush that there is a danger to
eat dairy and fish. the Shach says that this is also quoted in the Beis
Yosef. Shach claims that this is a mistake
R' Dov Weiss

Melech writes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:31:12 -0500
From: "M. Press" <mpress@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Toevah

Russel Hendel suggests that toevah means unnatural.  That is clearly
incorrect, as
is abundantly evident from many psukim, in which the root  means
"contemptible" or "to hold as contemptible".

Melech
M. Press, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology, Touro College
mpress@ix.netcom.com or melechp@touro.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think 
	>comtemptable because of unnaturalness 
is a fair translation.

I may be wrong but I am not "clearly wrong". The posookim
do bear me out. Could you kindly supply one or two good
examples so we can continue this disagreement and find
out the essential difference between us (if anything)

(In passing....How would YOU (Melech) explain the fact that
the Bible calls
	>homosexuality a toayvah
	>does not call adultery a toayvah
Don't you have to at least include unnaturallness in your definition.
(Note I have no problem modifying my definition with an added component
of contemptible but I still think you need unnaturalness)

Russell Hendel; Http://www.shamash.org/rashi/
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Carl writes to my question as follows

On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:35:53 +0200 "Carl M. Sherer"
<cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> writes:
> On 20 Dec 99, at 22:31, Russell J Hendel wrote:
> 
> > Could Sender kindly tell me why the attached is not a proof?
> 
> Because we ordinary people are not on the madreiga of R. Akiva 
> Eiger, and when we daven for our enemies to suffer or die, and 
> HKB"H looks at our maasim, most of us will fail R"L.
> 
> -- Carl
> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:38:07 -0500
> > From: "Allen Baruch" <Abaruch@SINAI-BALT.COM>
> > Subject: RE: Davenning re the wicked
> > 
> > While I don't believe this is a raayoh to anything, they do tell 
> > a story about (pretty sure it was) R' Akiva Eiger where he 
> reminded 
> > a man who refused to give his wife a get that the mishna says 
> > "v'koneh as atzmah b'get uv'missas haball". The man still rudely 
> > refused and when he left the building , fell down the stairs and 
> died.
> > 
> > kol tuv
> > Sender Baruch
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > Russell;
> > 
> ___________________________________________________________________
> > Why pay more to get Web access?
> > Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
> > Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
> > 
> 
> 
> Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
> Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
> Telephone 972-2-625-7751
> Fax 972-2-625-0461
> mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
> mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
> 
> Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
> Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
> Thank you very much.

Carl I have already explained. We are not praying eg because :"he got 
an aliyah and not me"---we are praying for agunoth. And under such
circumstances I hold that our past deeds are not remembered. I even
use Rabbi Akiva Egers story as a proof.

Again...I don't disagree with you that our deeds will be remembered
if we pray against people. But that is only in ordinary matters. For
loss of jobs or lack of gets there is no rememberance of our deeds
since the other party has brazenly taken advantage of helpless people
and violated a torah threat.

Cf The Koheleth Rabbah
	>And God will seek from the pursued
	>EVEN if the pursuer is righteous and the pursued in wicked!!

Think about it

Russell Hendel; http://www.shamash.org/rashi/
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