Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 202

Tuesday, December 21 1999

• Re: Toevah
• Re: Avodah V4 #191
• Re: Sociology of To'eivah
• RE: Not a proof---Why not?
• Re: Sociology of To'eivah
• Re: Avodah V4 #191
• Re: problem kids
• Re: problem kids
• RE: Was re: Reb Shlomo Carlebach and Carlebach minyanim, Now R' Avrohom Elya Kaplan
• RE: Was re: Reb Shlomo Carlebach and Carlebach minyanim, Now R' Avrohom Elya Kaplan
• re: Drinking on Simchas Torah
• re: Drinking on Simchas Torah
• Re[2]: Avodah V4 #191
• Re[2]: Not a proof---Why not?
• Re[2]: Avodah V4 #191
• Re: Sociology of To'eivah
• Re: Re[2]: Avodah V4 #191
• Re[4]: Avodah V4 #191
• Websitese
• Re: Re[2]: Avodah V4 #191
• Re: Websitese
• Millenium
• Re: Sociology of To'eivah

Russel Hendel suggests that toevah means unnatural.  That is clearly
incorrect, as
is abundantly evident from many psukim, in which the root  means
"contemptible" or "to hold as contemptible".

Melech
M. Press, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology, Touro College
mpress@ix.netcom.com or melechp@touro.edu

In a message dated 12/20/99 9:02:26 AM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< Q: what is it about Homosexuality that makes the military so uptight?
  >>

Name something that doesn't make the military uptight.

David Finch

In a message dated 12/20/99 10:50:49 AM US Central Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< Halevai we'd be as disgusted with business cheats, who (I presume) have far
 less ta'avah to overcome than do m"z.
  >>

But we aren't. Known tax cheats, cruel exploiters of cheap immigrant labor, 
wife-beaters, philanders, etc. are occasionally treated as great personages 
in various sectors of the Jewish community, so long as their personal 
idiosycrasies are kept under the table, they give lots of money to the right 
Jewish charities, and they don't get caught. When is the last time a rabbi 
railed at the pulpit about the labor practices common, if certainly 
(hopefully) not prevalent, in many nursing homes owned by observant Jews? Or 
about some of the curious cash transactions we hear about? Can't we at least 
admit that we are more frightened, personally and as a group, by the idea 
that our neighbor is a homosexual than we are by the idea that he doesn't pay 
his taxes?

David Finch

On 20 Dec 99, at 22:31, Russell J Hendel wrote:

> Could Sender kindly tell me why the attached is not a proof?

Because we ordinary people are not on the madreiga of R. Akiva 
Eiger, and when we daven for our enemies to suffer or die, and 
HKB"H looks at our maasim, most of us will fail R"L.

-- Carl

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:38:07 -0500
> From: "Allen Baruch" <Abaruch@SINAI-BALT.COM>
> Subject: RE: Davenning re the wicked
> 
> While I don't believe this is a raayoh to anything, they do tell 
> a story about (pretty sure it was) R' Akiva Eiger where he reminded 
> a man who refused to give his wife a get that the mishna says 
> "v'koneh as atzmah b'get uv'missas haball". The man still rudely 
> refused and when he left the building , fell down the stairs and died.
> 
> kol tuv
> Sender Baruch
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Russell;
> ___________________________________________________________________
> Why pay more to get Web access?
> Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
> Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
> 


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 21 Dec 99, at 0:54, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/20/99 10:50:49 AM US Central Standard Time, 
> micha@aishdas.org writes:
> 
> << Halevai we'd be as disgusted with business cheats, who (I presume) have far
>  less ta'avah to overcome than do m"z.
>   >>
> 
> But we aren't. Known tax cheats, cruel exploiters of cheap immigrant labor, 
> wife-beaters, philanders, etc. are occasionally treated as great personages 
> in various sectors of the Jewish community, so long as their personal 
> idiosycrasies are kept under the table, they give lots of money to the right 
> Jewish charities, and they don't get caught. When is the last time a rabbi 
> railed at the pulpit about the labor practices common, if certainly 
> (hopefully) not prevalent, in many nursing homes owned by observant Jews? 

Rabbi Norman Lamm did in the 70's after Bernard Bergman was 
sent to jail. If you've never read the case, it was the first case cited 
in my Criminal Law book. Unfortunately that book got left behind 
when I made aliya, but it's a New York case.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 21 Dec 99, at 0:38, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/20/99 9:02:26 AM US Central Standard Time, 
> richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:
> 
> << Q: what is it about Homosexuality that makes the military so uptight?
>   >>
> 
> Name something that doesn't make the military uptight.

Tail Hook (or whatever that famous military party was called).

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:58:36 +0200
> From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
> Subject: Re: problem kids
[del]
> I think you may have misunderstood my question. You said that
> you don't believe that non-fruhm kids "infecting" fruhm kids is a
> problem. Obviously, many schools believe that it IS a problem, and
> that's why they make litmus tests like does the mother cover her
> hair, is there a TV in the house, does the father work for a living,
> etc. On what basis do you say that there is no problem of "non-
> fruhm" kids "infecting" "fruhm" kids?
>
> - -- Carl

 In another list we were discussing the Ideal Community.  One of my criteria
was open-mindness.  The above litmus tests are the perfect example of
closemindness.

TV screens can be used for educational purposes.  Here in Israel we have
wonderful math, science and language classes on T.V.  I recall, as a kid,
being able to keep up with the class during a bad bout of the flu thanks to
educational T.V.  Nowadays they are finally filming Agadot Chazal, there is
an excellent video of the story of Nachum Ish Gamzu, there is another
excellent video that tells the story of a child's first visit to the Beit
HaMikdash at Pesach, and I'm sure there are more.

And what kind of litmus test is: "does the father work for a living"?  Does
this mean he isn't fruhm? Or he is too fruhm as he both works and doesn't
rely on others, and also studies to the best of his ability?

I know dozens of people, my parents' age, who sent their kids to Chareidi
schools -- and they themselves would never have been accepted to these
schools as they came from secular homes and learned Yidishkeit at religious
school in the States.  Imagine how many jews are lost to us b/c of such
litmus tests!   From my, perhaps limited, experience, many of the kids who
started fruhm and become secular did so whether there were or weren't kids
from secular homes in their schools.  One of the things many fruhm kids who
leave say is:  "we suddenly realized there was whole world out there we knew
nothing about".  Perhaps knowing about it, learning about the world under
supervision, could have prevented the idealization of the secular world that
these specific kids felt.  Just a thought.

Shoshana L. Boublil

On 21 Dec 99, at 8:56, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:

> 
> > Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:58:36 +0200
> > From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
> > Subject: Re: problem kids
> [del]
> > I think you may have misunderstood my question. You said that
> > you don't believe that non-fruhm kids "infecting" fruhm kids is a
> > problem. Obviously, many schools believe that it IS a problem, and
> > that's why they make litmus tests like does the mother cover her
> > hair, is there a TV in the house, does the father work for a living,
> > etc. On what basis do you say that there is no problem of "non-
> > fruhm" kids "infecting" "fruhm" kids?
> >
> > - -- Carl
> 
>  In another list we were discussing the Ideal Community.  One of my criteria
> was open-mindness.  The above litmus tests are the perfect example of
> closemindness.

Whoaa!!!! I didn't say I agreed with those tests. I asked the original 
poster (who states his profession as sociologist) whether he has 
empirical evidence that all the schools who use those tests are 
wrong. If he does, I am interested in hearing it.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

A Breslov friend of mine just sent me the following quote:

From "Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom" #76 (end):

"You should study enough each day so that at the end of a year you will have
completed the entire Talmud with Rif and Rosh, all of Shukcha Arukh,
Midrashim, Zohar...Besides this, YOU SHOULD ALSO SPEND SOME TIME EACH DAY
***STUDYING IN DEPTH***."

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

On 21 Dec 99, at 12:49, Akiva Atwood wrote:

> A Breslov friend of mine just sent me the following quote:
> 
> >From "Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom" #76 (end):
> 
> "You should study enough each day so that at the end of a year you
> will have completed the entire Talmud with Rif and Rosh, all of
> Shukcha Arukh, Midrashim, Zohar...Besides this, YOU SHOULD ALSO SPEND
> SOME TIME EACH DAY ***STUDYING IN DEPTH***."

That's about seven blatt a day with Rif and Rosh plus all of 
Shulchan Aruch etc. Doesn't sound like a lot of time for depth.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Carl Sherer wrote: <<
 Where (if anywhere) is there a source for all of the disgusting 
things that go on in many shuls during Musaf on Simchas Torah in 
chu"l R"L. I have NEVER seen anything on Shmini Atzeres here 
(maybe because I only daven in Yeshivish places?) like what I saw 
in many shuls on Simchas Torah in chu"l.   >>

Twenty years ago I was in a shul in the States on Simchas Torah
where the shaliach tzibbur was lifted up and carried to a different
spot in the middle of chazoras ha-shatz!  So I think the term 
"disgusting" may be a bit understated.

Of course, in EY such behavior would be unthinkable because 
the musaf on Shmini Atzeres/Simchas Torah comes just after
Yizkor and is the occasion on which Tefilas Geshem is uttered.
The chazzan wears a kittel as on the Yamim Noraim and the
tefila is chanted with the niggun of the Yamim Noraim.  And rain
is taken very seriously in EY!   No one would dare violate the
solemn spirit. 

Kol tuv,
Shlomo Godick

On 21 Dec 99, at 13:00, Shlomo Godick wrote:

> Twenty years ago I was in a shul in the States on Simchas Torah
> where the shaliach tzibbur was lifted up and carried to a different
> spot in the middle of chazoras ha-shatz!  So I think the term 
> "disgusting" may be a bit understated.

I witnessed a similar incident in New Jersey in the early 80's. I 
walked out of the shul in disgust (before davening ended), but I was 
loud enough about it that when I went back to the same shul the 
following year (we did not live in that town), there was at least a 
second minyan at which I was asked to daven Musaf, and guards 
were posted (literally) to make sure there was no repeat 
performance. I suspect that the same old thing went on in the 
"regular" minyan.

> Of course, in EY such behavior would be unthinkable because 
> the musaf on Shmini Atzeres/Simchas Torah comes just after
> Yizkor and is the occasion on which Tefilas Geshem is uttered.
> The chazzan wears a kittel as on the Yamim Noraim and the
> tefila is chanted with the niggun of the Yamim Noraim.  And rain
> is taken very seriously in EY!   No one would dare violate the
> solemn spirit. 

I certainly hope that you are right. OTOH they also use the Yamim 
Noraim nigun in chu"l on Simchas Torah as a joke....

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Clarification:My explanation was about the strong antipathy of people towards 
homosexuality as opposed to other things; e.g. geneivo.  Many people feel 
threatened on a viscreal level by homcsexuality - even more so than say by 
muggers.

The issue of Kedoshim Tihyu more fully explains the Torah's antipathy towards 
homosexuality...

R ich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________




My philosophy has been similar, but I go a bit further. R' Wolpoe's 
explanation is a fine explanation of why MZ is forbidden to non-Jews (if 
in fact it is, which I've never looked into). 

<snip>

Akiva Miller

___________________________________________________________________ 
Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! 
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Plus R. Akiva Eiger was an objective 3rd party not an involved party.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RE: Not a proof---Why not? 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    12/21/1999 4:35 AM


On 20 Dec 99, at 22:31, Russell J Hendel wrote:

> Could Sender kindly tell me why the attached is not a proof?

Because we ordinary people are not on the madreiga of R. Akiva 
Eiger, and when we daven for our enemies to suffer or die, and 
HKB"H looks at our maasim, most of us will fail R"L.

-- Carl

They were uptight about integration too, but they went along with it - albeit 
reluctantly.

But they fought bitterly with Clinton over the issue of homosexuality. 

For some reason, it was easier to mold a unified force from disparate racs than 
it was to unify gays and straights.  There might be a valid underlying reason 
for his - aside from a more virulent form of bias

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #191  
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    12/21/1999 1:48 AM


In a message dated 12/20/99 9:02:26 AM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< Q: what is it about Homosexuality that makes the military so uptight?
  >>

Name something that doesn't make the military uptight.

David Finch

In a message dated 12/21/99 3:40:20 AM US Central Standard Time, 
cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:

<< Rabbi Norman Lamm did in the 70's after Bernard Bergman was 
 sent to jail. If you've never read the case, it was the first case cited 
 in my Criminal Law book. Unfortunately that book got left behind 
 when I made aliya, but it's a New York case.
  >>

After Mr. Bergman was caught. 

David Finch

In a message dated 12/21/99 7:57:17 AM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< For some reason, it was easier to mold a unified force from disparate racs 
than 
 it was to unify gays and straights.  There might be a valid underlying 
reason 
 for his - aside from a more virulent form of bias
  >>

Maybe, maybe not. Truman officially "integrated" the armed forces in 1947 or 
thereabouts. Ten years later, racism and segregation still permeated the 
command structure, the make-up of elite units, ladders of promotion, etc. The 
Vietnam war changed much of that, especially when white soldiers got used to 
serving under black officers. Full integration probably wasn't achieved until 
the late 1970s, maybe thirty years after Truman's gesture.

Give the military thirty years to adapt to homosexuality, and it'll do it. 
Indeed, were one to give the military thirty years to adapt to observant 
Judaism, it could do that, too. Think of it. Soldiers are already used to 
wearing dark uniforms with hats. They are also used to being obedient, which 
is a departure from us. Ten thousand minyanim every shabbos, at bases 
throughout the world -- and no one will talk during the davening!

David Finch

Truman did NOT undo racism.  he created an integrated fighting force of people 
that might hate each otehr but could still fight together on the battelfield!

The problem with Gays, is that for some reason Stragiths resist the idea of 
mutual reliance and depndence. It's not so much hate, as it is mistrust! (yes 
the 2 DO overlap..)

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Avodah V4 #191   
  

Maybe, maybe not. Truman officially "integrated" the armed forces in 1947 or 
thereabouts. Ten years later, racism and segregation still permeated the 
command structure, the make-up of elite units, ladders of promotion, etc. The 
Vietnam war changed much of that, especially when white soldiers got used to 
serving under black officers. Full integration probably wasn't achieved until 
the late 1970s, maybe thirty years after Truman's gesture.

<snip>
David Finch

Here is a project for us.

Can we come up with the URL's for all the Orthodox publications that are or 
might be on-line.

EG Jewish Action, YI Viewpoint, Jewish Observer, etc.

Rich Wolpoe

On Tue, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:19:11AM -0500, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
> Indeed, were one to give the military thirty years to adapt to observant 
> Judaism, it could do that, too. Think of it. Soldiers are already used to 
> wearing dark uniforms with hats. They are also used to being obedient, which 
> is a departure from us. Ten thousand minyanim every shabbos, at bases 
> throughout the world -- and no one will talk during the davening!
 
had eisenhower required the military to become entirely black, i think
it would have taken way more than 30 years.  

in any case, observant judaism has been in the military for well over 
30 years and not everyone is used to it.  e.g., the first rabbi chaplain 
was given a uniform with a cross on it because that was the standard
chaplain uniform.  there's also no clear kipah precedent.  one soldier wanted
to wear a kipah, so the rabbi-chaplain told him to get the largest, most
colorful kipah.  the soldier wore the bright kipah for a day before his 
commanding officer called in the rabbi and said that he wouldn't allow any 
soldier of his to wear such a BEANIE.  so the rabbi told the c.o. that the 
soldier might be persuaded into wearing a non-descript black knitted one.  
the c.o. was amazed.  "really?  do you think he would agree to do that?"
"maybe," said the rabbi.

it's a good story, but it's unfortunate that people have to be devious
like this.  

(incidentally, it's a completely true story.  i heard it from this
chaplain-rabbi himself.)

apparently, there are no muslim chaplains, so they all go to the rabbis
for help in getting kosher food.  

janet

On Tue, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:26:03AM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> Here is a project for us.
> Can we come up with the URL's for all the Orthodox publications that are or 
> might be on-line.
> 
> EG Jewish Action, YI Viewpoint, Jewish Observer, etc.

there are really good compilations of URLs you might try.  
the frum side of the web has a number, plus links to other collections
of links.  

http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~walrus/

i think shamash.org may also have a good collection of URLs.

janet

The following was posted on CrossCurrents: A Journal of Torah and Current
Affairs.  I have not been following Avodah closely, so if it has appeared
here previously, please accept my apologies.

It is hard to imagine a better response to the significance of the
Millennium to Jews,
than this piece from the December issue of Hadassah Magazine
(http://www.hadassah.org/news/pubfrm2.htm).  Eleven people (ten of
them Jews) were asked for their thoughts on the event that is now upon
us.  This is what NY Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan wrote:

I must admit to a measure of bemused bewilderment at being asked to
expound upon the "meaning of the new millennium  to the Jewish
people." While I know the editors of "Hadassah Magazine plan ahead,  I
was surprised to be asked to explore the import of the  Seventh
Millennium, which Jewish friends inform me is still  240 years in the
future. On reflection, I realize that a mere quarter of a millennium
means a lot less to your readers than it does to most Americans. The
cycle of your holidays and the rhythm of your rituals echo events that
took place two or  three thousand years ago. Your very organization is
named after a young Jewish woman who was taken to the court of a
Persian king several centuries before the common era and whose heroism
is still celebrated every year during the Purim holiday. Why then
should the advent of a new millennium as reckoned on either the
secular or sacred calendar have a particular import on a people
blessed with timeless continuity and a  seamless communal memory? Why
indeed?

[Thanks to Rabbi Yitzchak Etshalom]

On 21 Dec 99, at 10:04, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/21/99 3:40:20 AM US Central Standard Time, 
> cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:
> 
> << Rabbi Norman Lamm did in the 70's after Bernard Bergman was 
>  sent to jail. If you've never read the case, it was the first case cited 
>  in my Criminal Law book. Unfortunately that book got left behind 
>  when I made aliya, but it's a New York case.
>   >>
> 
> After Mr. Bergman was caught. 

True. But better late than never. And believe he didn't criticize 
Rabbi Bergman (yes, the man had smicha) for getting caught. He 
criticized him for what he did. And Rabbi Lamm did it in public from 
his pulpit (he was the Rav at the Jewish Center on the Upper West 
Side at the time). I was there.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

*********************


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