Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 159

Wednesday, December 1 1999

• re: expenses / Israel
• Re: Avodah V4 #158
• Re: Tzelem Elokim and Women
• Re: Avodah V4 #106: Mincha Minyanim in Yerushalayim.
• Re: Brave New World or Retroactive Fatherhood
• Re: GEULAH and Xtians
• HaMakom Yinacheim
• Re: HaMakom Yinacheim
• Re: HaMakom Yinacheim
• Re: HaMakom Yinacheim
• Isaac's blessings
• Youths At Risk
• Re: Avodah V4 #124
• Re: Avodah V4 #124: Kol Kevudah - a new twist
• Re: Bechora
• Re: brain Death
• Re: Birthrights and their value
• Yeshiva University and German Neo-Orthodoxy
• Re: Avodah V4 #124: Kol Kevudah - a new twist
• Re: Hasidei Ashkenaz
• Re: Tzelem Elokim and Women
• Nit about Lashon Hara
• Frimer
• Re yoatzot.

--- Shlomo Godick <shlomog@mehish.co.il> wrote:
> Eli Turkel  wrote:
> 
  I do not know
> how much post-high-school "seminar" for girls costs.

That's an easy one.

Most seminar education for girls (at least for
American programs) is in excess of $10,000. per year,
with absolutely no discounts or scholarships
available.

All three of my daughters went on such programs. My
youngest went to Michlala only a year and a half ago.

HM
__________________________________________________
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> As I recall, the Tosfos R' Yehuda ha-Chassid printed in the Bracha
> Meshuleshes on Maseches Berachos is not R' Yehuda ha-Chassid of
> Chasidei Ashkenaz, but R' Yehuda Sir Leone of Paris. If anyone with
> access to Urbach's Baalei ha-Tosfos can check this out I'd
> appreciate it.

This is correct (as per Urbach).
David Eisenman

In a message dated 11/30/99 6:48:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

> Rabosai, let's not engage in apologetics and misreadings.  It is true the 
the 
>  Gemara,  as well as Rishonim and Achronim, learn the pasuk differently.  
But 
>  the Abravanel learned it this way! 

I think I misunderstood your initial point. Your initial language sounded 
like "What do we do with this Pasuk?" Now, though, it sounds as though your 
question is "What do we do with this Abravanel?" Is this what you mean?

Mordechai
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf
Congregation Ohave Shalom, Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave

> There are scads of minchah minyanim in office buildings in and around
> Yerushalayim. We have two in ours, complete with a mini-mishnah shei'ur
and
> an occasional "kiddush" (what do you call a "kiddush" during the week,
when
> there is no kiddush?)

In Chabad circles it would be called a "farbrengen"-  no need to restrict
such a wonderful institution to Chabad circles in my opinion. (alcohol
b'shiur!) - leads to good, hearty ahavas Israel.
Mrs. G. Atwood.

--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:

> I am not sure this case would differ substanially
> from any in-vitro
> procedure. I wonder what the psak is by any IVF re
> yibum. My guess is that
> chalitza is indeed, required, l'chumra.


This brings up a question of B'eilas Znus as it
relates to Mamzerus. I.e. Is a mamzer created thru the
act of Be'ah, or is it the Yichus which creates the
Mamzer. 

Example:  the in vitro fertilization of an Aishes Ish
by someone other than her husband: Is the progeny a
Mamzer?

If I am not mistaken, R. Moshe Paskins that the vlad
is NOT a mamzer in such cases and it is permissible to
fertilize a mother even with the sperm of her own
father.  

If this is so, then it should answer the question
about the sperm of a corpse vis a vis Yivum. The
resultant child should not be considered a fufilment
of Hakamas Zera Achicha through which Yivum would be
obviated.  Instead the Chiuv of either Yivum or
Chalitza would still be extant.

HM
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--- richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> 
> I do NOT fear this brand of Xtian Messianism
> because I believe it will 
> be mevarer the emes and dovetails nicely with the
> Rambam's point re: Xtian 
> believe as only a precursor to the belief in the
> Emesdik Moshiach.  So in THAT 
> sense I welcome their assistance.
> 
> Maybe I'm a bit naive or merely confident that in
> the end it will come out 
> alright...

I don't think you are kniave at all.  This has been
more or less my point all along.

HM
__________________________________________________
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I was just informed that our chaveir Aryeh Frimer lost his son Yaakov after
a lengthy bout with cancer. The levayah will be arranged once the body returns
to Israel.

I agree with the sentiment of the person who emailed me the news: No one should
know such pain.

HaMakom yinacheim oso bisoch sha'ar avlei Tzion viYerushlayim.

-mi

This triggered me to wonder if we could somehow dedicate digests in memory of 
chaverim or their krovim?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: HaMakom Yinacheim 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    11/30/1999 9:51 AM


I was just informed that our chaveir Aryeh Frimer lost his son Yaakov after
a lengthy bout with cancer. The levayah will be arranged once the body returns 
to Israel.

I agree with the sentiment of the person who emailed me the news: No one should 
know such pain.

HaMakom yinacheim oso bisoch sha'ar avlei Tzion viYerushlayim.

-mi

To the entire Frimer Family:

My heartfelt condolences.

HaMakom Yinacheim Eschem Bisoch Sha'ar Avelei Tzion
ViYerushlayim.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

Micha Berger informed us:


> I was just informed that our chaveir Aryeh Frimer lost his son Yaakov



 HaMakom yinachem oto betoch sha'ar avlei Tzion viYerushlayim.



---sam

Would anyone out there care to comment on the following
question that occurred to me on Shabbat.  

In parashat Toldot, Isaac gave a blessing to one of his sons that
said that that son would be the lord of his brother and that the
children of his mother would bow down to him.  In parashat 
Vayishlach we see that the brother who was called "lord" by the 
other brother and the one to whom the other brother bowed down 
was none other than Esau, the brother to whom Isaac thought that 
he was giving the blessing when Jacob was standing next to him 
pretending to be Esau.  Moreover, the narrative of the Torah 
makes it clear that the only reason why Jacob felt compelled to 
show such deference to Esau was that he wanted to assuage 
Esau's anger at him for having "taken" the blessing from Isaac that 
had been intended for Esau.  So we have hear a kind of Oedipus 
effect in which the blessing/prophecy becomes the instrument that 
brings about its own realization (negation?).

A related question.  When the Torah records the death of Isaac, it 
is written that Esau and Jacob buried him, giving priority to Esau 
over Jacob.  What are we to make of this?  At the death of 
Abraham, the order is Isaac and Ishmael.  That priority is taken to 
indicate that Ishmael willingly showed deference to Isaac, which is
taken as a praiseworthy gesture on Ishmael's part and evidence of 
his righteousness.  Presumably Esau showed Jacob no such 
deference and he merits no praise.  Still the fact is that at least in 
their lifetimes, notwithstanding(?) Isaac's blessing, it was Jacob 
who deferred to Esau not the other way around.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               !
!
!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  

Kudos to the Jewish Observer for their most recent issue dedicated to the 
topic of teenage dropouts.  If any of you have not yet seen it then try to 
get a copy.  It contains a lot of practical advice about raising children 
today and helping out other people's children.

>
> But at our table it's singing. Each guest has to name a favorite zemer and
> teach me the tune. Unfortunately, yes, this does leave the women out, and
> I've yet to find a solution to that. Suggestions welcome as to how to
> include them.
>
>> ---sam

When the men leave for ma'ariv, the women get a chance to share songs.
Otherwise we can all share divrei Torah and we can hum quietly....  Mrs GA
>

> >
> A new twist on Kol Kevudah etc... the Ba"Datz of the Eidah Hareidit (one
of
> about half-dozen or so different and competing Ba"Datzim we have here)
> issued a ps'ak today that women are forebidden from using cell phones in
> public.  According to a radio interview with Yehuda Meshi-Zahav, the
> self-styled(?) "Ka"MBatz (KeTzin MivTza'im or operations officer) the
> reason given was that speaking on a cell phone in public, particularly
when
> it can be heard by others (there is a tendency to to speak louder on cell
> phones when doing so on noisy streets), was at variance with the concept
of
> tzi'ut as exemplified in "Kol Kevudah etc..." (I am not making this up --
I
> heard the interview myself and my Hebrew is quite good; I believe it also
> appeared in one of the hariedi papers).
>
> Needless to say, the general press and media have had a field day with
this
> one.
>
> hg
>
please keep scrolling!
>
.............................................................................
>                              Hershel Ginsburg, Ph.D.
>               Licensed Patent Attorney and Biotechnology Consultant
>                           P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27
>                                   Efrat, 90435
>                                     Israel
>               Phone: 972-2-993-8134        FAX: 972-2-993-8122
>                          e-mail: ginzy@netvision.net.il
>
.............................................................................
>
> Sorry, but I can hear it.  Literally. Many times on the buses I've had
someone's conversation imposed on me from the seat behind.  I try to make a
point of talking relatively quietly if I get a call in a bus, or go to some
quiet lobby or similar corner.
I'd ask the men to do the same if it's a prolonged call because they often
project more.
Same goes for loud conversations generally-  partly from the point of view
of tznius, but more from the point of view of public nuisance.     Mrs. G.
Atwood.
>

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.

----- Original Message -----
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 3:03 AM
Subject: Bechora


> From: "Daniel B. Schwartz" <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> Subject: Birthrights and their value
>
> <<As I was following the leining this past Shabbat I was troubled by the
> sale of Esau's birthright to Jacob.  The Torah points out that Esau
> "spurned" or "descrated" his birthright.  I have two questions about
> this:>>
>
> One of the meforshim explains that there was a bona fide sale.  If you
> read the pesukim,  it says that Esav sold the bechora,  then it says that
> Yaakov  *gave*  Esav bread and soup.   The diyuk is that this was the
> reason for the sale,  not the price.
>
> <<2.    Why is the desecration of the birthright ascribed only to Esau,
> who
> sold it for a pittance?  After all, the text does not say that Jacob had
> previously offered to purchase it.  Why is Jacob not culpable for
> offering
> so very little for the birthright?>>
>
> Should he have been negotiating the price upwards?
>
> Gershon

We learned from Rabbi Pinchas Winston the other day that it's significant
that the Torah states meforash that Esav scorned the bechora AFTER he'd
eaten.  If not, you could say he was under duress, and was forced to make a
sale in this state. He was fainting with hunger- at that point he attached
real significance to the lentil stew than to more abstract long term
concepts.  After he'd eaten he showed his real attitude towards the bechora-
bizayon.  He simply didn't care about negotiating.   Mrs. G. Atwood.
>

> So I am not quite sure what Journal this case was reported in, and
> apparently the medical community was not that stunned by anything in
> September 1998.  I also truly hope that there are no doctors who would
> rely solely on a flat EEG to diagnose death, which would be grossly
> irresponsble, and a mistake that as far as I know, is not very common in
> the medical community, if it even occurs at all.
>
> Shaul Weinreb
>
I know someone who possesses his own death certificate.  Years ago he
suffered a medical crisis that gave him a flat EEG.  (I stress years ago-
EEG equipment was probably less sensitive in this case)  At this point the
doc wrote the certificate, but the man was actually aware.  By a great
effort of will he managed to move part of his body.
Sounds crazy, but I didn't read it in the National Enquirer but heard it
from the daughter of the person in question.    Mrs. G.A. >

>
>    1.    It can be assumed that Isaac was a man of some means.  After all,
> he did inheret his father, Abraham's, estate, which the Torah says was
> considerable.  How then could Easu have been willing to sell his right to
> primogeniture (which in Halahik terms is "pi shenayim" or two thirds of
the
> estate, or at common law, the entire estate") for a pot of gruel?

This is before Matan Torah-  the "pi shnayim" rule had not been stipulated
yet.  More signicantly, the ritual aspects of the bechora had not been
transferred to the Levi yet. One could argue that the bechor would be
landless,  all his privileges would be spiritual- learning, avoda etc. In
this situation he'd NEED a bracha for some degree of material benefit. This
is not exactly Esav's lifestyle.  Why was he upset? Simply because he'd been
tricked at his own game.  He knew he should have told his father that Yaakov
was due the bracha of the bechor, but he didn't speak up. He blamed Yaakov
for his own duplicity. Typical psychological projection.    Mrs. G. Atwood.

I am a new member of the list and apologise to everyone if my contribution
has been ventilated in earlier issues.
I wonder whether anyone has yet had an opportunity to peruse Aaron
Rakeffet-Rothkopp's book on Rabbi Soloveitchik (The Rav: The World of Rabbi
Joseph B. Soloveitchik, Ktav, 1999, 2 volumes)? There is enough material in
it to keep Avodah busy for a long time.
One of the passages that interested me is at pages 225 - 234 of the second
volume, where the Rav contrasts the ethos of Yeshiva University with German
Neo-Orthodoxy. In summary, he contends that Rabbi Hirsch set as his goal the
training of German Jews who would be pious and at the same time have
universal understanding. He praises their rabbis for their piety and
observance as well as being zealous in safeguarding the Orthodox character
of their synagogues. There were also many academics and professionals who
were punctilious in conforming to the Shulchan Aruch. One such person
mentioned by the Rav was Eugen Mittwoch who was a professor of Oriental
Languages at the University of Berlin and one of his teachers. He came to
the university on Tishah be-Av in slippers and with a three-week beard which
the Rav rightly explains as evidence of a deep commitment to Judaism.
Professor Mittwoch was simply one of thousands of such committed and G-d
fearing Jews. I cannot recall the source of the observation but it may have
been the Sridei Eish who noted that German Orthodoxy was even more medakdek
bemitzvot than Eastern European Orthodoxy - I may have seen it in one of the
issues of the Torah Umadda Journal.
Nevertheless, in the Rav's opinion German Jews lacked the knowledge of
Torah; the rabbis only knew a small part of the Shulchan Aruch and the Bible
and had but some slight knowledge of how to decide Halacha. They excelled in
their external deportment and their synagogues were graced with an aura of
dignity. Whilst this may be something of an exaggeration, it is worth noting
that one of the outstanding exponents of German Orthodoxy, Dayan Dr Isadore
Grunfeld made essentially the same point over 40 years ago in his gem of a
book, Three Generations: The Influence of Samson Raphael Hirsch on Jewish
Life and Thought (London, Jewish Post Publications, 1958) when he observed
(at p 20) that "compared with the alumni of the great yeshivoth of eastern
Europe the disciples of Hirsch, apart from a few exceptions, were not
outstanding Talmudical scholars".
In contrast, the aim of Yeshiva University is to stress the importance of
the study of Torah and to educate Torah scholars with secular knowledge; to
produce alumni who, whether they are rabbis, merchants, lawyers or doctors,
are talmidei chachamim.
Whilst there were/ are many from Eastern Europe who would belittle German
Orthodoxy, in many cases this was based at least in part on a negative
approach to general culture and secular learning. Obviously the Rav did not
share that outlook and for that reason (as well as the fact that whatever he
said should command our highest regard) his comments are thought provoking.
Perhaps it is true that the reason that German Orthodoxy (and for that
matter Oberlander Orthodoxy), which should continue to have so much
relevance today is in decline, is because of its failure after the war to
rebuild yeshivot, but perceptive observers have noted that even before the
war there was a trend developing amongst some of the best of German Orthodox
youth to study in the great Lithuanian yeshivot - the Schwabs are one of the
best examples and this, despite the fact that Frankfurt in the 1920s had
three yeshivot of its own: Breuer's, Schneider's and Hoffman's.
One of the badges of the Haskalah (I think it was Gordon) was to be a Jew at
home and a member of general society outside (it sounds better in Hebrew -
yehudi beveitecha v'adam betzeitecha). Should we aspire to be a (Brisker)
Litvak in the beit midrash, a (Frankfurter) Yekke in the beit knesset and a
(Pressburger) Oberlander in the rest of our lives?

If speaking on a cell phone in public is sinful because it is irritating, 
obnoxious, or loud, then how much more sinful is it to use a cell phone while 
driving in traffic? As a motorcyclist, I deeply fear people who do this, but 
I can't always avoid them. 

I have heard cell phones ring at Yom Kippur services, at Shabbos dinners, and 
at funerals. Evidently some believe that if one turns on a cell phone before 
Shabbos or Yuntuf, the phone can be carried (within an Eruv) with its power 
on all day, just like turning lights on before sundown. Is there any 
authority against this? Better yet, is there any authority against the use of 
cell phones altogether, except in case of emergencies (or rabbis keeping 
touch with their congregants)?

David Finch

Dr Josh Backon <BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il> writes in v4n158:
:                                                        Thus, the two groups
: seemed to be at opposite sides: one, ascetic and pietistic; the other more
: "litvish" :-)

This is what I find most interesting as a lurker to this conversation. Whether
or not the two strains of piestic vs halachah-only are a natural dialectic
in the halachic community, always to emerge and re-emerge.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 30-Nov-99: Shelishi, Vayeshev
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 76b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

R' Mordechai Torczyner <Pawshas@aol.com> writes in v4n157:
:                                                             The Gemara asks 
: about the apparent contradiction of "Zachar UNekeivah Beraam" and "beTzelem 
: Elokim Bara Oso" and concludes  that HaShem initially intended to create Adam 
: and Chavah as separate beings (Beraam), and then HaShem decided to create 
: them as one (Oso). 

: Implicitly, then, the Gemara is saying that both Adam and Chavah are created 
: beTzelem Elokim.

Actually, it implies that Adam + Chavah, i.e. a married couple, equal a single
tzelem E-lokim.

Mark Dratch <MSDratch@aol.com> writes in v4n158:
: Gemara,  as well as Rishonim and Achronim, learn the pasuk differently.  But 
: the Abravanel learned it this way!  What has influenced so many of us on such 
: a visceral level be so discomfited by this statement so as to reject or 
: reinterpret the Abravanel's position?

I would say that the Abravanel's derech is a valid derech. IOW, one could
reach one's tachlis in life using a model that contains a definition of
"tzelem E-lokim" that excludes women. However, the derech isn't usable by
any of us. HKBH put our souls (i.e. us) in a generation where such an idea
generates a visceral rejection for a reason. I believe that reason is that
for our neshamos, this derech is not the ideal one.

(I tried to imply this in an earlier post of mine on this subject.)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 30-Nov-99: Shelishi, Vayeshev
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 76b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

David Finch <DFinchPC@aol.com> writes in v4n157:
: XYZ is no more capable of lashon hara than I am of running a four-minute 
: mile. In fact, given its untruthfulness, it's lashon hara to accuse XYZ of 
: lashon hara.

Well, to be exact, given that something is an untruth, it would be motzi sheim
ra, not lashon hara to accuse someone of it.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 30-Nov-99: Shelishi, Vayeshev
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 76b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

   The funeral for Yaakov Frimer is scheduled for wednesday about 5pm Israel time in
Bet Shemesh.

My guess is that Yaakov was about 24 years old and is survived by a wife and and
twin children about 2 years old in addition to his parents and sisters.
We had all being praying for his recovery from cancer but I guess that G-d decided
otherwise.
I cannot begin to imagine the pain the parents and the rest of the family are in.
I assume that Aryeh will be sitting shivah in his home in Rechovot.
We hope that they will be somehow comforted among the mourners of Zion and know no
more pain.

Eli Turkel

I do hope I'm not bothering anyone by referring to old threads.  You don't
have to take it as an invitation to resume the threads, but just a point
made.  I

Perhaps Chana & Janet would enjoy this one: Last night, during "question
time" of our halacha shiur, with Rabbi Elazar Barclay-  (thoroughly "RW"
English Litvish Rav-  we consult him on many shailas) -  several women had
tznius questions on various garments. They were trying to describe the
details verbally until Rabbi B. told them  "take the garments to Rebbetzin
Weber. She will pasken for you. "  Those very words.

Mrs. G. Atwood.

*********************


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