Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 186

Tuesday, December 14 1999

• Shechem culpability
• Re: xmas & Jesus
• ganav
• women and funerals
• Re: Avodah V4 #185
• Re: women and funerals
• Re: Avodah V4 #185
• Re: Text vs. Practice
• Re: women and funerals
• Mesarving on the Internet
• Re[2]: women and funerals
• Subject: Re: problem kids
• Re: AGUNOHT--Another approach
• Re: Re[2]: women and funerals
• On loshon horo and siruv
• Re[2]: AGUNOHT--Another approach
• Re: Avodah V4 #185
• Re: Homosexuals
• Re: xmas & Jesus
• Re: xmas & Jesus
• Re: xmas & Jesus
• Yetamu Chatoim
• Re: AGUNOHT--Another approach
• Re: Was re: AGUNOHT--Another approach, now: Chata'im v'lo
• Re: Homosexuality

In Avodah V$ #183, David Glassner asked if the the inhabitants of Shechem
were culpable for not enforcing the law against rape, are all the citizens
of the United States culpable for not preventing abortions which are a
violation of the seven Noahide laws? Would one be allowed, under this
reasoning, to kill American citizens?

The Shechemites were culpable because they violated the Noachide mitzva of
"dinim"; i.e. they did not have a legal system to enforce the Noachide laws
and maintain civil order. Not having a judicial and/or legislative system is
in itself a Noachide sin, all of which are capital crimes. In the absence of
such a system, there's a machlokes rishonim, and in teshuvos acharonim,
whether each individual Ben Noach is obligated to enforce the law and mete
out punishment. (One interesting one is: if a Ben Noach commits a Noachide
sin, is he then obligated to enforce punishment against the offender . . .
by committing suicide?)

On the other hand, US citizens fulfil the mitzvah of "dinim" by maintaining
a system where civil laws are enacted and enforced. Their obligation is to
play their part in seeing to it that the system enacts laws which are in
agreement with the Noachide laws and enforces them.

While this explains the difference between the Shechemite's culpability and
an American's obligation visa-vis a Noachide sinner, it still leaves the
question of whether one is obligated to fight the system when it itself
violates Noachide laws, at the risk of being punished for it by the system.
This I don't know.


Yaakov Schachter

See Darchei Teshuvah Yoreh Deah 147:7 that it is permissible to say Jesus 
because that is just a regular first name but it is forbidden to say his 
"last name" because it implies that he is a deity.

> From: gil.student@citicorp.com
> Subject: Re: Was re: AGUNOHT--Another approach, now: Chata'im v'lo 
> 
<<I once asked Rabbi Meir Orlian who agreed with me.  His example was a
ganav  and a goneiv, a goneiv being someone who has stolen while a ganav
is a  thief.>>

	I heard the analogy:  a lamdan is NOT someone who  "knows how" to learn,
 but someone who learns!

Gershon

Eli Turkel asked,

> Last night I went to a funeral in Petach Tikvah (which follows minhag
> yerushalayim) and the Chevrah Kadisha announced that women were not to
> go to the graveside funeral. Does anyone know the origin of this
> custom and why?

To which Rich Wolpoe replied:

> I know in the Breuer Kehillo women were discouraged from attending the
> grave-site ceremonies.
> 
> I once heard that this goes back to a real life incidnet in which a
> pregnant woman was mapil - lo alienu - due to the "stress" of seeing
> the kever etc.  While the source is a bit fuzzy to me I would not be
> surpised if a "takkono" was made as a result of bad experience.

I've heard a similar explanation but am puzzled as to why one such
instance would spark this custom.

A question:  women serve on Chevras Kadisha.  Sometimes a Chevra will have
to perform two or even three taharas in an evening (after Yom Tov, for
example).  Women do the real "dirty work" of childbirth.  Why are they
understood by anyone to be such weak creatures that they (as a class)
can't handle being at a funeral?  (FWIW, I was at a funeral once where the
deceased was a young girl, and the rabbi asked (actually told) the Chevra
Kadisha women to act as the pallbearers.)

Also FWIW, I went some years ago to a day of learning about Chevra Kadisha
matters, and a frequent response by the "scholar-in-residence", a very
knowledgeable and respected person, to specific questions was "ask your
local chevra person" -- IOW, the force of custom in this area is great and
hence many variations are within acceptable bounds.

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu

Gil student wrote:

<<
I've seen people mention Beruriah's diyyuk of "yitamu chatayim" chatayim 
velo chotim.  Am I the only one who is perplexed by this?  Doesn't
chatayim 
mean people who are ingrained in sinning while chotim means people who 
occasionally sin?
>>

R. Hirsch Isenberg HKM used this argument to claim that Bruriah was
saying a drush, not pshat in the pasuk.

David Riceman

A Guess: Perhaps Chevra women are different than non-Chevra wowen by having been
de-sensitized 

IOW it's not a function of bodily strneghtt, it's a function of emotional 
"shock" value.  


Rich Wolpoe 



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<snip>
A question:  women serve on Chevras Kadisha.  Sometimes a Chevra will have 
to perform two or even three taharas in an evening (after Yom Tov, for 
example).  Women do the real "dirty work" of childbirth.  Why are they 
understood by anyone to be such weak creatures that they (as a class) 
can't handle being at a funeral?  (FWIW, I was at a funeral once where the 
deceased was a young girl, and the rabbi asked (actually told) the Chevra 
Kadisha women to act as the pallbearers.)

<snip>
Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu

----- Original Message ----- >
> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:20:37 -0500 (EST)
> From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
> Subject: Agunah and Pruzbul
[del]

> We have two major advantages today that should speed up the process:
publishing
> and communications. However, who knows how much faster things will run?
Are
> we expecting halachah not only to move faster than it ever had before, but
> faster than it is capable of?
>
> My semi-anonymous friend stated to me last Shabbos a sentiment recently
> articulated by R' Blau. The problem with agunos is more about the disunity
> of the halachic community than the presence of solutions.

Nowadays, I doubt there is a single community world-wide that doesn't have
at least 1 member with internet access.  Yet, how many wouldn't consider it
Lashon Ha'ra if I posted a world-wide request to " Please locate Ploni
Almoni who has skipped out on his wife, left in not only penniless in Israel
(with/without children), but also carrying all his enormous debts."?

From past comments I would probably get:
1)  Who said this is true?
-  So we would have to have a recognized Beit Din publish this -- and we can
start arguing now which Beit Din is "recognized".

2) 50% of the responses will be:  This is Lashon Ha'ra.  You should be
ashamed of yourself for saying such things about nice Ploni Almoni who in
gives charity and supports Yeshivot, etc.

3) At least 10% will reply:  "He told us that his wife .... [fill in the
blanks] and she deserves what she gets."  To which I would respond:  fine,
so why doesn't he send a Shaliach with the Get (which would probably solve
some of the financial issues as well).

4)  And then there could be the legitimate response:  "X spoke to the wife
and she doesn't want a Get -- she just wants the property", which then
raises a separate group of problems (should we get involved only in
Mesoravei/Mesoravot Get -- or in any case of Bein Adam Le'chaveiro injustice
involving families -- delinquent dads (don't pay child support)?  Men who
skip leaving the wife to cope with the debts on her own? etc.).   Such cases
are either the precursors of Agunah cases, or the results of such cases, and
that is why I'm bringing them up as well.

So, please -- any ideas how we can set up a legitimate Agunah/Missing spouse
site with reasonable oversight?

Shoshana Boublil (the opinions are mine)

Is anyone know of anyone that is someich on the mechabeir's eitzo of masneh 
aleihem kol yayom legabei netillas Yodayim?

See SA  164:1 and MB 164:2.

To me this is a case on the books that AFAIK is never or hardly ever put into 
practice

Rich Wolpoe 

Rich Wolpoe suggests:

> A Guess: Perhaps Chevra women are different than non-Chevra wowen by
> having been de-sensitized
> 
> IOW it's not a function of bodily strneghtt, it's a function of
> emotional "shock" value.

But why try to prevent women as a class from going to funerals (or to the
cemetery)?  I read a lot of literature extolling the virtues of accepting
the fact of death, mourners shoveling at least some of the dirt
themselves, etc., and can't see why this wouldn't apply to women as well.
Indeed, having buried both parents, my own experience at least is that it
is better to participate fully than to not be there.

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu

Suggestion:  Each Beis Din maintina a site of msarvin...

EG, On the 5th of Teves, 5760 ploni as been determined by DB of Oshkosh.

confidential details can be furnished privately

Signed
Rabbis X Y Z 
Beis din of Oshkosh

Then you can setup a webpage that xref's all of these botei dinim webpages.

EG The Siruv WEBPAGE

HYPERLINK to BD of OSHKOSH - North Pole - Etc.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________



So, please -- any ideas how we can set up a legitimate Agunah/Missing spouse 
site with reasonable oversight?

Shoshana Boublil (the opinions are mine)

I dunno?!

In general beshito, I tend to respect minhogim even absent any known rationale. 
I chalk it up to the minhag having survived and the rationale as having been 
forgotten.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

But why try to prevent women as a class from going to funerals (or to the 
cemetery)? 

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu

----- Original Message -----
From: Avodah <owner-avodah@aishdas.org>
To: <avodah-digest@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: problem kids

There are problem kids in all fruhm communities, Chareidi and Dati Leumi
alike. That is one issue that needs dealing with.  Whether the drop-out rate
is caused by the same reasons, is another issue, that could be of interest.

A point of information:  The number presented about Dat Leumi high-schools
is funny for a few reasons:

a) is this across-the-board including city Mamlachti Dati together with Bnei
Akiva (and related) Yeshivot and Ulpanot?
b) does this take into consideration that in Mamlachti Dati elementary
schools we have approx. 20-30% (this is based on my experience in several
schools) of kids who are from non-religious homes -- many of which go on to
MD schools, some to become fruhm and some leave.
c) there are schools which belong to the MD junior high/high school
system -- but the kids are there b/c of parental choice, usually schools
intended for kids from broken families etc.  -- and the kids never got much
of  a fruhm education prior to arriving at the school (state dorms.).  BTW,
there are similar schools in the Chareidi school systems.

Shoshana L. Boublil

In a message dated 12/14/99 6:01:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
gatwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< 
 > I would advocate a
 > ---public policy of encouraging agunoth to pray for the death of their
 > tormentors
 > ---public policy of publicizing all such men who die from such prayers.
 >
 Chalila.
 In the time of Rabbi Meir there was a group of bandits in the neighbourhood,
 understandably making people's lives miserable. Rabbi Meir suggested that
 they daven for the deaths of these bandits.  Rabbi Meir's wife, Beruriah,
 objected to this. Rather, the townspeople should daven for them to do
 tshuva. Is it not true that her suggestion was accepted and the bandits did
 tshuva. >>
Pshat here is not so simple as there are other gemoras that imply the 
opposite- see sanhedrin 17a re: R'zera.  The munkatcher said that the halacha 
is not like Bruria since even David hamelech (see Tehilim 104) said shira 
when enemies destroyed.  Others say you can pray for destruction of 
apikursim.  While "in my gut" I bellieve exactly as Bruria said, 
intellectually I have to report that there are other shitot.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote, re:

> > But why try to prevent women as a class from going to funerals (or to
> > the cemetery)?

> I dunno?!
> 
> In general beshito, I tend to respect minhogim even absent any known
> rationale.  I chalk it up to the minhag having survived and the
> rationale as having been forgotten.

This doesn't appear to be a universal minhag, however.

Freda Birnbaum

May I humbly suggest a valuable diticintion be made...

In American law we have a principle - presumed innocent until convicted by due 
proces of law...

Similarly, I suggest refraining from any negative activity against "SUSPECTS" 
until they are "convicted" by a BD

Examples of negative activity include: 
1) loshon horo
2) praying for their demise
3) taking away kibbudim

After conviction by a bona fide BD, OTOH, it would seem fair to me that lsohon 
horo should no longer apply; therefore someone labeled a ganov,  rotziach or a 
sarvon would indeed have "earned" that label "fair and sqaure". 

The main avlo with Loshon horo - as I see it - is a person is bieng convicted 
int the court of public opinion without bona fide due process.  IOW who makes 
us the judges over ploni's behavior? But a BD DOES have that jurisdiction.

This perhaps a sample of how DIN/EMES/SHOLOM work together..


Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
at least 1 member with internet access.  Yet, how many wouldn't consider it 
Lashon Ha'ra if I posted a world-wide request to " Please locate Ploni 
Almoni who has skipped out on his wife, left in not only penniless in Israel 
(with/without children), but also carrying all his enormous debts."?

<snip>
Shoshana Boublil (the opinions are mine)

lave davka

Perhaps a melech has the responsibilit to ENFORCE laws, unlike us civilians!

Also a melech was a Dayan and Shofeit.

As I just posted, it is a different kettle of fish when dealing with Rreshoim 
convicted by a Beis Din than those convicted by our opinions alone.

Perhaps when Chazal, too, label X a rosho, they ar actin in a quasi-juudicial 
role... 

Think of it this way, If Hitler YSV was suc han obvious Rosho why bother with 
Nuernberg, isn't it an anan sahadi that he is a rosho?

Neurnberg served to demonstrate to the world at large the supremacy of the rule 
of law. (How in tune with the & Noahide laws!)

When Dovid - as a bona fide Melech - says X is a rosho, it is a bit different 
thent perhpas us or even an LOR.  it takes some kind of judicial proceeeding to 
make this happen.

K'nega ni'oro li. Even a talmid chochom cannot pronoucne a nega unilt the kohen 
makes it so!

Perhaps Dovid is analogous to a kohein, his say so DID make it so!


Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
The munkatcher said that the halacha is not like Bruria since even David 
hamelech (see Tehilim 104) said shira when enemies destroyed.  Others say you 
can pray for destruction of apikursim.  While "in my gut" I bellieve exactly 
as Bruria said, intellectually I have to report that there are other shitot.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

In a message dated 12/14/1999 2:19:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
fbb6@columbia.edu writes:

<< I'm reminded of a post I saw somewhere once, possibly on
 soc.culture.jewish, in the midst of a flame war on the subject.  The
 poster was a frum homosexual who said "I KNOW it's against the halacha.
 But damn you for being so happy about it."
 
 Food for thought/reflection. >>

Upon reflection, my thought is that it is unfortunate that people 
(Intentionally?  I hope not.) misinterpret belief with smugness, and presume 
that people who have done their best to shape their attitudes in a manner 
consistent with halacha are motivated only by their innate bigotry.  Perhaps 
this attitude should be expected from the Italian Supreme Court, but hearing 
it suggested by shomrei mitzvos is disheartening.

Meyer

In a message dated 12/14/99 8:18:19 AM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< And I would also suggest that those who suffer type 2 homosexuality (the 
kind 
 that is more from "nurture" than from "nature") might therefore be mechuyav 
to 
 seek therapy.  IOW Since they CAN be healed therefore they are obligated to 
do 
 their best.. >>

I understand that there is scant medical evidence of the existence of what 
you describe at "type 2 homosexuality." There is even less evidence that 
homosexuals can be "cured" from their condition.

Halacha is about law, not "cures." Psychiatry isn't going to bail us out of 
this one.

David Finch

In a message dated 12/14/99 11:11:35 AM US Central Standard Time, 
bjk1@pipeline.com writes:

<< Is there any problem saying Christmas or Christ ? >>

Not if you sell retail this time of year, or if you drop something heavy on 
your toe.

David Finch

In a message dated 12/14/99 1:43:33 PM US Central Standard Time, 
gil.student@citicorp.com writes:

<< See Darchei Teshuvah Yoreh Deah 147:7 that it is permissible to say Jesus 
 because that is just a regular first name but it is forbidden to say his 
 "last name" because it implies that he is a deity. >>

Jesus, you've got to be kidding.

David Finch

--- gil.student@citicorp.com wrote:
> See Darchei Teshuvah Yoreh Deah 147:7 that it is
> permissible to say Jesus 
> because that is just a regular first name but it is
> forbidden to say his 
> "last name" because it implies that he is a deity.
> 
> 

This seems difficult to me because the word "christ"
comes from the Greek word "christos" which I'm pretty
sure  means "messiah".  I believe this was also
pointed out by some on the list recently as well.  

Bottom line: If the word "christ" does not translate
into :"deity", then it should be no problem saying it.

However, I do believe there are opinions about saying
that word to the contrary.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

> I've seen people mention Beruriah's diyyuk of "yitamu chatayim" chatayim 
>  velo chotim.  Am I the only one who is perplexed by this?  Doesn't 
chatayim 
>  mean people who are ingrained in sinning while chotim means people who 
>  occasionally sin?
>  
See Tos. Rabeinu Yehuda Hachosid - after much talk about him at least some of 
his torah :-) - and Tos. Horosh (In the Brocho M'shuleshes) on the Gemara 
Brochos 10a.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 12/14/99 3:57:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Joelirich@aol.com writes:

> Pshat here is not so simple as there are other gemoras that imply the 
>  opposite- see sanhedrin 17a re: R'zera.  The munkatcher said that the 
Shalacha 
>  is not like Bruria since even David hamelech (see Tehilim 104) said shira 
>  when enemies destroyed.  Others say you can pray for destruction of 
>  apikursim. 

See Rashi on the Possuk in Tehilim 104:35, and see Gemara and Tos. D"H 
Hashkeim Gitin 7a. (Veod Kamoh Mkoros).

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 12/14/99 10:35:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
gil.student@citicorp.com writes:

> I once asked Rabbi Meir Orlian who agreed with me.  His example was a ganav 
>  and a goneiv, a goneiv being someone who has stolen while a ganav is a 
>  thief.
>  
See Breishis 13:13 and Baal Haturim there, also Bamidbar 17:3

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 12/14/99 10:22:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, RDE writes

> RRW wrote: (v4 n183)

>  V'lo sossuro acharei .. aniechem
>  
>  There seems to be a lot of cautions against certain prohibited sexual 
desires 
>  not just actions>>
>  
>  These don't appear to me to be cautions against prohibited desires. 
>  The first is simply a statement of fact, and the second a warning
>  against a course of action (with a statement that this a common source
>  of straying, i.e., "asher atem zonim achareihem").

See Rambam in Sefer Hamitzvohs Lo Sasei 47, Sefer Hachinuch 387.
>  
>  On the other hand, the gemara in the 9th perek of Brachos (57a) says
>  that one who is ba al eishes-ish bachalom is a ben olam haba, but only
>  on the condition that he does not in fact do it, and is not meharher
>  about her during the day.  

IMHO that is not Teitch of "Dloi Yoda Loh" rather like in Taanis 5b "Byoidoh 
Umakiroh"

> The pashtus is that the person has the innate
>  desire (and perhaps tendency towards arayot) but does not act on his
>  thoughts, and is therefore a tzaddik (the gemara on 55b states that our
>  dreams reflect our hirhurei lev). 

I didn't understand the Gemara that way.

>  Nevertheless, there is the strict
>  stipulation that the dreamer suppress his innate desire to the point of
>  not perseverating on the thoughts consciously at all (I'm not sure if
>  hirhur implies even evanescent thought, or only persistent or
>  persistently recurrent thoughts; anyone have any ra'ayos to be machria
>  either way?).

See Klei Nosi'im Even Hoezer 21.

>  The gemara does list dreams regarding a few other bios
>  assuros there, and is not clear if the caveat of not daydreaming applies
>  to them as well, or only to eishes-ish.

Bpashtus this applies to all see T"Z O"C 248 (3).

>  If we assume (l'chumra) that the caveat applies to all of the arayot
>  listed, it seems that having the innate desire for bios assuros is not
>  bad, as long you properly control that desire, both in your actions and
>  daily thoughts (this goes back to RRW citation of "hirhurei
>  aveira...").

See also Bava Basroh 164b "Sholosh "Aveiros"...Hirhur Aveira...".

Umsaymin Btoiv, Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

*********************


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