Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 192

Thursday, December 16 1999

• Gemara question
• Chumash question
• Re[2]: Avodah V4 #188
• Re[2]: Avodah V4 #187
• RE: Minors and kiddush wine
• Re: Mechiras Chometz
• Re: Minors and kiddush wine (V4#191)
• Re: Minors and kiddush wine
• Women and others at funerals
• Mishkav
• RE: Agunot and Pruzbel
• Re: Avodah V4 #191
• RE: Minors and kiddush wine
• Re: Requests
• Re: Avodah V4 #191
• consideration for your fellow-human
• Re: Women and others at funerals
• Re: what LN is and what it isn't
• mechiras chometz
• mechiras chometz
• Re: Minors and kiddush wine
• Re: mechiras chometz
• Re[2]: Minors and kiddush wine
• RE: mechiras chometz

	Again on Rashi,  here in the Gemara.  The Gemara brings the gezera shava
of "veshov hakohen uva hakohen",  to prove the equivalence of the two
terms, any number of times.  Twice Rashi comments on it:  in Eruvin Rashi
goes into a long explanation of tzara'as habayis and how the gezera shava
teaches you what it teaches you.  In one other place (sorry,  forgot and
no CD at work) Rashi says "yafeh pirashtiha bemeseches eruvin". Does
anyone know of anyplace else where Rashi  either references another place
(as Tosfos do so often) or, so to speak,  gives himself a haskama?

Gershon

	Rashi comments on the posuk "maharu va'alu el ovi" that Eretz Yisrael is
higher than all other lands.  Why did Rashi wait until here to say that? 
When Avrohom Ovinu came from Mitzraim to Eretz Yisrael,  it uses the
loshon "vaya'al Avrom mimitzraim".  Rashi describes the aliya in terms of
north-south.  More recently,  Yaakov told the brothers to "go down" to
Mitzraim,  the Torah describes their trip to Mitzraim as a yerida,  Yosef
told the brothers "alu lesholom el avichem" at the end of Miketz,  Yehuda
says "ki ech e'eleh el ovi". 

	Rashi certainly had ample opportunity to make this observation
previously.  Why did he wait until now?

Gershon

Perhaps Netivya or Taavo for Mishkav Zachor would cover all the bases?



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<snip>
I must take strong exception to Rabbi YGB's request, despite my great 
respect for him.  Homosexuality is NOT Mishkav Zachar and that is precisely 
why the correct term must be used.  Some people with homosexual inclinations 
engage in mishkav zachar, and many frum ones do not.  Mishkav zachar is a 
chiyuv misah, homosexuality is not.

I'm not convinced the 2 are mutually exclusive.

I suspect a lot of spirtual Kabbalah is very much related to emotions and psyche
- only a differnt set of terminology

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Actually, I don't think that children not attending funerals in 
Yerushalayim has anything to do with unfortunate incidents. I think 
it has to do with a kabbalah that R. Eli Turkel alluded to earlier.

>     I think the whole question of drinking "l'chayim" at the 
> shul kiddush and 
> the poor example it sets for our children needs to be 
> examined. Any takers?

Dr Twersky speaks out against it *very* strongly.

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood                 
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274  

RKG Miller wrote:

>>I do not know *which* pots have chometz stuck to them. I do not know how
*much* chometz is stuck to them. I do not know what *kinds* of chometz is
stuck to them. The only thing I am sure of, is that the market value of
all that chometz put together is most likely less than a pruta, and
surely less than the value of the time spent looking for it!>>

I think that as long as each piece is less than a kezayis then according to 
all poskim there is no issur of bal yera'eh and according to many there is 
no chiyuv bi'ur or bedikah.  I believe that the Chazon Ish was machmir WRT 
bedikah that all crumbs have to be removed (and therefore pots have to be 
sold) but according to the Griz there is no chiyuv bedikah on anything that 
is less than a kezayis.  I'm saying this with uncertainty because it's been 
a while since I've seen this inside.

"I think the whole question of drinking "l'chayim" at the 
shul kiddush and the poor example it sets for our children
needs to be examined. Any takers?"

What precisely is this poor example we are setting?

FWIW, I have  a non-frum relative who told me that
1) that having grown up with Kiddush wine that was served to minors
2) and observing Jewish families consume wine/shnapps in moderation

combinede to de-mystify alchol and actually make it LESS likely to become abused

IOW since Booze was not taboo, but used with respect and care, it was no big 
deal

Rich Wolpoe

PS to David I will furnish you WHO this is offlist cause you probably know him


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Minors and kiddush wine 

Most jurisdictions allow, either by statute or local enforcement custom, that 
wine can be given to minors for "sacramental" purposes. I believe, though i 
am not sure, that there was a similar exemption in the Volstead Act during 
prohibition. Of coirse, the exception does not extend to the single-malt 
scotch being served.
    I think the whole question of drinking "l'chayim" at the shul kiddush and 
the poor example it sets for our children needs to be examined. Any takers?
    David I. Cohen

In Avodah V4 #187, Akiva Miller wrote:

> . . . If I remember correctly,
>this sort of minhag prevents children from attending the burial of their
>own parents, according to the minhagim of Yerushalayim.

>I think it is important to remember that a minhag is in a very different
>category than other halachos.

> . . . Those people, generations back, saw some sort of wisdom in
>keeping those people away from the burial, and they accepted this as a
>minhag upon themselves and their descendants.


This and other posts combine three separate minhagim:
- Women at burials;
- Expectant women at funerals;
- Sons at their fathers' burials.

The first is minhag of certain individual communities, based on kabala.

The second is a more wide-spread minhag (as suggested other posts), based
also on Gemaras and other early sources which suggest damage may result in
the meeting between one being coming into life and one leaving it; or
between a high form of kedusha (the unborn child learning pure Tora) and a
high degree of tuma.

The third, based on explicit kabala-related concerns, is called "minhag
Yerushalayim" but is also a takanas Chasam Sofer (that's how it got to
Yerushalayim), it is mentioned in Teshuvos R' Akiva Eger, and is referred to
as "Cherem Yehoshua bin Nun".


Yaakov Schachter

If we're on the subject of the proper way of saying it, it is not "Mishkav
Zachor", which would mean a perverse kind of memorial.

Even though "Mishkav Zachar" would seem logically, circumstantially, and
grammatically right, the correct term is "Mishkav Zachur", the second word
being an adjective describing the act, not a noun as the subject or
perpetrator of the act. The source is, I believe Succa 29.


Yaakov Schachter

> Finally, we find two places in Torah where Moshe Rabeynu is petitioned
> by those who felt disenfranchised by the halokhe: The t'meyim l'nefesh
> odom by pesakh sheyni and the bnoys tselofkhod. Both use the same
> powerful words 'lomo nigora?' and both are successful in 
> their petition
> and the law is changes to accommodate them. This alone should tell us
> something.

But *who* changed the law? Moshe, on his own accord? No.

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood                 
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274  

In a message dated 12/15/99 9:58:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

> Dr. Press you raise an interesting point.
>  Homosexuality in the orthodox community  is virtually
>  ignored by the Orthodox media.  It's kind of swept
>  under the carpet as a public issue.  How pervasive is
>  it in the Frum community?  When I lived in Yeshiva
>  dorms in High school and college, whether it was
>  Telshe or HTC, there were always rumors about certain
>  people being homosexual.  Is it a greater problem then
>  we are led to believe? What percentage of the orthodox
>  community is Homosexual? How many are men? women? what
>  do the numbers look like?  should we be discussing
>  this problem in a more open forum?  Can a community do
>  anything to help? Or, is it just a problem to be dealt
>  with on an individual basis, discretely in the privacy
>  of a Dr.s office on a case by case basis?
>
One of the reasons for not publicizing these issue in media etc.. where Yad
Hakol M'mashmishin Boh, is once something is brought out in the open it may
soif kol soif trickle down to someone that was able to be Goveir (in what
ever way) on his YH of MZ (Tartei Mashma Machshovo Zara and the other one),
and say oh I am not the only one etc. It is known that many frum people
think
long and hard before sending their boys to a dorm, Bnosof that good
Dormitories will make sure that there are more then 2 beds in a room (even
though Ein Apotrupus).

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

------------------------------
It was for this reason that Raz Yisroel Meir HaCohen TZK"L ZY"A did not
allow the construction of a dorm in Radin. Perhaps R' Avigdor Miller was
accurate when he expressed the thought that despite our belief to the
contrary, this generation is not the first generation to discover all forms
of bodily perversion, but it is the first generation that THINKS it is the
first generation to discover these perversions.
If my labeling of Mishkav Zachar as a perversion is offensive, please direct
your complaints to the One who labeled it as such. As an unsophisticated
ba'al bayis, I have to go by the text.
In the interest of Kavod HaTorah, perhaps we can honor Rabbi YG Bechhoffer's
request while still maintaining articulated accuracy by referring to this
Avaira as mishkav zochor and the inclination to do so as the taivah of
mishkav zachor.

Simcha Klagsbrun

> 
> combinede to de-mystify alchol and actually make it LESS 
> likely to become abused

Rabbi Dr. Twersky would probably argue on that point very strongly.



===========================
Akiva Atwood                 
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274  

I think that despite MPress's erudite dsticntions the higher good is to do "azov
taazov imo" i.e. to help a chover who simply requests our co-operation.

Is it emes to make a valid intelleuctal hair-split at the expense of making 
someone suffer?!

Rich W.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Mishkav Zachor 

They do not see the text. I ask, and continue to ask, that you change the 
headings.


Thank You,
YGB

-----------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:07:55 EST
From: BDCOHEN613@aol.com
Subject: Minors and kiddush wine

Akiva Miller wrote:
<<< I would suggest that it is mutar to serve alcohol to minors in
situations
    which are similarly ignored by the civil authorities. The Vice Squad is
    quite aware that we serve kiddush wine to the children not only at home
    but even in public places such as shul, and they ignore it even there.

    This could even apply to a Seudas Purim where entire families are
    present, but not to a teen-oriented Purim Party, which is an example of
a
    situation which we know the authorities to be makpid on.

    Any lawyers want to add a more professional opinion?>>>>

Most jurisdictions allow, either by statute or local enforcement custom,
that
wine can be given to minors for "sacramental" purposes. I believe, though i
am not sure, that there was a similar exemption in the Volstead Act during
prohibition. Of coirse, the exception does not extend to the single-malt
scotch being served.
    I think the whole question of drinking "l'chayim" at the shul kiddush
and
the poor example it sets for our children needs to be examined. Any takers?
    David I. Cohen

------------------------------

End of Avodah V4 #191
*********************
Exactly how is the consumption of a reasonable portion of an adult beverage
by a responsible adult in celebration of a Simcha or for oneg shabbos a bad
example for youngsters? I would like my children to know that these are
exactly the purposes for which the ribbono shel olem gave us alcohol.
There is an old yiddish expression: ah goy is b'simcha vile ehr drankt. ah
yid drankt vile ehr is b'simcha.
By consuming alcoholic bevrages responsibly and appropriatly we can teach
our children the difference.

Simcha Klagsbrun

(trying to find an appropriate and relevant header, re RYGB's request)

[I don't fully understand his request, but believe he's entitled to have
us try to honor it.  I'm confused, does your son simply eyeball the
headers or does he read the posts?]


In digest #191:


> ...And, whilst we're on a humor alert, and still on the Mishkav Zochor
> topic, a politically incorrect (very old) joke - Heard of the
> exclusively homosexual Jewish cemetery in San Francisco?
> 
> - - It's called "Gay in Der Erd"...

Some years ago I witnessed a pulpit rabbi make a joke to that effect.  A
member of the congregation who had a relative who had recently died of
AIDS spoke to him privately afterwards.  The following Shabbos, he
apologized from the pulpit.

> That's almost as bad as the joke about the Chabad Shaliach who when
> asked by a goy if he was amish responded "yes I am Hamish."

Naw, that's cute!  (Remember the scene in "Witness"?)

> One of the reasons for not publicizing these issue in media etc. where
> Yad Hakol M'mashmishin Boh, is once something is brought out in the
> open it may soif kol soif trickle down to someone that was able to be
> Goveir (in what ever way) on his YH of MZ (Tartei Mashma Machshovo
> Zara and the other one), and say oh I am not the only one etc.

By now we may think that most gay people know they aren't the only one,
but isn't it cruel to try to deny someone the relief of knowing he isn't
the only one?

> It is known that many frum people think long and hard before sending
> their boys to a dorm, Bnosof that good Dormitories will make sure that
> there are more then 2 beds in a room (even though Ein Apotrupus).

Never thought of > 2 roommates... good idea.

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu
"Call on God, but row away from the rocks"

On 16 Dec 99, at 18:36, Jerry Schachter wrote:

> In Avodah V4 #187, Akiva Miller wrote:
> 
> > . . . If I remember correctly,
> >this sort of minhag prevents children from attending the burial of their
> >own parents, according to the minhagim of Yerushalayim.
> 
> >I think it is important to remember that a minhag is in a very different
> >category than other halachos.
> 
> > . . . Those people, generations back, saw some sort of wisdom in
> >keeping those people away from the burial, and they accepted this as a
> >minhag upon themselves and their descendants.
> 
> 
> This and other posts combine three separate minhagim:
> - Women at burials;
> - Expectant women at funerals;
> - Sons at their fathers' burials.
> 
> The first is minhag of certain individual communities, based on kabala.

Where is this kabala brought down and what does it say? I always 
understood this one to be based on a maaseh shehaya that I think 
is even brought in the Gemara.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In Avodah 4#191, ABerger replied:
>> Seems to me (and I invite correction!)... <<
> When I was in 10th grade and we were studying a sugya in Kesubos about
Oness, a student used the term "rape". The rebbi corrected him, and said we
use the term "oness". Even though Oness ultimately denotes rape, it is a
cleaner loshon. <
Perhaps that's because "ohnais" is a LN for what actually occurred.  Sorry
to be repetitive, but "mishkav zochor" is not, nor will it ever be, a LN
for the subject in question -- it's the definitive term for a prohibited
action that a male, whatever his proclivities/tendencies/etc., might engage
in.  I trust that this point has been sufficiently made and that
RYGBechhofer did not mean to accuse DrMPress of not using LN, as might be
understood from his words (that MBerger defended, with my reply being a
response to Micha), so let's move on to matters of more importance.
Thanks.

All the best (including a great Shabbos!) from

                                         Michael

> From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
> Subject: Re: mechirat chametz

<< I think people do assume that the Chametz will be repurchased, 
> although I do know of Rabbanim (and I think my shver used to do 
> this when he had a shtellar in the States) who tell the congregants 
> to wait an hour and a half or two hours after Yom Tov ends to give 
> the Rav a chance to buy it back.>>

	I have heard from a choshuveh Rov (whose permission I do not have to
quote him) that he does not allow pizza shops,  bakeries,  etc. under his
hashgacha to open motzoei Yom tov for this reason.  

	Not too many people rush to eat the chometz they've sold until at least
the next day,  by which time any difficulties will either have been
resolved or publicized.     (I believe he said he asks baalei batim to
wait two hours also,  but this conversation was some time ago.)

	The lines at the pizza shop/bagel store,  however,  are amazing.

Gershon

> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:38:46 EST
> From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
> Subject: Mechiras Chometz
 
<<But the chometz stuck to one's pots is another matter entirely. Let's
> imagine a situation where the non-Jew has come to collect all (or a
> portion of) the chometz which I sold him. And we have to be able to
> envision such a scenario, because if you can't, then please explain 
> what is meant by "a sincere and genuine sale". So...

<snip>

> stuck to them. The only thing I am sure of, is that the market value of
> all that chometz put together is most likely less than a pruta, and
> surely less than the value of the time spent looking for it!>>

	I have heard this argument made as an objection to NOT selling serious
chometz, which some people are machmir to do (I know someone who throws
out considerable amounts of perfectly good liquor every year rather than
sell it).  

	Since in most communities the Rov selling the chometz is acting on
behalf of groceries,  bakeries,  etc. where the value of the chometz is
considerable,  the couple of noodles behind your refrigerator are just
thrown into the deal.  If those are all you're selling,  try selling them
or the chometz stuck to your pots on the open market to see if it is a
real sale or not.

Gershon

circa 1950 there was a study published at YU (Yale University) that ascribed the
lower affliction of alcoholism among Jews to the practice of the normal use of
alcoholic beverage in the Jewish home, ie giving children wine to drink at kiddush
etc. While among certain other religions the use of alcohol was a big no-no giving
their adherents a delicious means of rebelling.
take care and l'chaim
steve

On 16 Dec 99, at 12:43, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> 	I have heard from a choshuveh Rov (whose permission I do not have to
> quote him) that he does not allow pizza shops,  bakeries,  etc. under his
> hashgacha to open motzoei Yom tov for this reason.  

When my shver was selling chometz in Chicago, they used to sell 
it to one of the goyim who worked at one of the bakeries under their 
hashgacha. That bakery used to start baking right after the 
repurchase was completed (although they did not reopen for 
business until the following morning). I don't recall what other pizza 
shops and bakeries did, but I don't think any were open except for 
Dunkin Donuts which was under non-Jewish ownership anyway.

> 	Not too many people rush to eat the chometz they've sold until at least
> the next day,  by which time any difficulties will either have been
> resolved or publicized.     

Actually, until we started having to keep the house Pesachdik for 
an extra day because of visitors from chutz laaretz, we would often 
eat some kind of chametz after the Pesach dishes and supplies 
were put away. But as you can imagine, that was usually some 
time in the middle of the night.

(I believe he said he asks baalei batim to
> wait two hours also,  but this conversation was some time ago.)
> 
> 	The lines at the pizza shop/bagel store,  however,  are amazing.

The first year that the Dunkin Donuts on Devon Avenue in Chicago 
had a hechsher, the guy was amazed at how many people came in 
to buy Donuts. He hired extra workers, baked more and more 
donuts, and then suddenly after a night of massive buying it 
stopped. And NO ONE came for a week.... The guy let go all the 
extra workers he hired and then that same night all of the Jews 
came back en masse in larger numbers than they had ever come 
before. After that, the CRC told him about Pesach....

(True story by the way).

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Strongly as in a STRING drink <smile>

I would be willing to bet that like me, he does NOT believe in one size fits all
solutions or hashkofos.

Ignore ALL generlizations - expeically this one <smile>

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RE: Minors and kiddush wine  
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    12/16/1999 11:41 AM


> 
> combinede to de-mystify alchol and actually make it LESS 
> likely to become abused

Rabbi Dr. Twersky would probably argue on that point very strongly.

> 	I have heard this argument made as an objection to NOT
> selling serious
> chometz, which some people are machmir to do (I know someone
> who throws
> out considerable amounts of perfectly good liquor every year
> rather than sell it).

Is this being machir? The *heter* to sell chametz applies to cheptzed
Marubah.

Akiva



===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

*********************


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