Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 166

Tuesday, December 7 1999

• RE: Israeli seminary expenses
• Re: Avodah V4 #164
• mild quibble re agunot
• Tenth Man
• Re: Birkas Ha'Ro'eh
• RE: Israeli seminary expenses
• Re: Tenth Man
• Episcopalian heaven
• Fw: Fw: Interview Questions on Genetic Engineering (very long)
• Re: The Tenth Man
• Re: co-opting music
• Re: co-opting music
• Re: co-opting music
• Re: co-opting music
• Re: co-opting music
• Re: Tenth Man
• Re: co-opting music

--- Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Well, I guess that settles it.  We should all move
> to
> > Israel and than all of us can have "Free" tuition
> for
> > our daughters.  :)
> > 
> > HM
> > 
> 
> 
> It's not *free* -- it's just much less than the
> *american* price.

The point of my feeble half attempt at humor
(apparently not well made) was that it is American
tuitions which help to subsidize Israeli students. If
everybody moved there then tuitions would have to go
up substantially.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:16:07 +0200
> From: "Carl M. Sherer" <csherer@netvision.net.il>
> Subject: Jewish Observer Porblem Children Issue
> 
>  Alternatively, does anyone know of a sforim store in
> Yerushalayim that carries the JO? 


Sifrei HaHar at Mishkelov 13 in Har Nof has it
Open from 16-19 but you should call first 6518121

reuven

RMB responds to my comment on solutions to the aguna problem:

> Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@columbia.edu> writes:
> :> She does. As is obvious from the article, she is a vocal proponent of
> :> the "If the Rabbis *really* wanted to they could solve the aguna
> :> problem -- since they don't, obviously they don't want to" school of
> :> feminism.
> 
> : Hmmm... If I were a visiting Martian, with no axe at all, I'd wonder why
> : they hadn't solved it by now.
> 
> The question presumes a Conservative attitude -- that halachah is
> infinitely malleable, and that any desired conclusion can be fitted
> into it.

First, that question does not necessarily presume the "Conservative"
attitude you decry.  Second, not all Conservatives believe that halacha is
infinitely malleable.

You do go on to address the issue:

> However, from what I've seen of mesechtos Kiddushin and Kesuvos, I'd
> be surprised if that halachah really has no solution for this. So why
> no solutions yet? Not for lack of trying -- a quick survey of halachic
> periodicals can show that the Rabinic will is there. I think it's just
> simpler: we underestimate the length of time halachic change works.
> How long was it from the time poor people found themselves unable to
> solve their cashflow problems (because lenders prefered lending to
> goyim and getting interest) until the heter iska was found?
> 
> Perhaps your martian just hasn't been around long enough to be aware
> of precedent.

Um, I don't care how long the Martian has to wait.  I care how long the
agunot have to wait.

Freda Birnbaum

This is a real problem in smaller communities.

I can understand people being upset when being called for a minyan when 
there is another minyan a block or two away.

But in communities such as ours where the MO shul has a morning minyan 
recently things have been tough.  On Monday through Friday we have been 
lucky if we make a minyan once or twice.  We are thrilled when we have a 
visitor show up.

For evening minyan at Chabad when there are classes that evening there 
are no problems, but other evening we have to make calls.  It is 
frustrating to have to wait, but if that is the only way to have a minyan 
it is worth it.  That is the feeeling of the core of regulars.

In our case the most frustrating thing is that if not for the animosity 
between the Rabbis of the two shuls there would be no problems.  The 
Chabad Rabbi only shows up for morning minyan once a month or so. The MO 
Rabbi will not step foot inside the Chabad House.   While some of us  go 
to both every day, if those who do not go just because of where it is, 
would go, there would be minyanim morning and evening every day.


Harry J. Weiss
hjweiss@netcom.com

The Sharei Teshuva (siman 671 seif 7) quotes the Chida that the chazan who
lights in
shul, the first night shouldn't repeat Shehecheyanu at home unless he is
being motzi the rest of his family. Rav Schachter (in YU) said, in the name
of the Rav, that this should apply for "She'asa nisim" too. (I'm not sure if
this was le'halacha). Although nobody is yotzei the lighting in shul they
are still "neiros channuka" and therefore the mevarech was yotzei the birkas
haro'eh and shehecheyanu and should not repeat it at home.


> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:55:12 -0500
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: Re: Birkas Ha'Ro'eh
>
> Question: Does anyone discuss the case of saying Birka haroeh on neiros
Beis
> Haskensses?
>
> Also, re: Nieros Beis haknesses:  isther any hakpodo to have them burn for
30
> minutes?  And is that hakpodo a function of the brochoh?
>
> Rich Wolpoe
>

>
> The point of my feeble half attempt at humor
> (apparently not well made) was that it is American
> tuitions which help to subsidize Israeli students. If
> everybody moved there then tuitions would have to go
> up substantially.
>

Only *some* sems have American programs -- and the tuition isn't higher for
the schools that don't.

In fact, the tuition in the schools that have American programs might
actually be higher, since they have to gear their facilities/programs to
"American Standards" (Fancier meals, Room Service, Wake-up service,
manicures, etc... :-)

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

As one who lives one block from shul and in our earlier years was often 
called to make the late maariv minyan (even though I had already davened 
maariv with the regular mincha/maariv minyan), I often wondered whether there 
is a "chiyuv" of some sort to go if called.  While I generally was happy to 
go to make the minyan, there were times that I was in the middle of doing 
something(eg homework/learning with kids...) that I would end up leaving for 
a half hour to go, wait for another 2 or 3 to show up and then davening 
itself. Would I have been within my "rights"(in the broad sense -meaning not 
just is it halachically acceptable, is it preferable?) to ask them to call 
someone else.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

PS I recall a tshuva(R' Moshe perhaps) that there is a difference between 
having a full minyan of daveners versus 10 men of which some have already 
davened.  Anyone recall this?

Im b'episcopalians askinan, then I feel obligated to contribute the
following (courtesy of Rabbi Mordechai Kaminetsky's weekly Drasha):

In the early 1900s a Rabbi who lived in the tenements on the Manhattan's
Lower East Side had to attend a City function at which a notoriously
anti-Semitic Episcopalian Minister was also present.

The Minister turned to the Rabbi and with a sinister smile remarked, "What
a coincidence! It was just last night that I dreamt I was in Jewish heaven."

"Jewish heaven?" inquired the Rabbi. "What is it like in Jewish heaven?"

"Oh!" replied the priest. "In Jewish heaven the streets were filled with
Jews.  Children, their faces dirty, shirts untucked, and clothes unpressed
were playing in the dirt. Women were haggling with fish-vendors as Jewish
beggars tried to interrupt, asking for handouts. The clotheslines stretched
across the roads with the dripping wash mixing with the dust below to add
more mud to the existing mess on the ground. And of course," he added with
a sinister laugh, "rabbis were running back and forth with large Talmudic
volumes tucked under their arms!"

The Rabbi pursed his lips and then replied, "that is truly amazing. You see
I dreamt last night that I was in Episcopalian heaven."

"Really?" the Minister asked "And pray tell me what is it like in
Episcopalian heaven?"

"It is magnificent. The streets shine as if they have recently been washed.
 The homes are exquisitely lined up in perfect symmetry, each with a small
garden that has beautiful flowers and a perfectly manicured lawn. The homes
were freshly painted and they sparkled in the sunlight!"

The Minister beamed. "And what about the people? Tell me about the people!"

The Rabbi smiled, looked the Minister right in the eye, and tersely stated,
"There were no people."


Kol tuv,
Shlomo Godick

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.

----- Original Message -----
From: <micross@gpu.com>
To: Jewish Exploration <JewishExploration@listbot.com>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Interview Questions on Genetic Engineering (very long)


> Jewish Exploration
>
>
>
> I'm sorry but I must reply to this but there is an awful lot of
misdirection in
> this article.  A lot of the language is very similar to that used by
> fear-mongering groups in the States and that rubs the wrong way.
>
> " -Scientific research speculates that genetically engineered foods may
have
> > adverse health effects on humans."
>
> {MR} When electricity first became available, there was the fear of
"adverse
> health effects on humans" and dummy plugs were developed for wall sockets
to
> prevent the electricity from "leaking out" and collecting in an invisible
pool
> on the floor.  Remember that electricity replaced gas supplied to burners
on the
> wall.  This is just one of many scientific and medical changes that have
been
> challenged by people who are either technically unknowledgable or who have
a
> separate agenda (for example, a vegetarian who does not believe in eating
> animals might well try to scare others away from eating 'potentially
dangerous'
> altered animals.  That person's focus is not on the altered animal. It is
on
> convincing others to not eat ANY animal.)
>
> " -If a gene from a non-kosher animal is used in the process of
genetically
>
> > breeding a species (e.g. as a catalyst) then can the final product
> > still be considered kosher?"
>
> {MR} The concept of kosher, as stated in the Torah (Leviticus XI, verse
3), is
> (Hertz translation) "Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is wholly
cloven-footed
> and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that may ye eat."  The pig is
forbidden
> (verse 7) "because he parteth the hoof, and is cloven-footed, but cheweth
not
> the cud".  A genetically altered animal that meets the good criteria and
can
> reproduce among others of its kind is considered kosher (see the beefalo -
a
> cross between the cow and the buffalo) and should be even if a pig gene
was
> involved (not involved with the beefalo) because it is the resulting
properties
> that count.
>
> " In order to prepare a kosher product, all machinery and utensils used
> > in the process must also be kosher. For a non-food item to be kosher
> > can not have come in contact with non-kosher foods or other non-
> > kosher materials."
>
> {MR} Whereas this statement may be true, it is irrelevant to whether the
food is
> genetically engineered or not.  An example of diversion.
>
> "> Engineered crops are bred to be aesthetically and reproductively
different
> > from their organic cousins; traits that can be considered noticeably
> imbued
> > in otherwise kosher foods."
>
> {MR} They are also bred to grow in hostile areas and to not spoil on the
way to
> the market.  Israel has developed a tomato that can grow with saline water
> whereas tomatoes normally require clear water.  In addition, tomatoes have
been
> bred to have thicker skins to allow transport without crushing.  They do
not
> taste as good as tomatoes from 30 years ago (or is it that my taste buds
don't
> work as well as they did 30 years ago?) but their nutrition is now found
> year-round.  I mention the tomato but the same thing goes on with many
other
> fruits (the tomato is technically a fruit) and vegetables.
>
> "> Text-Based Concerns Not Having to Do With the Laws of Kashrut
> > Leviticus 22:24 states "And that which is mauled or crushed or torn you
> > should not offer up unto the Lord; nor should you do this in your own
> land."
>
>  -Can genetically engineered foods be considered 'mauled'? If so, are they
> > only considered unfit to 'offer up to the Lord', or are they also
> > considered unfit for human consumption?
> >
> > -We are specifically commanded not to maul or crush in our land.  If
> > genetic engineering can be considered mauling or crushing, then does
> > it mean that we are prohibited from  practicing it at all? "
>
> {MR} The Hertz translation reads "That which hath its stones bruised, or
> crushed, or torn, or cut, ye shall not offer unto the L-rd; neither shall
ye do
> thus in your land".  It is very clear from the Hertz translation that what
is
> forbidden is the gelding of animals.
>
> {MR} Yes, you can consider genetic engineering to be "mauling" if you
like.  You
> can also consider it to be a five-legged dog.  It doesn't make it a
correct
> assumption.
>
> "> After each one of the seven days of creation, G-d proclaimed that what
he
> > had created that day was "good."
> >
> > -If all that G-d created is good, do we as humans have a right to tamper
> > with it?"
>
> {MR} G-d also created diseases and gave man the knowledge to develop
treatments
> to "tamper" with these diseases.  Therefore, the answer to your question
is a
> resounding YES.
>
> "> -Is it more likely that  a selection of some, rather than all,
genetically
> > engineered foods would be considered non-kosher based on their
contents?"
>
> "-If it is decided that genetic engineering is morally wrong, is it
> > enough to disqualify any genetically engineered product from being
> > considered kosher?"
>
> "> -Can all of the questions asked about genetic engineering also apply to
> the
> > "improvement" of animals and plants through crossbreeding (e.g.
apricots,
> > donkeys)?  If so, would the same restrictions apply to the products of
> > crossbreeding and genetic engineering?"
>
> {MR} I don't know how to break the news to you but most of the food you
eat has
> been genetically engineered.  The domesticated animals (cows, sheep,
chickens,
> etc have all been adjusted to resist diseases.  Almost all apples are
> cross-breeds, corn and wheat have been made blight resistant, etc.
Running to
> so-called "organic" foodstuffs makes no difference.  "Organic" just refers
to
> the type of animal feed, fertilizers, and pesticides that are used.  That
> free-range, organic chicken has probably been engineered to mature faster
and to
> have more white meat.
>
> "concerns remain about the effects of genetic engineering on ecosystem
> > health."
>
> Concern remained about ships being made of metal and some actually failed
(e. g.
> the Titanic) but that does not mean that we abandon the concept.
>
> A greater concern for the ecosystem in Israel is the turning over of any
more
> land to the PA.
>
> Michael Ross
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, write to JewishExploration-unsubscribe@listbot.com
> ______________________________________________________________________
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Use coupon code TB109901A0 when ordering, just click here.
> http://www.listbot.com/links/ashford
>

Josh Hoexter offered some practical suggestion on how to minimize the
pressure put on a person when asking him to make the minyan. But I must
disagree with his comments that

<<< In my experience, it is important for those who live in communities
where minyanim are frequently short to remember "holeich v'oseh - chosid"
and not be frustrated when the "tsenter" doesn't show up. >>>

In *my* experience it is important for people everywhere to concern
themselves more with their own mitzvos and the other guy's comfort.
Disaster results when we rely on the other guy's attitude towards
mitzvos, or insensitively remind him what his attitudes should be.

Akiva Miller

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Why pay more to get Web access?
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In a message dated 12/6/99 8:13:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, DFinchPC@aol.com 
writes:

<< Chestnuts roasting on the open fire? >>

Was not written by Irving Berlin. Try Mel Torme.

By the way, I am very wary about Jews "getting into" Christian Holiday music. 
I do not feel that way about church music in general, when listened to in a 
neutral environment. But something about those carols makes me uneasy, like 
its being shoved down our throats  so that we may be reminded just whose 
country this is. 
No halacha here, just a gut feeling.

Jordan

Daniel B. Schwartz wrote:


> does a melody acquire a status of "holiness" or "sacrilege?"  By way of
> analogy, there is a concept in Jewish music of the "MiSinai" melodies, which
> are : Kol Nidre/Aleinu/Avot, Tal/Geshem, and Neilah.  Those melodies can
> never be abandoned as a matter of Halacha.  But how far does this idea
> apply?


What are these melodies, and why can't they be abandoned?

I don't know that I've ever heard them.


---sam

I disagree.  I am a great fan of Adeste Fidelis, Ave Maria, The Little
Drummer Boy, and my favorite of them all. . .O Holy Night.  I find them to
be noble music born of great spirit.

DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: <DFinchPC@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: co-opting music


> In a message dated 99-12-06 17:48:35 EST, you write:
>
> << My
>  question is two fold:
>      1.    How bad is it to like and enjoy the music of this season?  Do I
>  place my soul in peril my doing so?
>
>      2.    What would be the prohibition, assuming there is one, of
co-opting
>  some of the nicer melodies and using in our own liturgy.   >>
>
> First, the best music of the season is already overwhelmingly Jewish.
> Chestnuts roasting on the open fire? I'm dreaming of a white X-mas? Irving
> Berlin. O, Tannenbaum, O Tannenbaum? That's Yankel Tannenbaum. So go
ahead,
> enjoy.
>
> Second, traditional and liturgical X-mas music that is not especially
Jewish
> -- i.e., Bach, Mozart, Verdi, Gregorian chants, etc. -- is missing
something.
> It's too bland and artificial, even when (especially when) it is fancied
up
> with harps and choirs and grand orchestral arrangements. No clarinet, no
> fiddle, no yiddle, no tears, just flat. Gospel music and old Delta blues
are
> much better, if one needs sustenance from that side of the coin. My
mother,
> who grew up very Jewish in Mobile, Alabama, long ago, can tell you about
the
> emotional link between real Gospel and real Yiddishkeit. No such link
exists
> with O Carolling, O Carolling We Shall Go.
>
> David Finch

As I stated in my previous post the MiSinai Melodies are:  Avot (for the
High Holidays)/Aleinu (for the high Holidays)/Kol Nidre (all of which are
based on the same motif), The Kadeishim and Avot from Tal and Geshem (which
are alike), and the Kadish and Avot from Neliah.  Anyone who has worshipped
in an Orthodox Schul at the times that the above were prayed, and heard a
chazan or ba'a' tefilah of even minimal competance has heard those tunes.
The prihibition on changing those melodies can be found in Orach Chaim §614
(?), in the laws of Rosh Hashana and that period of the year.  The Ramah
states trthe prohibition clearly.  It is based on a ps'ak of the Maharil.
DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: Sammy Ominsky <sambo@charm.net>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: co-opting music


> Daniel B. Schwartz wrote:
>
>
> > does a melody acquire a status of "holiness" or "sacrilege?"  By way of
> > analogy, there is a concept in Jewish music of the "MiSinai" melodies,
which
> > are : Kol Nidre/Aleinu/Avot, Tal/Geshem, and Neilah.  Those melodies can
> > never be abandoned as a matter of Halacha.  But how far does this idea
> > apply?
>
>
> What are these melodies, and why can't they be abandoned?
>
> I don't know that I've ever heard them.
>
>
> ---sam
>

I believe RSO was protesting that this seems to be an Ashkenaz-centric
perspective.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: co-opting music


> As I stated in my previous post the MiSinai Melodies are:  Avot (for the
> High Holidays)/Aleinu (for the high Holidays)/Kol Nidre (all of which are
> based on the same motif), The Kadeishim and Avot from Tal and Geshem
(which
> are alike), and the Kadish and Avot from Neliah.  Anyone who has
worshipped
> in an Orthodox Schul at the times that the above were prayed, and heard a
> chazan or ba'a' tefilah of even minimal competance has heard those tunes.
> The prihibition on changing those melodies can be found in Orach Chaim
§614
> (?), in the laws of Rosh Hashana and that period of the year.  The Ramah
> states trthe prohibition clearly.  It is based on a ps'ak of the Maharil.

RKG Miller wrote:

>>The people who live close to the minyan tend to be called upon for this 
great mitzvah unduly frequently, and a certain amount of resentment can 
build up sometimes.>>

Sometimes reluctance and resentment goes away.  My grandfather, an avid 
zionist and anti-religionist, lived next door to a shul and was frequently 
called to be a tenth man. He only went out of a sense of communal 
obligation.  After over a decade he slowly became frum.


RR Wolpoe wrote:

>>When I run a Mincho Minyan and it's late, I switch to a heicho dedusho.  
Some people have argued with me, but I guess those expiernces color my 
thinking about making people wait on MY behalf for MY chumro>>

I have the problem of how many people I have to wait for before starting 
chazaras hashatz.  I believe it is black on white in the Shulchan Aruch 
that without ten people who have finished davenning it is almost a berachah 
levatalah (some allow with nine) but there is always pressure to start 
before that.  The obvious answer is to daven very slowly so that I am the 
last to finish.  However, when you have a minyan metzumtzam and one guy is 
a v-e-r-y l-o-n-g davenner that is not possible.

It's not in 614. Could you please check the reference and let us know where
it is? I am fascintated by the concept. Thanks.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: co-opting music


> The prihibition on changing those melodies can be found in Orach Chaim
§614
> (?), in the laws of Rosh Hashana and that period of the year.  The Ramah
> states trthe prohibition clearly.  It is based on a ps'ak of the Maharil.

*********************


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