Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 198

Sunday, December 19 1999

• Re: Minors and kiddush wine
• Re: Lechaim - Humor Alert
• Re: personal feelings
• Toeva
• Re: Techiyas HaMaysim - humour alert
• Re: Plea re Mishkav Zachor Postings
• Re: Top Ten List
• Re: Mesarving on the Internet
• Re: Tur BY
• Davenning re the wicked
• Re: Reb Shlomo Carlebach and Carlebach minyanim
• Re: Techiyas HaMaysim - humour alert
• Problem kids
• Oso ha-Ish
• yichus Slonim
• surgery
• Re: surgery
• Flood Redux
• Re: Problem kids
• Re: surgery
• Re: Marava
• A Charedi Joke

In a message dated 12/17/99 8:53:50 AM US Central Standard Time, 
gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

<< The fact that goyim drink like,  well,  a goy,  is not at issue.  The
 point is that the drinking has no religious component.  The refreshments
 are not part of the celebration,  but incidental to it.  The proper
 analogy would be abuse of sacramental wine or,  lehavdil elef alfei
 havdolos,  kiddush or havdolo. >>

You're right, although the wine as well as the wafer make the Communion. I 
suppose Communion-wine abuse isn't a big problem in the Church. There are, 
however, learned Catholics who would argue that the prominent role played by 
liquor at, say, an Irish wake has sacramental as well as sentimental value.

We haven't talked much about the role of liquor -- of actual drunkenness -- 
at Purim or Simchas Torah. I don't object to it, actually. A story: My 
father, born in Russia and brought to this country at the age of eight or so, 
had his Thursday-morning bar mitzvah with his family in Omaha. The year was 
1927. My grandfather, a seller of used burlap farmers' bags who more or less 
lived at the shul, celebrated the event by pulling out several very, very 
dear bottles of pre-World War I bonded hooch, the real stuff. He poured out 
shots to members of the minyan, who hadn't tasted such ambrosia in years. My 
grandfather usually didn't drink much, but he drank a lot that day. A 
celebration to be remembered. A lot grander, in fact, than the $50,000.00 
extravaganzas that are routine staged around bar mitzvahs nowadays.

David Finch

Subject: Lechaim - Humor Alert


> Im lo aaleh es yerusholoyim on rosh simchosi
>
> Obviously the depressing alcohol is to inhibt too much Simcho  so -
zeicher
> lechurban - we make a lechaim to depress ourselves appropriately
>
> Rich Wolpoe

"Many a true word was said in jest" !
We're VERY makpid on a lechayim between fish and meat. Tullamore is the
drink of choice but Akiva does make a very fine pear liqueur.. The oldest
kids get a sip. Literally.  For kiddush most of them prefer grape juice.

Rebbe Nachman in Likutei Mehoran did teach that wine taken in measure, (with
the right kavana of course)  can lead to kedusha but that wine taken without
measure can lead to tumah.  I agree with those who spoke of setting an
example of responsible drinking-  even on Purim we know when we've had
enough.  On Pesach for the arba cosot I take half grape juice/half wine-
it's a compromise. Wine is hidur but works out too much for my head :-) (of
course, it's then less irritating when someone spills theirs...)

Lechayim..

. How he paskens is determined by the weight he gives to various factors,

Agreed.  How are we defining feelings here? In the case of gedolim one would
assume that these factors are generally assessed by the intellect-  they're
related to the depth of knowledge and understanding of each factor, and the
awareness of how many  factors  involved.  Variation can exist here even
before any subjectivity colours the picture- we expect this latter to be
minimized in the case of a gadol.  I'm not saying that gedolim aren't ever
subject to subconscious/emotional influences and prejudices and feelings but
that we should not assume that these are signficant factors in the process
of reaching a psak unless we know for sure otherwise.  Mrs. GA



>

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.

----- Original Message -----
From: <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com>
To: <DFinchPC@aol.com>; <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 4:33 PM
Subject: Re[2]:


> Correction:
> The act is a TO'IE'VO
>
> Certainly the ACT is a tei'ovon - the Torah says so.
> <snip>
>
> Rich Wolpoe

You're both right.  "Toeva" is an abomination. "Tei'ovon" and related words
imply desire.  Different roots & not synonyms  but both are applicable in
this case.
>
>
>
>
>
>

>
> R' Bannett told over a story in R' Helperin's name, about a man who had
> no heart action or breathing, but was then revived. <<< He goes home to
> discover that, by the halakha of these RW rabbis, he is no longer
> married.

I think we have the beginnings of a solution to the Agunah problem.....
GA

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.

----- Original Message -----
From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Cc: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 6:35 AM
Subject: Plea re Mishkav Zachor Postings


> Folks, I do not know how it goes in your homes, but in mine, my kids see
me
> reading the e-mail and they occasionally use e-mail themselves. Avodah,
> therefore, should be a family-friendly forum, adhering to the most prudish
> standards of expression prevalent in our community. While I personally
find
> the recent thread on Mishkav Zachor perplexing and unnecessary, at the
very
> least, can we please watch our expression - partcularly in our subject
> lines. Remember the Rambam's definition of "Lashon Ha'Kodesh"! Please use
> the term "mishkav zachor", not the alternative. And, yishma chochom
v'yosif
> lekach.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Of course RYGB is right here in essence.  From the point of view of strict
definition we could use initials HOS as opposed to MZ, (though we know the
former usually, not always, implies the latter. ) Loshon nakiah and
discretion, and also minimizing such kinds of discussion in an open forum -
my hearty approval.  We don't have to use an English term- prudery.
Sensitivity in relating to such issues would perhaps fall under the geder of
tahara. What do you think? Yes, these people have serious problems, societal
and possibly psychological. How can we really help with our discussions on
Avodah?

 Here is my list:
>
> 1. The Rambam
> 2.  Rashi
> 3.  R. Yosef Caro
> 4.  R. Moses Isserles
> 5.  The Vilna Gaon
> 6.  The Baal Shem Tov
> 7.  R. Chaim Volozhiner
> 8.  R. Chaim Soloveichik
> 9.  R. Aharon Kotler
> 10. R. Joseph B. Soloveitchik     (HM)

About two thirds of these, plus Rav Moshe Chaim Luzzato,  Arizal,  Rav
Shneur Zalman of Liadi,  Rav S.R. Hirsch,  & Rebbe Nachman of Breslov of
course.  Who's counting? <g>

 So, please -- any ideas how we can set up a legitimate Agunah/Missing
spouse
> site with reasonable oversight?
>
> Shoshana Boublil (the opinions are mine)

Sounds good!  Probably a good idea to ask a couple of Rebbeim to agree to
have their names as a "haskamah" to each mesarev- perhaps a phone number for
further verification if sought.  behatzlacha & shavua tov.

> On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Eli Turkel wrote:
>
> > I am not sure where it comes from that it was written beruach hakoseh.
> > I have only seen that that R. Karo learned Mishna with an angel which is
> > not the same.
>
> I believe that was the proof that it was written b'ruach ha'kodesh.

I learned from one of my teachers of Tanya, Rabbi Moshe Miller, that there
are five main levels of ru'ach hakodesh  including learning from an angel.

IMHO, from a rational point of view,  if something is worth learning because
it was written by ruach hakodesh it is davka worth learning b'hisbonenus
rather than breakneck bekius.  I don't completely understand why Rebbe
Nachman would recommend the latter.
However, our memory is a highly remarkable faculty. We know from experiments
with hypnotism that a great deal of information goes into the subconscious
mind. When a person is in a heightened state of consciousness they can then
reach these stores and can then make associations using all that
information, and reach a new level of understanding and appreciation of the
material absorbed. Even he never reaches such a state, the information is
not necessarily lost, and does have an influence on his general thought
processes and hashkafah, though then iyun would seem preferable.
Just a theory.  It's not traditional learning, and I'm sure many of you will
not be happy with it,  but it would be interesting to know overall how it
affects the frumkeit of people who only practise this method-  though most
Breslovers we know learn with more conventional shitos.

Btw-  difference between hisbonenus & hisbodedus-
Former is, as mentioned, a kind of iyun-  a delving of the mind into
concepts. In the Tanya it is often used in reference to contemplating the
greatness of G-d (see Tanya ch. 4). Hisbodedus is very different.  It is
essentially a tefilla- a monologue in the native tongue of the speaker,
addressed to haKadosh Baruch hu.   Mrs. G. Atwood.


>

In an earlier post I objected to the idea that we daven for the death of the
mesarev, instead taking Beruriah's apparent position of davenning for their
tshuva.  Now, according to "hakol bidei shamayim chutz miyiras shamaim"-
fatal circumstances can be arranged from on high but not bechira.So we can
ask- how can we daven for someone to do tshuva? How can any tefilla
affect bechira?

There are, however, circumstances which humble and break a person, cut him
off from society,  and precipitate a crisis which may bring him to a
potential
turning point. He still has the choice,   he can persist in his foolishness
or he can capitulate- even do complete tshuva.  Is this not perhaps the
loshon & intent of "al hamalshinim"?
"Risha"-  wickedness itself should be lost,  but the person should be
brought down to rock bottom.  "al tehi tikva" may refer to his evil designs
and their monetary reward rather than his personal absolute demise.
We're asking Hashem to arrange the circumstances beyond our own
effectiveness, though, of course, we're taking all appropriate action - or
should be.  Mrs. G.A.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*

btw to avoid having to read 10 straight posts of yours truly,  you can
easily sort by subject (most e mail programs let you do this with one click)
with several useful benefits:

a-   you  reach the end of each thread relatively quickly without having to
read the whole day's posts-  then you reply.  (Of course,  you then find the
thread has continued under a different name later on... )
b-  you can delete or ignore unwanted threads easily before viewing.
c- prolific posters are spread out relatively evenly and may therefore be
more palatable when you see us again.  <g>
===================================================

Re: Reb Shlomo Carlebach and Carlebach minyanim


> As the author is my hero, I stand by his words. I am not sure what this
has
> to do with the Carlebach heading, however.

Not much!  I'm sure the earlier poster will enlighten us.
>
> Be that as it may, I believe Breslov, for all their emphasis on
hisbodedus,
> is superficial as the rest. In Sha'alvim, i once witnessed the tragic
> descent of one of the brightest member of our shiur into Breslover
> Chassidus. From a brilliant analytical approach he ended up learning Tur
> Beis Yosef large amounts of time because the Beis Yosef was written
b'ruach
> hakodesh.
>
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
>
If you measure depth and superficiality by the extent of engagement in
analytical discussion,  I hear your point, but in all due respect, and to my
pain,  it seems that you are missing ours.
Fine-  we value the contribution of such thinking and many chassidim are in
agreement about the importance of chochma, bina & da'as. If you do ever
peruse a volume of Likutei Mehoran and study the translation and notes you
will see a discussion of spiritual matters which in themselves are far from
superficial.
Rather than judge the apparent descent of the member of your shiur in
relation to his previous acumen, perhaps you could look deeper-  ask
yourself WHY such a brilliant student changed his derech and what he
achieved in terms of his yiras shamayim, his menshlichkeit, and his real
avodah in this world. Better still, ask him.
Please understand-  I'm not attacking you here, I'm inviting you into
relatively unexplored territory for your own ultimate good. You are welcome
to bring all your analytical talents with you :-)
 Mrs. G. Atwood.

In a message dated 12/18/99 7:10:44 PM US Central Standard Time, 
gatwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< 
 > R' Bannett told over a story in R' Helperin's name, about a man who had
 > no heart action or breathing, but was then revived. <<< He goes home to
 > discover that, by the halakha of these RW rabbis, he is no longer
 > married.
  >>

This in an ancient fantasy, current especially in places like Las Vegas. 
Believe me, he's still married, and he ought to remember it.

David Finch

Special high schools are all fine and well but isn't 17 too late in many 
cases and does this really address the structural issues
involved?  (Those who know me know I'm a Sociologist).  This past week in 
Flatbush, there was a 19 year old boy raised in a frum household who died of 
a heroin overdose and one of my neighborhood shuls which has a Friday night 
program for alienated kids from frum backgrounds (some have re-entered 
yeshiva, some haven't -- some still live with their families, some don't) 
had Rav Aaron Twerski speak to both the kids and a good number of parents 
last evening and he said you have to view these sorts of situations as an 
Eglah Arufah (we are all ultimately to blame according to Torah).  Sure 
there are "problem parents", "problem kids", even "problem Rabbonim" in some 
of the yeshivos but the issue is broader than that -- does every bochur who 
ever wishes to get married need to learn in Lakewood or Mir or Chaim Berlin 
or Torah VaDaas until their early 20's -- or is this a goal which while 
lofty, not all kids are cut out for (emotionally and in some cases 
aptitude-wise) and shouldn't be pressured towards? The other evening 
somebody even joked to me that I should purchase a round-trip bus fare to 
Lakewood in order to be able to say I was in Lakewood -- It might sound 
facetious but this is the sort of stuff that goes on.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

In Avodah V4 #191, SBA wrote:

>I recall years ago hearing him referred to as "Yoshkeh
>(sometimes even Yossele) Pondrek". Anyone have
>details/reasons (and, is *that* supposed to be Jewish?) ?

Yes, it is Jewish; is is a Yiddish rendition of the name "bar Pondira", one
of the less-than-favored figures in gemara that the Xian character of oso
ha-ish (if he existed) was was based on.


Yaakov Schachter

I'm sorry it took so long to get all the info:

The first Slonim'er was R' Avraham (Yesod haAvodah), succeeded by his
grandson R' Shmuel (Divrei Shmuel), who was succeeded by his sons R'
Yissochor Leib and R' Avraham (Beis Avraham).

The Yesod haAvodah was a talmid of R' Moshe'le Kobrin'er (another talmid of
his was Reb Chaim's maternal grandfather); both were talmidim of of R' Noach
Lechevitch'er, who was talmid and son of R' Mordechai Lechevitch'er, who was
a talmid of R' Shlomo Karlin'er (he brought Chassidus to Lithuania and
Russia), who was a talmid of R"R Ber (the Mezeritch'er Magid, talmid and
successor of the Baal Shem Tov).


Yaakov Schachter

> 
> Last motzei Shabbos, as part of his explanation as to why secular
> studies are unnecessary and a waste of time, a student at Marava told me
> that the Chazon Ish (or perhaps the Steipler -- my informant was not sure)
> personally, physically guided the hands of a surgeon as the surgeon
> performed brain surgery.  The surgery, of course, was successful.  Does
> anyone know of a reliable source for this story?
> 
The story is that Chazon Ish drew pictures of brain surgery for a surgeon.
He certainly did not personally guide the hands of the surgeon.

It seems to mean that what this story shows is that Chazon Ish learned
anatomy from secular sources just like he learned math from secular sources.
His puprpose was to increase his understanding of certain halachot. However,
I know of no gemara that would have given Chazon Ish detailed knowledge of
the inside of the brain.

Thus, I don't see how this storu proves anything about secular studies.
At best it proves that a genius can read books on his own and acquire a
strong knowledge in secular fields without going to college and formally learning
these subjects.

Eli Turkel

On 19 Dec 99, at 11:33, Eli Turkel wrote:

> > 
> > Last motzei Shabbos, as part of his explanation as to why secular
> > studies are unnecessary and a waste of time, a student at Marava told me
> > that the Chazon Ish (or perhaps the Steipler -- my informant was not sure)
> > personally, physically guided the hands of a surgeon as the surgeon
> > performed brain surgery.  The surgery, of course, was successful.  Does
> > anyone know of a reliable source for this story?
> > 
> The story is that Chazon Ish drew pictures of brain surgery for a surgeon.
> He certainly did not personally guide the hands of the surgeon.

Artscroll has it as a cardiac surgery, but I think that the point is the 
same. See Pages 202-212 in their biography of the Chazon Ish.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In the current (Dec.) issue of the JO there is a piece by someone writing
under the nom de plume of "Yud Pnini" which strenuously protests, albeit
without identifying the author or the periodical explicitly, the essay by R'
Shubert Spero in Tradition about the Mabul that we discussed here at length.
"Heretical nonsense" is one of the terms used.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

On 18 Dec 99, at 19:21, Alan Davidson wrote:

> Special high schools are all fine and well but isn't 17 too late in many 
> cases and does this really address the structural issues
> involved?  (Those who know me know I'm a Sociologist).  

I think you're right. Having special Yeshivas for 17-21 year olds is 
better than nothing, but it addresses the symptom and not the 
problem. My recollection of the Jewish Action article I read over the 
summer (I've lent it out and I haven't tracked down the Jewish 
Observer yet) is that if kids go off the derech R"L, the ages at 
which they are most at risk are 13, 14 and maybe 15. 

This past week in 
> Flatbush, there was a 19 year old boy raised in a frum household who died of 
> a heroin overdose 

Hashem Yerachem....

and one of my neighborhood shuls which has a Friday night 
> program for alienated kids from frum backgrounds (some have re-entered 
> yeshiva, some haven't -- some still live with their families, some don't) 

Are there any kind of drop in centers for the kids in the US? In 
Israel, we have drop in centers that cater to kids who want to leave 
fruhmkeit R"L, and I think someone runs a drop in center along the 
beach in Tel Aviv for kids who are interested in becoming fruhm.

> had Rav Aaron Twerski speak to both the kids and a good number of parents 
> last evening and he said you have to view these sorts of situations as an 
> Eglah Arufah (we are all ultimately to blame according to Torah).  Sure 
> there are "problem parents", "problem kids", even "problem Rabbonim" in some 
> of the yeshivos but the issue is broader than that -- does every bochur who 
> ever wishes to get married need to learn in Lakewood or Mir or Chaim Berlin 
> or Torah VaDaas until their early 20's -- or is this a goal which while 
> lofty, not all kids are cut out for (emotionally and in some cases 
> aptitude-wise) and shouldn't be pressured towards? 

The problem with that kind of approach is that it tends to absolve 
everyone. It's everyone's fault and therefore it's no one's fault. Keep 
in mind that with the egla arufa, at the end of the day, the Beis Din 
itself went and asked for Kapara on behalf of the city's residents. 
The analogy today would be for our leaders (note - I did not specify 
Rabbinic leaders - see below) to try to reverse the trends that make 
kids in the fruhm community feel inadequate if they are not brilliant 
talmidei chachamim (BTW - how does this explain the girls?). 

In my experience, the Gdolim demonstrate a lot more 
understanding of not every kid being cut out to be a gadol baTorah 
than do a lot of the lay "leaders." Often the societal pressure 
seems to come more from the followers than from the leaders. 
Often the leaders are pushed into saying the things that the 
followers want to hear. I can't get into a lot of specifics without 
going into things I have heard off the record, but I know this is true. 

There are many programs for kids who are not cut out to sit and 
shteig forever. But what happens to kids who go to those 
programs? Who tells the other kids in the neighborhood to 
ostracize them? Who tells the other kids in the neighborhood that 
they're a bad influence, which then becomes a self-fulfilling 
prophecy?

Cf. the Meiri in Arvei Psachim on the origin of "zugos."

IMHO the most important point in a child's life in terms of 
determining whether or not they will remain fruhm, is where you 
send them to high school, a decision that is made around their 
bar/bat mitzva. How many eighth grade Rebbeim/Moros realize the 
enormity of that responsibility? How many give recommendations 
that are inappropriate because they don't care? Or because they 
want the elementary school to look good?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In a message dated 12/19/99 4:33:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
turkel@math.tau.ac.il writes:

<< 
 The story is that Chazon Ish drew pictures of brain surgery for a surgeon.
 He certainly did not personally guide the hands of the surgeon.
 
 It seems to mean that what this story shows is that Chazon Ish learned
 anatomy from secular sources just like he learned math from secular sources.
 His puprpose was to increase his understanding of certain halachot. However,
 I know of no gemara that would have given Chazon Ish detailed knowledge of
 the inside of the brain. >>
Interesting. When I heard the story told it was to make the point that tora 
w/o mada was just fine because if you succeeded at tora then if you needed 
info like this- sod hashem lyireav would provide it (or you would intuit the 
information from gemara's gematrias or some "pure" tora source).

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

--- "Zuckerman, Jeffrey I." <JZuckerman@CM-P.COM>
wrote:
> 	Last motzei Shabbos, as part of his explanation as
> to why secular
> studies are unnecessary and a waste of time, a
> student at Marava told me
> that the Chazon Ish (or perhaps the Steipler -- my
> informant was not sure)
> personally, physically guided the hands of a surgeon
> as the surgeon
> performed brain surgery.  The surgery, of course,
> was successful.  Does
> anyone know of a reliable source for this story?

What a coincidence! I performed the very same surgery
on a dear friend last night.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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At a difficult moment at the 3rd international conference
on Science and Religion, one of the presenters flashed
a picture of Charles Darwin (author of the theory of
evolution) and said

---You see he has a beard, black hat and long coat
---How bad can he be?

(I thought the Charediites might enjoy the above)

Russell
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*********************


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