Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 164

Monday, December 6 1999

• Fw: Episcopalians & the Earth
• Re: Problem kids
• Jewish Observer Porblem Children Issue
• RE: Jewish Observer Porblem Children Issue
• Birkas Ha'Ro'eh
• Problem kids
• Re: Problem kids
• cynicism; agunot
• Re: agunahs in baltimore
• Re: Problem kids - ADD
• Re[2]: Problem kids -ADD
• Re[2]: Problem kids
• Mikketz
• Re: Birkas Ha'Ro'eh
• Re: Problem Kids
• The Tenth Man
• Hamakom yinachem - for the non-religious?

After the prev. series of msg. on the issues of environmentalism on one
hand, and the connection with church personnel on the other, and esp. in
view of the Episcopalian drive to christianize the jewish people, I think
the following, which I got from another jewish list, should be of interest

Shoshana L. Boublil

-----Original Message-----
From: Arthur Waskow <Awaskow@AOL.COM>
To: KOL-CHAI@JTSA.EDU <KOL-CHAI@JTSA.EDU>
Date: יום שני 06 דצמבר 1999 06:39
Subject: Episcopalians & the Earth


>  From the Los Angeles Times:
>
>                 Episcopalians Plan Ecology Campaign
>                                                            Religion:
>The convention's vote, the church's first such U.S. commitment,
>                                                         approves
>broad-based program focusing on environment.
>
>                                                         By LARRY B.
STAMMER,
>Times Religion Writer
>
>
>
>RIVERSIDE--In a sign of growing environmental activism by religious
>bodies,
>                                                         the six-county
>Los Angeles Episcopal Diocese on Saturday launched a yearlong
>                                                         program calling
>upon its 147 parishes and 85,000 members to take unprecedented
>                                                         steps to
>safeguard the natural world.
>                                                              The plan,
>approved on a voice vote at the diocese's annual convention, calls for
>                                                         study and
>actions, ranging from making church buildings more energy efficient to
>                                                         overcoming
>"self-centered greed" and leading simpler lives that will put less
>strain
>                                                         on the earth's
>resources.
>                                                              The vote
>was believed to make the Los Angeles diocese the first Episcopal
>                                                         diocese in the
>country to embark on so sweeping a program of environmental study
>                                                         and action.
>                                                              The action
>reflects growing recognition among people from many religious
>                                                         traditions of
>mounting environmental problems. Growing numbers of scientists
>                                                         have warned of
>adverse consequences from climate change, ozone depletion, plant
>                                                         and animal
>species extinction and air and water pollution.
>                                                              National
>umbrella groups, among them the National Religious Partnership for
>                                                         the
>Environment, the Evangelical Environmental Network and the Committee on
>                                                         Jewish Life and
>the Environment have been active in coaxing local congregations to
>                                                         become involved
>in environmental issues, not out of political motives but as a
>                                                         religious
>response to caring for God's creation.
>                                                              "The
>divine spirit is sacramentally present in creation, which is therefore
>to be
>                                                         treated with
>reverence, respect and gratitude," the resolution said.
>
>Nonetheless, church leaders admit that in many cases religious
>institutions have
>                                                         bought into the
>predominate consumer culture for too long.
>                                                              The Rt.
>Rev. Frederick H. Borsch, Los Angeles Episcopal bishop, did not
>                                                         minimize the
>difficulties in rallying people to environmental causes, even in the
>                                                         name of God.
>"This is the kind of theme that is very easy for us all to give lip
>                                                         service to,"
>Borsch said at a panel discussion.
>                                                              "We know
>there are forces in our world--and even forces within us--that do turn
>                                                         us into goats
>rather than being able to be true environmentalists," Borsch said.
>                                                         "Expecting
>human beings to be environmentalists is like expecting goats to be
>                                                         gardeners."
>                                                              Action, he
>said, will require nothing less than a conversion experience. "What
>                                                         we truly need
>if we are going to be repairers of the world and be responsible . . . is
>
>                                                         a new view of
>ourselves. Truly, we need a conversion. A little adjustment is not
>                                                         what is called
>for."
>                                                              Spiritual
>renewal as a path to environmental renewal was a theme underscored
>                                                         Saturday by the
>Most Rev. Frank T. Griswold III, presiding bishop and primate of
>                                                         the national
>church.
>                                                              "We are
>called to an asceticism of simplicity," said Griswold. "Where do we
>                                                         contribute to
>the wounding of the world? Where do we contribute to the repair of
>                                                         the world?"
>Griswold added that it is incumbent upon Christians to inform
>                                                         themselves of
>the problems in the world, including its environmental crisis.
>                                                              The
>resolution approved Saturday calls for a year of study leading up to
>                                                         adoption of
>specific actions outlined in the resolution.
>                                                              Among
>other points, the resolution urges individuals and parishes to recycle,
>to
>                                                         lead simpler
>lives and to eat foods that put less strain on the Earth's resources. It
>
>                                                         also urges the
>purchase of products made of renewable and recyclable materials
>                                                         whenever
>possible.
>                                                              At its
>heart, delegates were told, the environmental crisis is a crisis of the
>spirit,
>                                                         one that
>requires what Borsch called gifts of the spirit--patience, self-control
>and
>                                                         generosity.
>                                                              Saturday's
>vote came just days after violent demonstrations disrupted a meeting
>                                                         of the World
>Trade Organization in Seattle. There, activists from labor unions,
>                                                         environmental
>groups and religious communities, not involved in the violence,
>                                                         charged that
>world trade policies are costing Americans their jobs and degrading the
>                                                         environment.
>Echoing that concern, the Los Angeles diocese resolution commits
>                                                         the church to a
>"just and fair trading system both for people and the environment."
>                                                              "Unbridled
>capitalism, selfishness and greed cannot continue to be allowed to
>                                                         pollute,
>exploit and destroy what remains of the earth's indigenous habitats,"
>the
>                                                         resolution
>suggests. "The future of human beings and all life on Earth hangs in
>                                                         balance as a
>consequence of the present unjust economic structures, the injustice
>                                                         existing
>between the rich and the poor, the continuing exploitation of the
>natural
>                                                         environment and
>the threat of nuclear self-destruction."
>                                                              One
>delegate, however, questioned the resolution's criticism of capitalism.
>"I
>                                                         don't know
>about the people in this room, but how do you equate capitalism with
>                                                         selfishness and
>greed?" asked Ron Morris, a parishioner at All Saints Episcopal
>                                                         Church in
>Riverside. "Who here does not have some interest in a capitalist
>                                                         enterprise?"
>
>                                                         Copyright 1999
>

I think it's in the perek Arvei Pesachim in the gemara where Rav had a
son who was *nisht togedacht* not too successful in learning so he had
him learn a trade and go into business.

The problem isn't new.

IF everything works out, our research team may have a solution for the ADDH
and learning disabled child and have him integrated into regular schools.

Josh

Does anyone know how to get the JO articles on problem children 
on line? Alternatively, does anyone know of a sforim store in 
Yerushalayim that carries the JO? I checked with both sforim 
stores in the town (in New Jersey) where I stayed last week and 
they did not have it.

-- Carl (finally back in E"Y)


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Try the Feldheim bookstore on Strauss, or Pomerants by HaMashbir.

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood                 
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274  

> 
> Does anyone know how to get the JO articles on problem children 
> on line? Alternatively, does anyone know of a sforim store in 
> Yerushalayim that carries the JO? I checked with both sforim 
> stores in the town (in New Jersey) where I stayed last week and 
> they did not have it.
> 

<< The Rogatchover holds that ba'zman ha'zeh one does not make birkas ha'ro'eh
(k'medumeh li a chiddush gadol) because there are two gedarim in the neiros:
1. The Mitzva; 2. Pirsum Ha'Nes. He holds that "me'she'as sakono" = the time
of "botlo Megillas Ta'anis" and that at that point the geder of pirsum
ha'nes of Chanuka fell by the wayside just as the rest of the celebrations
of nissim in MT did. Therefore, there is no more a chiyuv l'hadlik b'pesach
ha'bayis, nor the corresponding birkas ha'ro'eh. Just saw this yesteday
cited in the "Kelalei Ha'Torah V'Ha'Mitzva". >>

Obviously not every one agrees. The Brisker minhag is to make the beracha
of she-asa nissim between the first and second candles so that one sees
the first candle and it also counts as birchat haroeh.
I am told that Rav Lichtenstein paskened that a soldier who is in the
field and has a family lighting for him should nevertheless say birchat
ha-roeh if he happens to see a chanuka candle.

Eli Turkel

Alan davidson writes:
<<
The truth is there are probably no more or no fewer problem kids than there >>
were in the past (lots of frum kids went off the derech 20-40 years ago as >>
well -- not all of whom went to public schools).  This does not mean that >>
there is nothing we can do to stop it.  As for the rising number of ADD kids 
>>
it is due to two things: (a) increased TV watching -- albeit not in Jewish >>
Observer-type families; and (b) the self-interest of pharmaceutical >>
companies to define a problem to be remedied by one of their products.>>

    I'm not sure of Mr. Davidson's experience with ADD children, but I can 
tell you from experience that it is real and the increase in the number of 
identified cases is because the medical profession finally recognized that 
ADD kids can't be helped by labeling them as "bad", or by yelling or cajoling 
them to "pay attention" or "stop day dreaming". As for pharmaceutical 
intervention, again by experience I can tell you that they can and do work 
miracles.
    As for TV watching causing ADD, unless you have some rresearch to back up 
such statements, I suggest that you consign such statements to the realm of 
superstition. (like studying the small texts found in sifrei kodesh causes 
blindness).
    And as for any link between ADD and children straying from derech haemet, 
that is just too absurd for words.
    David I. Cohen

In a message dated 12/6/99 8:43:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
BDCOHEN613@aol.com writes:

<< And as for any link between ADD and children straying from derech haemet, 
 that is just too absurd for words. >>

Not so far fetched if the child in question is not diagnosed properly, and 
all he hears is he is "lazy," "bad" "irresponsible" etc. I would not want to 
be part of the school or community or family that treated me that way either.

Jordan 

In Digest v4n163,

David Herskovic makes some very telling points about "problem kids".  His
"cynicism" is not really the point.  The JO issue _is_ an excellent start.

Akiva Atwood describes Naomi Ragen's [sp?] attitudes:

> > but from her tone it's clear she has an axe to grind.
> 
> She does. As is obvious from the article, she is a vocal proponent of
> the "If the Rabbis *really* wanted to they could solve the aguna
> problem -- since they don't, obviously they don't want to" school of
> feminism.

Hmmm... If I were a visiting Martian, with no axe at all, I'd wonder why
they hadn't solved it by now.

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu

While I agree with Mrs. (Ms.?) Ragen's viewpoiny, I also have a more basic
desire as well; for many rabbis involved in Gittin to cease being corrupt.

DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 1999 1:58 AM
Subject: RE: agunahs in baltimore


> > But to the real point.  I'm not familiar with Ms Ragen's work
> > but from her
> > tone it's clear she has an axe to grind.
>
> She does. As is obvious from the article, she is a vocal proponent of the
> "If the Rabbis *really* wanted to they could solve the aguna problem --
> since they don't, obviously they don't want to" school of feminism.
>
> Akiva
>
> ===========================
> Akiva Atwood
> POB 27515
> Jerusalem, Israel 91274
>
>
>

FWIW, My understanding is that TV ADD doesn't CAUSE ADD, but it does exacerbate 
it.

It's like a person with ulcers eating very spicy foods.

If ADD Can be cured by therapy,then TV would be antithetical to that cure.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<snip>
    As for TV watching causing ADD, unless you have some rresearch to back up 
such statements, I suggest that you consign such statements to the realm of 
superstition. (like studying the small texts found in sifrei kodesh causes 
blindness).
    And as for any link between ADD and children straying from derech haemet, 
that is just too absurd for words.
    David I. Cohen

See the very enlighteneing book "Driven to Distraciton" 

In that book, ADD is compared to near-sightedness.  You wouldn't yell at a kid 
for now seeing the blackborad if all they need was a pair of glasses!  So why 
yell at them for their difficulty in paying attention?!

Ayen shom
Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Problem kids 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    12/6/1999 9:07 AM


In a message dated 12/6/99 8:43:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
BDCOHEN613@aol.com writes:

<< And as for any link between ADD and children straying from derech haemet, 
 that is just too absurd for words. >>

Not so far fetched if the child in question is not diagnosed properly, and 
all he hears is he is "lazy," "bad" "irresponsible" etc. I would not want to 
be part of the school or community or family that treated me that way either.

Jordan 

See RSR Hirsch re: yitzchok and Eisav!

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Problem kids 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    12/6/1999 5:12 AM


I think it's in the perek Arvei Pesachim in the gemara where Rav had a 
son who was *nisht togedacht* not too successful in learning so he had 
him learn a trade and go into business.

The problem isn't new.

IF everything works out, our research team may have a solution for the ADDH 
and learning disabled child and have him integrated into regular schools.

Josh

Q: Anyone have Torah/Drush on the connection between the word Mikketz and the 
words Vayikkatz all found in the first Aliyo?

Rich Wolpoe

Question: Does anyone discuss the case of saying Birka haroeh on neiros Beis 
Haskensses?

Also, re: Nieros Beis haknesses:  isther any hakpodo to have them burn for 30 
minutes?  And is that hakpodo a function of the brochoh?

Rich Wolpoe 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Obviously not every one agrees. The Brisker minhag is to make the beracha 
of she-asa nissim between the first and second candles so that one sees 
the first candle and it also counts as birchat haroeh.
I am told that Rav Lichtenstein paskened that a soldier who is in the 
field and has a family lighting for him should nevertheless say birchat 
ha-roeh if he happens to see a chanuka candle.

Eli Turkel

--- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> I wonder if the increase in number of troubled teens
> has something to do
> with the increased number of children with ADD or
> ADHD in the 1980s. Not
> that they're the same population, necessarily, but
> perhaps a common cause?
> 
> -mi

Definately!

My brother's oldest son, who is now approximately 40
years old, had ADD and was undiagnosed, mainly because
the diagnosis did not exist yet.  The result was that
overly indulgent parents through the pre-school years
turned into virtually abusive parents forcing long
periods of "homework".  From first grade on, my nephew
would spend almost all of his at home hours at the
dining room table in front of his books without a clue
as to what he was doing.  There were tutors of the
highest calibre and of not so high calibre who were
paid by his well meaning parents to try and get him to
study.  But, to no avail.  He just "wouldn't" learn!
My brothers frustration often turned to anger at his
son for not wanting to study and he was often punished
excessivly.  My nephew was finally kicked out of
school  after 7th grade for being disruptive, (being
the class clown and the like) and for failing in his
class work.  He ended up in a series of yeshivos and
public high school,  from eigth grade on. Of course
Public High school couldn't handle him either so he
finally "graduated" from a specialized public school
for "problem" students.

His lack of envolvement in the Frum community, which
totally ostracized him, caused him to totally abandon
Torah Judaism.  His ego was almost non-exixstant and
had almost no self esteem by the time he was 18 years
old. 

Fortunately this is not the end of the story. 

He finally left Chicago to move to Israel, to try and
start life afresh.  He bounced around from one job to
another until his antisocial behavior caused him to be
rejected by almost all of society, frum and not frum. 

He had no place to live.  My father, (his grandfather)
lived in Bnei Brak and my nephew, a broken young man
of about 20, asked if he could live there a while
until he could figure out what to do with the rest of
his life. He was introduced (by my cousin who learns
in the Chazon Ish Kollel in Bnei Brak)  to "Marbeh
Torah", a Baal Teshuva institution, run by the Cahzon
Ish people.

Fast forward to today.  He is a Torah observant Jew
living in Monsey, married, beloved by his community,
and working in Hashagacha for the OU.

Moral of the Story?  There must be hundreds if not
thousands of at risk children whose learning
disabilities went undiagnosed in the pre ADD era. 

Not all of them had a happy ending. 

Today we must not be afraid to quickly, at the
earliest age, diagnose children with disorders of this
type so they can be helped by caring proffesionals
and, be spared, at best, a lifetime of frustration and
agony, and at worst, a lifetime of depraved existance,
turning to drugs, illicit sex or worse.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

I'd like to open a new Avodas Hashem discussion. What should be done when
a minyan has been scheduled, but fewer than a minyan have shown up?

This will happen more frequently or less frequently, depending on the
nature of the community, but it might be in a yeshiva, a shul, or a shiva
home, at either shacharis, mincha or maariv. Sometimes they might be only
one short of a minyan, or it might be several. In some situations one can
simply step outside and try to flag down a passer-by.

But more often, there is a suggestion to target a specific individual who
lives nearby, and either phone him, or send a messenger to his home to
ask him to help out. My feeling has been to oppose this; in most cases it
seems to be a "yotzay s'charo b'hefsedo", where we lose a lot in the
"bein adam l'chaveiro" department, for very small gains in "bein adam
l'makom".

First I will describe some of the unfortunate things which can result
from doing this. Not all will happen in every case, but some certainly
will.

Sometimes, the very act of singling out a person seems to suggest that
whatever he is doing right now, it is less important than helping to make
the minyan. Depending on the person, it might imply that he is negligent
in his davening. These are certainly accusations which we should avoid
making.

When we make the phone call, or go to his house, we are putting him in a
very difficult situation. He might have already davened, or be planning
on a later minyan, and we are asking him to interrupt his current
activity. Whatever that activity might be, it will be either less
important than making the minyan, or more important than making the
minyan. Not that we outsiders are qualified to make that determination,
of course. Anyway, if we pull him away from something more important than
minyan, then we  are wrong. And if it was not so important, then he may
be embarrassed that he had not come to shul to begin with, and we are
again wrong. It is also possible that he simply did not realize that the
minyan was lacking, which is a legitimate explanation, but depending on
which thoughtless words are exchanged when he arrives, he could be quite
embarrassed anyway.

The people who live close to the minyan tend to be called upon for this
great mitzvah unduly frequently, and a certain amount of resentment can
build up sometimes.

The people who arrived promptly may have plans for afterward. At
shacharis they have to go to work, by mincha they are forced to wait past
shkia. These people who did try to daven with a minyan are now asked to
wait until it's so late that they've given up on latecomers, and then to
continue waiting, while they contact the neighbors, and then wait for
*them* to arrive. These people who have other plans are forced to wait
around, for the sake of the others who still hope for a minyan.

If eight or fewer have arrived, so that two or more people are needed for
the minyan, things are even trickier. If we trouble a ninth person to
join us, but are unable to get a tenth, what can we say to him? We thank
him for the attempt, but when *we* are that ninth person, feelings do get
hurt.

Even worse, sometimes an unexpected tenth man can arrive, and the minyan
will begin without the person who was called. When he arrives later,
sparks may fly, depending how what he was doing that he was pulled away
from.

All this for what?

Yes, sometimes these efforts are fruitful, and a genuine minyan can daven
together. But too often the efforts are fruitless, and a tenth man cannot
be found. Even when a tenth does arrive, if he has already davened, then
according to (most?/all?) opinions, the davening does not constitute
tefillah betzibur, despite the ability to say Barchu, Kedusha, Kaddish...
Even if someone is in avelus and wants/needs to say kaddish, I really
doubt if it is worth the ill will and resentment which results. Not to
mention the violated zmanim if Mincha is at stake.

One solution I've seen is to have a list of volunteers who do not mind
being asked to come, but that solves only some parts of this problem.

Another solution would be to live in a large community which always has
large minyanim. But even in such communities, these scenarios can occur
in shiva homes.

What do other people think? I'd like to see a community ban the practice
of calling for a tenth man, and establish a fixed amount of time for
waiting -- say, 5 or 10 minutes. If the minyan has not arrived by then,
all should daven by themselves, and no one will be embarrassed, neither
by saying, "I am unable to be the tenth", nor by saying "I can't wait any
longer".

I will close with the story of one gentleman in my community, who chose
not to be shliach tzibur even when he was in avelus. He felt that his
davening from the amud would be a very meager z'chus for his father, and
it would be a greater z'chus to have a more capable person lead the
davening. He said, "When my father died, I became a yasom, not a chazan."

Akiva Miller

..
___________________________________________________________________
Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
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I think that if you say it in English (or whatever language the avel
speaks) he or she will understand the basic intent.

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
<daniel@cfd.ame.arizona.edu>
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ

*********************


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