Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 200

Monday, December 20 1999

• OTHO ISH
• standard of living - Israel
• Drinking on Simchas Torah
• fish & dairy
• Re[2]: Lechaim - Humor Alert
• Re: surgery
• Re: yichus Slonim
• RE: Davenning re the wicked
• Avodah V4 #191
• Re: Problem Kids
• Re: Avodah = Hisbonenus
• Re: Mechiras Chameitz
• Re: Problem Kids
• Re: Minors and kiddush wine
• Re: Mechiras Chometz
• Re: Problem Kids
• Sociology of To'eivah
• Re: Sociology of To'eivah
• Re: problem kids
• Re: problem kids
• Re: problem kids
• Re: problem kids
• Re: problem kids
• Re[2]: Minors and kiddush wine

In Avodah V4 #191, SBA wrote:

>I recall years ago hearing him referred to as "Yoshkeh
>(sometimes even Yossele) Pondrek". Anyone have
>details/reasons (and, is *that* supposed to be Jewish?) ?

The halachik reasons for this are twofold
a) The Proverbs verse "May the name of the wicked rot" (Therefore
we don't mention the person but say THAT PERSON)

b) There shall not be the names of the gods of others on your lips
(Decalog Exodus 20)

Russell Hendel; Http://www.shamash.org/rashi/
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Shlomo Godick,

<< The way I usually put it is that the "standard of living" ("ramat
ha-chayim") is higher in the U.S., but the "quality of life" ("eichut
ha-chayim") is higher in Israel. >>

Nicely, put.
I find this conversation a little strange. It began with complaints about
the overdone weddings in the US and how parents are forced to spend beyond
their means by social pressures. It seems to have ended by stating that
the US has a higher standard of living because the weddings are fancier
and the cars are bigger!

Eli Turkel

Someone here the other day raised the issue of drinking on 
Simchas Torah. Forgetting for a minute the question of whether or 
not it is proper to put oneself into a drunken stupor, where is there 
a makor at all for drinking on Simchas Torah? For Purim there is a 
makor - there is the Gemara in the first perek of Megilla, but where 
is there a makor for Simchas Torah? 

I should hasten to add that:

1. I have never seen anyone drink on Simchas Torah in Eretz 
Yisrael (beyond Kiddush) other than Yom Tov Sheini minyanim - 
does that mean that the makor only applies in chu"l?

2. In Eretz Yisrael, we duchen at both Shachris and Musaf on 
Shmini Atzeres, in chu"l everyone I knew other than RYBS zt"l 
duchened at Shachris out of fear that the Kohanim would have a 
drink by the time Musaf rolled around. (The Rav zt"l was makpid 
that the Kohanim should not drink anything until after Musaf - I 
don't know if R. Schechter brings that because the book is at 
home, but growing up in Boston it was common knowledge that the 
Rav had that hakpada).

3. Where (if anywhere) is there a source for all of the disgusting 
things that go on in many shuls during Musaf on Simchas Torah in 
chu"l R"L. I have NEVER seen anything on Shmini Atzeres here 
(maybe because I only daven in Yeshivish places?) like what I saw 
in many shuls on Simchas Torah in chu"l.

I realize the conversation is a couple of months out of date, but 
Torah hi ulelomdo ani tzarich.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Shalom chevra,

Could anyone please give me the source & full explanation of why some
chassidim are particular not to eat fish with dairy?  Thanks. Mrs. G.
Atwood.

I heard it said severfal years ago that the mitzvo of drinking on Purim was 
DAVKA with wine, and that the minhog to use shnapps is a later practice etc.

Does "liv'sumei" indicate wine only?

If dvaka wine is indicated, could this realte to the arba koso of Cheirus on the
Seder night?

If that is true, would the fact that the original Taanis Esther was well as 
Homon's execution having occured on Pesach. be a source for celebrating Purim in
a Pesach'dikke manner? 

And if Purim is observed in a fashion parallel to Pesach - and if Hanukkah is 
parallel to Sukkos then we have anotehr possible pattern where in the 2  
drabbonon holidays have strong paralells in the Torah-based holidays.

With Purim on the 14t, it could coresponding to the 14th of Nissan.

And that might explain the minhog of starting the PUrim s'eudo at the  end of 
the day so as to continue into the night?!

And if I am wrong this is all Purim Torah! <smile>

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<snip>

Rebbe Nachman in Likutei Mehoran did teach that wine taken in measure, (with 
the right kavana of course)  can lead to kedusha but that wine taken without 
measure can lead to tumah.  I agree with those who spoke of setting an 
example of responsible drinking-  even on Purim we know when we've had 
enough.  On Pesach for the arba cosot I take half grape juice/half wine- 
it's a compromise. Wine is hidur but works out too much for my head :-) (of 
course, it's then less irritating when someone spills theirs...)

Lechayim..

Doesn't the gemoro relate to us that Amoraim would witness exeuctions of goyim 
and study theeir cadavers in order to better understand human anatomy?  I recall
seeing this in a article...

Rich Wolpoe 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<snip>

It seems to mean that what this story shows is that Chazon Ish learned 
anatomy from secular sources just like he learned math from secular sources. 
His puprpose was to increase his understanding of certain halachot. However, 
I know of no gemara that would have given Chazon Ish detailed knowledge of 
the inside of the brain.

Thus, I don't see how this storu proves anything about secular studies. 
At best it proves that a genius can read books on his own and acquire a
strong knowledge in secular fields without going to college and formally learnin
g
these subjects.

Eli Turkel

Q: Where does the Sriday Eish fall in?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

The first Slonim'er was R' Avraham (Yesod haAvodah), succeeded by his 
grandson R' Shmuel (Divrei Shmuel), who was succeeded by his sons R' 
Yissochor Leib and R' Avraham (Beis Avraham).

The Yesod haAvodah was a talmid of R' Moshe'le Kobrin'er (another talmid of 
his was Reb Chaim's maternal grandfather); both were talmidim of of R' Noach 
Lechevitch'er, who was talmid and son of R' Mordechai Lechevitch'er, who was 
a talmid of R' Shlomo Karlin'er (he brought Chassidus to Lithuania and 
Russia), who was a talmid of R"R Ber (the Mezeritch'er Magid, talmid and 
successor of the Baal Shem Tov).


Yaakov Schachter

While I don't believe this is a raayoh to anything, they do tell 
a story about (pretty sure it was) R' Akiva Eiger where he reminded 
a man who refused to give his wife a get that the mishna says 
"v'koneh as atzmah b'get uv'missas haball". The man still rudely 
refused and when he left the building , fell down the stairs and died.

kol tuv
Sender Baruch

Q: what is it about Homosexuality that makes the military so uptight?

My hypothesis is as follows:

We have made gender separation the norm in our society wrt rest-rooms, locker 
roomss etc. This is a boundary to allow people to feel safe about exposing their
private parts. The basic underlying assumption, is that one can feel free to 
expose themselves amongst their own gender w/o falling prey to desires from 
those of the ooppoiste gender.  IOW a man can feel SAFE from women in a men's 
room and vice-versa.

Homosexuality potentially undermines this hyptoehtical "safety zone".

It implies that when one disrobes in public - even amongs one's own gender  -one
may become the object of sometone's sexual desire, w/o consent.

As a father, I would feel a bit "threatened" if one of my kids were to 
innocently disrobe in a public washroom and be sexually desired by some 
stranger.  In a smae gender washroom, one would expect to be a ble to put their 
guard down. Open homexuality could put make this an awkward situation.  Then 
little kids would need to be chaperoned even with in same gender locker rooms,  
etc.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________



Psychosocially, there's a reason we pick on homosexuals more than we do, say, 
philanderers, tax cheats, and other fallen members of our community. I don't 
believe this reason has much to do with any hierarchy of sin in Torah. 
Perhaps Dr. Press could address this point as well.

David Finch

The Jewish Action article is available on the WWW.

Jewish Action  Summer 5759
What can a Parent do? Preventing Teenage Rebellion in your Family By Rabbi 
Yaakov Shapiro
http://www.ou.org/publications/ja/default.htm

I wrote:
: According to R' Aryeh Kaplan as well as contemporary Breslov practice, R' 
: Nachman defined "hisbonenus" to be meditative contemplation in particular. 
: This definition is vague enough to encompass anything from meditation to 
: Brisker lomdus.

Rich Wolpoe <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com> writes:
: Source please

Jewish Meditation pp 50-52.

: I thought that R. Nachman taught Hisbodedus
: while the Baal Hatanyo taught Hisbonenus.

Hisbodedus is given as isolation, any practice that brings on a meditative
state. Hisbonenus is self-understanding. To R' Kaplan, the aspaqlaria of
nevu'ah is a mirror. He does not, as I assumed, take the hitpa'el of binah
to mean causing oneself to understand.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 20-Dec-99: Levi, Vayechi
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 86b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Can one justify the value of the sale of chomeitz in terms of the opportunity
to sell it back later? Since the post-Pesach buy-back generally involves profit
to the non-Jew, why wouldn't he want to spend money to buy that opportunity
for a week later?

(I support an Equity Derivatives desk. We often buy real or synthetic futures.)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 20-Dec-99: Levi, Vayechi
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 86b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

the only catch is it is in abode.acrobat format.

>From: gil.student@citicorp.com
>Reply-To: avodah@aishdas.org
>To: avodah@aishdas.org
>Subject: Re: Problem Kids
>Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:15:16 -0500
>
>The Jewish Action article is available on the WWW.
>
>Jewish Action  Summer 5759
>What can a Parent do? Preventing Teenage Rebellion in your Family By Rabbi
>Yaakov Shapiro
>http://www.ou.org/publications/ja/default.htm
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

With all this discussion about whether drinking wine is good or not, we should 
note that there are pesukim that point both ways.  The Orchos Tzadikim (towards 
the beginning of Sha'ar HaSimchah) makes the obvious yishuv of these stirahs by 
explaining that wine in its appropriate context and dosages is good but 
otherwise is bad.

RD Eisenman wrote:

>>There is a well-circulated story about the Griz that he stayed up very late 
Erev Pesach going through all of his seforim to make sure there were no crumbs. 
I think it may even be mentioned in the Brisk hagaddah.>>

What I saw in the Brisker Haggadah (in the section on halachos of bedikas 
chometz) is that the Griz would ONLY check the sefarim he intended to use on 
Pesach.  He did not checki all of his other sefarim AND he also did not cover 
them or otherwise bar access to them.  I would guess that he was not worried 
about the chovas bedikah or bal yera'eh but that the crumbs might somehow fall 
into his food.  Personally, on Pesach I keep all sefarim away from the table.

I could not find a source where the Griz explicitly states that there is no 
chovas bedikah for less than a kezayis.  However, for a good summary of the 
issue see Dvar Shmuel to Pesachim 45a.

On 20 Dec 99, at 7:36, Alan Davidson wrote:

> the only catch is it is in abode.acrobat format.

You can download the reader for free from adobe.com (and all you 
need to read an article is the reader).

-- Carl

> >From: gil.student@citicorp.com
> >Reply-To: avodah@aishdas.org
> >To: avodah@aishdas.org
> >Subject: Re: Problem Kids
> >Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:15:16 -0500
> >
> >The Jewish Action article is available on the WWW.
> >
> >Jewish Action  Summer 5759
> >What can a Parent do? Preventing Teenage Rebellion in your Family By Rabbi
> >Yaakov Shapiro
> >http://www.ou.org/publications/ja/default.htm
> >
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> 


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

David Finch <DFinchPC@aol.com> writes:
: Psychosocially, there's a reason we pick on homosexuals more than we do, say, 
: philanderers, tax cheats, and other fallen members of our community. I don't 
: believe this reason has much to do with any hierarchy of sin in Torah. 

Vehar'aya: How do we as a community, respond to violators of "even va'aven",
another to'eivah. And l'fi Rashi (ad loc), the issur isn't even in using the
weights, but in just owning them!

Halevai we'd be as disgusted with business cheats, who (I presume) have far
less ta'avah to overcome than do m"z.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 20-Dec-99: Levi, Vayechi
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 86b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

On 20 Dec 99, at 10:50, Micha Berger wrote:

> Halevai we'd be as disgusted with business cheats, who (I presume) have far
> less ta'avah to overcome than do m"z.

You presume correctly. The Gemara in Chagiga says flat out that 
the taava for arayos is much worse than the taava for gzeila, 
because the taava for gzeila only exists when one has the 
opportunity, while the taava for arayos exists anytime. I suspect 
(no proof) that the reason why the Torah calls keeping weights like 
that around toeva is because it makes the taava for gzeila ever-
present.

OTOH, gzeila is not an issur skila, and can be corrected by 
hashovas ha'gzeila. While some arayos can be corrected by tshuva 
(including MZ), others result in meuvas lo yoochal liskone R"L. So 
there are halachic grounds for treating at least some arayos with 
more contempt.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Simcha Klagsbrun <S.Klagsbrun@WORLDNET.ATT.NET> quotes me and writes in v4n195:
:> Also, what percentage of graduates of dati leumi high schools come from
:> non-frum homes? IOW, what percentage of the 1 out of 5 was never really dati
:> to begin with?

: Really Dati?

: Hey, watch where you stick that  Frumometer!! You wouldn't want anyone using
: it on you now, would you?

I'd be content discussing what percentage of D"L HS students come from homes
that don't even identify themselves as D"L. In the US we have non-Orthodox
people who send their kids to Yeshiva because it's the closest fit, because
the public school system is abysmal, etc... To get these kids to leave the
Orthodox education system "only" involves a lack of kiruv.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 20-Dec-99: Levi, Vayechi
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 86b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

I don't think the "non-frum" kids infecting the "frum" kids are a major 
problem either.


>From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
>Reply-To: avodah@aishdas.org
>To: avodah@aishdas.org
>Subject: Re: problem kids
>Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:31:29 -0600 (CST)
>
>Simcha Klagsbrun <S.Klagsbrun@WORLDNET.ATT.NET> quotes me and writes in 
>v4n195:
>:> Also, what percentage of graduates of dati leumi high schools come from
>:> non-frum homes? IOW, what percentage of the 1 out of 5 was never really 
>dati
>:> to begin with?
>
>: Really Dati?
>
>: Hey, watch where you stick that  Frumometer!! You wouldn't want anyone 
>using
>: it on you now, would you?
>
>I'd be content discussing what percentage of D"L HS students come from 
>homes
>that don't even identify themselves as D"L. In the US we have non-Orthodox
>people who send their kids to Yeshiva because it's the closest fit, because
>the public school system is abysmal, etc... To get these kids to leave the
>Orthodox education system "only" involves a lack of kiruv.
>
>-mi
>
>--
>Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 20-Dec-99: Levi, Vayechi
>micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H
>http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 86b
>For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

On 20 Dec 99, at 11:11, Alan Davidson wrote:

> I don't think the "non-frum" kids infecting the "frum" kids are a major 
> problem either.

On what basis are you saying that (given that one of the basic 
assumptions that many schools make is that if we do not take kids 
who come from homes with x, y or z, the rest of the school will 
come out fruhm)? 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

never mind the TV test? I just think yeshivos (or Crown Heights or Boro Park 
and definitely not Flatbush) are the airtight vacuum-sealed containers folks 
make them out to be (or would like to assume they are).


>From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
>Reply-To: cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
>To: "Alan Davidson" <perzvi@hotmail.com>, avodah@aishdas.org
>Subject: Re: problem kids
>Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:19:03 +0200
>
>On 20 Dec 99, at 11:11, Alan Davidson wrote:
>
> > I don't think the "non-frum" kids infecting the "frum" kids are a major
> > problem either.
>
>On what basis are you saying that (given that one of the basic
>assumptions that many schools make is that if we do not take kids
>who come from homes with x, y or z, the rest of the school will
>come out fruhm)?
>
>-- Carl
>
>
>Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
>Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
>Telephone 972-2-625-7751
>Fax 972-2-625-0461
>mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
>mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
>
>Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
>Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
>Thank you very much.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

On 20 Dec 99, at 12:48, Alan Davidson wrote:

> never mind the TV test? I just think yeshivos (or Crown Heights or Boro Park 
> and definitely not Flatbush) are the airtight vacuum-sealed containers folks 
> make them out to be (or would like to assume they are).

Did you mean that they are NOT the airtight vacuum sealed 
containers etc.? 

I think you may have misunderstood my question. You said that 
you don't believe that non-fruhm kids "infecting" fruhm kids is a 
problem. Obviously, many schools believe that it IS a problem, and 
that's why they make litmus tests like does the mother cover her 
hair, is there a TV in the house, does the father work for a living, 
etc. On what basis do you say that there is no problem of "non-
fruhm" kids "infecting" "fruhm" kids?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

>>With all this discussion about whether drinking wine is good or not, we should
note that there are pesukim that point both ways.  The Orchos Tzadikim (towards 
the beginning of Sha'ar HaSimchah) makes the obvious yishuv of these stirahs by 
explaining that wine in its appropriate context and dosages is good but 
otherwise is bad.<<

Now isn't that true about almost everything in life?

Rich Wolpoe

*********************


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