Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 158

Tuesday, November 30 1999

• Re: Avodah V4 #148 Consumption
• RE: Avodah V4 #148 Consumption
• re: expenses / Israel
• RE: expenses / Israel
• Re: Hasidei Ashkenaz
• Re: expenses / Israel
• Re: Tzelem Elokim and Women
• Re: Avodah V4 #157
• Re: Brave New World or Retroactive Fatherhood
• Re: Hasidei Ashkenaz
• Re: Hasidei Ashkenaz
• Hasidei Ashkenaz
• Re: hadassim at kiddush
• Re: Hasidei Ashkenaz
• R' Yehuda Hachassid
• Re: Hasidei Ashkenaz
• GEULAH and Xtians
• Re: Hasidei Ashkenaz
• Re: GEULAH and Xtians
• Re: GEULAH and Xtians
• GEULAH and Xtians, Moshiach v. Messiah
• Re:Consumption

In a message dated 11/28/99 4:49:11 PM US Central Standard Time, 
syaffe@juno.com writes:

<< The Ramban holds that Kadeish Atzmechah Bemutar Loch is a Mitzvah which
 means that we siply not consume or possess luxuries just for the sake of
 enjoying them for the pleasure of the body or the eye etc.
 How we draw the line between "neccesary and leshaim ta'avah is something
 I would very much like to hear from avodah members about. >>

How can anything be a "luxury" *unless* it is consumed or possessed for the 
enjoyment of the body or eye? If not taken for this purpose, then it is not a 
luxury. One possible exception: One buys a very high-priced version of a 
necessary object (i.e., tefillin) because it is exceedingly well-made and 
will last a long time. But even then, to describe the tefillin as "luxurious" 
is misleading. Everyday car mechanics sink a lot of money into expensive 
tools (Snap-Ons, etc.) because they the tools will last a long time. I don't 
think the mechanics think of their purchases as luxuries, or even as 
"investments" (an obnoxious term), but simply as the manifestations of common 
sense.

So, can anything that flows from common sense be a "luxury," as the Ramban 
understood the term? Is there really a conflict here?

David Finch

> How we draw the line between "neccesary and leshaim ta'avah
> is something
> I would very much like to hear from avodah members about.

Do you *need* that item. If not, it's a luxury.

$2000 Tefillin would be a luxury, since you can meet all halachic
requirements for less.

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

Eli Turkel  wrote:

<<High school is either free for state schools or most haredi yeshivot
while Bnei Akivah is about $3000 including dormitory.  >>

Most haredi yeshivot I know of (high school and post-high-school) 
collect $130-140 per month tuition (including dormitory).
Private elementary school ("cheder") in the haredi community runs
about $50 per child per month (with slight discounts for more than 
one child).  I should add that the above relates to the Litvishe 
community and I have no idea if the figures for the Chassidishe 
community are different.

Elementary and high school education for girls is free.  I do not know
how much post-high-school "seminar" for girls costs.

That is still quite an order of magnitude less than tuition in the U.S.

Kol tuv,
Shlomo Godick

> Elementary and high school education for girls is free.  I do not know
> how much post-high-school "seminar" for girls costs.
> 

High school for girls also runs around $100/month.

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood                 
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274  

While I did post the reference showing that R. Yehuda Hechasid was quoted
in Tosaphot, Rabbenu tam (Sefer HaYashar p. 108) [which predated the era
of RYH by at least 1 generation] didn't exactly take favorably to the
opinions of the Chasidei Ashkenaz. To complicate matters: there was a group
called the PERUSHIM approximately 2 generations prior to the era of Rabbenu
Tam where the fathers would have their Bechor dedicate his entire life to
Torah study (and this was in Tzarfat, not Ashkenaz !). Thus, the two groups
seemed to be at opposite sides: one, ascetic and pietistic; the other more
"litvish" :-)

Josh

In a message dated 11/29/99 3:22:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
shlomog@mehish.co.il writes:

<< 
 Most haredi yeshivot I know of (high school and post-high-school) 
 collect $130-140 per month tuition (including dormitory).
 Private elementary school ("cheder") in the haredi community runs
 about $50 per child per month (with slight discounts for more than 
 one child).  I should add that the above relates to the Litvishe 
 community and I have no idea if the figures for the Chassidishe 
 community are different.
 
 Elementary and high school education for girls is free.  I do not know
 how much post-high-school "seminar" for girls costs.
 
 That is still quite an order of magnitude less than tuition in the U.S.
 
 Kol tuv,
 Shlomo Godick
  >>
It's interesting how our discussions always come full circle.  Are these 
lower costs in Israel due to relatively lower input costs (labor-teachers? 
Capital-buildings? ) or leverage (higher student teacher ratios?) or outside 
subsidies(Askanim? the State?). What are the societal implications of such?  
It may be positively cultural differences allow the same educational result 
with fewer teachers) or negatively throw out troublemakers early on) but LA'D 
there must be some reasons for the difference and it would be interesting to 
identify the resource tradeoffs that are made, if any, and understand this 
prioritization lfi halacha.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

Rabosai, let's not engage in apologetics and misreadings.  It is true the the 
Gemara,  as well as Rishonim and Achronim, learn the pasuk differently.  But 
the Abravanel learned it this way!  What has influenced so many of us on such 
a visceral level be so discomfited by this statement so as to reject or 
reinterpret the Abravanel's position?  Would anybody on this list defend it 
in its literal sense?  And what implications does this have in other areas of 
hashkafah, or even halakhah?

Mark Dratch


<< I don't have access to an Abravanel here, so I'll take it as you cite 
it,but the Gemara in Eruvin (18a) doesn't read the Pasuk that way. The Gemara 
asks 
 about the apparent contradiction of "Zachar UNekeivah Beraam" and "beTzelem 
 Elokim Bara Oso" and concludes  that HaShem initially intended to create 
Adam 
 and Chavah as separate beings (Beraam), and then HaShem decided to create 
 them as one (Oso). 
 
 Implicitly, then, the Gemara is saying that both Adam and Chavah are created 
 beTzelem Elokim >>

At 09:34 PM 11/28/99 -0600, Rav Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
>Sorry, this I understand quite well, now, and reject. If, as R' Josh Backon
>noted, R' Yehuda He'Chasid is quoted in Tosafos, and, to boot, their is a
>Tos. RYhC on Berachos, 

As I recall, the Tosfos R' Yehuda ha-Chassid printed in the Bracha Meshuleshes on Maseches Berachos is not R' Yehuda ha-Chassid of Chasidei AShkenaz, but R' Yehuda Sir Leone of Paris. If anyone with access to Urbach's Baalei ha-Tosfos can check this out I'd appreciate it.

>one cannot esacape the conclusion that he was a
>member of the club.
Or maybe one could.


A Lichtige Chanukah, 
Daniel

I am not sure this case would differ substanially from any in-vitro
procedure. I wonder what the psak is by any IVF re yibum. My guess is that
chalitza is indeed, required, l'chumra.

As far as nivul ha'mes, it would seem that this is the  type of to'eles for
which it might be permitted, v'tzorich iyun!

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Hershel Ginsburg <ginzy@netvision.net.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>

> a)  Is it permitted to obtain the dead man's sperm for the purposes
> outlined above or is it nivul hamet?
>
> b)  Assuming the dead man had a brother (I don't know if he did or did
> not), the moment he died, a connection of Yibum was established between
the
> dead man's brother and the widow.  This raises a few questions:
>
>     1. Is the widow permitted to become pregnant by her dead husband's
> sperm, before she has undergone Halitzah?
>
>     2.  If she does become pregnant, and assuming it is permitted, would
> that now obviate the need for Halitzah or Yibum? Is there still a
> possibility of Yibum?
>
>     3.  If she does become pregnant, and assuming it is **NOT** permitted,
> is the baby a Mamzer?
>
>     4.  If she does become pregnant, and again assuming it is **NOT**
> permitted, is there still an obligation of Halitzah or Yibum?  Is there
> still a possibility of Yibum?
>
> c)  Does the baby become his dead father's heir retroactively?
Prospectively?
>
> d)  If the dead father was a Cohen, is the baby a cohen if a boy or a
> bat-cohen if a girl?
>
> e)  Assuming the dead father was a Yisrael, and the baby is a boy, does he
> have the din of a B'chor?  (I guess this question presupposes that a boy
> conceived via in vitro fertilization or artificial insemination would have
> the din of a B'chor, irrespective of the source of the sperm).
>
> f)  Does the answer to any of the above questions change, the longer one
> waits from the time of death untill conception (by any means) using the
> dead man's sperm?
>
> g)  What would be the kid's name, i.e., plony-almony Ben who????
>
> h)  Assuming the dead man's sperm was used to impregnate several different
> women, would the resulting kids be considered siblings (halachicly)?
>
> These are the questions that I could thing of, off the top of my head. If
> anyone can think of other questions, please add them.  More importanly, if
> anyone can thing of any answers, please provide them!!
>
> hg

From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" 
> Sorry, this I understand quite well, now, and reject. If, as 
> R' Josh Backon
> noted, R' Yehuda He'Chasid is quoted in Tosafos, and, to 
> boot, their is a
> Tos. RYhC on Berachos, one cannot esacape the conclusion that he was a
> member of the club.

1. R. Yehuda Hechasid is quoted once in Tosafot.  I seem to recall either
Rambam or Rif being quoted in a Tosafot in Gittin.  Being quoted doesn't
make you one of the Ba'alei Tosafot.

2. I was not aware of a Tosafot RYhC on Berachot.  This would seem to
support your view, although Dr. S. might respond that the question is
whether it was written in the dialectic method of Tosafot.  To quote Dr. S.:
<<[T]his would indicate that alongside the great creative centers of Mainz,
Bonn, and Regensburg there existed a conservative circle, which while in no
way opposed to dialectic--indeed it could even break a dialectical lance if
need be--never really assimilated the achievements of the new pilpul or made
them part of its Halakhic Anschauung.>>

> > A separate issue, which I will deal with now, is Dr. 
> Soloveitchik's view
> of
> > the extent to which Hasidei Ashkenaz pietistic practices 
> were rejected by
> > other religious leaders of the time.  Again (in response to 
> a query how
> the
> > article may be obtained), the article is:
> >
> 
> Deleted. Not a single mareh makom? So, is this documented or Dr.
> Soloveitchik's "Chiddush"?

He has many footnotes (some quite long).  My excerpting was meant to induce
people to read the article.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

----- Original Message -----
From: Feldman, Mark <MFeldman@CM-P.COM>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: Hasidei Ashkenaz
> 1. R. Yehuda Hechasid is quoted once in Tosafot.  I seem to recall either
> Rambam or Rif being quoted in a Tosafot in Gittin.  Being quoted doesn't
> make you one of the Ba'alei Tosafot.
>

What does?

> 2. I was not aware of a Tosafot RYhC on Berachot.  This would seem to
> support your view, although Dr. S. might respond that the question is
> whether it was written in the dialectic method of Tosafot.  To quote Dr.
S.:
> <<[T]his would indicate that alongside the great creative centers of
Mainz,
> Bonn, and Regensburg there existed a conservative circle, which while in
no
> way opposed to dialectic--indeed it could even break a dialectical lance
if
> need be--never really assimilated the achievements of the new pilpul or
made
> them part of its Halakhic Anschauung.>>
>

It is, to the best of my understanding, resembling Tosafos like the Tosafos
Ha'Rosh does.

> He has many footnotes (some quite long).  My excerpting was meant to
induce
> people to read the article.
>


OK, but for those of us who do not have the essay, can we get one or two
convincing citations in accessible Rishonim? Thanks.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

Now that you jog my memory, I seem to recall that Dr. Soloveitchik,
in his class on Rishonim, did note that Tosafot R.Y. Hechasid printed
in Bracha Meshuleshet is in fact R. Yehuda Sir Leone.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

--- yolkut@ymail.yu.edu wrote:
> At 09:34 PM 11/28/99 -0600, Rav Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
> >Sorry, this I understand quite well, now, and reject. If, as R'
> Josh Backon
> >noted, R' Yehuda He'Chasid is quoted in Tosafos, and, to boot,
> their is a
> >Tos. RYhC on Berachos, 
> 
> As I recall, the Tosfos R' Yehuda ha-Chassid printed in the Bracha
> Meshuleshes on Maseches Berachos is not R' Yehuda ha-Chassid of
> Chasidei AShkenaz, but R' Yehuda Sir Leone of Paris. If anyone with
> access to Urbach's Baalei ha-Tosfos can check this out I'd
> appreciate it.
> 
> >one cannot esacape the conclusion that he was a
> >member of the club.
> Or maybe one could.
> 
> 
> A Lichtige Chanukah, 
> Daniel
> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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R. Yoseif Weiss smelled/smells something (perhaps haddasim or other besommim my 
memory is vague) at kiddush Friday night

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: hadassim at kiddush 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    11/24/1999 11:15 PM


R' david riceman asks, "Does anyone smell hadassim 
during kiddush nowadays?"
Yes.  This minhag still exists in many Chassidic circles, I have seen it by 
several rebbes - if I am not mistaken I have seen it by the Bostoner Rebbe 
shlita.  I think it still exists by some sefardim as well, matbe some of our 
sephardic listmembers could fill us in on this?
Shaul Weinreb

I checked the Shem ha'Gedolim.

The Chida is unsure whether R' Yehuda of Paris is one and the same with R'
Yehuda He'Chasid or not.
He notes that R' Yehuda He'Chasid was a talmid of the Ri Ha'Zaken Ba'al
Ha'Tosafos. Well, then if he was not a "Ba'al Ha'Tosafos" then he was of the
same Beis Medrash, and the distinction is hair-splitting. The Chida is
inclined to the Tos RYhC being indeed the Tos RYhC.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 10:46 AM
Subject: Hasidei Ashkenaz


> Now that you jog my memory, I seem to recall that Dr. Soloveitchik,
> in his class on Rishonim, did note that Tosafot R.Y. Hechasid printed
> in Bracha Meshuleshet is in fact R. Yehuda Sir Leone.
>
> Kol tuv,
> Moshe

I believe the "Rebbe Yehuda Hachassid" on Berachos was not authored by
Rabbi Yehuda Hachassid but by Rabbi Yehuda MiParis (or as some would call
him - R' Yehuda MiSir Leon).

Rabbi Dov Weiss

-- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> I checked the Shem ha'Gedolim.
> 
> The Chida is unsure whether R' Yehuda of Paris is one and the same
> with R'
> Yehuda He'Chasid or not.
> He notes that R' Yehuda He'Chasid was a talmid of the Ri Ha'Zaken
> Ba'al
> Ha'Tosafos. Well, then if he was not a "Ba'al Ha'Tosafos" then he
> was of the
> same Beis Medrash, and the distinction is hair-splitting. The Chida
> is
> inclined to the Tos RYhC being indeed the Tos RYhC.
> 

Somebody should check this out, but I know that RY of Paris was a
talmid of Ri HaZaken.  My guess is that since RY of Paris was
sometimes called RY HeChasid, that is why the Chida writes that RY
HeChasid was a talmid of Ri HaZaken.

Dr. S. does believe that Hasidei Ashkenaz were exposed to the
dialectic method of the Baalei Hatosafot.  The issue is not whether
Hasidei Ashkenaz learned in their batei midrash, but whether HA
adopted the dialectic method of the Baalei Hatosafot.  Dr. S. claims
that they did not.

Kol tuv,
Moshe
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

Just a brief clarifciation is in order.

Xtians hold that after milchemes ha meggido all the Jews will recognize 
"christ".

the word chrystos is simply Greek for Moshiach (correct me if I'm wrong 
Professor Feldman!)

Of course we WILL recofnize Moshiach at that point, but not J of Nazareth!

So IMHIO it's a matter of semantics

Xtians hold that at the final battle we will rconginze JC as THE savior.

We differ ESSENTIALLY in that we recognize THE savior as mochiach bu he ain't 
JC!

But the timing of recognizing moshiach is a common denominator and possibly the 
occupation of Israel by Jews is anothe common denominator.

The essential debate is that we hold that the recognition of JC as THE messiah 
is preamture.  And when the REAL Moshiach comes we will all be modeh.  

As such I do NOT fear this brand of Xtian Messianism because I believe it will 
be mevarer the emes and dovetails nicely with the Rambam's point re: Xtian 
believe as only a precursor to the belief in the Emesdik Moshiach.  So in THAT 
sense I welcome their assistance.

Maybe I'm a bit naive or merely confident that in the end it will come out 
alright...

Rich Wolpoe

----- Original Message -----
From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: Hasidei Ashkenaz


>
> Somebody should check this out, but I know that RY of Paris was a
> talmid of Ri HaZaken.  My guess is that since RY of Paris was
> sometimes called RY HeChasid, that is why the Chida writes that RY
> HeChasid was a talmid of Ri HaZaken.
>
> Dr. S. does believe that Hasidei Ashkenaz were exposed to the
> dialectic method of the Baalei Hatosafot.  The issue is not whether
> Hasidei Ashkenaz learned in their batei midrash, but whether HA
> adopted the dialectic method of the Baalei Hatosafot.  Dr. S. claims
> that they did not.
>

The Chida was intelligent enough not to be confused.

I cannot vouch for the rest of "Chasidei Ashkenaz" since I do not know to
whom we are referring, but the  Ra"avan and others seem to resemble and
follow the derech of Tosafos.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

In a message dated 11/29/99 4:48:30 PM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< 
 the word chrystos is simply Greek for Moshiach (correct me if I'm wrong 
 Professor Feldman!) >>

Chrystos (actually, "khristos") is a Greek noun derived from an adjective 
meaning "annointed." Later, in Latin, "christus" was originally used 
generically to refer to a divinely appointed high priest. So far as I know, 
"christ" as messiah is an English or old French invention.

(Much to my regret, I'm not Professor Feldman. I invite correction, however.)

David Finch

I haven't asked my father on this one, but I don't understand the
argument.  Moshiach means annointed one, and R.David Finch agrees
that khristos means one who is annointed.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

--- DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 11/29/99 4:48:30 PM US Central Standard Time, 
> richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:
> 
> << 
>  the word chrystos is simply Greek for Moshiach (correct me if I'm
> wrong 
>  Professor Feldman!) >>
> 
> Chrystos (actually, "khristos") is a Greek noun derived from an
> adjective 
> meaning "annointed." Later, in Latin, "christus" was originally
> used 
> generically to refer to a divinely appointed high priest. So far as
> I know, 
> "christ" as messiah is an English or old French invention.
> 
> (Much to my regret, I'm not Professor Feldman. I invite correction,
> however.)
> 
> David Finch
> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
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Moshiach might be annointed one (from "mashach," I take it), khristos might 
mean annointed one, but "messiah" comes from a different old Greek word that 
more or less meant savior or deliverer of the oppressed. Somewhere along the 
line the High Church authorities adopted the latter point of view.

I've always been utterly confused about the Mashiachist debate. So, a naive 
question: Do Mashiachists believe that the late Lubavitcher Rebbe is or is 
soon to become moshiach as that term is used purely within the context of the 
teachings of Chabad, or do they embrace a broader vision that more analogous 
to a "messiah," as non-Jewish (and some Jewish) believers understand the 
term?  

Someone please help me out. Thanks.

David Finch

--- shlomo yaffe <syaffe@juno.com> wrote:
> The Ramban holds that Kadeish Atzmechah Bemutar Loch
> is a Mitzvah which
> means that we siply not consume or possess luxuries
> just for the sake of
> enjoying them for the pleasure of the body or the
> eye etc.
> How we draw the line between "neccesary and leshaim
> ta'avah is something
> I would very much like to hear from avodah members
> about.
> SDY

Quick answer:

Taavah usually leads to tarbus ra.

"Necessary" is not necessarily the other side of the
coin.  Enjoyment does not mean only with minimum
necessariy requirements.  One can have more than the
minimum pleasure as long as it is not assur and in
some way is L' shem shomayim.  

Example: Taking as nice vacation, although somewhat
expensive, can give one the R&R that will enable one
to continue "working" at whatever one's tachlis in
life is at the best performance level.

HM

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