Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 172

Thursday, December 9 1999

• Re: Re[2]: co-opting music
• Re: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...
• Re: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...
• Re: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem
• Mesaye'a
• Re: co-opting music -- halakhic sources (finally)
• Re: Re[2]: co-opting music
• Re: Shirei Aku"m
• ortho children at risk
• Re: co-opting music -- halakhic sources (finally)
• RE: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...
• RE: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...
• Re[2]: co-opting music -- halakhic sources (finally)
• Re: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...
• Re[2]: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...
• RE: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...
• Re: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem
• Re: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...

Persoanlly, I like and have sung O du Meine Holden Abendstern.  I very
though provoking piece ineed.

----- Original Message -----
From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: co-opting music


>
>
> --- richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> > My opinion - there is music and there is music
> > <smile>
> >
> > Some music (EG Bach) seems to me to be a more pure
> > approach to G-d and does not
> > seem to have heavy Xtian-specific motifs
> >
> > OTOH, take Wagner. Even his own grandson ("Twilight
> > of the Wagners") finds his
> > music unredeemable.  Some music just has too much
> > "baggage" to redeem.
>
> Yes, Richard Wagner, "Yimach Shemo" was an
> Anti-Semite! But his music was as beautiful and
> majestic as was his face and soul ugly!
>
> One of my favorite pieces is "Ride of the Valkyries"
> as is his "Prelude to Lohengrin". I feel guilty for
> this but music is funny that way.  If you listen to a
> piece and you like it, then you find out the composer
> was an Anti-semite,  How are you supposed to unlike
> it?
>
> HM
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
> Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
>

I would like to clarify my thoughts on the subject in response to R.
Miller's description of them.  See below.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...
> R' Daniel Schwartz wrote <<< They are however afraid to take bold steps
> to help them.  They fear the missiles that might pass over their right
> shoulders if they did. >>> And R' Akiva Atwood's response was <<< No,
> they're afraid of being responsible for introducing mamzerim into Clal
> Yisroel. >>>
>
> I think R' Atwood misunderstood R' Schwartz, who (it seemed to me) is not
> taking sides pro or con regarding R' Rackman.

    Indeed I do not consider myself fit to render a Halachik judgement on
the subject.  As a personal matter however I do greatly admire R. Rackman
for his fortitude in this regard.  I think it sad that other rabbis display
a lack of both public forcefulness with regard to recalcitrant husbands, as
well as  a lack of willingess to be creative (ala the heter mechira devised
to deal with Shemittah, or the Heter Iskah to allow Jewish owned banks) in
finding a halachik solution to the Agunah problem.

R' Schwartz's complaint
> (it seems to me) is that certain rabbis should not be advising men to
> force their wives to give up their rights, and those rabbis should
> instead do things which they ARE capable of, such as denying those men
> any honors in shul etc etc etc, as specified in the seruv which they have
> violated.

    At the very least they should to that.  The community should also shun
such people and despise them.  And Rabbis should never simply say "there is
no answer" and other such surrenders.  I simply refuse to believe that G-d
who made heaven and earth, who inbued man with creativity and inteligence
presented the world with an unresovable problem so unjust.

----- Original Message -----
From: Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 1:42 AM
Subject: RE: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...


> >     Really?  Which poskim have putrightly said that?
>
> I heard privately from two poskim here in Jerusalem. Also, if:

    Heard it privately?  How is that to be verified?  Who are those poskim?
I would like to speak with them on the subject.
> > This issue has seen a tremendous paucity of honest
> > intellectual debate.
>
> It's NOT an intellectual issue -- it's a HALACHIC issue.
>
> IN an itlellectual issue, WE make the rules, and WE can change them. In a
> halachic issue, GOD made the rules, and our ability to change them is
> severely limited.

    I refer not to who makes the rules but to the proper context in which
such issues should be discussed.  Intelectual honesty is part Halachik
dialogue.

>
> > rabbis prepared to
> > admit that Judaism, the word of G-d is imperfect and allows
> > the gravest of injustice to abide?  I think not.
>
> Why not?

    Persoanlly, if that were true, that rabbonim would admit that G-d wants
these women to be agunot, and that there is absolutely no solution,
(assuming a thorough search for one) I would become an agnostic.

>
> And why is this the "gravest of injustice"? (I'm not belittling the pain
> they suffer, but there *are* other "injustices" -- Mamzerut, Kohanim
> marrying divorced women, Murder, etc. It depends on what you are involved
> in.)

    The issue is abuse. Abuse is the gravest injustice IMHO.  The issues to
which you refer above are born either of important issues of Jewish ritual
or some illcicit act again born of bien Adam leMakom.  The aguna problem
 as the issue of recalcitrant husbands has come to be known) is not a matter
of ritual.  It is born of abusive bahaviour.  I find in unfathomable that
rabbis and theologians would say that G-d wants people to eb abusive.

Why are we as a group incapable of discussing an issue in terms of itself?
Why must every controversial issue degenerate into a duscussion of thoedicy?
Indeed I did raise some theological concerns in my posts.  But I raised them
in order to shed some light on the importance of the issue and consequences
of a certain stream of thought.  Can we please stay on track?

----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Markel <moshiach@nauticom.net>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 2:41 AM
Subject: Re: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem


> Something that everyone is overlooking here is this:
>
> The Torah is perfect.
>
> Hashem knew what he was doing and foresaw that there will be agunos.
>
> Also, the halacha perscibes beating the mesarev.
>
> Although this is not always possible, social pressure and ostracism may be
> brought to bear.
>
> If everything has been tried to no avail, then we must assume that Hashem
> wanted it that way.
>
> YM
>
>
>
>
>
> Shlomo Godick wrote:
>
> > <<If you're not able to be part of the solution, at least don't defend
an
> > unjust system, or say that it's impossible to fix it.  The very least
I'd
> > expect from a "Torah" person is that he understand that there is a
> > problem!! >>
> >
> > Who doesn't understand that there is a problem?  But I think that we
> > have been trained by our highly technologized society to think that
every
> > problem has a solution.  As Jews we know that many problems have
> > only provisional or inadequate or *no* solutions (witness the
Arab-Israeli
> > conflict as a prime example) and that the true solution will arrive with
> > Bias Goel Tzedek.  Not that we should become quietist and stop trying.
> > But we should have the humility to understand that our efforts may not
> > bear fruit, that a systematic solution is not inevitable.  This
realization
> > should not be confused with cold-heartedness or apathy towards the
> > suffering women.   I think to accuse rabbanim of such is an incredible
> > avla (as if the accusers have a monopoly on compassion).
> >
> > Kol tuv,
> > Shlomo Godick
>

See Rav Reisman's sefer on ribbis Chapter 2 part 15 especially FN 25.

Moshe Luchins

Thanks to Eli Clark for all the info on music.

> In short, following Rema as interpreted by Bah, Halakhah draws a
> distinction between non-Jewish music generally and music specifically
> composed for use in Christian worship.  So Bah would permit Bach, but
> not Handel's Messiah.  And, as the hazzanim among us have already
> discussed, much traditional nussah can be traced to non-Jewish
> sources. All of this relates to incorporating such melodies into
> Jewish liturgy.

Interesting re Handel's "Messiah" -- large patches of the text are
straight from the Tanach.  I take it that the fact that the MUSIC was
composed specifically for use in church is the issue.  (Interestingly,
today it is often performed in concert halls at least as frequently as in
churches.)

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu

In a message dated 12/8/99 6:41:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< Some music (EG Bach) seems to me to be a more pure
 > approach to G-d and does not 
 > seem to have heavy Xtian-specific motifs
 > 
 > OTOH, take Wagner. Even his own grandson ("Twilight
 > of the Wagners") finds his 
 > music unredeemable.  Some music just has too much
 > "baggage" to redeem. 
 
 Yes, Richard Wagner, "Yimach Shemo" was an
 Anti-Semite! But his music was as beautiful and
 majestic as was his face and soul ugly!
 
 One of my favorite pieces is "Ride of the Valkyries"
 as is his "Prelude to Lohengrin". I feel guilty for
 this but music is funny that way.  If you listen to a
 piece and you like it, then you find out the composer
 was an Anti-semite,  How are you supposed to unlike
 it?
  >>

A couple of points here. Regarding Bach, there is no question that his church 
music was composed with a highly evolved Protestant Religious sensibility. He 
was a devout Lutheran, and would often inscribe his scores "For the Glory of 
God." (In German. :)) Another interesting thing about Bach is that he wrote 
over 600 Church Cantatas to be used in Sunday morning services. With that 
level of composing, he would often borow music from himself. So that a piece 
he wrote for a secular composition might show up in his church music as well. 
Just a cute point. I can't stop listening to any of his music. If Gentiles 
have Ruach Ha kodesh, he would be one of my candidates for receiving it.
I discussed Wagner extensively months ago. B'kitzur, some of the characters 
in his Operas would definitely be considered representations of a kind of 
primitive, Neo Pagan German Christianity, with strong anti Semitic overtones. 
(Especially in Parsifal) Leitmotifs associated with those characters would 
therefore represent specifically, in his mind as well, the anti Semitic ideas 
he wishes to represent. 
Problem is, I love his music too. 

Jordan Hirsch 
  

In a message dated 12/9/99 2:52:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
schachte@netvision.net.il writes:

<< Igros Moshe in YO"D B ch 111 (also ch 56 - please read them before
 equivocating) clearly prohibits listening to the words-and-music of any song
 which contains praise or favor to a foreign deity, not to mention the fact
 that a number of the expamples referred to in the posts are also liturgical.
 
 As to music-without-words, Reb Moshe (op cit) regards it as "only" mechu'ar,
 so one would presumably not be able to state a clear issur in that regard.
 But that would hardly justify the high regard (in the sense of "lo
 tecahnem") that appears on these pages.
 
 
 The "co-opting" issue is another one entirely, which higher brows than ours
 have wrinkled over. Even the *authorities* who are mekil, however, would
 draw the line at songs identified with the glory of a foreign deity.
 
 
 
 Yaakov Schachter >>

I appreciate R' Yaakovs halachic contribution. My point, and I think the 
point of others on the list, was whether or not there may be issues about 
this music even assuming that halcha may have allowed it. It goes, of course, 
to the bigger issues of how we, and even the most right wing here falls in 
this category, who function in the greater society, navigate the course 
through Christian America.

Jordan   

http://www.thejewishweek.com/jwcurr.exe?9912122     article on frum kids at
risk  in brooklyn

In a message dated 12/9/99 10:19:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM writes:

<< This query elicited some interesting musicological discussions, but
 (except for a brief post by R. Mordechai Torczyner) almost no discussion
 of the halakhic sources.  I make this observation because it illustrates
 what I think is a general trend away from substantive discussion that
 has overtaken Avodah, a list once dedicated to "high-level Torah
 discussion." >>

I think the reason in this case is that people, including myself, were keying 
into the first question over the second. Speaking just for myself, I pointed 
out specifically in my initial post that I was speaking strictly on a 
personal level. This itself raises the Halachic issue of how far do we go in 
validating subjective feelings, where halacha may not require the result of 
those feelings. If a posek is willing to say that co-opting Christian or 
secular music is muttar, does that mean it is still Ok to do? After all the 
sources are thrown about, and everyone goes down his or her list of Maareh 
Mkomos, are we no longer involved in a high level torah discussion? 
Obviously the Halachik considerations are paramount, but the original poster 
was asking more then that. It is silly for everyone to talk about what they 
experienced in fourth grade in public school at Christmas. It is arrogant to 
deny the necessity of any of that discussion at all.

Jordan Hirsch

> > I heard privately from two poskim here in Jerusalem. Also, if:

Make that three Poskim -- I spoke to another one this evening, one very
familiar with the NY scene.

>
>     Heard it privately?  How is that to be verified?

I assume you aren't accusing me of lying.

> Who are those poskim?
> I would like to speak with them on the subject.

Have you spoken with ANY poskim on the subject?

>     I refer not to who makes the rules but to the proper
> context in which
> such issues should be discussed.  Intelectual honesty is part Halachik
> dialogue.

The proper context is between people qualified to discuss the subject.

> of ritual.  It is born of abusive bahaviour.  I find in
> unfathomable that
> rabbis and theologians would say that G-d wants people to eb abusive.

They don't say that.

Akiva





===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

--- Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@columbia.edu> wrote:

> Okay, folks. You're right.  The religion is doing a
> wonderful job of
> solving this problem.  I hope you'll be as sanguine,
> and as smug and
> satisfied with your righteousness and your stalwart
> defense of the faith
> when (r"l) it happens to someone in your family.
> 
> If "they" can solve the problem re interest on
> loans, "they" can solve
> this one.  This one is not only ruining women's
> lives, it's destroying
> unborn generations -- all those babies not being
> born because those who
> would have been their mothers can't remarry.  If you
> don't care about the
> women, at least care about the population increase.
> 
> If you're not able to be part of the solution, at
> least don't defend an
> unjust system, or say that it's impossible to fix
> it.  The very least I'd
> expect from a "Torah" person is that he understand
> that there is a
> problem!!

 If the "they" in the above post is reffering to the
Gedolei HaDor, it boggles my mind to think that there
is so little regard for the ability of Gedolei HaDor
to have compassion. Can it be possible that people who
have devoted their lives struggling with every detail
of what they believe to be G-d's will are so uncaring
about thaeir fellow man. I DON'T THINK SO! It would be
tantamount to saying that G-d Himself, does care,
because ultimately this is what our Gedolim are
grappling with.

The phrase often touted by the Ortho-femme's is: "When
there is a rabbinic will there is a Rabbinic way."
Well, I'm sorry the Torah is not that malleable. 
Suppose all of Klal Israel decided to worship Avodah
Zarah.  Should the Rabbis find a rabbinc way?  Pretty
ridiculous, Huh?

There are just some things we just can't do anything
about. That doesn't mean that the Agunah issue is
unresolveable, it just means that as of yet we haven't
figured out how, in a way that is acceptable to Torah
Law.

We need to work on that.

There are plenty of areas where we can "question" what
thuis or that "Gadol" said or did, but please lets not
denigrate them for their supposed lack of compasion
when this is ceratinly not the case.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

let's conced that many poskim are on the record as being critical of this 
practice... however lurking underneath this is a big philosophical discussion of
mesorah.

This is a re-visit of the text vs. non-textual stuff all over again.

Background: MY yoreh Diah rebbe was a shochet himself.  He warned us NOT to 
faher shcotim, they would laugh at us becaus our book learning would be totally 
inaedquate to deal with the hands-on beikkos.  IOW learning chach and tz in 
yeshiva doesn't cut it regarding shechita <PUN>

My rebbe certainly was a mainstream yeshivish guy, but he als oknew that shchito
was mimetic as well as textual...Ad kahn background 

Hazzanus and Hazzanim have mesoros too.  The salient issues are - do we 
recgonize these mesoaros as having value or do we turn to Poskim and halachaists
exclusively?!

If we rely solely upon  halachic texts, we will find out that Chazzonim are 
decried all over the place for repeating words and singing secular tunes etc.

Despite this, they persisted in doing it for a few centuries anyway.

One anedcote to illustrate:

A Rav (NOT JBS) was talking about "Gadlu Lashmem Iti" and not being magbia 
kolo yoseir mei'shliach tzibbur.  IOW not to sing louder or softer than the 
Shatz because of Gadlu.

I flat out aksed him (after the shiur): "Rebbe ,perhaps the Shulchan Arush is 
referring to PITCH and not VOLUME" IOW that one should sing in the samee KEY as 
the shliach tzibbur (or dont' sing off key!) 

Bimchilas kovod hoRave Rav he had not a CLUE just what pitch (key)  and volume 
loundess) were and how that applied to Gadlu

This is imho the problem.  If you rely on texts, {only} we will have tone-deaf 
scholars telling chazzonim how to sing.  Perhaps poskim should be less 
"bookish" and realize that there is some basis for what Chazzonim do that did 
not make it into classic texts.  BH, People like Macy Nulman have begun to 
close the gap.

No doubt the Maharil as a Shliach Tzibbur was quite aware of these issues.  
However I sincerely doubt the typical rav or poseik UNDERSTANDS the Maharil w/o 
knowing the musical an litrugical subtexts, etc.

Good Hannukkah
Rich Wolpoe.



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<snip>

An interesting revelation I had a few years back, when thumbing through the 
Seridei Eish, was a teshuva, I do not remember which, where asked in the 
wake of the Nurenberg laws, whether secular concerts may be held in a Shul. 
The SE forbade such, with an interesting addendum en passant: that in 
general, concerts (of classical music!) "ein ruach chachomim nocha meihem".

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

In a message dated 12/9/99 3:49:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< 
 There are plenty of areas where we can "question" what
 thuis or that "Gadol" said or did, but please lets not
 denigrate them for their supposed lack of compasion
 when this is ceratinly not the case.
 
 HM >>
I would never question the compassion of this or that Gadol. Would it be a 
fair statement to say that for what we are sure are good reasons, the gedolim 
of this (and prior) generations have decided that their resources should not 
be focused on a manhattan project type approach to agunot? Further is it 
"wrong" for lay people to "lobby" the gedolim to change this prioritization 
decision or to ask what would klal yisrael have to "give up" if the resource 
prioritization were changed?

Kol Tuv
Joel Rich

Perhaps rabbis are not merely sitting on their hands when they hsistate to free 
Agunos, Perhaps they are wrestling with issues of ishus <pun> and mamzeirus

And talking about secular music consider Ricky Nelson's "Fools Rush in where 
wise men fear to tread"

Rich W.

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<snip>

    Indeed I do not consider myself fit to render a Halachik judgement on
the subject.  As a personal matter however I do greatly admire R. Rackman 
for his fortitude in this regard.  I think it sad that other rabbis display 
a lack of both public forcefulness with regard to recalcitrant husbands, as 
well as  a lack of willingess to be creative (ala the heter mechira devised 
to deal with Shemittah, or the Heter Iskah to allow Jewish owned banks) in 
finding a halachik solution to the Agunah problem.

<snip>

> well as  a lack of willingess to be creative (ala the heter
> mechira devised
> to deal with Shemittah, or the Heter Iskah to allow Jewish
> owned banks) in
> finding a halachik solution to the Agunah problem.

The Heter Mechira is a major problem, with large sections of the
Mizrachi/NRP not holding by it (It goes without saying that the
Yeshiva/Chassidic world doesn't hold by it).

>
>     At the very least they should to that.  The community
> should also shun such people and despise them.

Agreed. And in many communities that is what happens.

> And Rabbis should never simply say "there is
> no answer" and other such surrenders.

They aren't saying that. They just think that making mamzerim *isn't* the
solution.

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
 
> The Torah teaches us not to favor the poor man over the rich man -- which
> would seem to indicate that compassion has *no* bearing on the *facts* case.
 
> OTOH, if there are two *equally valid* decisions that could be made based on
> the facts, *then* compassion can come into play.

I would agree that compassion has little/no bearing in judicial decision, at 
least according to this understanding of the mitzvah.

OTOH, that says nothing about *legislation*.  Compassion has often been
a motivating factor in legislation: viz the discussion on Takkanot.

While the Ragen article was arguing for greater compassion in judicial
proceedings, and among rabbis who may or may not be able to initiate
judical proceedings, there also may be a solution through legislation,
as R' Rackman has tried to do, as R' Gershom did 1000 years ago.

JJB

From: Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 4:11 PM
Subject: RE: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...


> > well as  a lack of willingess to be creative (ala the heter
> > mechira devised
> > to deal with Shemittah, or the Heter Iskah to allow Jewish
> > owned banks) in
> > finding a halachik solution to the Agunah problem.
>
> The Heter Mechira is a major problem, with large sections of the
> Mizrachi/NRP not holding by it (It goes without saying that the
> Yeshiva/Chassidic world doesn't hold by it).

    And the Heter Iskah?  Also, please note that no one as far as I know
decries the Heter Mechira as being marbeh ovrei aveirah as the Rackman bet
din has been.  Experts in Halacha and rabbis seem far more concrened with
many other issues than with this one.  For example in how many congregations
it the Misheberach for aggunot recited?  I have encountered a fair amount of
hostility when  I ask rabbis why they don't say it.  I'm told that that
issue is too "polotical" or "conroversial" etc.  Why ?
>
> >
> >     At the very least they should to that.  The community
> > should also shun such people and despise them.
>
> Agreed. And in many communities that is what happens.

    HA!!!

>
> > And Rabbis should never simply say "there is
> > no answer" and other such surrenders.
>
> They aren't saying that. They just think that making mamzerim *isn't* the
> solution.

    Be very careful of your accusations

>
> Akiva
>
>
> ===========================
> Akiva Atwood
> POB 27515
> Jerusalem, Israel 91274
>
>

*********************


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