Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 187

Wednesday, December 15 1999

• Re: xmas & Jesus
• Re[2]: Homosexuals
• homosexual dilemma
• Re: Re[2]: Homosexuals
• Re: women and funerals
• Plea re Mishkav Zachor Postings
• Re: Homosexuals
• Re: women and funerals
• Sukka on Shmini Atzeres
• women & funerals
• AGUNOHT--Another approach
• RE: Homosexuality
• Re: Re[2]: Homosexuals
• Re: Plea re Mishkav Zachor Postings
• Re: Subject: Re: problem kids
• women and funerals
• Re: Re[2]: Mesaye'a
• Re: Re[2]: co-opting music
• Re: women and funerals
• Re: women and funerals
• Re: women and funerals
• Re: Plea re Mishkav Zachor Postings
• Re: Avodah V4 #186

In a message dated 12/14/99 8:05:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

> > See Darchei Teshuvah Yoreh Deah 147:7 that it is
>  > permissible to say Jesus 
>  > because that is just a regular first name but it is
>  > forbidden to say his 
>  > "last name" because it implies that he is a deity.
>  > 
>  > 
>  
>  This seems difficult to me because the word "christ"
>  comes from the Greek word "christos" which I'm pretty
>  sure  means "messiah".  I believe this was also
>  pointed out by some on the list recently as well.  
>  
>  Bottom line: If the word "christ" does not translate
>  into :"deity", then it should be no problem saying it.
>  
>  However, I do believe there are opinions about saying
>  that word to the contrary.
>  
The Loshon there is "Rak Shyesh Lizoheir Sheloi Yikroeim Kmoi Shemazkirim 
Oisoi Hoakum Blosohn Chashivus"

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

I know first hand of several homosexuals who were "cured"

My opinion is :are when psychiatry believed it was a disease and it COULD be 
cured it was cured and when the paradigm shifted and said it was gnetically 
pre-dtermined and could not be cured lo and behold it could not be cured.

IOW one's BELIEF in the lack of a cure is a placebo-ike phenomennum PRVENTING it
from happening.

Or as rebbes of mine insisted:
Ein dovor omeid lifnei horatzon, if you want it bad enough it is no dream

Since the lesening of the stigma of homsxuality, I'm quite confident the 
efficacy rate has dropped.  Ostraciszation - as cruel as it is - does work.

And prohibition cut down incidents of alcoholism too.

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


I understand that there is scant medical evidence of the existence of what 
you describe at "type 2 homosexuality." There is even less evidence that 
homosexuals can be "cured" from their condition.

Halacha is about law, not "cures." Psychiatry isn't going to bail us out of 
this one.

David Finch

Objection was raised to my comment:

> << I'm reminded of a post I saw somewhere once, possibly on
>  soc.culture.jewish, in the midst of a flame war on the subject.  The
>  poster was a frum homosexual who said "I KNOW it's against the halacha.
>  But damn you for being so happy about it."
>  
>  Food for thought/reflection. >

with:

> Upon reflection, my thought is that it is unfortunate that people
> (Intentionally?  I hope not.) misinterpret belief with smugness, and
> presume that people who have done their best to shape their attitudes
> in a manner consistent with halacha are motivated only by their innate
> bigotry.  Perhaps this attitude should be expected from the Italian
> Supreme Court, but hearing it suggested by shomrei mitzvos is
> disheartening.

My intention wasn't to call anyone a bigot.  I've been impressed with the
generally thoughtful material posted on the subject so far.  My intention
was to focus on the terrible impasse that gay frum Jews face.  The
statement sounded to me like a howl of pain and frustration.  They're
between a rock and a hard place; irresistible force versus immovable
object; etc.  The statement sounded to me like a plea for some attempt at
sympathizing with their situation, even if halachic alternatives aren't
available, rather than just shouting "assur" at them.  They know it's
assur.

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu

In a message dated 12/14/99 8:04:15 PM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< Ostraciszation - as cruel as it is - does work.
 
 And prohibition cut down incidents of alcoholism too.
  >>

So did the Rack. As Benzion Netanyahu wrote in great detail, it made good 
X-tians out of lots of Spanish Jews.

David Finch

Freda Birnbaum wrote:
> A question:  women serve on Chevras Kadisha.  Sometimes a Chevra will have
>  to perform two or even three taharas in an evening (after Yom Tov, for
>  example).  Women do the real "dirty work" of childbirth.  Why are they
>  understood by anyone to be such weak creatures that they (as a class)
>  can't handle being at a funeral?

Who here suggested that it had to do with being "weak creatures?"

So far, people have suggested
    a) That the reason has been lost, 
    b) Once a woman miscarried at a funeral.

Personally, I suspect an event where a miscarriage occured, combined with a 
Ruach-Raah-ish concern.

Mordechai Torczyner
Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf

Folks, I do not know how it goes in your homes, but in mine, my kids see me
reading the e-mail and they occasionally use e-mail themselves. Avodah,
therefore, should be a family-friendly forum, adhering to the most prudish
standards of expression prevalent in our community. While I personally find
the recent thread on Mishkav Zachor perplexing and unnecessary, at the very
least, can we please watch our expression - partcularly in our subject
lines. Remember the Rambam's definition of "Lashon Ha'Kodesh"! Please use
the term "mishkav zachor", not the alternative. And, yishma chochom v'yosif
lekach.

Thank you very much.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

> Since the lesening of the stigma of homsxuality, I'm quite confident the 
> efficacy rate has dropped.  Ostraciszation - as cruel as it is - does work.

"work" in what sense --- more outward compliance, but were these would-be
homosexuals devoted husbands?  do we know how many past suicides were
from ostracized homosexuals?  how many secret aveirot?

i don't entirely disagree with you:  someone who literally has a choice
between men and women should choose whichever is the opposite sex (and i
think they have every incentive to.)  someone who doesn't have such a
choice should not be compelled because it's not clear they can meet the
obligations of marriage.  (and i don't mean functionally, but in terms
of thought.  cf., nedarim 20a on rabbi eliezer.)

janet

On the one hand, I too am bothered by reports of communities which
exclude entire classes of people from attending funerals, ostensibly as a
result of individual unfortunate incidents.  If I remember correctly,
this sort of minhag prevents children from attending the burial of their
own parents, according to the minhagim of Yerushalayim.

I think it is important to remember that a minhag is in a very different
category than other halachos. Minhagim are not imposed by Hashem or
legislated by the rabbis. A minhag comes from the *people*. An individual
or small group does something, and it spreads to a larger group, and
ultimately to the entire community.

It is all too easy for me to imagine that in the early days of these
minhagim, the excluded groups would have complained bitterly, demanding
to be allowed to attend the burial. But actually, either (a) the
community restrained them from attending, or (b) the individuals
restrained themselves. In any case, the restraint was *not* from the
halacha. Those people, generations back, saw some sort of wisdom in
keeping those people away from the burial, and they accepted this as a
minhag upon themselves and their descendants. We may not understand the
reasoning behind such a minhag, but chalilah for us to take it lightly.

Akiva Miller

___________________________________________________________________
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From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>

richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

>>>.. the text says one thing but the practice is different.
>>> EG the common minhag of NOT eating in a sukkah on Shmini Atzeres

No guarantees for the veracity of this story.
When the late Satmar Rebbe zt''l was asked why in
America he eats in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres - unlike his
practice 'in der heim' where he ate indoors?  - answered:
"Oifen elter darf men zich
shoyn firen lauten Shulchan Oruch..."

SBA

From:  Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>
Subject: women & funerals

Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>wrote:
>>>....funeral in Petach Tikvah ... the Chevrah Kadisha announced that
>>women were not to go to the graveside funeral....origin of this custom and why?
and Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu wrote;
>>>But why try to prevent women as a class from
>>going to funerals (or to the cemetery)?


The Kitzur Shulchan Oruch 198:10 states that it is a Sakono for men and women
to see each other at a funeral. This is from SA YD 359:2 (see Shach and Bach).
The Nitei Gavriel on Hilchos Aveilus bring many more sources for total
separation of men and women at funerals and/or totally banning
women from funerals - incluidng SA Harav, Mavar Yabok,
Minhogei Worms, Nickelsburg, Tzfas, Bovel and Mizrach lands.

SBA

"Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
Subject: Re: AGUNOHT--Another approach

>>>Chalila. In the time of Rabbi Meir there was a group of bandits...suggested that
>>>they daven for their death... Beruriah, objected ...Rather.. daven for them to do
>>>tshuva.... her suggestion was accepted and the bandits did tshuva.

Maybe Beruriah knew that there was some hope with those particular bandits...??
But have you every considered the words of the Tefila we say
thrice daily  - "Velamashinim..." ('Vehazedim Meheiro Se'aker etc etc' ?

SBA

>
> A biologist attempted to PROVE to me that homosexuality was
> genetic and
>

AFAIK, there has been only *one* study showing a genetic cause. This study,
by an active, vocal/radical homosexual, has *not* been confirmed, even
though several studies have tried.

(New Scientist had an article a few years ago on the subject, which included
and interview with him).

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

In a message dated 12/14/99 9:04:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< Since the lesening of the stigma of homsxuality, I'm quite confident the 
 efficacy rate has dropped.  Ostraciszation - as cruel as it is - does work.
 
 And prohibition cut down incidents of alcoholism too.
  >>

Both unverifiable assertions. 

Jordan

In a message dated 12/14/99 11:37:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

<< Remember the Rambam's definition of "Lashon Ha'Kodesh"! Please use
 the term "mishkav zachor", not the alternative. And, yishma chochom v'yosif
 lekach. >>

Homosexuality is Mishkav Zachor. Why assume the term Mishkav Zachor is any 
less incendiary?
This has actually been a very thoughtful thread. Perhaps because I haven't 
posted on it. :-)


Jordan 

On 14 Dec 99, at 22:56, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:

> A point of information:  The number presented about Dat Leumi high-schools
> is funny for a few reasons:
> 
> a) is this across-the-board including city Mamlachti Dati together with Bnei
> Akiva (and related) Yeshivot and Ulpanot?

I heard it second hand (Adina heard the original speaker), but she 
came home from that PTA and told me that the speaker said those 
numbers (one in five not fruhm) related to graduates of dati leumi 
HIGH SCHOOLS ten years ago, and that if anything the numbers 
were worse today. The numbers were based on some sort of 
survey, the details of which I do not have.

> b) does this take into consideration that in Mamlachti Dati elementary
> schools we have approx. 20-30% (this is based on my experience in several
> schools) of kids who are from non-religious homes -- many of which go on to
> MD schools, some to become fruhm and some leave.

I think that only the kids who went on to MD high schools were 
included.

> c) there are schools which belong to the MD junior high/high school
> system -- but the kids are there b/c of parental choice, usually schools
> intended for kids from broken families etc.  -- and the kids never got much
> of  a fruhm education prior to arriving at the school (state dorms.).  BTW,
> there are similar schools in the Chareidi school systems.

It didn't sound to me that these were the types of schools he was 
discussing. 

My daughter goes to Chorev Yerushalayim, which is considered 
one of the finest schools in the DL system. The person who spoke 
with the parents was trying to shake them out of their 
complacency....

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Freda Birnbaum writes
> 
> But why try to prevent women as a class from going to funerals (or to the
> cemetery)?  I read a lot of literature extolling the virtues of accepting
> the fact of death, mourners shoveling at least some of the dirt
> themselves, etc., and can't see why this wouldn't apply to women as well.
> Indeed, having buried both parents, my own experience at least is that it
> is better to participate fully than to not be there.
> 
In the funeral I went to the wife went to the graveside immediately after
the funeral and the checra kadisha supplied a lamp (it was midnight).
So I suspect the reason is not the emotional impact.
Anything in kabbalah?
I have heard kabbalist reasons that in some places the descendants of the
deceased do not follow the casket.

Eli Turkel

> My biggest problem with Darwinian Evolution is the WAY it is taught in
schools.
>
> It's taught as a DOGMA and if you don't believe in it you are a
Neanderthal,
> etc.

In the 3rd year of my zoology major we were taught a course in evolution,
(chiefly by a Prof, a real mensch, who admitted privately to me that he was
agnostic. ) I was frankly amazed at the apologetic tone,  since from high
school it was indeed presented as "that's the way it is".  In college it
was, "here's the evidence we have, come to your own conclusions. "  It
became clear that it is more of a hypothesis than a theory- an untested
suggested mechanism based on many observations of the natural world as it
appears today.  Personally, the idea of G-d driven evolution makes sense to
me-  see Prof. Lee Spetner's "Not by Chance" for excellent discussion.  Mrs
GA

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.

----- Original Message -----
From: <TROMBAEDU@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 11:38 PM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: co-opting music


> In a message dated 12/13/99 4:32:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> gatwood@netvision.net.il writes:
>
> << Is there anything wrong with that?  No mention there of the threesome,
or
> of
>  Yeshke.  Do we assume that his monotheism is pagum beyond recognition?
Do
>  we discriminate between Catholicism with all its icons and Methodism and
>  similar which has moved far away from that?  Linguistically,  Yiddish is
>  based on Medieval German, proving that even the original Ashkenaz
language
>  is redeemable- :-) >>
> \
> I was merely responding to someone who was characterizing Bach as less of
a
> religious composer than a secular one, that's all.
> Don't kvetch to me, I was at Avery Fisher for the NY Philharmonic B minor
> Mass. (For all the uncultured out there, a famous piece by Bach)

> Jordan

Merely a general enquiry, not in any way a kvetch at you :-)  E mail doesn't
transmit tone of voice- so we can take remarks different ways.  No offence
meant. Personally, I fell in love with Tocata & fugue in D minor when I was
about 13...  GA
>

On 14 Dec 99, at 15:24, Freda B Birnbaum wrote:

> A question:  women serve on Chevras Kadisha.  Sometimes a Chevra will have
> to perform two or even three taharas in an evening (after Yom Tov, for
> example).  Women do the real "dirty work" of childbirth.  Why are they
> understood by anyone to be such weak creatures that they (as a class)
> can't handle being at a funeral?  (FWIW, I was at a funeral once where the
> deceased was a young girl, and the rabbi asked (actually told) the Chevra
> Kadisha women to act as the pallbearers.)

I don't think it's a question of weakness - I think it's because of a 
maaseh shehaya. 

BTW I have also been told that women who are pregnant should 
not go to the cemetary at all and should not participate in taharos; I 
assume that is because of ayin hara considerations.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 15 Dec 99, at 0:17, Kenneth G Miller wrote:

> On the one hand, I too am bothered by reports of communities which
> exclude entire classes of people from attending funerals, ostensibly as a
> result of individual unfortunate incidents.  If I remember correctly,
> this sort of minhag prevents children from attending the burial of their
> own parents, according to the minhagim of Yerushalayim.

Actually, I don't think that children not attending funerals in 
Yerushalayim has anything to do with unfortunate incidents. I think 
it has to do with a kabbalah that R. Eli Turkel alluded to earlier. 

> I think it is important to remember that a minhag is in a very different
> category than other halachos. Minhagim are not imposed by Hashem or
> legislated by the rabbis. A minhag comes from the *people*. An individual
> or small group does something, and it spreads to a larger group, and
> ultimately to the entire community.
>
> It is all too easy for me to imagine that in the early days of these
> minhagim, the excluded groups would have complained bitterly, demanding
> to be allowed to attend the burial. But actually, either (a) the
> community restrained them from attending, or (b) the individuals
> restrained themselves. In any case, the restraint was *not* from the
> halacha. Those people, generations back, saw some sort of wisdom in
> keeping those people away from the burial, and they accepted this as a
> minhag upon themselves and their descendants. We may not understand the
> reasoning behind such a minhag, but chalilah for us to take it lightly.

Your thoughts are well spoken, but I can tell you that for 
Americans who R"L have to come to levayos, dealing with some of 
the things that are part of Minhag Yerushalayim can be painful. 
Among the practices that Americans often find difficult are two that 
have been discussed on this list in the last day or so (women and 
children of the deceased not going to the kvura), as well as several 
others (among the ones that come to mind are the practice of not 
making a shura for women or allowing them to walk through the 
existing shura when they do attend a kvura, and the practice of not 
leaving a mes overnight - which may be more than a minhag (see 
Pirkei Avos) - which sometimes can cause relatives from abroad to 
miss the levaya altogether). Some of the Chevrot here are known to 
be more flexible than others. YMMV.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 15 Dec 99, at 11:03, Eli Turkel wrote:

> In the funeral I went to the wife went to the graveside immediately after
> the funeral and the checra kadisha supplied a lamp (it was midnight).

I think that's actually Bnei Brak's minhag and not Yerushalayim's. 
In Yerushalayim, most of the Chevrot discourage women from 
going to the grave altogether until after the shiva.

> So I suspect the reason is not the emotional impact.
> Anything in kabbalah?
> I have heard kabbalist reasons that in some places the descendants of the
> deceased do not follow the casket.

I've heard the same kabbalah.

Isn't there a gemara somewhere that says women can't go to a 
cemetary (at all? at night?) because of a maaseh shehaya? The 
third perek of Brachos rings a bell, but it's been a couple of years 
since I learned it....

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Because it is in lashon ha'kodesh. Could you please do me a favor even if
you disagree?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <TROMBAEDU@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 1:59 AM
Subject: Re: Plea re Mishkav Zachor Postings


> In a message dated 12/14/99 11:37:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:
>
> << Remember the Rambam's definition of "Lashon Ha'Kodesh"! Please use
>  the term "mishkav zachor", not the alternative. And, yishma chochom
v'yosif
>  lekach. >>
>
> Homosexuality is Mishkav Zachor. Why assume the term Mishkav Zachor is any
> less incendiary?
> This has actually been a very thoughtful thread. Perhaps because I haven't
> posted on it. :-)
>
>
> Jordan
>

----- Original Message -----
From: Avodah <owner-avodah@aishdas.org>
To: <avodah-digest@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 3:15 AM
Subject: Avodah V4 #186
> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 15:32:22 -0500
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: Re: women and funerals
>
> A Guess: Perhaps Chevra women are different than non-Chevra wowen by
having been
> de-sensitized
>
> IOW it's not a function of bodily strneghtt, it's a function of emotional
> "shock" value.

OTOH, there are some women who are sensitive in  a different way, i.e. until
they actually see the body buried they don't belive a person is dead.

BTW, that was one of the issues of the Yaldei Teiman -- the women refused to
believe their children had died as they had never been allowed to see them
dead or buried.

Shoshana

*********************


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