Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 182

Monday, December 13 1999

• Re: Homosexuality
• Re: Avodah V4 #177
• Re: keeping track
• Gedolim and Sensitivity
• Re: Takanos
• Re[2]: Slonimer Yichus
• Homosexuality
• Re: Avodah V4 #177
• agunot/dayanim
• Re: agunot/dayanim
• Mikketz/Vayigash - Shim'on
• Darwin
• re: pshat and kiddush
• Apology, Aplogy, Apology!
• Re: Homosexuality
• Naaseh v'Nishma
• Re: Homosexuality
• Homosexuality
• Re: Homosexuality
• Re: RCA pre-nup
• Shmini Atzeres (was Re: Naaseh v'Nishma)

Indeed, I have often said that homosexuality (desire or action) is the moral 
equivalent of Niuf, no more no less.  

It might be politically incorrect to equate the taavo of a homosexual with that 
of an adulterer, but from my Torah/halahcic perspective I see little 
distinction.

A biologist attempted to PROVE to me that homosexuality was genetic and 
therefore their taavo was beynod their control while OTOH an adulterer was 
morally reprehensible for his/her behaviro. I replied rhetorically 
Who adds more to the gene pool,  homosexuals or adulterers?

Rich wolpoe





______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


In the discussion of homosexuality most of the posters (with the exception of 
R.Wolpoe) seem to confuse the affect/desire and the act.  <snip>  Homosexuals 
who commit chiyuvei mi sah are in the same legal boat as men who commit adultery
with married women.  

<snip>
Melech 

" For whatever 
reason, Hashem decreed that she would suffer fifteen years as an 
aguna (and many years before that in her marriage), and as a 
believing Jew, I believe that Hashem will more than make that up to 
her in Olam HaEmes after 120....

And therefore we are free to do nothing?
does this then excuse FDR for refusing to bomb the rail lines? 

In a message dated 12/13/99 11:00:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
S.Klagsbrun@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:

<< 
 # 4 Will we still ask 'who is being hurt' when thanks to Emanuel Rackman
 there are (as will be the case in 20 - 25 years) hundreds, if not thousands
 of marriage age boys and girls who's status is at best in doubt? Let us be
 frank, it is the establishment's inability/refusal to effectively use social
 sanctions and to recognize the need for a uniform and comprehensive pre-nup
 which has opened the door for Rackman & Co.. >>


Not coincidentally, the daf is up to the famous mishna re: how bet hillel and 
shamai  interacted re possible mamzerut due to different shitot in yevamot.  
The mishna says "lo nimnu b"s mlisa nashim mbet hillel..." Rashi following 
the gemora says that they didn't allow these individuals to actually 
intermarry but informed each other of the doubtful status.  Does anyone know 
how this was expected to be traced over time?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

It makes sense to me to say that sensitivity to the Klal is a prerequisiste to 
beging a "Gadol".  Perhaps one can be a lamdon/talmid chochom w/o being 
sensitive to the tzibbur, but to be a GADOL I would think sennitivity is a 
pre-requisite.

Certainly the Rav, R. Moshe, the Chofetz Chaim, R. Kook, etc. were highly 
sensitive neshomos...

Rich Wolpoe

  

Amen

Gershon
PS Did you make the bris bizman?  How are mother and baby?

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:10:23 -0500 gil.student@citicorp.com writes:
> Es chato'ai ani mazkir hayom - over Shabbos I glanced at my in-laws' 
> copy 
> of the Jewish Press.  In the Machberes column it said that Satmar 
> has just 
> instituted a lot of takanos.  No more vorts, lechayims, or tenayims. 
>  They 
> all have to be done at one time in the rebbe's house.  There was 
> more that 
> I can't remember.  Yasher koach to them and im yirtzeh Hashem by us 
> [the 
> "Litvisher" velt].
> 

I'm not sure the article was accurate. (well let's say I am highly suspicious of
its accuracy)m

Is there a family tree of the Slonim "dynasty"?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Slonimer Yichus  
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    12/10/1999 12:34 PM


<Subject: Slonimer Yichus
We were recently discussing the background of the Slonimer Chasssidim, etc. 
I 
just read an article in a synagogue newspaper that the Slonimer Chassidim 
were 
descended from the "rebbes" of Lubavich.  Does Anyone have any details? 
Rich Wolpoe>
nope. slonimers are quite independent of and almost as old a line as 
lubavitch. not sure what your article could be referring to.
Mechy Frankel 

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	I believe Rav Moshe has a teshuva in which he clearly states that
even haveng  homosexual feelings is not natural.I believe he says it is
meridah. I also recall having heard in the name of the Steipler the exact
opposite-that you can't blame someone for having these feelings. I have
never seen the Steipler and I am not even sure if that was actually his
opinion.


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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I believe Rav Moshe =
has a teshuva in which he clearly states that even haveng&nbsp; =
homosexual feelings is not natural.I believe he says it is meridah. I =
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On 14 Dec 99, at 11:28, S Klagsbrun wrote:

> " For whatever 
> reason, Hashem decreed that she would suffer fifteen years as an 
> aguna (and many years before that in her marriage), and as a 
> believing Jew, I believe that Hashem will more than make that up to 
> her in Olam HaEmes after 120....
> 
> And therefore we are free to do nothing?

I certainly did not mean to imply that (I thought the rest of my post 
made that clear). 

> does this then excuse FDR for refusing to bomb the rail lines? 

No, it doesn't. 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Politicians are only able to run for office on the basis of our donations -- 
does this make their every vote suspect? Lawyers are paid for by clients -- 
does this make every lawyer ethically suspect?  Funny no one ever talks 
about "abusive dayanim" who send folks around Brooklyn looking for Israeli 
men who skipped the country without giving a get?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

If an elected official allows himself to be bought and engages in illegal
activites as a result of a bribe, he is a crook; same for a dayan.  I seem
to recall alot of disussions about soft money campaign contributions,
reservations for the Lincoln Bedroom in the White House, etc.  The slope is
very slippery.
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Davidson <perzvi@hotmail.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 12:24 PM
Subject: agunot/dayanim


> Politicians are only able to run for office on the basis of our
donations --
> does this make their every vote suspect? Lawyers are paid for by
clients --
> does this make every lawyer ethically suspect?  Funny no one ever talks
> about "abusive dayanim" who send folks around Brooklyn looking for Israeli
> men who skipped the country without giving a get?
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>

Yedhudah in pleading To Yaakov and then to Yoseif diccusse the father and 
Binyomin etc.  But there is apparently no plea on behalf of Shim'on.

Question:  Why did Yehudah need to wait until the food ran out to plead to 
Yaakov to trust him witht Binyomin.  Why didn't he simply plead on behafl of the
missing Shim'om?

I heard a teairutz saying that Shim'on had "earned" his sentence by wiping out 
Shchem 

BUT

What prevented his borthers from speaking up on his behalf?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<snip>
> 
> And therefore we are free to do nothing?

I certainly did not mean to imply that (I thought the rest of my post 
made that clear). 

> does this then excuse FDR for refusing to bomb the rail lines? 

No, it doesn't. 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.

Religious opposition to Darwinian theory has never been due solely to 
whether evolution challenged the theory of creation detailed in Bereishis -- 
there was also a great deal of political opposition centered around the 
implications of Darwinian theory and the survival of the fittest for welfare 
policy -- e.g., the Protestant social gospel movement, Vatican encyclicals 
on social issues in the 19th century, etc.

______________________________________________________
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David Riceman asked <<< I have heard (I don't know how accurately) that
it is illegal in all fifty states to give alcohol to minors. Is this
true? Do the law abiding Americans on this list restrict their children
to grape juice at kiddush? >>>

Ohr Somayach's "Ask The Rabbi" column
(http://www.ohr.org.il/ask/ask080.htm#Q1) once included a question which
I think is relevant to this question.

<<<<<<<<<<

S. Z. Jessel from Toronto, Ontario wrote: <<< According to Jewish Law,
can you go 65 miles per hour in a 55 mph zone? >>>

Dear S. Z. Jessel, 

I posed your question to Rabbi Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg, shlita, who said
that 'speeding' is prohibited because of the concept 'Dina d'Malchuta
Dina' - 'Civil law is Halacha.' He pointed out that this might even be
considered a Torah prohibition. 

However, Rabbi Scheinberg said the definition of 'speeding' depends not
on what's written in the traffic codes but on how the law is enforced. If
the authorities are not so strict - for instance, they won't give you a
ticket for going 65 mph - then it would be halachically OK to go 65,
although he does not advocate exceeding the posted limit. If, on the
other hand, they are strict and would fine you, then it would be
forbidden. 

He felt that the authorities in the USA are generally not so strict about
people going 65 mph in a 55 zone, and therefore it would be permitted.
This does NOT mean that if you get a ticket for going 65 you don't have
to pay it! 

>>>>>>>>>>

I would suggest that it is mutar to serve alcohol to minors in situations
which are similarly ignored by the civil authorities. The Vice Squad is
quite aware that we serve kiddush wine to the children not only at home
but even in public places such as shul, and they ignore it even there.

This could even apply to a Seudas Purim where entire families are
present, but not to a teen-oriented Purim Party, which is an example of a
situation which we know the authorities to be makpid on.

Any lawyers want to add a more professional opinion?

Akiva Miller
___________________________________________________________________
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I would like to apologize to the list for a flippant
remark I made about the Sridei Aish. 

When I reacted to his comment about going to concerts
being a "bad" activity I reacted by saying that "he
was entitles to his opinion." No one should be so
flippant when reffering to Gedolei Yisroel. 

What I of course meant to say that The Sridei Aish's
view should not necessrily be accepted as Halacha as
he stated it only as his opinion, and indeed there
many who hold that going to concerts are a fine way of
enjoying the best of what western culture has to
offer.

Again, I apologize for my flippancy.

HM
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On 13 Dec 99, at 10:02, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
> Subject: Homosexuality (was Re: what counts as suffering)
>  
> <<not put people to death, but does that mean that we are permitted 
> to call a known (i.e. one who proclaims it after hasraa,>>
> 
> 	AFAIK there is no chiyuv misah to proclaim oneself a homosexual (or
> anything else,  for that matter.

I didn't say that there was. But actually engaging in homosexual 
acts is an issur skila.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

There are 2 aspects to Torah

Naaseh  -waht we do.  This includes - imho - learning halacha persuko

Nishma- the lomdus, the iyyun the academic the contemplation, the reflection the
intellecualizing, the dovor mitoch dovor,  etc.

We need to distinguish between the theoretical and the practical - along the 
lines of "halacha v'ein Morin kein".

I am throwing out a  cahllenge to our list to expand the cases where we know the
text says one thing but hte practice is different.

EG the common minhag of NOT eating in a sukkah on Shmini Atzeres

Rich Wolpoe



________
<snip>

But you're missing my point. I was merely trying to wax poetic about my love for
his music, and my regard for his unique genius. We spend so much time trying 
to say lomdus, that we forget that sometimes things said on this list do not 
require textual or halachik analysis. Unfortunately, some of the people on 
this list who need to hear this most delete my postings, so they are doomed 
to live in their litvish ghetto.
And since I know I am going to hear about this from my good friend R' Moshe 
Bernstein on the way home from shul tonight, let me just remind everybody, 
(tongue in cheek, of course) that lomdus is just a tool.

Jordan
<snip>

However, Rabbi Scheinberg said the definition of 'speeding' depends not on 
what's written in the traffic codes but on how the law is enforced. If the 
authorities are not so strict - for instance, they won't give you a ticket for 
going 65 mph - then it would be halachically OK to go 65, although he does not 
advocate exceeding the posted limit. If, on the other hand, they are strict and 
would fine you, then it would be forbidden. 



Akiva Miller

>>
What I of course meant to say that The Sridei Aish's view should not necessrily 
be accepted as Halacha as he stated it only as his opinion, <<

HM

--- "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> wrote:

 I (and many others on this list) am
> old enough 
> to remember when there was a wide consensus that
> being 
> homosexual was volitional. Personally, I continue to
> believe that it 
> is

I remember.

I was a Psyche major in college during prehistoric
times.

Some clarity would be helpful here. 

Homosexual orientation is no more assur than is
heterosexuality.  What is assur... is acting on an
inclination to perform a homosexual act.  The act is
the capital crime, not the thought.  Lusting in one's
heart (i.e. Hirhurim), may LEAD to the Aveira but
lusting is not the the Aveira itself.  In this sense
Homosexual behavior is always volitional.  It's just a
question of being Misgaber on one's Tavos, whether
those tavos are "straight" or "gay". Lo Tachmod may
have different meaning to a Homosexual.

So, it doesn't really matter whether one believes
homosexuality is a genetically predetermined behavior
or that it is learned behavior.  G-d does not punish
thought. 

So, When someone proclaims his Homosexual orientation,
as long as there is no proof that he has acted on
those inclinations, then he should be consisdered a
full fledged member of the community with all the
rights and responsibilities that entails.

Many of us are disgusted with that type of behavior. 
But are we equally disgusted by Heterosexual behavior
that involves Issurei Ervah?  I doubt it.

One of the more common occurances in society today is
infidelity to one's marraige partner.  In the case of
a married woman, it is a Yahrog VeAl Yavor. 
Unfrotunately we seem to have more pathos for this
behavior than Homosexual behavior.

I am not sure whether there is a "Gay" gene or not.
But I am sure that we could have a lot more compassion
for our fellow man than we do.

HM 
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In regards to the teshuva I mentioned from Rav Moshe on homosexuality, the
exact source is Orach Chaim Chelek 4 Siman 115 page 205.

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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">In regards to the =
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I've been told by a frum psychotherpist that there are 2 kinds of homosexuals 
(not to wax Brisker about this):

1) the genetically pre-determined kind (psychotherapy will not change these 
people)
2) the socialized kind eg perhaps those innately bisexual. (psychotherapy CAN 
change this people if they are motivated to change_

Certainly R. Moshe's comments could be appropos to case #2.  And probably most 
of those born-again types who "recovered" from their homosexual leanings were #2
types.

Rich Wolpoe



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

	I believe Rav Moshe has a teshuva in which he clearly states that
even haveng  homosexual feelings is not natural.I believe he says it is 
meridah. I also recall having heard in the name of the Steipler the exact 
opposite-that you can't blame someone for having these feelings. I have 
never seen the Steipler and I am not even sure if that was actually his 
opinion.

On 13 Dec 99, at 9:51, Daniel B. Schwartz wrote:

> There is no case per se.  Having seen the form, I know that it is invaid.
> NY case law requires that all agreements about the res marriage be executed
> in a "form acceptable to be recorded as a deed."  They must have  an
> acknowledgement page.  The form promulgated by the RCA contains no such
> form.

If THAT'S the only problem, that's a minor fix.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 13 Dec 99, at 14:15, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> I am throwing out a  cahllenge to our list to expand the cases where we know the
> text says one thing but hte practice is different.
> 
> EG the common minhag of NOT eating in a sukkah on Shmini Atzeres

Speak for yourself! I gave up eating in the Succah on Shmini 
Atzeres only when I made aliya and no longer had a sfeika d'yoma!

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

*********************


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